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Author Topic: The Bahama Experiment
Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-12-2006 02:48 PM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since Churches will never pay taxes I am curious to hear your opinion on this article Face?

Pressured By Predators, Lizards See Rapid Shift In Natural Selection

Eastern collard lizard.
by Staff Writers
Boston MA (SPX) Nov 17, 2006
Countering the widespread view of evolution as a process played out over the course of eons, evolutionary biologists have shown that natural selection can turn on a dime -- within months -- as a population's needs change. In a study of island lizards exposed to a new predator, the scientists found that natural selection dramatically changed direction over a very short time, within a single generation, favoring first longer and then shorter hind legs.

The findings, by Jonathan B. Losos of Harvard University and colleagues, are detailed this week in the journal Science. Losos did much of the work before joining Harvard earlier this year from Washington University in St. Louis.

"Because of its epochal scope, evolutionary biology is often caricatured as incompatible with controlled experimentation," says Losos, professor of organismic and evolutionary biology in Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences and curator in herpetology at the Harvard Museum of Comparative Zoology. "Recent work has shown, however, that evolutionary biology can be studied on short time scales and that predictions about it can be tested experimentally. We predicted, and then demonstrated, a reversal in the direction of natural selection acting on limb length in a population of lizards."

Losos and colleagues studied populations of the lizard Anolis sagrei on minuscule islands, or cays, in the Bahamas. They introduced to six of these cays a larger, predatory lizard (Leiocephalus carinatus) commonly found on nearby islands and known as a natural colonizer of small cays. The scientists kept six other control cays predator-free and exhaustively counted, marked, and measured lizards on all 12 isles.

Anolis sagrei spends much of its time on the ground, but previous research has shown that when a terrestrial predator is introduced, these lizards take to trees and shrubs, becoming increasingly arboreal over time. Losos and his colleagues hypothesized that immediately following a predator's arrival, longer-legged -- and hence faster-running -- Anolis lizards would be favored to elude capture. However, as the lizards grew ever more arboreal in habitat, the scientists projected that natural selection would begin to favor shorter limbs, which are better suited to navigating narrow branches and twigs.

Their hypothesis was borne out. Six months after the introduction of the predator, Losos found that the Anolis population had dropped by half or more on the islands with the predators, and in comparison to the lizards on the predator-free islands, long legs were more strongly favored: Survivors had longer legs relative to non-survivors. After another six months, during which time the Anolis lizards grew increasingly arboreal, selective pressures were exactly the opposite: Survivors were now characterized by having shorter legs on the experimental islands as compared to the control islands.

The behavioral shift from the ground to higher perches apparently caused this remarkable reversal, Losos says, adding that behavioral flexibility may often drive extremely rapid shifts in evolution.

"Evolutionary biology is by its nature an historical science, but the combination of microevolutionary experimentation and macroevolutionary historical analysis can provide a rich understanding about the genesis of biological diversity," the researchers write.

Source

This took the whole of six months to happen, according to you this should be impossible.

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Mr. K
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posted 12-12-2006 04:20 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Face's thoughts in this thread will be represented by a series of grunts and pictures of cartoon animals.

In other news, what is the lifespan of these lizards?

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Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-12-2006 05:15 PM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anolis sagrei- Sources vary of the maximum from 3 to 5 years although most say three years. 18 months seems to be the average lifespan though.
Source
Source

Leiocephalus carinatus - From what I can find since they are also called curly tailed lizards (or some in the same family are). 5 - 8 years seems to be the average for this family
Source

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Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-12-2006 05:20 PM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Although I have to say I personally do not agree with the methodology of gathering the data. It is concrete proof of evolution on one of it's most basic principals.
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Mr. K
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posted 12-13-2006 04:38 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe the more important question is, at what age do they become sexually mature?

At six months, it would seem the reason you'd see a certain type of lizard alive would have nothing to do with evolution (although it would be the first stage of natural selection).

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Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-13-2006 06:09 AM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most likely most of the prey were killed off quickly. Since the predator lizards probably didn't have to work too hard for their meals, I would not be suprised to see them kill a huge chunk of the population off quickly. Although I cannot find the actual study online yet I am curious to see how close to the reproductive cycle they did this, or considering the life span of these lizards perhaps they have more then one gestation period a year? Also it forced more of them to hid out in bush's and trees already changing their lifestyle so quickly, and their bodies started to follow suite. Will look for the study online. 6:08 am here. Very tired, work is for the birds!

Face it is clear you have zero understanding of the topic at hand and have done no research what so ever. Once again evolution and common descent remain unchallenged. Especially by the children of religion who like to scream "I have done years of research, I know what I am about. Just don't ask me anything."

[ 12-13-2006, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Mr. K ]

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Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 12-13-2006 08:29 AM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK SPORK

Who said I had a problem with evolution or common descent? Read my posts first before you criticize.

MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS MONKEYS

[ 12-14-2006, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: MewtwoSama ]

From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 12-13-2006 03:42 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Face isn't going to say anything important, so don't bother addressing him.

Cheese: Most likely most of the prey were killed off quickly.

