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Author
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Topic: I'm Mormon now
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-13-2003 10:33 PM
Humor may commence.
From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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Triple C
Colonel Cock Chomper
Member # 6
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posted 07-13-2003 10:47 PM
![[Trash Bear]](graemlins/trashbear.gif)
From: Dudleyville | Registered: Feb 2000
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Jman
Farting Nudist
Member # 618
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posted 07-13-2003 10:55 PM
Pick up some bitches.
Notice the clever use of the plural noun.
From: da burgh | Registered: Jul 2000
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MK
is somewhat large.
Member # 1445
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posted 07-13-2003 11:13 PM
You know you're going to Hell don't ya?
Registered: Jan 2001
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Donald
Bob the Builder
Member # 1551
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posted 07-13-2003 11:27 PM
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) @ MK
From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-13-2003 11:52 PM
My parents gave me lube. These are the same parents who've used the word "sex" in front of me exactly once.
They're not Mormon btw.
From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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Ikuse
Farting Nudist
Member # 3037
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posted 07-14-2003 12:16 AM
I'd just like to point out right now that Mormons are the scum of the earth.
Good luck with that masturbation thing.
From: In my pants. | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ferquin
Farting Nudist
Member # 3269
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posted 07-14-2003 03:21 AM
Do you get to be in those boys' choirs?
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Ferquin N.C. Root
The Ferquinarium
From: Renton, WA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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GenyaA310
Farting Nudist
Member # 3409
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posted 07-14-2003 03:49 AM
Don't Mormons baptize the dead?
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You and I have a rendevous with destiny. We can secure for ourselves this, the last best hope that man has to offer or the first steps into a thousand years of darkness. Ronald Reagan
From: Province of Wallachia | Registered: Jun 2003
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cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19
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posted 07-14-2003 04:14 AM
You know you're going to Hell don't ya?
Ok MK, are you serious when you post shit like this?
What denomination are you, anyway? Baptist? Baptists believe that all you *need* to go to heaven is to take Jesus as your Lord and saviour. In fact, most protestants believe that.
So how are mormons going to hell?
And don't try to give me any shit about that dubious line in revelations, either.
Anyway, good luck with the Mormon thing, Rolken. I don't think it's very rational, but I'll bet you don't either- you just think it's right. If it doesn't work out or something, in the future, don't let yourself get guilted into bad ideas. But since that's what you wanted, good job. If you want, I can tell tales of the few Mormons I've known- their stories tend more toward the "happily ever after" ending than most people's do, I'll give them that.
Are you going to do the Crazy Mormon Mission where you go somewhere in the world and can't jack off for a year?
They do think masturbation is sinful. This makes no sense to me, but whatever, some religions only let you keep part of your genitals. Religions are strange.
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Subject: Ninja and Opensource
From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000
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ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338
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posted 07-14-2003 01:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
You know you're going to Hell don't ya?
Ok MK, are you serious when you post shit like this?
If he was serious, he's wrong because the Mormon religion is the right religion to get you into heaven. God hates all the other religions.
From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000
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Fluorine
SMELLY BUTT
Member # 2904
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posted 07-14-2003 01:40 PM
God hates all religions.
Only atheists will go to heaven.
Registered: Jun 2002
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ReturnofNumeroUno
Farting Nudist
Member # 476
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posted 07-14-2003 03:15 PM
Wanna go for a drink sometime?
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Ich Liebe NintendoLover
From: Pembroke Pines Florida | Registered: May 2000
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cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19
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posted 07-14-2003 07:29 PM
A friend of mine sent me a link that is appropriate for this thread. No relation to Rolken's conversion, just an odd coincidence.
Hostile to mormonism, but still interesting.
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
and the plain website at
http://www.exmormon.org/
From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-14-2003 10:09 PM
Ferquin: Do you get to be in those boys' choirs?
I was in the choir (we don't segregate in that regard), but our new chorister sucks and stopped choir practice.
Genya: Don't Mormons baptize the dead?
Yea, actually. The Church has the biggest genealogy archive in the world located in Salt Lake for that purpose; around 3 billion names I think. Maybe higher now. It's open to non-Mormons too tho, and they compose around half of those who use it.
