quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Dreamer:
Like I said before Mr.E, NO ONE can put a whole team to sleep without your cooperation, you just have to have enough skill to counter it.
...and as far as being fair, a fully powered up of the infamus Tobybro variant: Slowblow is not very fair either.
Is not about being fair, is about knowing how to counter certain strateges and you feel that way because you obviously wouldn't know what to do if you were fighting a sleeper trainer, but that's O.K., as long as you're willing to expand your skills and learn how to deal with that situation there will be hope for you yet...

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I think I could count you as a sleeper trainer...and besides, I can get around it. It's just annoying though and much slower...

Mustn't... laugh... Must be... polite...

Aww, what the heck. BWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!!!!

Anyway, here's my attempt at making a non-sucky Lickitung:

Swords Dance
Screech
Earthquake
Hyper Beam

First do one SD and one Screech, so the enemy will take 4x damage from attacks. Hopefully, you'll survive long enough to attack once or twice before dying.

(Hmm, Licki's staying power isn't that bad. Maybe Rest should go on there somewhere. If only his Attack was halfway decent, he would be pretty good...)

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You may know me as Booster6th. Please visit my website at http://lanturn.cjb.net!

Okay, Sleep Clause is the only one I agree with...eh, even then, Sleep Powder isn't the most accurate move out there, it just takes some thinking to get past. Now once G/S hits the shelfs and kids start running around with Sporether on R/B/Y, I might think differently...

Freeze Clause is a load of crap, you're right. If there were some move with 50% freeze rate, I'd think differently, but it's a random status effect, so they're telling me that my Ice Beam/Sub/DT/Rest Articuno after taking five minutes to setup, cant attack anymore after one lucky Ice Beam? I think not.

Eh, Suicide Clause is crap, MewX clause is crap, Species Clause is common sense IMO, I wouldn't take a team of six M2s-- well, maybe I would, but still, that'd be redundant and just plain idiotic...that'd literally be out for a Win High. But yeah, at times I'd kill have to have two, I don't know, Zapdoses, one with T-Wave/T-Bolt/Reflect/Flash and the other with the classic DT/Rest setup.

In closing, I fully agree that most of the time when people call something "cheap", they're really not willing to deal with it...sometimes it is because it's unbalanced, but still they need to deal with it...

Heh, atleast WotC has the balls to ban cards they feel are too powerful and to curtain powerful decks...now why cant they do that for the TCG?

-Rain Dance

Diglett almost didn't survive a hyperbeam from a BUTTERFREE! Now who wants that pokemon on their team??

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After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

Well, as has been mentioned, that's not entirely fair, since Diglett isn't a final evo.

Also, if it'd used Rock Slide, Butterfree would have been dead much earlier.

But anyway, I just wanted to mention that the Suicide Clause is not krap. If both Pokemon die, it's a tie, and they don't have time to deal with tie-breakers in tourneys.

I think the other clauses they have are perfectly legit, but I could see how someone could take issue with most of them. Except maybe for multiple instances of the same Pokemon. One Mewtwo is already excessive, but 3 is ridiculous.

Yeah, especially the Fighting types, Poison types, Bug types, Psychic types, Amnesia, Mewtwo...

Okay, Sleep Clause is the only one I agree with...eh, even then, Sleep Powder isn't the most accurate move out there, it just takes some thinking to get past. Now once G/S hits the shelfs and kids start running around with Sporether on R/B/Y, I might think differently...

Ugh, newbies. Spore CANNOT be bred onto anything other than Paras(ect). PERIOD!

Freeze Clause is a load of crap

I think it's a good idea, but only when it can be enforced by the program preventing you from getting a second freeze (i.e. Stadium). On Gameboy/PBS though, it's ludicrous to disqualify someone because of the games natural workings.

"It doesn't take that much "skill" to decide on just 4 moves for a Pokemon and put it into action."
Not the moves Fanha "putting them into action" is where the skill is.

"The game of Pokemon is mostly about playing the numbers and luck."
You forggot pattern reading, memory, knowledge of your opponent and intuition...

"The problem is, considering the playing field is fair, almost any Pokemon can level Beedrill easily."
IF you front a beedrill against most pokés, yes, but if you want a beedrill to work you must manipulate the battle so it can power up.

"No matter how hard you try, a 10 will never be able to be higher than a 20. That's just how it is."
But if the 20 is not able to do anything to the 10 or gets overconfident or plays right into the 10's mind game is not much use.
David and Goliath...

"Beedrill/Butterfree/Lickitung have inferior stats in general, and if your opponent is at least close to how good you are, you mathematically have very little chance. And the fact is, that chance is determined by luck, not your "skill"."
Not true at all, luck is not the only factor here Fanha and that is what you fail to see.
By manipulating your opponent through mindgames, cold reading, intuition ect...you can win chances to your favor.

"Sleep takes the skill out of the game."
That's not true, it takes out most EMG tactics but not skill, it just becomes a new way of prioritizing your actions like a Stasis deck in Magic: The Gathering.

"How easy is it to just run on luck of how long they stay asleep? Anyone can do that."
That's not true either because if it is just luck like you claim it would work both ways.

"It's just an issue of who starts using sleep first."
That's not true either. You haven't played much against sleepers, have you Fanha?
Your conclusions are way off when it comes to countering sleep I know plenty of ways.
There pleanty of things you can do when asleep but most trainers haven't had the determination to figure out how, but I have and it takes skill and is difficult.
It requires good cold reading much scouting some skill with EMG and intuition always helps, luck is a nice bonus or nasty penalty.

"If there were no Sleep clause, all you would have to do (in G/S for this example) to win would be to BT in a Parasect with Agility and Spore everything in site which Swords Dancing in your spare time and using Leech Life/Mega Drain/Body Slam/etc. to slowly take them down."
O.K. I don't know much about G&S but from what I have gathered that tactic can be countered with a healthy metal pokémon or use a move called Sleep Walk so I gather, don't even know if this move really exists but people say that is like a metronome you can do only during sleep and is limited to your own moves. Pack and anti-sleeper pokémon with this move and Fire or Flying attack in the moveset somewhere and makes it a nastry answer to sleep.
I also heard that there are some moves you can only do while sleeping.
IF this is rue it will balance sleep more so it requires less skill to counter.

"The fact is using sleep has nothing to do with skill: it's entirely luck, so it really is a sad paradox for Butterfree and the like."
Not true, Sleeper Hold requires skill to pull off and build and a bit of luck. A Paradox is only a failure to percieve a situation.

"Skill and sleep are completely opposite."
To you maybe, but that is not true.

"Sleep is entirely based on luck, which, no matter how skilled a trainer is, they can't control."
Not true either, you can controll it to a certain extent, like controlling a Black Jack deck.

"Using sleep just turns it into a game of dice; that's not skill at all."
Not true.
This is sleep we're talking about, not metronome! =^P

"Sleep Clause tones down the luck factor in that way. The fact is someone against a lucky sleeper has lost before the game has started, so there's no use playing the game."
That right there is a clear indication that you don't have the slightest idea on how to counter sleep.

"If you think a sleep team requires skill and you have that kind of "skill", I wouldn't be playing Pokemon, I'd be in Las Vegas earning something off that "skill"."
Actually Fanha there are people here in Las Vegas that go around casinos and manipulate odds with skills to earn money.
They have mathematical formulas to calculate chances and probability and use sometimes intuition for judgement. These people are often banned from casinos if the dealer notices that they are too good at this.
Is not illegal but casinos have the right to 86 (ban from business property) anyone they want and clearly they don't want anyone skilled to earn a little cash with hard mindwork, they want ignorant people to come in that can't see the patterns, depend on just on luck and loose...and yes, I live in Las Vegas and no I don't know the mathematical formulas for it.
I know how to do a bit of that in Pokémon, but you know what they say...
"You must learn to crawl before you learn to walk..." =^)

"Kamikaze clause is in place so some fool doesn't just same as Sword Dancing Mew until last, Sword Dance once or twice, then guarentee their victory with an overwhelming attack which will, in this case, cost them nothing more than a simple Body Slam."
Assuming you let all your pokémon get K.O.ed and he didn't have to use that mew AT ALL during the fight...

"I Kamikaze clause is necessary to keep people from using this to their advantage."
That's the point of a game, to use your tools to your advantage...I never heard of a game that had tools for you to use that worked AGAINST your advantage...is redundant!

"Otherwise, you're just save Mew until last, use a Swords Dance, then win the game in two moves, with almost no way to counter."
Get a pokémon to front it, specialy if is a durable pokémon and happens to be asleep, opponent get's overconfident and predictable and Block with a rock or ghost...or just but the self-destructo poké to sleep... ~_^

"Kamikazes are good, but shouldn't be the end of the game; otherwise, the cost for the high damage isnt' truly paid."
I agree with you there, just don't put yourself in that position.

"As far as Freeze Clause, as long as it's programmed in, I'm happy. If it's not, then I have no position. It's not fair for one player no matter which way you go."
Yup, Freeze is absolutely sick, it must have a low chance rate to balance it and IMO is perfectly balanced...

"Get your head out of the clouds; this isn't an ant farm, it's a viedo game."
You said it, it's a game I was just playing along next time I'll leave a =^P just for you, O.K. Fanha?

"Species clause ENCOURAGES creativity by forcing variety."
Forcing variety? But that's not FREEDOM of creativity, what if I want to use 2 porygons!? Species clause is stupid I have the right to be dull if I choose to and this is forcing to do something you don't want to do, even if is "right".
It just rapes Free Will...

