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Author Topic: DUNE
The Muffin King
Farting Nudist
Member # 2240

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posted 05-08-2003 09:49 PM      Profile for The Muffin King   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Feel free to discuss the greatness that is this marvelous science-fiction epic.

Also, give notification if you are going to post spoilers.

From: Maryland | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnnieKat
Suicidal Failure
Member # 3202

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posted 05-08-2003 10:06 PM      Profile for AnnieKat   Author's Homepage   Email AnnieKat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Muffin King:
Feel free to discuss the greatness that is this marvelous science-fiction epic.

Also, give notification if you are going to post spoilers.

Also Leto Atreides was dead sexy.

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aתּņĩềκẢ†~ nθW |’m @ r33| ķıťŧŷ

Anthrax, will you marry me?

From: Anthrax's Love Nest | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
warcraft 3
Member # 2028

posted 05-08-2003 10:29 PM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
warcraft 3

[ 05-08-2003, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Anthrax ]

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 05-08-2003 11:45 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The first book is really good, a classic that anyone would be happy reading.

The other books get wacky.

Really wacky.

And then, to top it all off, the series finale didn't get written because the dude died!

Suxxor!

Thankfully his son and a shitty writer have began ass raping the entire series, writing trashtastic novel (*extremely* amateurish writing style, clearly banged out quickly) after trashtastic novel.

The miniseries is excellent.

<Select a response, depending on whether the Anthrax fairy has been through:>
1-

EN, I do suggest you finish the series. If you read and liked the second and third books, there's nothing to stop you from reading the rest of the series. If a hugemongous psychic worm didn't turn you off, then the series is for you.

2-

Dude, what the fuck *is* it with you and Warcraft III?

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Anthrax
Ultimate Authoritative Power in the Universe
Member # 335

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posted 05-09-2003 12:09 AM      Profile for Anthrax   Author's Homepage   Email Anthrax   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dune is one of my favorite series. Unfortunately Mr. Herbert went a little crazy and wrote Dune Messiah and Chapterhouse: Dune and then died. The Honored Matres were really stupid.

I liked the two miniseries even though they totally skimmed over Dune Messiah.

The new novels are trash and are full of inconsistencies. I read the House trilogy and I'm too afraid of what they've done to the Butlerian Jihad to read the new ones. Apparently instead of having Jehanne Butler be a fucking loony who hates letting computers do all the work while humans can sit back and relax they've made it about some evil supercomputer that's enslaved mankind and Butler is a saviour or something. Fucking dumb and has pretty much nothing to do with the main story of Dune. It should've remained as some unclear event in ancient history.

Apparently Brian Herbert and his Star Wars novel writing friend Kevin J. Anderson have found a rough draft of Dune 7 and are going to "fix it up" and release it. Unless they haven't already, I've been avoiding the new Dune novels.

[ 05-09-2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Anthrax ]

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She told The Associated Press she first realized her son was mentally ill in 1996 when he killed her oldest child, a 25-year-old woman who suffered from cerebral palsy, by beating her with a dumbbell.

From: Somebody put shit in my pants! | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 05-09-2003 01:11 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So let me tell you about the new novels, then.

<Read: SPOILERS ABOUT THE SHITTY NOVELS>

The ones that take place as direct prequels to the Dune series aren't wretched, but they aren't good. Like, on Caladan in one of the books, Leto is attacked by a Lightning Elemental while he is at sea.

I wish I were joking.

Their initial info went like this:

"Hey, we umm... found a manuscript. And it was an outline of what was supposed to happen in the Dune universe. So we decided to flesh it out some, and write more books in that universe. No, you can't see the manuscript. It's a secret. We have it in a safe place, trust us. Don't worry, we're going to be very consistent with the original books."