But about baptism for the dead, it's not a "you must be Mormon" thing. It's more of a "if you changed your mind in the interim afterlife we won't cut you off" thing. If someone's determined not to accept it it doesn't really matter.
cfalcon: Anyway, good luck with the Mormon thing, Rolken. I don't think it's very rational, but I'll bet you don't either- you just think it's right.
Thanx. Yeah, you got it.
If you want, I can tell tales of the few Mormons I've known- their stories tend more toward the "happily ever after" ending than most people's do, I'll give them that.
Sure, if you want - yeah, BYU (the Mormon college) was rated fifth best quality of life by US News or some company like that in spite of being first or second in all the "we don't party" categories. Plus IIRC Mormons rank near the bottom in divorces. Plus Mormon families just seem happier. Not that that's my main reason for converting, but it's worth noting.
Are you going to do the Crazy Mormon Mission where you go somewhere in the world and can't jack off for a year?
Two years. =p
They do think masturbation is sinful. This makes no sense to me, but whatever, some religions only let you keep part of your genitals. Religions are strange.
I'm not entirely sure about that - I've only heard it from people snickering at the Mormons and that letter that circulates from around 25 years ago. I mean, 25 years ago they wouldn't let blacks be priests either. But I wouldn't be surprised either, given their stances on that sort in general. Could be the Apostles just don't wanna say dirty words like that.
The circumcision thing didn't even occur to me. And people say we're bizarre. I mean, Catholics baptize babies, right? And how do they know whether they believe in God? (I'm actually interested in the subject if any Catholic out there cares to respond, since I figure there must be some reasoning behind it?)
caoeino: If he was serious, he's wrong because the Mormon religion is the right religion to get you into heaven. God hates all the other religions.
Yea, pretty obvious you don't have a clue. Most Mormons believe all religions have a degree of truth, and we don't believe in eternal Hell anyway. Sorry bucko.
#1: Wanna go for a drink sometime?
Sure. Sprite or lemonade?
cfalcon: A friend of mine sent me a link that is appropriate for this thread. No relation to Rolken's conversion, just an odd coincidence.
I've read that site. They have some valid points, some points that look good but fall apart on closer examination, some that're misleading (Joseph Smith knew he was going to lose the presidential election; he did it for publicity - and the church doesn't exactly spend tithing money on pot) and some that're flat-out wrong (I was never warned against associating with apostates, and Joseph Smith died in the middle of his translation).
Some of the things they say are true, tho. Joseph Smith could be out of line at times, as he publically admitted in his version of the Church History, which is part of the Mormon Standard Works (scripture).
The pro-Mormon counterpart of cfalcon's site may also be interesting, although obviously most of the people there aren't exactly objective on the subject either. They do have a UBB where pro/anti-Mormon folks debate, and it can be interesting when it's not just scripture-quote-fests.
Basically, if you want to disprove it you will, and if you don't you won't. It largely depends on the sources you read.
If anyone wants my philosophy, ask away. We're known for proselyting, after all.
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[insert sig here]
From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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Donald
Bob the Builder
Member # 1551
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posted 07-14-2003 10:38 PM
Are you going to be one of those kick-ass Mormons who plays video games while preaching?
From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001
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The Muffin King
Farting Nudist
Member # 2240
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posted 07-14-2003 10:59 PM
Why?
From: Maryland | Registered: Sep 2001
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ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338
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posted 07-14-2003 11:15 PM
caoeino: If he was serious, he's wrong because the Mormon religion is the right religion to get you into heaven. God hates all the other religions.
Yea, pretty obvious you don't have a clue. Most Mormons believe all religions have a degree of truth, and we don't believe in eternal Hell anyway. Sorry bucko.
You just totally misunderstood me, responding to something you didn't understand makes you a hypocrite because you flame me for doing it.
I should have used the  icon. Also, my post was a south park reference (which you might not have caught.)
Good luck with the Mormon thing though, I’m just curious as to why would you choose to be a Mormon out of all the religions out there?