"Would you rather everyone just play 6 Mewtwos? Okay then."
Not everyone will and those who do will be dealt with having just one well placed anti-mewtwo pokémon sweeping it away.
The more of one specie of pokémon you have the more weaknesses your team has, is the prize you pay therefore it is balanced...

"Seriously, we're not going to make exceptions either just so some not-so-useful Pokemon can become good."
YOU are not going to make exceptions but you're not thinking on other people just yourself because you do not care about pokés that have weak statistics. Selfish.
What of the girl who becomes so glad that after long periods of testing he finally she can make a team of just clefables AND make it work? You don't care. You're not thinking about the other trainers that MIGHT just MIGHT feel differently towards certain pokémon.

"The fact is, Butterfree was not DESIGNED to be good. Period."
No, not period, that is not true.
Have you tried to make frees work?
How hard have you tried?
Metapods were not designed to be good butterfrees were designed with the potential to be good when unlocked like a strategic puzzle, but IMO you don't see that all you do is look at the statistic numbers and the numbers of the moves those pokés can learn.
You're missing the mind games, EMG, team support, ect...

"It was designed to be unplayble at Prime Cup level."
Not true, I have used mine to finish Prime Cup the butterfly was not the star of my team but it gave me key moment that build up to my success.

"The thing is, we can't alter the game's design, so Butterfree has little or no chance at being decent."
The only altering here is the altering of the natural rules of the game Nintendo has defiled it with it's limitations!
Who do you think knows more about Pokémon strategy, Nintendo(middleman company out to cash out on the product) or Game freak(the designers of the game)!?
That's why Stadium(Nintendo) has limitations and G&S nor any future Pokémon expansion will!

"In that case, I'll play 6 Mewtwos forever, end of discussion; that'll be the winner's way to go."
If you want to be THAT vulnerable fine with me, I'll just be waiting with a team of sleepers with a Champion beedrill waiting to nuke their genetic engineered asses! =^P

"I'm sure that's what you want out of a game, hm? Seriously, in that case, I don't see Butterfree winning any time soon."
You're not seeing my point, don't stop now...

"The fact is you're going to have to rule out just about every other final evo before Butterfree becomes playable, which is adding MORE limitations..."
Not with the free enviroment the game was meant to be played, there are so many variables that have not even been touched and this is what people fail to see until they free their training styles from the handicaps and restrictions of Team Rock...er...Nintendo... =^P

quote:

---

Actually Fanha there are people here in Las Vegas that go around casinos and manipulate odds with skills to earn money.
They have mathematical formulas to calculate chances and probability and use sometimes intuition for judgement. These people are often banned from casinos if the dealer notices that they are too good at this.

---

I saw an interesting show on how players beat they odds at Las Vegas. They use computers to figure out most probable chances.

The player enters the numbers (Such as cards, Keno numbers, etc...) and the computer sees the patterns between the Random numbers. It calculates the numbers with the mathematical probabilities to show what the most probably numbers are.
The computer then shows a graph of the most probably numbers that will come next
in the next draw.

A guy won a Keno game on the first try using one of those things.

The way the computer finds the probablity in Black Jack is by seeing patterns in drawn cards. Back then, Casino dealers didn't shuffle the cards well enough to mix them completely, thus the computer can determine what cards will come out next by what pattern cards come out and then figure how the dealer shuffled the cards. (Putting the middle part of the deck in the back, then splitting it into two parts, etc...)
It's harder today to sneak these machines in because Casino surveillance not only monitor through cameras, but also radio frequencies (no radio transmitting microphones and earpieces!) and other things. A problem about the computers is that you have to conceal them somehow, so you might look suspicious wearing a winter jacket in a casino in middle of the desert.

It is illegal at casinos to use machines to figure the next numbers, but it isn't illegal to use your mind to figure it out.
(It is alot of info to swallow, though)

The bottom line is:
It's all math, folks.

Anyway onto the topic

*Smells mewtwo revisited resurrecting*

But from what I gather, in order to win with "bad" pokés, you have to have ESP or some other mind-reading ability. Against friends that we are familiar with, sure its easy to customize a team/strategy to beat him/her. But since our main goal here is to win in tourneys (im assuming) then the ppl we face, we have no idea how they play.

Without the psychological advantage and ESP, then we are stuck with maximizing odds, therefor using the best pokés available.

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"To Alcohol - The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."
- Homer

I guess you must be using your amazing mind-reading powers to know that there will never be restrictions in any future games.

Oh, and Stadium was made by GameFreak, genius.

I'd also like to point out that GameFreak has publically admitted that R/B/Y are unbalanced. I guess that settles this debate...

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"Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you."
-- Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri exit message

Well, since Sleep only lasts for a few turns in Stadium, any sort of sleep clause seems superfluous IMHO. Since there's such a small chance of freezing, I don't really have much trouble with the freeze clause as it's probably not too likely I would freeze more than two Pokemon anyway. This is particular true for 3 vs. 3 However if they removed the freeze clause I wouldn't be angry, in fact I hope they do eliminate in Gold and Silver because I think being frozen isn't the absolute death sentence that it was in RBY unless of course I have been misled.

The rule I have ABSOLUTELY no trouble with is the Species clause which makes PERFECT sense. People would abuse that with 6 Mewtwos, and that's NOT how Pokemon was meant to play. Not permitting the same species is common sense, making the player having to choose at least some diversity in his or her team and prevents others from abusing this privilege with 6 Mewtwo or 6 Mews. If you really want to play the game like that (which is very boring IMHO) you can always use the Anything Goes option in the Pokemon Stadium.

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After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

Starshelle, I am now condusting an experiment in PBS to proove that a mewtwo army can be beat with the correct skill.
I intend to put my money were my mouth is...

Pre poison is fair, and within the game.

Don't prepoison all M2s: just one or two. No bitching about unfair, cause it isn't, by the "within the game" logic ("able to be done" logic breaks down since you own the RAM and cand make pokédemigods with the shark).

Try to beat a team of 6 M2s that is run by a trainer with a head. You won't, unless you are using plenty of them too. It is is possible that some variant team (4 M2s, Toby, Chansey, as an example with no testing basis) might stand a chance: but the core game would resolve simply about lots of monsters.

If you ever did squeak out a win with the sucky guys, it would be a fluke, and complete garbage in the aggregate.

If Charizard get nothing but CH Fire Blasts, you'd swear that would be the way to go: he doesn't, but if yours did for a game, it would probably be a victory.

Now I'll give a few personal notes:

Freeze clause might be necessary, but it does seem to go against a lot. I don't like not feeling safe using Blizzard cause some dipfuck froze at 3 Hp. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, given the low chance of success of freeze moves in general... but it probably is too strong by itself.

Sleep clause is only necessary because the numbers are so in favor of anything with a sleep move. Sleeping 7 turns is hideous: Stadium almost had the right idea, but keeping an even distribution and making the max at three greatly raises the number of one's (trade evens) and two's (minor benefits) and weakens sleep beyond what should be. The fact that sleep clause is *on top* of that is inexcusable.

It isn't a balanced game.

There really isn't any debate.

There is debate, however, on what would make a better version of the rules. I figured only two species clause rules make sense:

(1)-> One of any specific monster type.
(2)-> As many of a specific monster type as can be found in any single game instance. One Mewtwo. Two Snorlaxen. 6 Raticates, if you want.

I think Nintendo went with (1) because it is simpler, but (2) would have been cool... monsters that aren't "Legendary" could appear more than once (like they do in the game).

If tournament rules limited TMs to what appears in one instance of the game, that would also have interesting effects.

Nintendo didn't do this, though.

At least they did *something*. Lets not bitch to much.

------------------
-cfalcon

Very sensible idea Cfalcon! A pity Nintendo was too lazy to go with that :P oh well, I still kind of perfer it the way it is personally, because I think it's more fun to use different species.

Dreamer, just wait until Gold and Silver comes out. From what I hear the game will be so much more balanced then. As for now it's pretty futile to attempt to beat a 6 Mewtwo teams unless the person you're playing against sucks.

Lickitung
-Hyper Beam
-Swords Dance
-Double Team
-Rest

Do you have any idea what a Hyper Beam with STAB and 3 Swords Dances can do? It killed a Mew, a Zapdos, a Snorlax, and some others with 1 hit each! Lickitung needs paralysis, sleep, or confusion support to pull this off, but it's worth it. Just beware or ghosts, rock types, and double teamers.

I'll probably work with a Swords Dancing Beedrill next. Of course it would need a lot of support to work, and it might not work at all, but I'd sure like to find out how useful a Beedrill can be in the right hands.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DragoniteJ:
Lickitung
-Hyper Beam
-Swords Dance
-Double Team
-Rest

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That could probably work like my porygon-
agility/DT- i usually use DT because i havedesigned teams just to give porygon just the support it needs.
sharpen
hyper beam
recover

As long as it powers up, which it usually can with my porygon team, it can finish off entere teams by itself. 1308 attack!!!!!

I'm sure that you have some real evidence to back up this out-of-the-blue assertion... :P

There is no reason to believe that Nintendo proper had any more control over Stadium than they did over the GameBoy games.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:

Give me an example of Sleep requiring skill (a REAL example, not one of your "concepts" that have no basis in real situations).

If you're playing without Sleep Clause, and your Parasect starts throwing Spore at everything in sight, your opponent can predict that and leave in a sleeping pokemon, wasting that Spore PP. Is he going to predict another Spore attempt by leaving his sleeping pokemon in? Or is he going to predict a non-spore attack by switching to a Fire type? That falls under skill, or at least mind games.

