Yes, the city of the racial police and the polluted rivers. Well, we are once again showing how immature people can be.

Examples:
1) The Muslim leader here has been threatened repeatedly, and must even have police gurding him. We've already arrested one man on accounts of verbal harrassment. Geez, people can be such jerks.

2) At least two Gas sstations raised their prices to $4.00 a gallon! Luckily, most of the more SENSIBLE stations have kept their prices around normal ($1.50-$1.70).

3) At my school, mostly people are joking about it , but in english we had a discussion, and mostly we are divided into two responses: Blow their asses off the planet, or, Stop the killing.

My opinion in this: Once we know, beyond a reasonable doubt, who orchestrated this, bomb them. Or, we have the power, flatten the mountains, and invade. I have a Patriotism I never knew. But they must pay, and we must be ruthless. We did not start this, and I cannot be moved. As GWB said, if the country harboring whomever did this won't give them to us, then blow them off the map. They must pay.

However, I enjoy argueing, so someone, please, disagree, and give me good SOLID proof that we should not bomb them under these circumstances: We know who, beyond any reasonable doubt, AND the country harboring them won't give 'em to us. I repeat my prvious post:

quote:

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This was not just an attack on us, but an attack on all freedom.

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And, if anyone wants to know, I only have AIM, but my s/n is UnholyCumulus78 if you wish to argue in real time. Either way, I will post the result here, whether I win or lose. I will try to be around 9-12 PM (EST)

Thank you for staying with me through all my rantings and ravings...

[edit] The one possibility that I have no idea of what to do is if we simply capture him, without killing him. How would any of you handle that?

quote:

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Originally posted by Rei the Giant Koffing:
Actually, this whole thing is a big prank.
Eventually, Bush is gonna come forward and say, "Gotcha!" only to be killed by angery mobs.

Then the americans live happily ever after...or something.

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All together now: "Rei2 is a fucking moron".

An update from Halifax, NS:

-The International Airport here took in 25 planes, with about 1500 people getting unexpected holidays. They are staying in sports arenas and schools, mainly. My brother attends the community college near my house, which is closed to students until Monday.

-The Armed Forces are still on high alert. That's why you haven't seen me lately: Mom needs the phone lines open in case they call her in for whatever reason. (Right now, I'm at work).

-Planes that were flying from Europe to the US will be sent back to the take-off point, and then flown to the intended destination.

-The Canadian equivalent to Headline News in the US has been pumping coverage non-stop for the past three days. Heck, I saw TNN do a Bin Laden profile on Tuesday night, so this must be serious.

-According to the WWF, Smackdown will air as planned tonight on UPN and Teh Score. However, it will air live instead of taped. (WWF's respect greatly fell!)

-Major League Baseball, the NFL, the PGA, the NHL, and most other sports federations have cancelled their events planned for this weekend. The only exception is the LPGA. This means that the baseball playoffs could stretch into November if the World Series goes 7 games.

Rather than reply to everyone that I felt the need to reply to at one point or another on this thread, I'll simply post a picture I drew in MSPaint about 10 minutes ago that more or less expresses my feelings on the whole matter:

You'll either find it extremely offensive (I've already been called an “insensitive fucking asshole” in IRC for it), or find it to be a nice showing of American Pride.

And yes, I also think any tie-ins that Counter-Strike has to this scenario should be quite positive...the last thing I want is for the feds to be all over my favorite video game because it may or may not encourage this kind of thing.

quote:

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Originally posted by StarCaliber:
Well, I've read the entire thread, and I now have a much better understanding as to who here doesn't know shit, and who's worth listening to. Thanks for posting, guys.

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This is why I just keep my mouth closed on subjects like this, it's too early to know anything for sure still IMO.

As for the pic, that thing Sama posted was a latter by a Canadian Journalist. My U.S. History teacher read it to us last year.

quote:

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Originally posted by Crazed Aipom:
This is why I just keep my mouth closed on subjects like this, it's too early to know anything for sure still IMO.[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Crazed Aipom ]

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This is why you are weak and stupid.

This is up on my "Things that Piss the Hell out of me" list, with arrogance and lies.

Why exactly is learning, thinking and reflecting before jumping to conclusions and shooting your mouth off stupid?

quote:

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Originally posted by The Vengful Gligar Man:
Wut was that for crazed aipom?

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TRANSLATION:
I am weak and afraid of being criticized or wrong or whatever my irrational fear is... so I'm going to be quiet and weak and let you all know.

Anyway, this is the wrong place to be fighting about this. Back on topic...

Cheebawulf, the problem with attacking Bin Laden right now is this:

We have no solid solid evidence Bin Laden did this (though we almost do). If we attack him now, it could generate sympathy for Arabs around the world by other countries. On the other hand, if we don't, it leaves us open to another attack... a tough call.

I wanted to mention also to Mick_Hale:

Don't worry about America attacking Israel. Though those bastard Arabs were partying over our loss, that doesn't have anything to do with Israel, and besides, they do not have the motives nor resources to attack us like that right now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Footitch:
>> This is why I just keep my mouth closed on subjects like this, it's too early to know anything for sure still IMO.