Then these craptacular books started appearing. From the cover, they looked like books that might take place in the world of Dune. In practice, they were fan fiction written by people who didn't like the original series. It shows mass disdain for the original books, and I suspect that it's actually because Frank's son has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

Like, I've read the books. But I haven't paid for them, and won't. The second and third in the direct prequel line were about the same as the first- they have a few things going for them (the overall plot involving the fight between the Tlielaxu and the Ix is interesting), but overall the plots are overdone and silly (the Harkonnen have a no-ship, which they finally manage to eliminate conveniently, along with the one guy that knows how to build it: the line was something like "that way we'll have the only one", when the Harkonnen would *never* think that, they would think "Let's build a goddamned army of these fuckers").

Anyway, the drug analogies, the practice of implying that the human mind is infinite in capability... all of these things don't really show up ever at all. Basically, anything Frank would have written, these guys don't. The theme is totally off. Like, you know how Dune was abouth the environment and the interrelatedness thereof? These dudes don't. It's fucking *taught* in Lit classes, and these guys know shit, or pretend to (authors will actually add inconsistency to show disdain for a series: Niven almost did it with Known Space, he reveals in a compilation).

The uberprequels, the Butlerian Jihad trilogies, basically take every character Frank wrote about as historical and fucks them up. The story was supposed to be a fanatical cleansing of machines that think. It turned into Terminator 2. To their credit, the model used by them is not totally bullshit, but they have to try way to hard to do some shit. For instance, the humans are kept as slaves. This doesn't make much sense. If you are robots, you design other, nonthinking robots to do your fucking chores, you don't waste time and effort feeding the goddamn future rebellion and having them do in much more time than it normally would take you to do it, whatever shit you need done. Supposedly, they keep them around to study them (there are noble families on planets elsewhere). But why slaves? I mean, a computer wouldn't fucking *think* of that. It would keep them in kennels or something, or give them limited autonomy to observe them.

Additionally, there's this stupid fucking scene where they do some kind of hysterectomy to Ms. Butler, thus assuring that she can stick around to annoy us with a serious chip on her shoulder. Because it isn't possible to regrow a uterus one million billion years in the future, even with fucking cyborgs walking around, and it certainly isn't possible to take a cell, strip some genes, combine it with sperm, and implant that in a surrogate mother (not possible today, but damn close), or just fucking CLONE YOURSELF (possible today)...

Because these dumbfucks writing don't know shit.

Now, there are two other things we see invented: the "hyperspace" trick they use, and the shield. The Dune shields are pretty interesting, and designed to keep swords current. Basically, if you throw a rock at one, it will constrict around the rock, slowing it. If it hits you, it won't be hard. Shoot a bullet, and it will constrict around it harshly, forcing the air to crackle and stealing its momentum totally. Slowly stab someone, though, and you can get through. It hates momentum.

However, against lasers, it's interesting. The laser explodes, kaboom! So does the shield generator.

In the proper series, this was invented in the distant past by some genius. Well, in this book, we learn that the genius is an arrogant fool, and some idiot dwarf woman does it. Really, really, really lame. It's even stereotypically 90s tripe.

There are also sorceresses. They appear to have real magic, and no explanation is every really given. I'll let them solve this one in a book or two, but I suspect they think that telepathic chicks that can kill you by looking at you are A-OK in the Dune world, meaning that they totally missed a key point Frank had (though it was kinda bullshit)- it's all science. Even the wacky stuff. Like, the Bene Gesserit have the "Voice", which is explained as some fucked up neural gimmick. I didn't like it too much, but it's plain that the goddamn Jedi are not for this reality.

The foldspace tech, which lets them effectively move faster than light, has apparently not been invented yet. As a bit of background, the normal story goes like this: before the Butlerian Jihad, computers calculated what was going on when it came to moving around through space and not hitting stars and shit, something that's apparently possible in foldspace. Afterword, with computers banned, the prescient navigators (using spice for their prescience) could safely move a ship somewhere without losing it.

This made about as much sense as anything else, and served Frank's purpose of making the spice really important for anyone trying to go anywhere: it was vital to humanity.