They don't manipulated odds; you're getting confused. They simply find systems that grant them advantages that let them see the odds (for example seeing a few possible next cards) and give them insights on what is most likely to happen; they can't change what will actually happen. Since numbers are being generated inside the cart in Pokemon, I can't see any possible way to do anything like this. And these people can only see what's coming; they can't change it. Even if they know they are going to be dealt a Q, 10, J, A, 8 from a deck in poker when they have a 2, 2, 4, 5, and 6 in their hand, no matter what they do, they won't be able to win; the numbers are against them, and if numbers are against them, their knowledge won't do them any good. It's that simple. Of course in Poker you might be able to bluff, but there's no Folding in Pokemon.

No, but there's still a chance of bluffing. Suppose you start a battle with your trusted Tobybro, and on the first turn, your opponent switches in Mewtwo. Logically, this is Toby's worst nightmare -- a Mewtwo with Amnesia/Recover/IceBeam/Thunderbolt or some similar moveset. Logically, the best thing to do is to switch out Toby as soon as possible. Yet your opponent could be bluffing with Amnesia/Recover/Icebeam/Psychic and expecting you to switch out because you THINK Toby's in trouble, even though he isn't.

[b]
The fact is there is no Pokemon that can honestly stand up on the level with Mewtwo except maybe Mew, but since he's slower, it will require luck.

Chansey can. *waits for the laughter to end*
With Light Screen and Reflect, even Mewtwo's Psychic or Submission (which is Super Effective) take off only about a quarter of her HP. That leaves two ways for Mewtwo to win:
(1) A Critical hit Submission (Critical Hit Psychic won't work because it cuts through Amnesia in addition to Light Screen
(2) A lucky Freeze with Ice beam or Blizzard

And for both of those, there are two counters:

(1) Minimize -- This will increase her evade to the point where Mewtwo is likely to run out of PP before CHing or Freezing. (although I don't like this approach -- what's the point of a pokemon with no attacks? Although you could try Minimize over Reflect, that's risky)

(2) Ice Beam -- Unless Mewtwo has Substitute, Chansey can fire away Ice Beams and hope that she gets a freeze in before Mewtwo, which (of course) makes him harmless.

Final note: before you say "But Chansey can't KO Mewtwo through Amnesia!" let me point out that the goal of Chansey is not to KO him, but just to neutralize him, which can be from (1) KOing him, (2) Freezing him or (3) using up all or most of his offensive PP so he can't harm the rest of Chansey's team. So even if Mewtwo takes out Chansey with a suicidal Selfdestruct (Kamiewtwo, anyone?) it's still a victory for Chansey.

Name a sleeper you honestly expect to survive a team of 6 Mewtwos...MAYBE Exeggutor, but switching at the right time would screw you and your Beedrill over. If the Mewtwo switched in after one SD from the Beedrill, he could start using free hits to take down your Exeggutor and other Beedrill.

Six Electrodes with Spore/Fissure/HornDrill/Recover! (sorry, coluldn't resist :Þ )

---

Starshelle,
"Dreamer, just wait until Gold and Silver comes out. From what I hear the game will be so much more balanced then. As for now it's pretty futile to attempt to beat a 6 Mewtwo teams unless the person you're playing against sucks."
I don't believe that, i know it is indeed very difficult but I plan on beating it...
I already pre-ordered my Gold copy and my Silver copy, I can't wait! =^)

Captain Falcon,
"On the off chance that someone can find a set of monsters to kill off 6 M2s, I'm sure that it would be reliant on one or two things: FRZ and SLP."
Yup, you are correct sir...

"Pre poison is fair, and within the game."
This is true too...

"Don't prepoison all M2s: just one or two. No bitching about unfair, cause it isn't, by the "within the game" logic ("able to be done" logic breaks down since you own the RAM and cand make pokédemigods with the shark)."
It's true, it's true! =^P

"Try to beat a team of 6 M2s that is run by a trainer with a head. You won't, unless you are using plenty of them too. It is is possible that some variant team (4 M2s, Toby, Chansey, as an example with no testing basis) might stand a chance: but the core game would resolve simply about lots of monsters."
I only give the password to trainers that are considered "good" in PBS to the mewtwo army I created for this purpose.
If Pokémon Crystal was out here It'll offer it to you...

"If you ever did squeak out a win with the sucky guys, it would be a fluke, and complete garbage in the aggregate."
I'm only going to use, at first, what would be best to win over the mewtwos and then try other things...

"If Charizard get nothing but CH Fire Blasts, you'd swear that would be the way to go: he doesn't, but if yours did for a game, it would probably be a victory."
IF I would use a charizard to beat an army of mewtwos, it would have team support(always) Double Team to protect it, Swords Dance to enhance whatever phisical attack i decide to give it, I wouldn't use fire though...

"Freeze clause might be necessary, but it does seem to go against a lot. I don't like not feeling safe using Blizzard cause some dipfuck froze at 3 Hp. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, given the low chance of success of freeze moves in general... but it probably is too strong by itself."
The low chance balances it, everything else is just luck, deal with it....

"Sleep clause is only necessary because the numbers are so in favor of anything with a sleep move."
If you do not know how to counter sleep.

"Sleeping 7 turns is hideous: Stadium almost had the right idea, but keeping an even distribution and making the max at three greatly raises the number of one's (trade evens) and two's (minor benefits) and weakens sleep beyond what should be. The fact that sleep clause is *on top* of that is inexcusable."
I also agree that was overdone...

"It isn't a balanced game."
Yes it is, and I intend to proove it with my mewtwo army experiment and then I'll do a sleeping team experiment, I'll tackle all the major issues that people use to regard Pokémon as unbalanced...

"There really isn't any debate."
...um...o.k....

"There is debate, however, on what would make a better version of the rules. I figured only two species clause rules make sense:

(1)-> One of any specific monster type.
(2)-> As many of a specific monster type as can be found in any single game instance. One Mewtwo. Two Snorlaxen. 6 Raticates, if you want."
#2 is brilliant, thank you Capt'n... ^___^!

"I think Nintendo went with (1) because it is simpler, but (2) would have been cool... monsters that aren't "Legendary" could appear more than once (like they do in the game).

If tournament rules limited TMs to what appears in one instance of the game, that would also have interesting effects."
Very interesting as a matter of fact...

"Nintendo didn't do this, though.

At least they did *something*. Lets not bitch to much."
True, true...

White Cat,
"I'm sure that you have some real evidence to back up this out-of-the-blue assertion... :P

There is no reason to believe that Nintendo proper had any more control over Stadium than they did over the GameBoy games."
Stadium one was being made at the same time as G&S and they are 2 completely separate enviroments plus add the fact that the Tours, wich are Nintendo alone, have this funky restrictions spells out to me that Nintendo has created these...
How about you, where did you get your stuff from? =^)

Fanha,
Wow...you are not understanding me...at all...

"No matter of mind games will change the results of that."
THAT, is an elementary mathematic equation...Pokémon is more complicated that that...

"That's just picking 1 of 4...during any given game at any given time you have a maximum of NINE options (4 attacks, 5 switches)(normally; there are exceptions, especially if you're talking Baton touch in G/S and such)(this doesn't include running or items). That's not infinite possibilities. The only thing you have control over is which of those 9 you pick."
The way you use the moves have infinite possibilities...

"None of that will help Butterfree or Beedrill survive an Ice Beam from Mewtwo. The fact is that stuff only counts if the numbers behind it are rouchly even, unless your opponent has psychological problems or is inhumanly gullible."
Complete and utter bull!
Have you no imagination Fanha!?
Do you really thing I'll have a pokémon as fragile as a beedrill make FRONT to a functionable mewtwo!?
I though you were a skilled trainer, you should know better than that...

"Okay, your Beedrill comes out against Mewtwo. How will you "manipulate the battle" so he powers up. You can't get around the fact a single Psychic/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt will kill him. It is called a limitation."
The only limitation here Fanha is your imagination to see that a scenario like that would not happen.
You have to Staying Alive the beedrill and make sure those attacks have a low probablility of hitting while the opponent is disabled...

"There are such things as numeric limitations, unless you have the ability to generate high-pitched noises in the back of your throat which somehow can vibrate the cartridge in the certain way so that it always pops 0 or 255 so you can make the attacks always miss you. And I don't think that's the case; I think your own voice vibrates your cranial crevace in a way that causes garbage to be split out all bodily outputs."
Nevermind the argument at hand now you wanna trade insults...how old are you again?

"Overconfidence is something you can only count on newbies falling for. I am absolutely sure no matter of mind games could convince me to use Recover instead of Psychic/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt in the previous example."
That was a simple example Fanha, only an example and EVERYONE can get overconfident because EVERYONE has an Ego!
If you didn't have an Ego you would not be here right now...so, you have an Ego and are weak to being over confident wich the opponent can exploit...

"Not really. The cartridge generating those numbers can't be bribed. Mindgames won't get you 15 straight FPs; luck will. And that's the only type of miracle that could possibly save a team like this."
Yes, really, the cartridge has no control over a human being's ability to improvise.

"No it doesn't. You have NO options during Sleep except to sit and wait or switch, PERIOD, and if you continue using switching to get around Sleep, you'll run out of options when you can't switch to anything. Thus the Sleep clause."
Thus the handicap for people who do not know how to deal with sleep.
YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COUNTER SLEEP but that doesn't mean there is no way to do it...