TRANSLATION:
I am weak and afraid of being criticized or wrong or whatever my irrational fear is... so I'm going to be quiet and weak and let you all know.

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One word:
Uh?

So he becomes a martyr to a bunch of dumbasses, big woop! He's still dead, etc.. etc... America rules, etc... etc... You don't mess with America, etc.. etc...

1)The US is merciful (unlikely in the Middle East, many people there have been sired on hatred for the west in general, and the US in particular)
2)The US must be influenced with terrorism (current mode of thinking in the middle east, likely to be reinforced by any inaction).

However, a strong military action can also lead to 2 ways of thinking.

1)The US is cruel and despotic (the current thoughts throughout the US right now, unlikely to change anytime soon)
2)The US is not to be fucked with (unlikely, these people are used to seeing death, and the ante is somewhat greater for them, being religious in nature).

Essentially, it seems that either action is fucked either way. Personally, I feel the best way to go about it would be:

1)Harsh retribution for the attack first. Not only does this give the image of justice to the world, it also appeases the need for revenge which nearly everyone is feeling right now.

2)Infiltration of the sympathetic governments and terrorist cells. Part of the problem is that the people themselves are constantly bombarded by anti-western propaganda. Subtle changes in this self-perpetuating cycle could gradually sway public opinion. This will be a very slow effect, however.

3)US money should flow into the Middle east to upgrade infrastructure, thereby not only improving the standard of living (people are a lot less prone to rage if their lives are comfortable), but also giving them a chance to see our version of the truth through a better information network. More funds and aid coming from the US should help to break the "serpent's head" image. However, they may deny assistance out of pride in certain cases.

I've been speaking with people who have been there, and they say the conditions are atrocious in certain areas, while being excellent in others. This discrepancy is due greatly to uneven political and economic support from western nations, and the fanatical organizations use this as very powerful ammunition to sway the public (who are for the most part poor as dirt and stifled by warfare) onto their side. However, I doubt that the public would be willing to bite the hand that feeds them, and if they do, then we actually do have justification to strike back harshly at a later date.

This method will alter their culture (making it more western through clandestine methods), but shit, are things working out the way they are?

MewtwoSama:
G.W. Bush
Albuquerque, N.M.
Aug. 15, 2001

And check this out from GameFAQs message board:

In this time of national crisis in the US (where most GameFAQs visitors live), emotions are intense and tension is high. If you post messages making light of or celebrating the terrorist attacks, you will face harsh moderation. Many users have already been banned and even had their ISPs blacklisted from the site, and you will join them should you not take this seriously. If you don't care about what happened or don't feel the same way as everyone else, then pick another topic to post about, or do it somewhere else.

A new board specifically for discussing the tragedy has been created, although discussion is also welcome on any Social board. Please do not create new topics discussing the matter on any non-social board; they will be deleted or moved to the appropriate board from here on out.

Edit: Fixed up spacing.

Some Americans are always pointing the finger at people without solid proof. Now everyone is going against Muslims, they can't go outside without expecting verbal harrasment.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cesar:
Some people can be real jerks.

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quote:

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Am very pissed this week, not because the WTC collapsed, but because they had to cancel both Married With Children and Junkyard Wars just so I could hear the stupid story over again for the 5th and 6th time.

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We don't know for sure who did it, but it was probably Bin Laden. If not, he should be hunted down anyway for his role in past attacks.

The U.S. is cruel and despotec

Obviously the ones who did this (not to mention most of the middle east) think something like this already. Also, whoever did the post on how we get nothing in return, you are exactly right. If we stopped pouring federal dollars into countries right now, I'd like to see what the rest of the world would do. If the U.S only cared about itself and did nothing for other nations, half the world would be completely different, not saying that it's a good idea. Supposedly Bush wants to wage an all-out campaign on terrorism in general. Nuking the middle east is not the answer, but he has a good idea if the U.S is ready for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rysto:
Speaking of opportunitists, PikeCharma:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/World/Religion_News/

Doesn't that make you sick?

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WHAT??? OMG. Yup. Those would be opportunists all right. Damn. That logic is fucked. Saying that type of shit in the name of Jesus is beyond fucked.

I'm sure the families of the victims will greatly appreciate America's religious leaders announcing a bunch of psycho murderers were doing god's work. Americans need to be united now more than ever. How disgusting that someone could use a tragedy like this as a springboard for not only furthering his own purpose, but for promoting *more* hate, *more* anger, and turning Americans against one another. Sick sick sick.

No, that's wrong. I'm being as small-minded as Falwell. It's not religions, it's that some people are just plain evil.

quote:

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That's a lame way to reply to this thread. You're just worried about missing repeats of a television show? What if you'd lost loved ones?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cesar:
I didn't. If the crash did occur locally, then I would care. But until then...

