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Author Topic: Did cfalcon lose the atheism argument?
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338

posted 02-17-2004 08:29 PM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just trying to see how many people were affected by the thread.

Edit: Crap, the second question is the tittle off the this topic. And no offense to cfaclon. Do not delete this topic.

[ 02-17-2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: ceoalex316 ]

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From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
BigCheese
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posted 02-17-2004 09:13 PM      Profile for BigCheese   Email BigCheese   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another superb topic. [PBJ Time!]

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I have a nice butt!

From: The land of milk and honey...and cheese | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anthrax
Ultimate Authoritative Power in the Universe
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posted 02-17-2004 10:11 PM      Profile for Anthrax   Author's Homepage   Email Anthrax   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
he got his ass handed to him

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She told The Associated Press she first realized her son was mentally ill in 1996 when he killed her oldest child, a 25-year-old woman who suffered from cerebral palsy, by beating her with a dumbbell.

From: Somebody put shit in my pants! | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sonuis
Sonius
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posted 02-17-2004 10:55 PM      Profile for Sonuis   Email Sonuis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anthrax:
he got his ass handed to him

10-4. He lost as soon as Wintermute said he surrendered.
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cfalcon
OLDNBLD
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posted 02-18-2004 12:40 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Err... I'm not done yet.

I'm struggling with the fact that I started out with:

Me: Ok, no one is disputing A. The question then, is B, and C.

Wintermute: How can you argue with A? A is obvious?

He would often turn the arguement back to something that I didn't disagree with. To show his utter misunderstanding, he linked to some crazy Christian guy with these horribly incorrect ideas about "why atheism is a religion", none of which were mine, right, or relevant.

Since he's convinced I'm trolling now, I'm trying to find a way to shoot the bullet of understanding from the gun of simplicity, past the brow of thickness and into the neural nest of eventually hearing what I am saying, without scatalogical references or homosexual imagery.

Though legitimately, I did kind of start out with a troll. I started out with "as faith approaches zero", which isn't a good arguement because it assumes that faith is a continuous thing, which was never actually given. It was a troll because it's presented in an arrogant "hey, this is math" way, and, well, I sort of enjoyed it. But the rest was legit... though I must admit, after the third post or so of pure anger being shot back, you know, well...

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Random Loser
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posted 02-18-2004 02:37 AM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the problem is that your A, B, and C's are so mixed together it's hard to pull them apart (if they even should be..). He did agree that treating it as a religion from a regulatory standpoint worked ok. The whole point of his argument was that, in the way the word religion's used commonly, as well as how it's defined by the definition, Atheism isn't a religion. What other points were you making that are being ignored?

BTW, I think you lost... course I was arguing against you, so I suppose I would...

From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kid Vid2
I am a tub of earwax.
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posted 02-18-2004 07:34 AM      Profile for Kid Vid2   Email Kid Vid2   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
Err... I'm not done yet.

And neither is Dennis Kucinich.
From: cardbord box :((((((((((((( | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 02-18-2004 12:22 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ooooo I think you're lucky I don't know who that is!
From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Slade_64
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posted 02-18-2004 02:17 PM      Profile for Slade_64   Email Slade_64   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 


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Bucket.

From: Funky Town Texas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jman
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posted 02-18-2004 03:00 PM      Profile for Jman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You can't win a topic.
From: da burgh | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
pkthunder
I look like your mom.
Member # 67

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posted 02-18-2004 03:25 PM      Profile for pkthunder   Author's Homepage   Email pkthunder   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
Ooooo I think you're lucky I don't know who that is!

He's this Vulcan dude who's only barely beating Sharpton's numbers in the Democratic primaries.
From: Broomfield, CO | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
NOBODY IMPORTANT
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posted 02-18-2004 11:29 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who was the loser that changed their opinion?
From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338

posted 02-19-2004 01:15 AM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The fact almost no one changed their opinion that proves two things.

1- Everyone but one person is stubborn
2- No one won the thread since no one changed their mind. Therefore the arguments were futile except for that one person who in this case can declare the winner.

From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Slade_64
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posted 02-19-2004 01:56 AM      Profile for Slade_64   Email Slade_64   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ceoalex316:
The fact almost no one changed their opinion that proves two things.

1- Everyone but one person is stubborn
2- No one won the thread since no one changed their mind. Therefore the arguments were futile except for that one person who in this case can declare the winner.