Here, however, it hasn't been invented BUT EVERYONE STILL LIVES IN OUTERSPACE. Like, are they moving sublightspeed? Cause that's impossible to tell the story. Or are they moving faster than light, something that makes as much sense shit falling upwards being the natural state of things? And if there's some way to get around without foldships or whatever the fuck they have, why does no one use that shit in the future?

The last one is irreconcilible. The rest you have to *care* to be bothered by. But ignoring the speed of light is not how to tell the story, period.

Wretched, awful, shit.

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Anthrax
Ultimate Authoritative Power in the Universe
Member # 335

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posted 05-09-2003 02:19 AM      Profile for Anthrax   Author's Homepage   Email Anthrax   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MORE SPOILERS OR SOMETHING

cfalcon: In the proper series, this was invented in the distant past by some genius. Well, in this book, we learn that the genius is an arrogant fool, and some idiot dwarf woman does it. Really, really, really lame.

They made Holtzmann a bad guy?! I've got a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia at home, and I'm pretty sure Holtzmann was a genius hero that got into some sort of accident and got cyborged and went to go live in outer space for a few hundred years. When he came back to share with humanity all the cool stuff he invented/discovered/whatever, Butler and her fanatics killed him just because he was a cyborg.

As far as I'm concerned these new prequels are just fanfics and Jehanne Butler is still a crazy evil bitch.

The inconsistencies in the House series are really pretty unbelievable. I mean since when are House Atreides and Ix buddies? I read all of those books expecting Leto's Ixian buddy to get killed because hey, HE WASN'T MENTIONED EVER AND IF HE WAS LETO'S ALLEY HE SURELY WOULD'VE BEEN MENTIONED. But no, he just gets cyborged and lives happily ever after. Also, the Ixians were pretty much disliked by everyone and Ix wasn't run by a house. They were like the Bene Tleilax only less respected. And how does a no-ship exist? Unless I'm mistaken the first mention of a no-dome/no-field/no-whatever is in God Emperor of Dune. And the synthetic spice program. I don't even think synthetic spice is actually created until sometime during the end of Leto II's reign, but apparently they've been working on for thousands of years. And those dumb knives Fenring uses that were completely pointless. Argh, stupid stuff. It wasn't even worth reading them for the "ORIGINS OF YOUR FAVORITE CHARACTERS EXPLAINED" aspect.

From: Somebody put shit in my pants! | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Lark84
My skeleton is made of creamy nougat.
Member # 1186

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posted 05-09-2003 01:36 PM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am not sure if I have read only the first book, or several of them... I have a book entitled just "DUNE", and in the contents, it says "first book: the desert planet, second book: muad'dib, third book: the prophet"... Maybe it's written like that.

Fucking excellent book, though. Words cannot describe how I felt when reading it. There's just too much cool stuff going on. I tried to write a summary about what was so cool, but I couldn't.

The miniseries sucked IMO. I can't put my finger on it, though, it was just generallly bad. The only good thing about it was the sandworms. And they totally screwed up the ornithopters: they're supposed to flap their wings!

Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Pornbot
I AM A GAY FAGGOT GAY
Member # 1321

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posted 05-09-2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Pornbot   Author's Homepage   Email Pornbot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hey guys sci fi channel is pretty gay u no [Eek!]
From: Auschwitz | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
Member # 13

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posted 05-09-2003 04:09 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it is boring.
From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Thom Burr
Farting Nudist
Member # 1267

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posted 05-09-2003 09:10 PM      Profile for Thom Burr   Email Thom Burr   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"They made Holtzmann a bad guy?! I've got a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia at home, and I'm pretty sure Holtzmann was a genius hero that got into some sort of accident and got cyborged and went to go live in outer space for a few hundred years."

Heh, I have a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia, too. That's probably my favorite "Dune" book of all, really. (Even if, or maybe, because, Herbert didn't write it.) You could knock off a couple dozen sci-fi epics with the stuff they threw into there. Holtzmann was one my very favotite stories, too.