Well, yeah, but that's not proof of evolution

Also it forced more of them to hid out in bush's and trees already changing their lifestyle so quickly, and their bodies started to follow suite.

That's exactly how evolution doesn't work. Evolution isn't like the X-Men. Individuals do not evolve, populations do.

Are you sure you're not dicking us around too?

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Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-13-2006 03:44 PM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
After another six months, during which time the Anolis lizards grew increasingly arboreal, selective pressures were exactly the opposite: Survivors were now characterized by having shorter legs on the experimental islands as compared to the control islands.

So they must have done this close to a breeding time or something since they had examples that the population had changed in certain ways. Plus if almost all the lizards are now short limbed because the rest are dead then only those genes will survive. So it's not much to infer that this will continue to happen in the population.

[ 12-13-2006, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Mr. K ]

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Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-13-2006 04:01 PM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Although I am reading this incorrectly probably. Unless they mean this in already this part of the population that already existed on the islands. So that as they became more arboreal the ones with shorter but still originally longer legs then the whole population? Lazy research from here that females lay 1 egg sometimes two. They take 6-8 weeks to hatch.

I am obviously by no means an expert on this. I was seriously curious about someone doing lots of research into this and coming to the opposite conclusions of almost all the scientific world.

quote:

Most often, the adult brown anole breeds seasonally in the summer months (generally March or April until August or September). During this time, the female lays one or two eggs at a time on a weekly or bi-weekly basis for the entire breeding season. She generally lays between 15 and 18 eggs per breeding season.

So they could have possibly seen two breeding seasons and seen a rapid population shift in leg length. I really don't know. If you or someone has Uni access mabey you could grab this. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v387/n6628/abs/387070a0.html
Actual study

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Mr. K
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posted 12-13-2006 04:04 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cheese: So they must have done this close to a breeding time or something...

The time frame here is pretty important.

Plus if almost all the lizards are now short limbed because the rest are dead then only those genes will survive.

That's only true if you believe in natural selection, which is the thing you're trying to prove. Based on the information you've given us so far, all we know is that lizards who are slow and have trouble climbing get eaten. Evolution requires proof of the long term process.

Also, I knew Face's link-slinging reminded me of something:

quote:
"Oh, Eeyore," began Piglet a little nervously, because Eeyore was busy.

Eeyore put out a paw and waved him away.

"To-morrow," said Eeyore. "Or the next day." Piglet came a little closer to see what it was. Eeyore had three sticks on the ground, and was looking at them. Two of the sticks were touching at one end, but not at the other, and the third stick was laid across them. Piglet thought that perhaps it was a Trap of some kind.

"Oh, Eeyore," he began again, "I just--"

"Is that little Piglet?" said Eeyore, still looking hard at his sticks.

"Yes, Eeyore, and I--"

"Do you know what this is?"

"No," said Piglet.

"It's an A."

"Oh," said Piglet.

"Not O--A," said Eeyore severely. "Can't you hear, or do you think you have more education than Christopher Robin?"

"Yes," said Piglet. "No," said Piglet very quickly. And he came closer still.

"Christopher Robin said it was an A, and an A it is--until somebody treads on it," Eeyore added sternly.

Piglet jumped backwards hurriedly, and smelt at his violets.

"Do you know what A means, little Piglet?"

"No, Eeyore, I don't."

"It means Learning, it means Education, it means all the things that you and Pooh haven't got. That's what A means."

"Oh," said Piglet again. "I mean, does it?" he explained quickly.

"I'm telling you. People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying 'Ha ha!' But do they know anything about A? They don't. It's just three sticks to them. But to the Educated--mark this, little Piglet--to the Educated, not meaning Poohs and Piglets, it's a great and glorious A. Not," he added, "just something that anybody can come and breathe on."

Piglet stepped back nervously, and looked round for help.


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-13-2006 04:45 PM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I understand the importance of the time frame however it is not provided. I will try to look for the study that is not pay for. However having actual macro evolution proof in terms of observation is impossible due to the time scale. Although experiments like this can help scientists infer things.
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Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 12-13-2006 10:06 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
K: Face isn't going to say anything important, so don't bother addressing him.


TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE TOFFEE

Yeah, especially when you edit my posts to mean something *completely different* from what I had in fact said.

CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP CRISP

[ 12-14-2006, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: MewtwoSama ]

- - - - -
Weezing!

From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lark84
My skeleton is made of creamy nougat.
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posted 12-14-2006 11:45 AM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I have understood everything correctly, you worry that 6 months is too short a time to see any real evolution taking place in a population of lizards which has a lifespan of at least the double, probably even the triple. This is a valid point.

While thinking about this, I came up with a (probably) uneducated guess which might explain why "evolution" was witnessed among these lizards, when in fact it may not have been evolution at all.

Suppose for a moment that evolution in this lizard species does not exist. Suppose that for as long as these lizards have existed, they have been exactly the same. Suppose also that, much like humans, they are all born a little different - some have slightly larger eyes, some have slightly longer or slightly shorter legs. Even without evolution, I think most would agree that such variations will exist, just like they do between humans.