From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000
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GenyaA310
Farting Nudist
Member # 3409
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posted 07-15-2003 12:20 AM
I think its great that you believe in Jesus and all now, but here is a verse from the Bible to ponder:
Revelation 22:18
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
If you read the verse as I do, The Book of Mormon is an addition to the Bible. Any thoughts?
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You and I have a rendevous with destiny. We can secure for ourselves this, the last best hope that man has to offer or the first steps into a thousand years of darkness. Ronald Reagan
From: Province of Wallachia | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-15-2003 12:48 AM
Oh, I figured you were being sarcastic or something (I haven't seen South Park). Sorry.
Don: Are you going to be one of those kick-ass Mormons who plays video games while preaching?
Well, since I've told people about it on the Net whilst playing Sonic Adventure, I suppose I already am. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I’m just curious as to why would you choose to be a Mormon out of all the religions out there?
Hmm. Well, pragmatically because Mormons seem to have caught on to something that works, and spiritually for the obvious reasons - I read the BoM and it resonated. Mostly the latter.
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[insert sig here]
From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-15-2003 01:05 AM
Oops, missed Genya's post.
That's one of those things which becomes pretty obvious after some investigation.
For those who aren't up on their Bible, Revelation 22:18-19 (it kinda goes together) says:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The important point is that when John - who is not Peter - wrote that, there was no such thing as a unified Bible; there were just various sacred writings such as Revelation. The incorporation into the Bible came much later. When he warns against modification, he means specifically to the Book of Revelation - which is a fear Joseph Smith shared when he published the Book of Mormon, incidentally. He had the luxury of copyright laws though.
[ 07-15-2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Rolken ]
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[insert sig here]
From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19
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posted 07-15-2003 01:34 AM
Hey, didn't I say *not* to bring that up earlier in the thread?
When that was written the Bible hadn't been put in order yet (council of Nicea, I believe). It was referring to the book of Revelations, not the Bible: there was no entire Bible then. Baptists told me in the past that that is what it means, but I don't buy it. At no other point is the entire Bible so self referential.
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Subject: Ninja and Opensource
From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000
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Dark_Herakurosu
Farting Nudist
Member # 1677
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posted 07-15-2003 01:51 AM
If I become Mormon do I get to go to Hell? I'd be so ruling that place. ![[PBJ Time!]](graemlins/pbjtime.gif)
Registered: Apr 2001
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cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19
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posted 07-15-2003 02:01 AM
hey cool i missed rolkens post but managed to spout off the party line anyway kewl yo
Rolken:
1- Didn't John write Revelation, not Peter?
2- Theirs works? Man, a lot of them work. Baptists work. Catholics work. Against Mormonism you have the following things:
A- The events talked about are the most recent and the most falsifiable. When the Bible says the sun stood still, we can deduce that that is impossible, and if it did occur, He would have to carefully fix it afterwords so that it left no detectable traces. But it happened a long time ago, so we can't say one way or another. Most of the Bible, and other ancient texts are like that: about all we can falsify is some of the more bizarre aspects of the creation story, or the cosmology (the earth is not flat, there are no elephants, there is no giant turtle). But some of the claims that the Book of Mormon makes about America are objectively wrong. God would have to falsify a lot more than fossil records there, after all. When I was talking religion with the Mormon at my work, he mentioned the gold plates, and I got excited... was there an object in this world claimed to actually be basically a holy object? Who gets to see the gold plates? Touch them? What did scientists find? Then he got to the part about angels absconding with them, and I was dissapointed.
B- Mormons seemed to be a bloody cult as recently as a century ago (mainstream Christians have a bit more time to go back in, Muslims still seem it). Their religion is constantly changing to make it more mainstream. In terms of hokiness, it's pretty high: you claim that you have a *living* Prophet of God himself! The wacky prophecies in the Bible came vaguely true (or were recorded as such), but there remain some that would take some creative future to get around. Basically. they are a lot less mainstream than the other religions that get around these days.
C- There is a powerful web of support in existence for people disillusioned with the Church of Latter Day Saints. A lot of people complain of all sorts of bad things. While these things are in the minority, the fact is that there is no web of support for leaving mainstream protestantism, or Catholicism, or Buddism, or whatever. You just say "peace yo, I'm out" and put up with your family bitching or whatever.