"Exactly, and it does. Except for the (yet another) luck check to see which Pokemon gets to use Sleep Powder first (assuming they're the same Pokemon). And this is, as will be the rest, just a game of luck."
For you that seem to lack enough vision to see beyond that...

"What can you do while asleep? I'm listening. All the game tells me I can do is wait or switch, neither of which solves the problem if my opponent decides to use another Sleep attack."

I made a nutshell explanation on counter sleep for Magician Type 0 in GameFAQs.
Counter Sleep get's more complicated but this will give you the correct concept to build upon, ejoy:
In a nutshell, Sleep Counters:

Basic EMG
If your opponent starts with a sleeper for example chances are that he will use a sleep move(in a no restrictions enviroment). You may hit the poké hard so it goes into less than 50% if possible OR give it a status move put it to sleep paralyze it, or poison it they all work for you.
Confusion and accuracy lowering moves work too.
The point is to get something in there that will work FOR YOU while your poké is asleep.
Having a poké asleep can work for you too since you can use that pokémon to Block sleep moves just make sure that the pokémon is a tough one like your mewtwo or snorlax.
Fish for free turns to remove sleep conters by doing good ol' EMG tactics.
Let's say you have a sleeping zapdos
You can use it to Block earthquakes then switch to something resistand against the next attack you predict(either knowledge, patterns or Intuition).
Another scenario is to put pokémon that are totally resistand against the enemy poké like putting in my sleeping beedrill against my opponent's Staying Alive, Growing and Megadraining tangela.

Do not let the opponent put your whole team to sleep!
If ParaSword! puts one of your pokémon to sleep goes into the Sleeper Hold Swords Dance once, Sleeper Hold, you switch to another, is asleep, Sleeper Hold ect...
You have to have the skills to read my actions and predict when is ParaSword! going to actually Swords Dance.
This takes skill and practice but it can be done
Once that pokéin in there it'll be faster than ParaSword! most likely and then BAM! Is a mind game, the battlefield has been elevated into a psychological level and if you're not there to defend your pokés you will surey fall.
Another way to get rid of parasects sleeper hols is to keep the pokémon in there until you wake up in a turn it is doing something else or sacrifice it then you would be in the same level as the parasect and get another shot.
I don't like that last option but it works when I'm pressed for time.

O.K. that is in a nutshell before I go into FAQ mode wich is not my intention unless many, many people would like to see an in depth FAQ on how to deal with Sleep another things that are as ''cheap''.

"Yes, I shouldn't have used G/S in this (I thought the BT strategy could prove my point). Sleep wouldn't help Butterfree in G/S anymore because they attack as soon as they wake up, and "Sleep Talk" (uses one of your attacks) and "Snore" (40 Dam, Normal type, 30% chance of flinch) can hit through Sleep."
The same turn Wake Up is no concern when you're skilled with sleep moves, it still falls prey to a Sleeper Hold...
But the other too moves are good for counter sleep, I'm very glab that they put those in there, now that it will be less dificult to counter hopefully dumb ass sleep clause will go away...

"It is a paradox tho; you want to use skill for Butterfree, but its only "skilled" way requires luck, which is unrelated to skill, which means Butterfree can't be played with skill, which kills the whole arguement. And hitting A on "Fight" then A on "Sleep Powder" doesn't count as skill. You're talking in ethereal terms; Pokemon is not some mystic force; it's numbers being crunched inside a computer."
Like I said, Sleeper Hold requires skill, only a dash of luck...but you wouldn't know because you have obviously never tried it...

"Give me an example of Sleep requiring skill (a REAL example, not one of your "concepts" that have no basis in real situations)."
Real situations, eh? Come to PBS and I'll show you what Project Somnomancer is all about, or just wait for Pokémon Crystal to come out so I can school you...

"Not really; if you've found out how to control what numbers the cartridge spews out, you should be in Sakaki Tower discussing it."
NOT CONTROL THE NUMBERS DAMN IT!
Are you a freakin' computer!?
Are you freakin Spock!?
Do you watch too much Star Trek!?
Control THE SITUATION!
You know, TO IMPROVISE!
AH! Nevermind explaining this to you!
You're probably telling yourself right now "Does not compute! Does not compute! Error! Error!" LOL! Whatever man...

"Yes, Sleep, which requires an extent of LUCK to hit (unless you're talking Stun Spore), and LUCK to stay Asleep. That's all sleep is. There's no player involvement there except for chosing the move."
To stay asleep you use a Sleeper Hold, in the mean time you power up a Champion poké and the effect of sleep is random, yes, but you can control the situation of that chaos with a sleeper hold, like predicting the weather...

"I already answered this; I'd like to know how to get around "Fight" or "PKMN"."
My point precisely, you got no idea nor would you ever have an idea because you seem to be so dry of imagination is hard to think of you as a human being...

"They don't manipulated odds; you're getting confused. They simply find systems that grant them advantages that let them see the odds (for example seeing a few possible next cards) and give them insights on what is most likely to happen; they can't change what will actually happen. Since numbers are being generated inside the cart in Pokemon, I can't see any possible way to do anything like this. And these people can only see what's coming; they can't change it. Even if they know they are going to be dealt a Q, 10, J, A, 8 from a deck in poker when they have a 2, 2, 4, 5, and 6 in their hand, no matter what they do, they won't be able to win; the numbers are against them, and if numbers are against them, their knowledge won't do them any good. It's that simple. Of course in Poker you might be able to bluff, but there's no Folding in Pokemon."
Knowing what's going to happen and taking action accordingly is called MANIPULATING ODDS, you are the one that is confused, this is the actual term people that go to casinos here and do that address it!
Don't try to argue with me about the term, I apparently know about this more than you do...

"Assuming it's a 3 vs 3 battle (which is where the Kamikaze clause is applied) this happens very often; both players have lost 2 Pokemon and it's down to 1 vs 1. Especially if they played another kamikaze like a Selfdestructing Snorlax to do another 1-for-1 trade."
If you're a good trainer, unless you get unlucky, you'll use good EMG to not go there, period...

"But if you both played this, it would just be luck; either the luck of who pulls of a SD and blows up first (since they have equal speed, the game rolls dice) or the luck of a CH by one player who Explodes first. And as said, there's no "skill" to that."
Like I said, just don't go there, fight it...

"If it's down to the last Pokemon, you don't HAVE the option to pull out a Rock or Ghost; that's the whole point, NO OPTIONS. The fact is the Kamikaze clause is mainly for the ever-so-common 3 v 3 battles where each side has only 1 Pokemon left. And assuming the Mew also has Earthquake (standard SD, Explo, EQ, Softboiled) there's really no stopping it short of extreme luck in paralysis or a Sleep, which you would probably have on an openning Pokemon rather than an ending."
Assuming your pokémon doesn't have a sleep move, accuracy attacks, evasion, etc...

"I can't say I've met a truly experienced player who hasn't ever gotten down to a 1 vs 1 match on 3 v 3. It happens, whether you like it/want to stop it or not."
Then you haven't played an EMG game that really flows....

"Oh guess what? No matter WHAT you use, 6 Mewtwos with Thunderbolt/Ice Beam and maybe Psychic/Amnesia/Blizzard/etc. rotated around will ANNIHILATE you."
That's not true, one powered up beedrill, for example, will eat all of the for breakfast, lunch AND dinner...after all, 6 meals must be consumed in order to stay healthy...(O.K., I know that was bad but...) =^P

"The fact is there is no Pokemon that can honestly stand up on the level with Mewtwo except maybe Mew, but since he's slower, it will require luck."
One on one, yeah, that is, without any concept of TEAM WORK!
But I guess that's how you think...

"Name a sleeper you honestly expect to survive a team of 6 Mewtwos...MAYBE Exeggutor, but switching at the right time would screw you and your Beedrill over. If the Mewtwo switched in after one SD from the Beedrill, he could start using free hits to take down your Exeggutor and other Beedrill."
I'll post the log here after is done...

"Not really. Like I said, Pokemon is not ethereal; it's a game on a cartridge. It has limitations. That's how things are."
Yes, really, and you can take what you can work with and improvise. There's that word again that you seem not to know, look it up...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
Besides, Chansey can't have Reflect, Minimize, Light Screen, Softboiled, AND Ice Beam.

---

Oops... I was *thinking* "use Reflect, LightScreen, Sofytboiled, and either Minimize or Icebeam" but I guess I forgot to actuaklly type that in....

But it would be cool if *Chansey DID have all five >

No, the purpose of Splash is to make Magikarp very hard to train so it will be more rewarding when it finally evolves into something useful, not for laughable attempts at "demoralizing" in link battles.

But G&S don't have such handicaped restrictions, instead they balanced sleep with some weird moves

So you admit it was unbalanced before?

Stadium one was being made at the same time as G&S and they are 2 completely separate enviroments

Irrelevant; most developers make games on more than one platform. Also consider that almost all of the battle code is taken straight from the GameBoy, which a new developer would probably have to completely re-code.

Anyway, GameFreak is listed as the developer for Stadium. So there.

plus add the fact that the Tours, wich are Nintendo alone, have this funky restrictions spells out to me that Nintendo has created these...

The "tourney rules" are obviously there to inform the kids of how the game works, so they don't wonder why their Spore missed nine times in a row. The only new rule is last-man-suicide. (Or maybe not; who does Stadium give the victory to in that case?)

Anyway, your reasoning here is nothing but "I don't like these rules and I don't like Nintendo, so the rules were obviously created by Nintendo and not GameFreak-the-Perfect-Developer-and-Creator-of-Perfectly-Balanced-Games."

And as I said before, GameFreak admitted that R/B/G/Y are unbalanced.