For argument's sake, say that the number of lizards with long legs equals that of the lizards with short legs.

Now, a predator is introduced to the island. The ground-dwelling lizards are faced with a threat, and the ones with short chubby legs are even more in danger than those with long legs, since those with short legs can't run away as fast.

Short-legged lizards are caught. The percentage of long-legged lizards in the population increases.

The remaining (long-legged) lizards flee to the treetops, where they are safe from the predators.

Of course, they keep having babies. And, like we previously suppposed, some of these babies have short legs, others have long legs. Since the lizards have now moved into trees and bushes, those with long legs are at a disadvantage - they have a harder time navigating narrow branches, and thus, they fall to the ground (where they are eaten) more often than their short-legged peers.

The percentage of long-legged lizards goes down (since they suck at climbing and fall from the trees into the waiting jaws of a ground-dwelling predator), while the percentage of (now surviving) short-legged lizards goes up.

This does not mean I don't believe in evolution, but, like others, I question if it really was evolution at work in this particular case.

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Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 12-14-2006 04:56 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stable Company!

Fueled by the possibility of an upcoming merger, Wild Brush
Energy (WBRS) is gearing up for an explosion. Tension is
building and soon the scramble to take a position will push
this one off the charts.

Wild Brush Energy
Symbol: WBRS
Current Price: $0.052
Short Term Target: $0.32
Long Term Target: $0.80

WBRS is engaged in some of the most lucrative gas regions in North America. Major discoveries are happening all the time and WBRS is in
the thick of it.

With the array of drilling projects Wild Brush has going on at the
moment
tension is building. As the drilling gets closer to completion
insiders are
accumulating ahead of that major discovery announcement.


I question evolution entirely. Not only that, but if evolution were true, then one would expect the power of natural selection to do its job. The evidence suggests that natural selection is far from 'doing its job'.


Wild Brush Energy are very stable working company.
Charts are proving this words.
And now it will get to new level.
We expect big price increase next several days.
Price will start to rise Thursday, December 14 2006.
Today at 12.00 will be huge volume and small price grow.
And WBRS going to be very HOT.
We hope you already get this one and will make money with us.


[ 12-14-2006, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: MewtwoSama ]

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Weezing!

From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 12-14-2006 11:28 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lark84: This does not mean I don't believe in evolution, but, like others, I question if it really was evolution at work in this particular case.

Right, all we've seen here is that the first stage of natural selection has taken place, which has nothing to do with genes or mutations. Since we don't really know the time frame of the study, it's not exactly the knockout punch Cheese was portraying it as.

The lizards lay a lot of eggs, so it's possible there's some minor bit of evolution going on here, but it seems far more likely that it's just a simple matter of the ill-equipped dying off.

Also Face makes an excellent point about that Wild Brush Energy. I hear that shit is going through the roof.

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Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 12-15-2006 09:02 AM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Keith delivered a somewhat underpowered opening spiel: Sen Johnson's brain surgery, the Dems plan investigations, candidates in Iraq, the Diana investigation, the latest from Jib-Jab, and more. KO served up the latest on the stricken Senator, with some help from Chip Reid. Thus began an Hour of Spin that would prove to be even more boring than it was tendentious.

That wasn't me K, it was MewtwoSama.

Voldemorts followers had disbanded, and Harry Potter had become famous.
It had been enough of a shock for Harry to discover, on his eleventh
birthday, that he was a wizard; it had been even more disconcerting to


[ 12-15-2006, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: MewtwoSama ]

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Weezing!

From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cheeseisyourfriend
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posted 12-16-2006 10:14 AM      Profile for Cheeseisyourfriend   Email Cheeseisyourfriend   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First off, still kinda drunk. But here goes.

http://www.biology.wustl.edu/~lososlab/genetica.pdf

I am pretty sure this is the study here. Althoug this took place in 1997 this was released. This actually puts the time frame at 15 years for gathering of data. I will respond more when I actually read this, screen is teetering to much right now.

quote:
I question evolution entirely. Not only that, but if evolution were true, then one would expect the power of natural selection to do its job. The evidence suggests that natural selection is far from 'doing its job'.

How so?
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starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
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posted 12-16-2006 03:27 PM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseisyourfriend:
First off, still kinda drunk.

I will respond more when I actually read this, screen is teetering to much right now.

it makes me mad that my posts get nuked when i troll you
From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 12-17-2006 04:43 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, he totally deserves it, but we're trying to have a conversation here.

Cheese, don't post links and expect people to read them. We honestly don't care that much. It's no better than when Face says "I have an opinion!" and then slings some random link at us which he probably didn't understand anyway.

If you have something to say about a document, read it first and summarize it for us. You can probably even make up your own conclusions, because no one is going to read a 17 page document written by some brain dead grad student.

Honestly, I don't even see where you're going with this. There is plenty of data that backs up the evolutionary process. One more article about lizards with lots of words Face can't pronounce isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

You're barking up a pretty esoteric tree at this point.

From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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