So we (well, me) would like a little more than just "rang true" and "seems to work". How did it ring true? Why truer than others?
I'm a Lutheran. If I were dropped on this planet today and asked to choose a religion, I would read up on it. I would probably be either an agnostic, an atheist, or a deist. I also might be a "fringe" Christian that believes that a lot of the Bible has to be phooey, because it keeps contradicting itself or something. All of these "religions" assume very little (or nothing) about God. Most people tend to stick with what they were raised with: I mean, we have atheists on this board that were basically raised atheist. So why does Mormonism strike you as making sense? I mean, to put it in a light fashion, you believe that an angel talked to Joe Smith, he found a bunch of gold plates, translated the plates with the aid of some enchanted sunglasses, had to start over because somebody swiped his translation, finished, fucked an assload of honeys, and eventually everyone moved to Utah. Oh, and that whole massacre where the Mormons killed a bunch of innocents for no reason, the one they don't teach in most schools. Objectively, all religions sound like bunk when put this way, and you are a rational person, so why did this one sound right? What made it stand out from the inspired Eastern fat men, the Japanese intellectuals who thought that the only something was nothing, the pedophillic Mohammed, or the ancient nomadic desert tribe scrolls?Rolken:
1- Didn't John write Revelation, not Peter?
2- Theirs works? Man, a lot of them work. Baptists work. Catholics work. Against Mormonism you have the following things:
A- The events talked about are the most recent and the most falsifiable. When the Bible says the sun stood still, we can deduce that that is impossible, and if it did occur, He would have to carefully fix it afterwords so that it left no detectable traces. But it happened a long time ago, so we can't say one way or another. Most of the Bible, and other ancient texts are like that: about all we can falsify is some of the more bizarre aspects of the creation story, or the cosmology (the earth is not flat, there are no elephants, there is no giant turtle). But some of the claims that the Book of Mormon makes about America are objectively wrong. God would have to falsify a lot more than fossil records there, after all. When I was talking religion with the Mormon at my work, he mentioned the gold plates, and I got excited... was there an object in this world claimed to actually be basically a holy object? Who gets to see the gold plates? Touch them? What did scientists find? Then he got to the part about angels absconding with them, and I was dissapointed.
B- Mormons seemed to be a bloody cult as recently as a century ago (mainstream Christians have a bit more time to go back in, Muslims still seem it). Their religion is constantly changing to make it more mainstream. In terms of hokiness, it's pretty high: you claim that you have a *living* Prophet of God himself! The wacky prophecies in the Bible came vaguely true (or were recorded as such), but there remain some that would take some creative future to get around. Basically. they are a lot less mainstream than the other religions that get around these days.
C- There is a powerful web of support in existence for people disillusioned with the Church of Latter Day Saints. A lot of people complain of all sorts of bad things. While these things are in the minority, the fact is that there is no web of support for leaving mainstream protestantism, or Catholicism, or Buddism, or whatever. You just say "peace yo, I'm out" and put up with your family bitching or whatever.
So we (well, me) would like a little more than just "rang true" and "seems to work". How did it ring true? Why truer than others?
I'm a Lutheran. If I were dropped on this planet today and asked to choose a religion, I would read up on it. I would probably be either an agnostic, an atheist, or a deist. I also might be a "fringe" Christian that believes that a lot of the Bible has to be phooey, because it keeps contradicting itself or something. All of these "religions" assume very little (or nothing) about God. Most people tend to stick with what they were raised with: I mean, we have atheists on this board that were basically raised atheist. So why does Mormonism strike you as making sense? I mean, to put it in a light fashion, you believe that an angel talked to Joe Smith, he found a bunch of gold plates, translated the plates with the aid of some enchanted sunglasses, had to start over because somebody swiped his translation, finished, fucked an assload of honeys, and eventually everyone moved to Utah. Oh, and that whole massacre where the Mormons killed a bunch of innocents for no reason, the one they don't teach in most schools. Objectively, all religions sound like bunk when put this way, and you are a rational person, so why did this one sound right? What made it stand out from the inspired Eastern fat men, the Japanese intellectuals who thought that the only something was nothing, the pedophillic Mohammed, or the ancient nomadic desert tribe scrolls?