Knowing what's going to happen and taking action accordingly is called MANIPULATING ODDS

Nope, that's called "playing the odds." Manipulating them would be changing the actual percentages in your favour (like the computer probably does in Stadium).

The same turn Wake Up is no concern when you're skilled with sleep moves, it still falls prey to a Sleeper Hold...

No, the "sleeper hold" requires you to be able to put them back to sleep as soon as they wake up (i.e. be faster than them). G/S almost completely screws this, since there's no way to prevent them from getting at least one hit on you.

That's not true, one powered up beedrill, for example, will eat all of the [six Mewtwos] for breakfast, lunch AND dinner

In your Great Dreams. Even a fully-powered Beedrill will lose badly, since a Mewtwo with no boosts can still kill it in one hit. (Well, the Beedrill might be able to take out one...)

And of course, from a purely logical and skillful point of view, using Beedrill for this is the height of idiocity, since Mew would be a hundred times better.

And that's just part of why the game is unbalanced.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Dreamer:
"Oh guess what? No matter WHAT you use, 6 Mewtwos with Thunderbolt/Ice Beam and maybe Psychic/Amnesia/Blizzard/etc. rotated around will ANNIHILATE you."
That's not true, one powered up beedrill, for example, will eat all of the for breakfast, lunch AND dinner

---

White Cat,
"No, the purpose of Splash is to make Magikarp very hard to train so it will be more rewarding when it finally evolves into something useful, not for laughable attempts at "demoralizing" in link battles."
O.K., and a butter knife is meant to spread contents on food but I can still use it to ram it up your ass! LOL! I mean, seriously!
Have you no imagination either!?
You OBVIOUSLY didn't understand what I meant, so, you ASSumed you understood.
Next time, kitty, if you don't get it, don't respond...LOL!

"So you admit it was unbalanced before?"
...er...no, like I said before(wich is surprising that you missed this since you like to stick your nose in other people's business but somehow decided NOT to aknowledge this)sleep is now EASIER to counter, that is what that statement means...

"Irrelevant; most developers make games on more than one platform. Also consider that almost all of the battle code is taken straight from the GameBoy, which a new developer would probably have to completely re-code."
Irrelevancy is relative...
Another developer can just get the code and get trained on it and then whatever they feel like doing with it, is just another language-type skill...

"Anyway, GameFreak is listed as the developer for Stadium. So there."
...and I'm listed as the problem solver for Dell, but I take orders from my boss, DUH!

"The "tourney rules" are obviously there to inform the kids of how the game works, so they don't wonder why their Spore missed nine times in a row. The only new rule is last-man-suicide. (Or maybe not; who does Stadium give the victory to in that case?)"
The Tourney Rules are the ones that have the Clause restrictions, I though you knew that White Cat?

"Anyway, your reasoning here is nothing but "I don't like these rules and I don't like Nintendo, so the rules were obviously created by Nintendo and not GameFreak-the-Perfect-Developer-and-Creator-of-Perfectly-Balanced-Games.""
That's it White Cat, tell me more about myself, since you seem to know everything! LOL!
You compare the Nintendo Tour enviroment with the game enviroment and is not the same.
Tour=Nintendo
R,B,Y,G&S=Game Freak
Stadium+Tour=Nintendo or Nintendo influence

"And as I said before, GameFreak admitted that R/B/G/Y are unbalanced."
In what way, when, how? I'd like to know...

"Nope, that's called "playing the odds." Manipulating them would be changing the actual percentages in your favour (like the computer probably does in Stadium)."
Playing the odds and Manipulating the odds are the same thing, this is from a city that this stuff is practiced everyday from people that do it everyday, what you're talking about is cheating...LOL! Don't try to argue about this with me, I live in Las Vegas, the capital of gambling in the world and I know people at UNLV that do this stuff all the time, so I know more than you do on this, don't piss against the wind...LOL!

"No, the "sleeper hold" requires you to be able to put them back to sleep as soon as they wake up (i.e. be faster than them). G/S almost completely screws this, since there's no way to prevent them from getting at least one hit on you."
*Loads G&S ROM just to confirm*
Ah, I see what you mean, you're right, I withdraw my coment...

"In your Great Dreams. Even a fully-powered Beedrill will lose badly, since a Mewtwo with no boosts can still kill it in one hit. (Well, the Beedrill might be able to take out one...)"
...uh...Staying Alive anybody?
Very convinient that in your scenario I would front a non-powered up beedrill against a mewtwo...stupid, stupid, stupid...

"And of course, from a purely logical and skillful point of view, using Beedrill for this is the height of idiocity, since Mew would be a hundred times better."
Were you get your logic from!?
From great amounts of crack rocks of large size it seems to me...
Mews or beedrills...it depends...
Mews can resist mewtwo's attacks while beedrills cannot...
Beedrills can cut through mewtwos like a hot knife through butter if powered up, while mews make for more of a blunter blade through cold butter...*doesn't think White Cat understands analogy since it shows simptoms of unimaginability* ...whatever then...

"And that's just part of why the game is unbalanced."
Is not, and I'll proove it....

Jhonny Eagle,
Show up in PBS, let's see who's eyes will roll then...

Fanha,

"- Clauses are only for weaklings/newbies who don't like variety."
Wrong! For weaklings that fear to play any other way besides EMG, afraid of learning how to deal with the advanced challenges of the game, like mews, mewtwos and sleep...

"- You just need "skill" to make Butterfree/Beedrill good"
Not "skill", SKILL...

"- Something about an "Elemental Matching Game", which he uses to refer to his Wigglytuff and such, funny enough, and claims he is "above it" and most of us "just don't get it""
Wrong again, I'm above, like so many others(lomboy comes to mind) above playing in an EMG ONLY enviroment like most trainers do.
...and no, there is no "us" Fanha, not everyone, just the ones that I try to explain to and they clearly show that they don't get it, like you.
I don't ASSume someone I've never try to present my argument to doesn't get it...

"- Pokemon form "social structures", and Species clause is just a stupid limitation for all Pokemon; it "rapes free will""
The social structure gag was just that, a jokie term for the game, I explained that but it seems that you have something called by psychologists as Selective Memory wich you only remember what is convinient to your argument when you are responding to it...
...you don't know what Free Will is it seems?
You know, freedom to choose your own actions and ideas, freedom to be yourself...you know....Free Will, something that they don't teach you at church or at your home apparently...

"- Numbers aren't the basis of the game (which everyone at this site should disagree with considering the whole concept behind Azure)"
Wrong...I said the numbers are not EVERYTHING! There goes that Selective Memory again...

"- Saying a Pokemon sucks only means you're newbieish because you don't know how to "unlock it" (another "I am above this" thing)"
Wrong, the term unlock means to unlock the potential from a pokémon, and I mean, mature pokémon not just any...

"- To use a Beedrill you must "somehow" "manipulate the battle" (mystical ethereal term) so he powers up"
Magic is what people fall back to when they do not understand something, like you are doing right now...
I just came back from PBS were I wasted a trainer that had a mewtwo and a mew, both with psychic with a Staying Alive Needle Dancing beedrill...TWICE!

"- 10 base stat can be higher than 20 base stat if 10 plays mind games"
I never said that, Pokémon is more complicated than basic numbers. I said that a weak fighting force can beat a more powerful and superior fighting force.
Thus, the David and Goliath analogy wich you clearly didn't get because you seem to be as dry as a desert in imagination...

"- There are ways to "counter sleep" besides being lucky"
WOW! You got one right! Congratulations!

"- Sleep is mostly about skill, and it takes very little luck"
I didn't say that, I said that SLEEPER HOLD requires skill and a lil' bit of luck...

"- You can control your luck (even I with my OHKO team can't say I have any control over when I hit)"
Wrong, you can control what you do with your LUCK!

"- A trainer with "skill" will NEVER end up one-on-one in a 3 v 3 battle"
I never said never...there's always exceptions wich is another thing you don't get...

"- If it is down to one-on-one, you can always switch to block if needed"
I clarify that but your Selective Memory makes a fool out of you...

"- A team of 6 Mewtwos "pays the price" of being "vulnerable" to Beedrill"
...a POWERED UP beedrill with Staying ALive, get it right...

"- If you "try" enough, you can overcome any Pokemon's bad stats (like your parents said "if you try hard enough you can be anything" when you're born lazy and without the IQ needed to make it past high school)"
That's right Fanha, tell me more about myself, since you seem to know everything...
...jackass...

"- Butterfrees were designed with a "hidden potential" you must "unlock" (funny how it doesn't show up in the ROM...)"
Not only butterfrees but all mature pokémon.
You can't find it in the ROM because is not there, you're looking in the wrong place, is in your mind...wich you seem to seem to look the last for things that require luck apparently...

"- Butterfree was designed to be played at Prime Cup level"
You got another one! I'm proud of you Fanha...

"- Splash can be used to taunt your opponent"
Well, gee darn nabit! The kid's been havin hopes afshter all! LMAO! X^D

"- Talks about luck being able to be "controlled" and "manipulated", then later says "everything else is just luck, deal with it....""
I never said that, lay off the crack pipe already...

"- Pokemon is "much more complicated" than math formulae (obiviously it's not unless you are gullible and actually listen to your opponent outside of the game)"
Wich it is, there you go acting like a computer again...
CANNOT COMPUTE, CANNOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!
LOL!

"- There are "an infinite number of ways to use your 4 moves" (thus far the only one I've found is the A button)"
...wow....that's the way you understand it...you're so sad...