1- What if they're agnostic
2- Thats what I said. Kinda.

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Bucket.

From: Funky Town Texas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
137
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posted 02-19-2004 05:44 AM      Profile for 137   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That doesn't really "prove" everyone stubborn.

Maybe the opposing side didn't make their point well enough.

From: Space. Like, outer space. | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 02-19-2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it is cfalcon's goal to make everyone realize he's as stupid as I know he is.
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
pkthunder
I look like your mom.
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posted 02-20-2004 11:20 AM      Profile for pkthunder   Author's Homepage   Email pkthunder   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A song lyric, for cfalcon:

if I hold my tongue I'll never lose my voice

-Barenaked Ladies, "Upside Down"

[Big Grin]

From: Broomfield, CO | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Anthrax
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posted 02-20-2004 02:16 PM      Profile for Anthrax   Author's Homepage   Email Anthrax   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used to think cfalcon knew what he was talking about.

His failure to accept defeat and continue bringing up more and more ridiculous arguments was worse mental masturbation than that godawful "cat and buttered toast" thread.

[ 02-20-2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Anthrax ]

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She told The Associated Press she first realized her son was mentally ill in 1996 when he killed her oldest child, a 25-year-old woman who suffered from cerebral palsy, by beating her with a dumbbell.

From: Somebody put shit in my pants! | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Slade_64
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posted 02-20-2004 02:23 PM      Profile for Slade_64   Email Slade_64   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I loved that thread...

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Bucket.

From: Funky Town Texas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 02-20-2004 03:50 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I started out with something like "by the definition of religion, atheism is not a religion", and then I went from there. I tried to point out how atheism matches up with our use of the word, and I didn't use any bogus things like:

- Atheists have a world view from atheism, so it's a religion.
- Atheists can be really passionate, so they are religious
- Atheism has leaders, their conceptual equivalant of spiritual leaders, prophets, or gods.

I didn't use those guys. I just pointed out that if I ask for your political party, and you say "Independent", I know what you're talking about. In language and as we deal with one another we plug the logical "nothing" hole- and sometimes we have different flavors of nothing. If your can has no color, it could be white or black or gray or transparent (or invisible). None of those things are colors, but we talk as if they were, and we relate to them at every level as if they were colors.

We use "atheism" as a term for that reason. If we didn't well, for starters, we wouldn't have a term for it.

All Wintermute did the entire thread was insult me in a humoroush fashion. I probably should have responded in kind, because apparantly the consensus is that if I make a point you sort of agree with toward your pregenerated conclusion and call someone a fagfucker, well, hot DAMN I've gotta be correct!

- I started with "The definition of religion excludes atheism, and here is why I disagree.." To that kind of statement, Wintermute has this kind of thing:

"Congrats, you're now arguing that (A v ~A) is false."

I was, in fact, arguing that ~A doesn't really exist, in the way we use it.

LET ME SAY IT AGAIN IN CAPS FOR THOSE WHO MISSED IT THE LAST EIGHTEEN TIMES: BY THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION. I KNOW THIS. THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

But, if Wintermute *claims* that I am arguing A v !A = 0, then he sounds very smart, and I don't think most of you bothered to notice that all he was saying was "Hey, if you argue with the definition of atheism, you're disagreeing with the agreed-upon definition of atheism!".

My basic premise was that atheism is as much a religion as black is a color. Everyone knows that black isn't a color, but everyone treats it like it is. If you don't, you eventually run into logical inconsistencies- like black and white being indistinguishable (they aren't, but you need to refer to other quantities). From a layman's standpoint, they are colors. From a layman's standpoint, atheism is a religion. If someone says "I don't believe we should stab anyone in the face because of their religion.", he is also advocating not stabbing the atheist in the face.

Remember this all sprung from Wintermute's attempt to make us all realize how great it was to be able to legally mandate atheism, and because atheism isn't a religion, you aren't making a religious law.

There, that was a good paragraph. Yea, I'm not going to say it better than that.

I guess I could use a numerical analogy: If I say that you aren't allowed to multiply numbers, and you say "ok, I'll multiply your five by my infinity, which isn't a number, and hand you back your new infinity", you are cheating with words and intentions, because you knew full well when you did that that "infinity" was going to act on and replace a number.