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This makes me think of a political cartoon I saw on the Web earlier today. I don't have the link, but it was published on Sept. 13, 2001, created by Ted Rall of New York City, and it's called "Worlds of Separation." I quote directly:

quote:

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If you haven't heard from someone, is it reasonable to assume that they're dead?
What if you think someone you care about is dead? How much should you grieve?
If someone you know but aren't particularly close to is dead, how much should you hurt?
If it's someone you've actively disliked but you would never have wished dead, are you allowed to feel upset?
If you don't know any of the victims, how much should you care?
You are a victim.

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Robertson and others on the religious right gave critical backing to Bush last year when he was battling for the GOP presidential nomination.

quote:

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Originally posted by White Cat:
Huh? What is this about?

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Wake the fuck up. Twenty or so of these people spent several *YEARS* training to be pilots so that they could kill themselves and others by CRASHING COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS INTO SKYSCRAPERS.

How much more motivated could they get, really?

"They killed Osama bin Laden! Now instead of merely devoting all my earthly years to learning how I can trade my pathetic life for the maximum amount of American blood, I'm gonna get really crazy! Watch me eat this glass! ARRMMM!!!"

Come on.

If anything, the success of this operation could easily encourage new converts to this operation.

While I'm not thrilled about a long, drawn out war in hostile territory, with our soldiers ordered not to harm "innocents" (with the hostiles and non-hostiles being discernible for half a second before the explosion), I'm willing to acknowledge that this can't go unanswered.

Heck, I'm pretty pissed about this.

It's worth noting that Osama may not have personally ordered this- he runs an umbrella organization that funds and talks to smaller organization: these smaller organizations are certainly willing to accept funding from plenty of places (Iraq, etc.).

Note, however, that before this ever happened Osama still had enough blood on his hands to justify a multinational manhunt, and has said that it is a valid goal to kill each and every American. Please don't feel immune to this just because you're some other kind of westerner: if you have a nice roof over your head, a decent education, and you wack off to Internet pr0n like the rest of us, he wants you dead.

I'm OK with killing him, I'm certainly in favor of it (I like the idea of people who would like to kill me meeting unfortunate ends), and it really won't end up being a bad idea- because we aren't really going after just him.

The "War on Terrorism" might be a little dubious, but this is no "War on Drugs" here. Will it upset them? Yes. Will we see more violence? Almost certainly. Their attacks could hit anywhere (but be reasonably small scale) with their current level of technology. What if we give them a decade to fish up some nukes? Want a nuclear van parked in NY next?

Will it end terrorism? Probably not. But a wacko who blows up a plane is one thing: An organization that systematically plans out and pays thousands of dollars to get accomplish these goals is another. That isn't a crazy or dedicated individual- that's an organization. In fact, it's the kind of crazy shit you read about in comic books and stuff.

I would also like to point out tha Bush has been impressing me, even if it takes him four sentences and three retries on the hard words to spit out one sentence worth of information sometimes. I liked him better than Gore, but that didn't say much... He's been handling this one very well.

Here's the funny part: *any* president would handle this the same way. I don't think there's much room for arguement: I hear Democrats echoing the same ideas as Republicans, because "Americans shouldn't be killed by foreigners on our own soil" is extremely nonpartisan.

I wasn't offended by his religious remarks, but then I wouldn't be (well, I would recognize a subtle attempt at conversion as being in very poor taste, because even though religion is a strong rallying point, it shouldn't be leaned on too heavily in a society with official seperation between church and state).

Now the wacko comments of those two right wingers made me see red. While the comments aren't as bad as the press implied in the headlines (they didn't say it was, say, all the fault of gays), it pissed me off enough to yell at my monitor, and I usually only do that when Windows forgets where it put its opcodes.

I'm pissed when someone claims that God is doing something to reward or punish a group because of it's actions, because:

(A) We can show scientifically that isn't the case.
(B) It implies that when something bad happens, people deserved it. This is a sick way of thinking that legitimizes the suffering of those who are lacking in any way. Those naughty, wicked Jews! God sent them the Nazis because they didn't convert... Ugh. Sick, sick, fucks that think like this.
(C) It implies that the succesful are without flaw. While this method of thinking has merit (and is prevalent in our society: it encourages effort and success), as a moral guideline it is sorely lacking.
(D) It implies not just powers of observation, but insight into the mind of God. If I were God, I wouldn't have created humans. So clearly I don't "get" what being God is about. Whether you believe in God or not, claiming to know the mind of God is arrogant and silly.

I could probably go on. I could talk about how it is just sick to try to blame gays and pro-choice citizens (and the ACLU) for any part of the horrible terrorism, but I won't.

Anyway, I had a big thing typed up yesterday, and them my computer crashed, so I'll submit before this also dies...

The cleric, I don't recall his name, clarified that the Islamic faith does not promote suicide for the sake of a "just" cause. In fact, he stated that if anyone gives the excuse that it was done "for religious reasons", it's total crap. Not true.

Damn.

quote:

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Originally posted by MewtwoSama:

Read the entire post and find out.

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The suicide bombings have increased. There's too many of them.