"- "Staying Alive" a Beedrill will allow it to power up against a Mewtwo, and my imagination keeps me from doing this"
...um....nevermind you have a whole team to back it up...right?

"- Just because I have an ego means it dominates my playing strategy and by some weird power of his TGD can cause my ego to interfere with my game and do stupid things (note that if my ego interfered with my game, I wouldn't win as consistantly as I do, and I wouldn't have an ego because I would be a loser, thus I wouldn't have a big ego now; quite the paradox)"
You forggot the definition of a paradox again!? Your loss...
I never said I had any powers...you're watching too much TV, kid... LOL!

"- Improvising well causes you to no longer be worried by luck because the luck somehow will always turn out good"
Is what to do with it that you must improvise with! AH! Nevermind, you're hopeless!

"- If two of the same Pokemon face off, it isn't luck that determines who gets the first move in; it's something beyond our grasp that everyone except TGD "lacks enough vision" to see"
I never argued that the initiative is random...did you lay off that crack pipe yet? Guess not...

"- You can still use a Sleeper Hold in G/S (even though the opponent attacks when they wake up rather than the turn after) as long as you're "skilled with Sleep moves""
Like I said before, I found out you were right after I opened the ROM and tried it out again...don't let this be the highligh of your lifetime, O.K.?

"- Keeping your opponent locked down with Sleep requires tons of skill and only a little luck"
Requires more skill than luck, don't exagerated...

"- "Improvising" can get around game limitations and luck and allows you to "control the situation""
Wrong, wrong, wrong...
Improvising allows weak pokémon to beat stringer pokémon and your own skill allows you to manipulate the odds...

"- Using a Sleeper Hold is like predicting the weather"
You're getting good at actually listening, aren't you?

"- Fanha has no imagination just because he doesn't see any other commands on his screen besides "Fight" and "PKMN" while he's Asleep(geez I'd hate to find out what I'd see if I had an imagination like TGD's!)"
Still stuck, still not knowing how to counter sleep...*shakes head*

"- You can find out what's going to happen beforehand and take action accordingly in Pokemon"
Yup, this is a Psychological term called Cold Reading, look it up...

"- A Pokemon with Sleep is likely to be the last Pokemon in your lineup in a 3-vs-3 battle when it's down to 1-vs-1, and it's likely to be able to take out a SD/Exploding Mew"
The situation is relative, like I said but you didn't listen...

"- In TGD's "EMG that really flows", a 3-vs-3 battle NEVER comes down to 1-vs-1 because apparently the user of "EMG" is too good to not win with 2 Pokemon left over"
Why do you keep repeating yourself?
Is your mind like a scratched record!?
I never said never...

"- One powered-up Beedrill can take a team of 6 Mewtwos (*cough*Speed*cough*Special*cough*)"
*caugh*Staying Alive*caugh*

"- On 6 vs 6 against a team of Mewtwos, your team uses teamwork but the Mewtwos don't"
I never said that either...don't ASSume I said things I clearly didn't...

"- You can take what you can and improvise to get around the game's natural limitations (stats, luck, etc.)"
Nope, wrong again...remember David and Goliath...

"- Ramming a butter knife up someone's ass is the product of a good imagination"
...um...that was a joke...OH! That's right! Computers cannot get jokes! Sorry, my bad...

"- The logic that Mew is better than Beedrill comes from crack"
...er...I said it was relative....you, however, might come from crack... LOL!

"- A fully powered-up Beedrill can take a hit from a Mewtwo somehow"
Nope, never said that either...I said a Staying Alive Needle Dancer or similar is hard to stop if you're using a mewtwo army....

"*thinks these speak for themselves*"
Think again...Selective Memory boy...

Please point out where the show has claimed that you can't sleep/freeze more than one Pokemon at a time, or where you can't use more than one of the same species, or that using a suicide move on your last Pokemon is illegal.

"So you admit it was unbalanced before?"
...er...no, like I said before... sleep is now EASIER to counter, that is what that statement means...

You said "they balanced sleep." In order to balance something, it must start from an unbalanced state.

The Tourney Rules are the ones that have the Clause restrictions, I though you knew that White Cat?

I was saying that the "Tourny Rules" that the Nintendo reps tell you at the tours are taken from the Stadium programming, not the other way around.

"And as I said before, GameFreak admitted that R/B/G/Y are unbalanced."
In what way, when, how? I'd like to know...

An interview in Nintendo Power a couple months back.

Playing the odds and Manipulating the odds are the same thing, this is from a city that this stuff is practiced everyday from people that do it everyday

Well, they should consult a dictionary so they will use the correct terms in the future.

Very convinient that in your scenario I would front a non-powered up beedrill against a mewtwo...stupid, stupid, stupid...

No, my scenario was about a powered-up Beedrill. However, I'd appreciate it if you could explain how said Beedrill will be able to power up without dying...

Beedrills can cut through mewtwos like a hot knife through butter if powered up, while mews make for more of a blunter blade through cold butter...

No. Beedrill is much more frail than Mew, and his powered-up attacks aren't any more damaging. He's no better offensively, and much weaker defensively. Please explain how he can be better.

"His extreme crappiness inflicts psychological terror!"

Common Sense.

You're talking about how when one of your Pokemon is asleep, you can do a number of things, like switching around, and using the Sleeper to your advantage to block Status Changes. Yes, that works great in your perfect world, but the game is still a matter of chance. This is also suggesting that your opponent is no more intelligent than a grapefruit, if they fall for the "switch in" technique. Your opening counters to sleep (status changes, accuracy modifiers, confusion, damage), is assuming that you're going first. What if you never get that chance to get the first hit in? Not all sleepers are slow, and even if they are, there are still Pokemon slower than them. That's saying that every match you play will be catered to your little strategy. This also implies that you already know that Pokemon is a sleeper.

Predicting sleep isn't a brilliant counter to sleep status. With every opponent, this situation changes. No one thinks alike. They may think in similar fashions, but with their choice of teams, moves, and experiences with the game, they will have different patterns for when they use sleep or any other strategy. You may say that you just have to use intuition or some such, but that's assuming you can know how a person thinks without ever meeting that person. Face it, that's not always going to happen.

And your team of sleepers to counter six Mewtwos. This seems to be assuming that your sleep powders and the like will always work. It's like you think the Mewtwo are going to cater to you, that they'll stay asleep long enough for you to power up your Beedrill. And who says your Beedrill is even going to survive? Sure, it may have been induced with Double Rest or some such, but there's still a chance that that Psychic or whatever will hit, and take down poor Beedrill.

Every strategy, every counter, every step you think of is according to a scenario where everything is catered towards you. If that happened to me, of course I'd be able to counter everything thrown at me. But it doesn't happen. You say you know how to improvise, but from the looks of it, I don't see how you back that up.

------------------
Gundam Wing/Thundercats: WHAT'S THAT?!? Sword of Omens, give me sight beyond sight. I'm going to fight it. Thunder...thunder...Thundercats...(buster rifle to the head).

"You said "they balanced sleep." In order to balance something, it must start from an unbalanced state."
I already SAID what I MEANT by my statement...if you don't want to see it that's your perogative...

"I was saying that the "Tourny Rules" that the Nintendo reps tell you at the tours are taken from the Stadium programming, not the other way around."
The Tours came FIRST and then the STADIUM game, yes, the OTHER way around...

"An interview in Nintendo Power a couple months back."
Thanks, what volume?

"Well, they should consult a dictionary so they will use the correct terms in the future."
...um...no, Manipulating Odds is a TERM, the definition of the 2 words has nothing to do with what the term means...
The term means that a normal person would have, say, 33% chance to win a blackjack game. But someone who knows how to keep track of the cards with mathematical formulas has a higher chance of winning, let say 64%. This is what they mean by manipulating odds, and everyone that is involved in it quotes it that way, it has nothing to do with dictionary deffinitions.
What you are talking about is CHEATING.
This are deffinitions right from the horses mouth, so don't argue with them...

"No, my scenario was about a powered-up Beedrill. However, I'd appreciate it if you could explain how said Beedrill will be able to power up without dying..."
See, this scenario game is always difficult to deal with in words, the best thing would be for us to battle in PBS.
To my best ability I would say that first I'll put the mewtwo(assuming it has psychic) to sleep, sleeper hold afterwards to make you doubt yourself for a switch, attack your accuracy maybe once or twice, sleeper hold into a paralyzing effect, battle for a bit to repair your confidence, then switch to the beedrill at a key moment(while the mewtwo is recovering, powering up, etc) then Double Team until I reach 4 DT, Dance once, attack, at this point the mewtwo is badly wounded and you'll want to switch or recover, I'll take advantage of that fear and finish my Staying Alive combo, finish the Needle Dance combo and then start the slaughter. Now, this is assuming that this beedrill doesn't get hit with a psychic, so I have to manipulate the odds to make sure that this psychic doesn't have good accuracy.
By keeping a pokémon that can surely defeat the target in one hit or at least be stronger than the target I inflate the opponent's ego and thus influencing the decision to keep the mewtwo in.
This is a general scenario, O.K., I'm not saying you play like this, but, in order to do Cold Reading you must scout your opponent first in order to be sure. You can still predict and read your opponent without knowing but it's a bit harder.

"No. Beedrill is much more frail than Mew, and his powered-up attacks aren't any more damaging. He's no better offensively, and much weaker defensively. Please explain how he can be better."
Relative, relative to the situation, but yes, mews are the more popular choice...