From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-15-2003 02:16 AM
Er, you're right on the Revelation thing. Oops.
I didn't bother to make a more profound reply because I didn't think anyone'd care enough to justify it. I'll have one tomorrow - er, today now - though. I need sleep.
I read a book on the massacre. It was pretty sucky.
I doubt I could debunk the logical validity of your argument; the best explanation I could think of would be the construction of another equally valid viewpoint. Although that's not inconsistent with the whole faith-and-free-will thing, nor does that mean points can't be addressed.
Wow, you've listened to Annie's rantings and you still don't think I'm crazy or evil? I'm flattered.
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[insert sig here]
From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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GenyaA310
Farting Nudist
Member # 3409
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posted 07-15-2003 02:33 AM
well, i suppose its better to be sorta Christian, I mean by belief in Jesus, than not...
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You and I have a rendevous with destiny. We can secure for ourselves this, the last best hope that man has to offer or the first steps into a thousand years of darkness. Ronald Reagan
From: Province of Wallachia | Registered: Jun 2003
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Dark_Herakurosu
Farting Nudist
Member # 1677
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posted 07-15-2003 03:41 AM
Comedy
option.
Registered: Apr 2001
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PowerAngelic
I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was...
Member # 693
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posted 07-15-2003 03:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Herakurosu:
Comedy
Pushing it.
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It's about Power.
From: Canada. Stop Laughing. ;_; | Registered: Jul 2000
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Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2
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posted 07-15-2003 08:26 AM
Hey, can I be a prophet too?
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000
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Brayze
Farting Nudist
Member # 1286
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posted 07-15-2003 01:05 PM
I met a Mormon guy once.
I was at this party for a friend's birthday, just a little house gathering. Some of my friend's friends are big tech-support dorks, and had brought their goddamned COMPUTERS, which I thought was all kinds of hilarious.
So I was a little bit tipsy and I decided that I wanted to play on a computer. Being a huge jerk, it's more or less impossible to say no to me without getting a browbeating which lasts for the rest of the night, so of course they agreed. There were obvious trembly-lipped misgivings, but I guess they'll just have to 'R0><0R' some 'n00b' in Warcraft to feel better or whatever.
So I sit down to play this game, Battlefield 1942, which I hate. Now, I suck at war sim games, and my skill at first-person shooter games is mediocre at best. Also, I am not patient. So I was pretty annoyed at having to drive a tank to the battle field for 3 minutes just to be blown up when I got there.
This annoyance manifested as a solid string of fairly harsh profanities. For Example: "Jesus Devil-fucking Christ bitch mother ass shitmonkey dick suck pricks pricks assfaggot", for several minutes straight, with lots of 'Godfuck' and 'shitjesus' thrown in there for seasoning. Not only that, but I was using pretty much every nationality and religion as direct insults, I'm sure I likely referred to some guy as an 'assreaming mormon loafsucker' at some point or another. I was also laughing the entire time, because I had named myself "Mohammed's Load" and was just running up to infantry and blowing us both up with a rocket launcher aimed straight down.
Despite my obvious blasphemy, the guy said NOTHING! I didn't even find out he was big into the God Squad until later, and I was floored. Usually I get pretty dirty, 'righteous' looks when I drop in and observe their little gatherings at universities. So I was pretty surprised to see some guy actually turning the other cheek.
Total respect here, for that guy anyway.
From: Lunar Palace ver. 3.1 | Registered: Dec 2000
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Face
I invented cancer.
Member # 1916
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posted 07-16-2003 05:51 PM
Only atheists will go to heaven.
Only robots get into heaven, damnit!
Yeah good luck with being Mormon and all...whatever.
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Weezing!
From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2
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posted 07-17-2003 11:14 AM
Mormonosity causes cancer.
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000
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Fluorine
SMELLY BUTT
Member # 2904
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posted 07-17-2003 11:22 AM
All atheists are robots.