But the entries on the various Duncan Idahos take the cake. Those were hilarious.

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This is not a signature.

Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Muffin King
Farting Nudist
Member # 2240

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posted 05-09-2003 10:49 PM      Profile for The Muffin King   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm really not far into the series. I picked up the first one about a week ago, and now I'm just starting Children of Dune. I felt bad for Chani. =(

I haven't read the new ones yet, but it makes me sad to find out that they suck. I mean, are they that bad?

From: Maryland | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
Member # 1916

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posted 05-10-2003 12:06 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What the hell is Dune.....

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Weezing!

From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
Member # 1645

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posted 05-10-2003 05:20 PM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I started reading the first one recently on my friend's recommendation, and kinda like it, but I'm not blown away or anything. Lotta really clever/interesting ideas about the universe, but at the same time, I'm finding it a bit sterile to read through. It sucks that there's no real closure. Definitely going to finish the first, and at least start the next, though if it gets as weird as cfalcon seems to suggest, I might pull the plug.

Also, George R.R. Martin is awesome and everyone should read A Song of Ice and Fire right now. (had to get that in)

From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 05-11-2003 02:39 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Look, don't ask what Dune is. It's a book. A really good book. It's also a series of books, but don't read those unless you really like the first book (I sure did).

Oh, one more thing: in the homo Butlerian Jihad book, the shield generator explodes when the laser hits it, *but not the laser*. Whether the idiots missed that detail or decided to change it deliberately, I don't know. In defense of the change, the original situation didn't totally make sense, so whatever.

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Anthrax
Ultimate Authoritative Power in the Universe
Member # 335

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posted 05-11-2003 03:02 AM      Profile for Anthrax   Author's Homepage   Email Anthrax   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought if a shield got hit with a lasgun blast it would cause a small atomic detonation which is why shields weren't allowed in battles or something.
From: Somebody put shit in my pants! | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 05-11-2003 05:02 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
(on topic)

Well, in the original book, a lasgun (they call them lasers in the past, aka the Butlerian Jihad book: I don't know if they are in fact actually lasers or not) would detonate with atomic like force, as would the shield generator. Two big explosions, and I think the lasguns were banned in combat, not the shields (remember all the slow shooting maula pistols and shit to get through shields). Their pseudoscience for the explosion was something involving the word "resonance", but that creates some problems. Notably, why not have a bank of multiple lasers? You set a focal point, and then the fire in sequence. No "resonance field" would be able to be set up, because each individual laser would be off before it hit the shield. So either the guns aren't actually lasers, but something similar and more useful in battle, or they just forgot shit.

Anyway, Holtzmann as a kinda bad guy is really lame. See, the people have slaves. Holtzmann does too, and the slaves form banks that solve equations, something which doesn't make any sense at all (supposedly they still have computers, just not many, and Holtzmann lives on a planet where the guy is really paranoid: it's stupid, because even a shitty computer today can move *millions* of times faster than a whole planet full of computing slaves: Holtzmann would just go somewhere else). The woman, the "good guy" in the story there, doesn't like the slavery (thus eliminating any chance of a deep character: everybody is monodimensional and set up to modern specifications), and is also the force behind the actual Holtzmann shield. They also make his earlier field (it eliminates all the computer minds in range) into a lucky accident.

I think they had this mad scientist concept, and then fucked it up.

(off topic)

They could have just fucking put Tesla in the book. Truth's better than fiction: "insane six foot something virginal croatian inspired to create basis for entire goddamn power system still in use today by really pretty sunset" is way fucking better than anything those hacks could write.

Tesla also did all sorts of shit that everyone elso has the patents on first. X-rays, radio transmissions (he built an RC boat), etc. He was so much smarter than his whole goddamn century it's embarrasing.

One of my favorites was this idea for a centralized analog system that had a bunch of features. Then he listed the features.

It's basically a list of what the internet is today.

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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