SDSamshel,
"You know what I call this "Counter Sleep" strategy?
Common Sense."
*Applause*

"You're talking about how when one of your Pokemon is asleep, you can do a number of things, like switching around, and using the Sleeper to your advantage to block Status Changes. Yes, that works great in your perfect world, but the game is still a matter of chance. This is also suggesting that your opponent is no more intelligent than a grapefruit, if they fall for the "switch in" technique. Your opening counters to sleep (status changes, accuracy modifiers, confusion, damage), is assuming that you're going first. What if you never get that chance to get the first hit in? Not all sleepers are slow, and even if they are, there are still Pokemon slower than them. That's saying that every match you play will be catered to your little strategy. This also implies that you already know that Pokemon is a sleeper."
That's why you have to scout a bit or take an educated guess, example: my opponent just Amnesia with a slowbro, Educated Guess: Tobybro or Slowblow, but no certain.
Rule 1) Always have a backup plan.
Rule 2) Never count on it.
The key here is knowing your opponent's style, the faster you learn it the better but this doesn't mean you cannot do it still.
The faster sleepers have innaccurate sleep moves you can also shake your opponents patter of moves with switching but this is hard to do. Or just pre-poison that's the best sleep counter tactic of all...

"Predicting sleep isn't a brilliant counter to sleep status. With every opponent, this situation changes. No one thinks alike. They may think in similar fashions, but with their choice of teams, moves, and experiences with the game, they will have different patterns for when they use sleep or any other strategy. You may say that you just have to use intuition or some such, but that's assuming you can know how a person thinks without ever meeting that person. Face it, that's not always going to happen."
This is true, like martial arts as an example, you must learn your opponent's way of fighting as quick as possible.
But no, this is a last resort in sleep counter tactics, you're right.

"And your team of sleepers to counter six Mewtwos. This seems to be assuming that your sleep powders and the like will always work. It's like you think the Mewtwo are going to cater to you, that they'll stay asleep long enough for you to power up your Beedrill. And who says your Beedrill is even going to survive? Sure, it may have been induced with Double Rest or some such, but there's still a chance that that Psychic or whatever will hit, and take down poor Beedrill."
Works both ways, there's no saying that a Sleep Powder will hit, but the odds are in my favor...and the odds will be at my favor after the 4th double team.
These are risks, and you need a dash of luck, but by manipulating the odds this way you can make it more times than you cannot.

"Every strategy, every counter, every step you think of is according to a scenario where everything is catered towards you. If that happened to me, of course I'd be able to counter everything thrown at me. But it doesn't happen. You say you know how to improvise, but from the looks of it, I don't see how you back that up."
I only give examples here, I'm not saying this or that will definetly happen for sure 100%, because trainers are all unique in some way regardless if they all copy from each other. Those have just been examples for me to proove a point, the only way to truly discuss this will be in an actuall Pokémon game, in PBS or better yet, Crystal when it comes out...
Thank you for your intelligent input...

"BTW, in answer to why I think like a computer in regards to Pokemon...
You play a detective game, you think like a detective.
You play a war game, you think like a warrior (or something along that line; you get the drift).
You play a computer (or GB) game, you think like a computer (logically).
It's that simple."
Except you're not playing a computer, you are playing a trainer of pokémon...

...you want to be limited, fine with me!
It's your business, don't get me involved...

I will say this:

A fully powered up Beedrill might full well have first strike (agility) and will have 999 attack (SD). Can that take a Mewtwo? Maybe, I forget, and I'm not doing the math now. Point is, you need to buy time for that *badly*. Another monster would be better suited for that time, if you were given it.

When I first got the game, I wondered at the battle rules: it seemed to be anything goes. It was. I figured that for there to be any tournaments, Nintendo would have to have some official guidelines to make things clearer. The rulings did predate Stadium, and by a long way. As near as I can tell, they followed Japanese tournament rules.

"Raw" pokemon does need to be looked at again. While Mewtwo is super powerful, the fact that stat mods are much stronger is honestly worth considering. There are a lot of ways to take out a single Mewtwo without status mod blocks in place, as that is at once the only area where he has no defense (remeber, before Stadium came out substitute didn't block T-Wave, spore, etc.) and where he couldn't respond in like kind even faster (getting none himself). This, however small, is a weakness (on a contrary note, having merely an above average defense is not a weakness, as some may claim). Certain Parasects have a decent shots at unpowered Mewtwos without fire attacks (fire isn't generally a good call for Mewtwo). Spore is exceptionally strong, especially when they are petrified to switch in for fear of SLPing their whole team.

For those that are wondering, this is one of the things TGD is saying (not an actual quote):

"In raw pokémon, you can't just say 6 M2s are unbeateable, because if I'm sporing them with parasect the result is highly dependent on whether he switches in while I'm attacking or stays the course while I'm sporing (both in his favor) or makes the wrong call and gets another sleeping M2 or a current M2 with less hp."

He didn't use Sect, but you see the point. It isn't one to laugh at, because it does have merit. However, the common perception is that M2 may full well get in that second, fatal attack before whatever sleeper does his thing, and the sickening 7 turn loss can just as easily be an unnoticable 1 turn loss (immediate wakeup).

My team of 6 M2s, if I had one, would have a Fire Blast on board

If anyone wants to argue that Nintendo could have done better rules, I'll agree with them. If they want to argue that the game was flat out fair, I just can't. A team composed primarily of M2s will tear shit apart. It is possible that someone (possibly TGD, as he's obviously spent time playing with this) will come up with a team that will consistently spank 6 M2s, regardless of their movesets. I'd like to see it, but I'll acknowledge it could be possible with heavy stat modifiers. After that, I'm sure an additional bonus monster could replace a M2 and provide cover for that strategy, while not weakening the team to much against the all M2 team that it would also be competing with.

I don't think that's balanced, and I didn't really feel that it needed to be discussed. Perhaps it does.

I'll send out the challenge: Name a team of six monsters that can, in a Red or Blue link battle, take 6 M2s on a consistent basis. Relying solely on the incompetence of your opponents isn't adequate (so hoping they all walk into your status mods isn't good enough: you can certainly count on sleeping one that can't kill you in one hit, but most of the time it comes to [1] See Mewtwo [2] Die horribly). Attempt to customize the M2s for the most situations possible. If you can come up with such a team, *please* post it here.

Good luck. My money's on the psychic demons, though

By the way, in Stadium, self destruct style moves always miss when performed on your opponent's last monster (I seem to recall: I could be mistaken), even if it isn't your last one performing them.

My big question was why Stadium made Mewtwo indestructable.

Oh well.

------------------
-cfalcon

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Dreamer:
Johnny Eagle,
Show up in PBS, let's see who's eyes will roll then...

---

When?

quote:

---

The game actually is pretty balanced. Some really good Pokemon don't have very good moves, like Exeggutor and Tentacruel. Of course, then there's the high-stat, awesome attacks Pokes. (Mewtwo, Starmie, Dragonite)
-Huor claims

---

No - Dragonite has a totally sucky x4 weakness to ice, and his stats are only average/below average except for his attack score.

Something I noticed with the extreme ended creatures (Electrode/Cloyster/Dragonite (excluding Mewtwo)). Is you can see how they tried to make the game fairer...

Cloyster: Highest defence in game - but pretty sucky in all other areas - can learn some moves to improve defence but is pretty crappy overall.

Electrode: Highest speed in game - it can learn speed enhancing moves - but is pretty sucky in many deptartments.

Dragonite: Highest attack in game - while his stats are above the other high end creatures he has a huge x4 weakness to Iceand his special could be improved. He can't bulk up his attack score either.

Mewtwo: Highest Special in game, second fastest in game, above average everything else... can learn Amnesia, Barrier and a few otehr decent moves... WHY?! - that's messed up the equality big time - but anyway I'll exclude him from the equality ratings.

Anyway - back to the "Blue pill syndrome" (cool matrix reference there) - anyway on this occasion I'll take the red pill so I can carry on deeper into the arguement...

Many of the restrictions (like species clause, kamakazi clause, freeze clause, sleep clause,no-mewtwos) can't be turned off as Nintendo has made them built into Stadium.

IMO the freeze, Kamakazi and Species clause totally suck - they restrict the players creativity no-end - and freezing isn't even a thing the player can control!

However while the sleep clause is restrciting it can be used to your advantage and even be incorperated into your tactics... (I regulary allow one of my creatures to sleep - hence preventing the enemy from making further sleep moves).

The 3 each side for gameboy doesn't work very well cuz the setup isn't like the way stadium sets it up, but I still like it better.

Basically, 3 on each side changes the complexion of the strategy. Rather than "which team is the best, period", which anyone can really "copy," we have "with the team I have, which three of my six will match up better against his possible picks." Now we enter the realm of MORE strategy, and even psyching out. I akin it to a game of poker and I really like this element.

With six out, you can CYA (Cover Your A**)pretty well, but with 3 choices, your forced to strategize and anticipate. Then, which I wish tourneys had, we could have a best out of three rounds with the six you picked to eliminate "luck." It's just goes by faster (and gives you more headaches just thinking about it).

As for the clauses, I like them too but with the 3 per side set; it works better and makes sense (even freeze: if you freeze one, don't be afraid of freezing another and you're fine. If you freeze two, fine, take the loss, no big deal). With six per side, it doesn't matter too much (if you get all six put to sleep or frozen, then something is wrong with your strategy...). As for the kamikaze thing, it becomes a draw on gameboy... so it's open to interpretation. As for kamikaze on stadium, you lose so, just don't.

The bottomline: no one can really have THE BEST TEAM OF three, and that's the point...