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Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2
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posted 07-18-2003 08:14 AM
Robots are immune to cancer.
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000
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Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2
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posted 07-18-2003 08:14 AM
Therefore robots are sharks.
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000
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Zerot
I pay schoolgirls to verbally abuse me.
Member # 1295
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posted 07-18-2003 08:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fluorine:
All atheists are robots.
All Buddhists are programs within the Matrix.
From: Speedway, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000
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Ferquin
Farting Nudist
Member # 3269
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posted 07-19-2003 05:41 PM
Fry: "Bender's stupid religion is driving me nuts!"
Leela: "Amen!"
Prof. Farnsworth: "If only he had joined a mainstream religion like Oprahism or Voodoo..."
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Ferquin N.C. Root
The Ferquinarium
From: Renton, WA, USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7
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posted 07-21-2003 01:03 AM
Here ya go. Conversion in a nutshell.
I used to be atheist, as would probably be obvious from my participation in any religious debates before a year or two ago. As I read more of modern science and talked to more atheists, my steadfast belief in atheism waned. My apostasy was catalyzed largely by the self-righteousness of much of the atheist community (although not all - Carl Sagan was one of the most admirable people I know of), their condemnation of similar attitudes among religious groups, and the misunderstanding of science by the atheist and religious lobbies alike. Not to say that truly studying modern science doesn’t lend itself to atheism - over half of scientists are atheists, after all. But as Feynman (originator of quantum electrodynamics) roughly said, nobody really understands what on earth is going on anyway. Bearing that in mind, as well as the prevailing propensity to think of physics in classical terms and then codify the actual equations in quantum terms, I decided that the proliferation of atheism is quite possibly (probably?) an artifact of the classical perspective, with its accompanying myths of determinism and (more significantly) objective reality. For those interested in the latter, John Wheeler’s research lately is pretty interesting. I’m on my laptop as I type this, so I can’t dig up any links at present - I think there was an article in SciAm or Discover on it though. It’s about the observer creating large portions of reality retroactively through the process of observing. Of course, it could be wrong.
But anyway. I hadn’t decided that atheism was necessarily wrong, but it didn’t seem to me to have an exalted place in the cosmos anymore. Before I got involved in the Church (or any other religion, for that matter), I did some thought of my own and decided on a few basic rules. On my part, I wasn’t doing no religion thing till I’d talked to a few people who were disillusioned with it. And for that God guy: there’s no such thing as an almighty, omnipotent, micromanaging God, and being a faithful jerk won’t get you more points than being a virtuous pagan, nor will anyone be condemned due to their circumstances. I was kinda bummed that that ruled out pretty much all of Christianity, since I figured that killed Judaism and Islam by extension. Christianity itself I thought was pretty simplemindedly naive to begin with, but hey, you never know. I wasn’t a theologian, after all. Anyway, that left Hinduism, Buddhism, and Falun Gong. Having a Hindu dad was enough to know that was a bad idea. I’d read a few books on Buddhism, and it seemed rather interesting, but... well, Buddhists’re weird. Incidentally, back in my atheist day I’d known three or four “Buddhists” who were mostly teenagers jaded with the Judeo-Christian perspective, and I convinced all but one of them that it was kinda dumb. Although the fact that I knew more about their religion and its roots than they did probably helped.
Well, before I raised the money to buy a plane ticket to join Falun Gong in China I queried my then-girlfriend who’d been my best friend for a year or so about what she thought. Oh, and she was Mormon, but at that time I didn’t even really know Mormons were considered weirdos, so I hadn’t taken much note of it. Well, I stood corrected. Just for kicks, I joined her in the early morning Mormon indoctrination class for teenagers that she went to every day. I thought it was kinda interesting, but I was skeptical, to say the least. The first day they happened to be talking about a particular revelation granted Joseph Smith. I don’t remember what exactly, but it wasn’t terribly impressive. I later found out the whole year’s curriculum was centered around the Doctrine and Covenants (latter-day revelation) and church history. Our teacher was the sort of person who centers her life around an ignorant faith in the culture she was brought up in, be it Mormon or anything else. Obviously, the class was meant to preach to the converted. But the history section was pretty interesting on its own merits, so I did my own research, even though I’d long since been rejected by the girl I was dating.