That's not bulletproof, because you can't actually multiply by infinity, but I think it's reasonable.

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
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posted 02-20-2004 04:34 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From what I've seen the only solution is to ban you.
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ikuse
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posted 02-20-2004 05:45 PM      Profile for Ikuse   Author's Homepage   Email Ikuse   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
SPONG
From: In my pants. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 02-20-2004 06:19 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's cool to post one liners. Only people who are intrinsically cool and correct do so. Just ask Michael Moore or Rush Limbaugh!
From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ikuse
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posted 02-20-2004 07:09 PM      Profile for Ikuse   Author's Homepage   Email Ikuse   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
did you hear about the chainsaw who went to the lumberyard to buy some wood?

he asked for a cut rate!

From: In my pants. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
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posted 02-20-2004 07:45 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All Wintermute did the entire thread was insult me in a humoroush fashion.

John, fuck you. Yeah I was being an insulting prick, but I busted my ass in that thread, untangling your confused bullshit over and over and over again. I'm not indefatigable, for christ's sake.

I tried to read your latest hairball a few posts up, and I can't even believe how severed from reality you are. I actually wrote a sort of nice post for you, saying that I think you're a smart guy, you just persistently and egregiously overestimate your skill at discourse. Hey, I suck balls at engineering, but I don't think that I can do it.

But I've fucking had it with you, for serious. Any participant or spectator can apply any victory condition they like to that argument. I'll just say that I'm quite content to wash my hands of it. Go play with someone else.

From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338

posted 02-21-2004 01:52 AM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Everyone knows that black isn't a color, but everyone treats it like it is.
Ok, but if we argue if black is a color or not who would win?

Wait a minute, do you think black is a color?

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Mr. K
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posted 02-21-2004 05:56 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
cfalcon: LET ME SAY IT AGAIN IN CAPS FOR THOSE WHO MISSED IT THE LAST EIGHTEEN TIMES: BY THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION. I KNOW THIS. THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

The first line of your "Proof I'm Stupid World Tour 2004" thread was "Why atheism is a religion".

You are not smart.

From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dark_Herakurosu
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posted 02-22-2004 08:59 PM      Profile for Dark_Herakurosu   Author's Homepage   Email Dark_Herakurosu   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 


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There is more money being spent on breast implants and Viagra today than on Alzheimer's research. This means that by 2040, there should be a large elderly population with perky boobs, huge erections, and absolutely no recollection of what to do with them.

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Random Loser
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posted 02-23-2004 03:30 AM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While I see what you're saying, it's still not right. You can't say "it's not such-and-such by the definition, but is anyway," that just doesn't work. The definition of 'definition': the meaning of a word, phrase, or term. That's it, the definition of a word is what that word IS. If it doesn't fit the definition, it doesn't fit. And no, we don't use black like it's a color. Like K said, saying it's 'color' is black is an explanation, not an answer. When you say your car's color is black, you're saying it has no color, an explanation. When you say your religion is Atheism, you're saying you don't have a religion... in fact even stronger, you're saying you flat out don't believe in religious ideas at all. How a word is used due to holes in the english langauge doesn't change the meaning of the word.
From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
CrystalMeth
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posted 02-23-2004 08:31 PM      Profile for CrystalMeth   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow it's good to be back. I read all that atheism nonsense and actually found it entertaining how you all manage to confuse the main point and nit-pick details and lose all sense of perspective and common sense. God only knows why I find that all entertaining, maybe it's cuz I need to get laid.

You're really beating a dead horse and saying the same thing over and over. All this has amounted to is stating the obvious, which is:

- Atheism is not a religion, it is a lack of a religion.

- For the purpose of laws and common sense, when referring to "freedom of religion" atheism falls into the same category as religion, in that you have the freedom to practice any religion, or none at all.

It's amazing how many pages can be spent picking apart this simple idea and discussing it to death. It really is.

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-Crys
Meow!

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Fenix
I live in a public bathroom.
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posted 02-23-2004 08:40 PM      Profile for Fenix   Author's Homepage   Email Fenix   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: The Homeworld, Aiur | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dark_Herakurosu
Farting Nudist
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posted 02-23-2004 08:47 PM      Profile for Dark_Herakurosu   Author's Homepage   Email Dark_Herakurosu   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fenix:



[ 02-23-2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Dark_Herakurosu ]

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