So I read about it from most every perspective - anti-Mormon, apologetic, scholarly, etc., from which I gathered: they’re bad, good, and peculiarly interesting. The anti-Mormons seemed to have the better case, but when I checked on the backgrounds of those I could, their reasons for leaving usually seemed to be independent from the evidence they presented against the Church. So I decided on another method: the Church doctrine says that humans are capable of achieving exaltation and becoming gods of their own worlds. So, conversely, if our God was once mortal (which I liked from the outset because of its conformance with the non-omnipotence I’d decided upon, and which is the No 2 reason people hate the church behind polygamy), we should be able to at least partially understand his thought processes, right? That’s a rhetorical question, smart alecks. So I thought about why he would set up the world the way he did.
That’s pretty much when I was convinced. A lot of things that wouldn’t make sense (to me, anyway) with the conventional God seemed to fit with the Mormon God. Like science itself - if the Catholic God really wanted us to be kept ignorant, why did he bother making the world a comprehensible place? He coulda just as easily micromanaged every particle in existence - he has infinite time and power and everything else, after all. On the other side, Utah has the highest concentration of scientists in the nation. Then there’s Protestantism, in which a bunch of preachers teach us how to worship God (in fifty jillion ways) and no crime matters if you have faith. Uh-huh. Thu Church is a good degree more sophisticated about it. I hold that God’s influence is the product of the hard wiring of religious tendencies into our brains, and a book by the head LDS PR guy (Coke Newell IIRC) says something similar, though I don’t remember the exact wording. On which he had the Presidency’s affirmation (they have a good deal of influence on each other), though they didn’t issue such a statement publically, presumably to prevent a misinterpretation of it as divine intervention.
Later the missionaries came over and said just to pray about the whole thing and see if it were true. They coulda saved me a lot of trouble if they’d told me that earlier.
So, yeah. I was baptised a week ago and confirmed a member today (the 20th). 2/3 of members are converts, incidentally.
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From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000
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Dark_Herakurosu
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posted 07-21-2003 02:58 AM
So I decided on another method: the Church doctrine says that humans are capable of achieving exaltation and becoming gods of their own worlds.
So.. either you want to be god or you want to be Buddhist? I'm not quite following this. Also, tl;dr
Also: hairy krishna hairy krishna hairy krishna hairy krishna ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 07-21-2003, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Dark_Herakurosu ]
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Rolken
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posted 07-22-2003 04:07 AM
hairy krishna hairy krishna hairy krishna hairy krishna
My dad's actually a Hare Krishna, to be specific. Guess weirdness runs in the family.
So.. either you want to be god or you want to be Buddhist? I'm not quite following this.
The former. That's the ideal, anyway.
[ 07-22-2003, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Rolken ]
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137
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posted 07-22-2003 06:16 AM
Where did you hear that over half of scientists are atheist? There was a poll taken of leading physics professors in top universities across America in the late 90s that came out with (I think) 83% of them believing in some sort of divine presence. An overwhelming majority of those said their research led them to this belief. I realize this isn't a broad poll of "scientists", but it's a striking difference. Maybe physics just does that to people; it did that to me.
And the thing about the observer creating large portions of reality retroactively through the process of observing isn't recent research at all. That was discovered in the 1920s, and is a fundamental tenet of all interpretations of quantum mechanics (with the possible exception of the hidden variables one (Einstein's view), depending how far you wanna take it).
As a sidenote, I didn't even know Wheeler was still alive.
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Mr. K
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posted 07-22-2003 03:27 PM
Why are you convinced that the answers lie in an established religion?
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Rolken
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posted 07-23-2003 02:21 AM
137: Where did you hear that over half of scientists are atheist?
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm
And the thing about the observer creating large portions of reality retroactively through the process of observing isn't recent research at all.
Sure it is. "Large portions" means unresolved sections of space millions of lightyears across, not tiny uncertainties with elementary particles.
As a sidenote, I didn't even know Wheeler was still alive.
Barely. I think he's in his nineties.
Mr. K: Why are you convinced that the answers lie in an established religion?
I figured I'd try the beaten path first, although I didn't expect to see myself subscribing to a religion as dictatorially centered as Mormonism. And then if nothing spoke to me, well, obviously Answers lie elsewhere.
That's assuming that Answers work the way we expect them to in the first place. It's entirely possible that our views of truth are as quaint as our views of reality a century ago.
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137
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posted 07-23-2003 11:57 AM
But knowing that at a more fundamental level elementary particles and Planck lengths worth of space itself are the same thing, it's a natural consequence of the observation problem that observing would determine what something is, in a lab or light-years away. Books I read written in the fifties spoke as though this were accepted theory, so I was surprised that this was considered a recent discovery. When I first learned about QED I naturally made the jump from microscopic to macroscopic. Maybe Big John figured some math for it. I'll have to go read.
But I see your point, and apologize if my tone seemed argumentative. That's not what was intended. Also thanks for the link.
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Mr. K
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posted 07-23-2003 06:57 PM
Given that just about every culture has come up with their own system of supernatural beliefs, it's worth considering that if there's something supernatural out there that no mortal has a clear idea about how it works.
I can't really relate to shopping around a for magical belief system. It at least makes sense to me when someone experiences some sort of "visitation" (you know, how the prisoners always say Christ came to them in their cell or something) or whatever, but to consciously make the decision to believe that Joe Smith is a vessel of God or whatever seems a bit odd.
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ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
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posted 07-23-2003 09:50 PM
Why not make up your own belief system, what good is anybody else’s.
Then I can mock a bunch of stubborn Christian women with my cult friends about how they will go into the realm of darkness because they believe in Christ.
They might mock me back on my idea off a realm of darkness, but that’s not really far off from the idea of heaven and hell.
Then I wonder what would happen if everyone in the world were not born into religion, but had to choose one at a certain age. I don’t believe that anyone would choose one that closely resembles his or her beliefs. They would choose the religion that describes life in the best way, probably the religion that gets everyone into heaven no matter what they did in their lifetime. And even if they tried to choose based on their beliefs, none of the religions would match because the person choosing wasn’t brain washed from birth about the “right religion.”
I assume that Rolken is a more enlightened individual than the church lady told me she felt sorry for my family and me because I told her I didn’t think god existed. She also said she’d pray that I’ll find fate in god one day and save my soul from damnation (something like that.) Rolk probably thinks that the Mormon religion just feels very right. I felt the same way when I read a book on spirituality and how god is some energy that controls the universe (like an ocean) and I was a bit of gods energy (a glass of god.) It seemed perfect to me until I started to question it and figured out that if I put all my fate into the thing I wouldn’t need to ask questions and it would make perfect sense. But the fact that I needed to have blind fate in the spirit idea in order for the idea to make sense, made no sense to me.
Now I just don’t think about that stuff any more, I mentioned why in another topic.
This is what I said: Life makes no sense, things that make no sense will upset you, the more you think about life the faster you will decide it makes no sense and you will become more upset, which leads to depression and then suicide. So stop thinking about why we were born and all that crap, because you will end up no where anyway and you’ll be very upset, which can lead to depression and then suicide.
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137
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posted 07-24-2003 03:21 AM
Alex, you should use a dictionary to look up the difference between the word "fate" and the word "faith". Maybe your first language wasn't English, but I think you used it incorrectly.
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ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
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posted 07-24-2003 02:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 137:
Alex, you should use a dictionary to look up the difference between the word "fate" and the word "faith". Maybe your first language wasn't English, but I think you used it incorrectly.
You're cool.
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137
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posted 07-24-2003 03:59 PM
Whoops. That came off sounding smart-ass, didn't it? Read it again with a genuine tone in my voice. I guess I am incomprehensible.
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cfalcon
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posted 07-24-2003 04:21 PM
but to consciously make the decision to believe that Joe Smith is a vessel of God or whatever seems a bit odd.
Well, I think you're supposed to pray and ask God and he'll tell you, or something to that effect.
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