"If you actually believe the game on your screen should be taken literally as anything more than the output of a bunch of numbers being crunched in the cartridge based on your input...not only can I say you're flat out wrong, but I can say you've probably been watching the TV show WAY too much."
...um...let's take a look on what you said to me...
Fanha said "BTW, in answer to why I think like a computer in regards to Pokemon...
You play a detective game, you think like a detective.
You play a war game, you think like a warrior (or something along that line; you get the drift).
You play a computer (or GB) game, you think like a computer (logically).
It's that simple."
Now, what you're saying is that if you play a detective game you think like a detective.
Have you played Deja Vu for the GB?
You play a detective, but is on a cartridge.
So are you playing the ROLE of a detective or are you playing a bunch of 1s and 0s?
When you play a wargame you think like a warrior? Is this a video game war game? A classic table top wargame? A paintball wargame? Are you playing the role or are you playing the MATERIAL the game is made with?
So, you're saying if I'm playing a game like say AD&D, you're saying that I am not playing my character that infact I'm playing a bunch of paper and dice...
That when a person plays Mario Bros. they are not playing as Mario but as a bunch of 1s and 0s...
Pokémon is an RPG, a ROLE PLAYING GAME! That means, your those of you without any signs of imagination(present company included) is that you are PLAYING a ROLE in a GAME.
Deja Vu-Play as a detective, think like one
Warcraft-Play as a general, think like a warrior.
Pokémon-play as a trainer, think like one.
Pretty simple. Ofcourse, I don't think like a trainer when playing someone else, to me is more like a game of Magic:The Gathering.

"No matter how hard you "try", Pokemon is a computer game, operates under strict logical limitations (bar glitches) and is nothing more than a COMPUTERIZED strategy/roleplaying game."
The rules are setup by a computer, yes, but not what you can do with them.
The program gives you the rules, what you do with them is what counts.

"You may "dream" if you want, TGD, but Pokemon will never be anything more than data on a chip graphically rendered for you to better understand, PERIOD."
So, you think that chess, for example, is nothing more than a board wich play pieces?
That poker is nothing but a game of money and cards? That D&D is nothing than a game of paper and dice? That football is nothing but a game of a ball in a field?
No, all these games are more than that, they have another side to them, a side that is in the mind. Thus, if football for example, was just a game of a ball in a field it wouldn't be one of the most successful business in the US. If D&D was just a game of paper and dice it would have never been the Father of all RPGs like it is today. If Pokémon is a game of just 1s and 0s it would have never been as successful.
Games are more than just what they're made of, they have concepts and concepts are the core of ideas and thoughs. Like a house is not just a bunch of bricks, a house has a concept behind it, the biggest concept is that a house can be a home, wich is not the same...That is the part that you're missing, you see, you don't get it...unfortunately...

"It's sad if you actually feel you are an obligated "Pokemon trainer" and you actually think any possibilities are "unlimited" like in real life."
The only thing I'm obligated to is my loved ones and unfortunately my bills, anything else goes so don't put ASSume I feel something I don't. The opportunities are unlimited, as in the way you can use the tools provided to you. Whenever they are useful or not is another matter.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." -Albert Einstein

------------------
"In fact, if you'll look back to where this originated, it's in Azure's attempt to "get a good laugh" out of TPM. Now how mature is that?" - Dodrio, posted on Azure Heights

"I realize that; however, you don't realize that those strategies are not outside numeric limitations."
Fanha, I understand that the numbers cannot be changed, what I'm saying is how you USE those numbers...

"Luck, or an inferior team on his part."
O.K., then even hitting Psychic can be called an act of luck since there is a chance it will miss! Bah! Relative!
This is an example of what I'm talking about, now, put away your dinamyte sticks, I don't want you to blow it out of porportion:
P1 has a jolteon
P2 has an electrode
electrode Thunder Wave
jolteon FP
electrode Flash, hits!
jolteon Thunder Wave, missed!
electrode Flash, hits!
Jolteon Thunder Wave, missed!
P2 switches to a slowbro!
Jolteon Thunder Wave, missed!
slowbro Double Team
Jolteon FP.
slowbro Double Team again.
Jolteon Thunder Bolt, missed!
(slobro is a slowblow)

Why did P2 put a slowbro with a strong electric? Because the opponent would obsess to try and Bolt after it while the bro powered up. Shifting the chances to your favor, this doesn't mean is guara-damn-teed but it works more often that it doesn't.
Yeah, that lucky CH bolt can come along but is unlikely, you are just shifting chances to your favor.
This is just an example...I said put away your dinamyte sticks...don't lite 'em...Fanha, put away the lighter...no....I said....don't lit it....don't tease now...c'mon man put it away...SHIT! *Runs*
BOOOOM!

=^P

...just an example...

"Magic is not Pokemon. It can't even compare to the TCG. There's no luck involved outside of deck drawing (which can be quite considerable), so it's more strategy than anything. And I used to play with my friends with my who-knows-how-small collection where I didn't have enough mana/creatures for a single color deck, and I still won quite often with a very elementary, disorganized green/black mix."
Yes, it can be compared to Pokémon in some areas, i didn't say it was JUST LIKE Magic.
I'll tell you this though, Magic is closer to pokémon than Starcraft...

"The difference is you don't have to draw from the deck; you already have all your cards. That's why your comparison is moot; a big card can be moot if it's not drawn, which doesn't happen in this case."
With pokémon is opportunities that have to become available to you.
Is not like Starcraft is any better.
On either game, lacks psychological strategy, that's why in Magic or Starcraft you couldn't pull, say, a Crazy Ivan when in pokémon you still can't, but you can at least do a reverse Crazy Ivan to work to your advantage to power up a champion.

"Not much...I've been playing for over 2 years, played at high-level competition, and won consistantly, and been content with playing similar type of teams. Why? Because certain strategies just win a lot more often. That's the beauty of an unbalanced system. It's funny, because if people thought my OHKO team was bad now, imagine in G/S, where it doesn't depend on speed and it can be used with "Lock On"/"Concentrate" for 100% accuracy!"
Strategy quality and strategy popularity are 2 different things.
How do you think good strategies are discovered? Not in a dream or a sign from God. No, by playing around with what NO ONE is willing to play with because they ASSume it sucks because NO ONE else uses it.
Is a fatal loop, this is called scouting and unlocking potential from pokés, this is what I do best.

But you know what?
Since G&S are just around the corner and it will take me too long(with work and all) to proove the old system is balanced and for nothing at the end.
I'll just listen to the other trainers from PBS, wich I have been discussing this with, and focus my energy of research in G&S.
Since I haven't bothered researching it until I actually get a cartridge, I'll have alot to catch up, but it'll be fun...

------------------
"The Great Dreamer Has Written..."
-Luis The Bard, The Great Dreamer-

Magic, on the other hand, has time for instants to be played in response to everything but playing land.

I attack with Llanowar Elves. Do you block? With what? This is heavily based on the contents of your hand, and what kind of deck I'm playing. I might Giant Growth them. I might Might of Oaks them, which could be enough to do you in (8 damage is a lot). What am I holding?

That's a lot more possibilities than "which of his 6 possible options (4 moves, 2 switches: 9 if you aren't playing tournament rules) will show up?

Saying "I beat this kid who had better cards / monsters with better stats" doesn't say much, besides that he didn't play right, or doesn't know how to construct a deck / monster.

I can *make* a bad Mewtwo.

The question is whether you can take someone who isn't messing up much, if at all.

What I'm trying to say here is: I wouldn't lose to a Lickitung in the aggregate, and neither will most people here. A lucky victory is just that, and in a 2/3 match it won't help you much...

Just putting expensive cards in a deck doesn't make it good. Just putting strong monsters on a team doesn't make it good, either. But there is a key difference: Rare cards in Magic aren't always good. Hurts to say, but it's true. Though Wizards seems to put far more power cards as Rares and Uncommons, pay attention sometime to what would happen if you were to just buy a few packs and play. Plenty of rares are artifacts that are hardly useful, and many are big creatures with serious disadvantages: disadvantages that become trivial if you have shitloads of cards and can build a deck around it. If you can't, however, they are worse than useless.

So I won't say expensive, I'll say good. Birds of Paradise and Llanowar Elves are both good cards, and the Birds cost two orders of magnitude more, in general ($10.00 versus $0.10). Many decks select the elves over the Birds, however, as they do have one small advantage (can do a point of damage a round).

If I make a deck of good cards and I know how to build decks, it will be pretty strong. If I make a team of strong pokémon and give them good moves, they will also be strong.

I'll break it down: a team with crap monsters can't beat a good team, period. Caterpie doesn't make my team quiver. It never will, I don't care what you do with it (Tackle or String Shot, choose!).

A personal opinion: I like the tournament rules (3v3) better than I like the FFA rules (6v6). Six on six takes a really long time, and all of the guesswork was done ahead of time, when the team was created. Choosing three based on their six is both a good deal of strategy (choose monsters good against theirs), and of guessing (which will he use? which won't he use?) and makes the rock-scissors-paper aspect of pokémon very pronounced and in your face. It also punishes you for choosing wrong, whereas the six on six is a little to forgiving, in my opinion.

I can see how anyone would feel differently, though.

Please note that Freeze clause is pretty much OK in Stadium, where it simply won't let you freeze the second monster. In GB rules, if the second freeze comes up, you lose. On N64, it's ignored. You may have a point by claiming that it shouldn't be so at all, but I think we all have to agree that as long as a freeze doesn't equate to auto-lose it isn't total trash.

I tend to agree with the kamikaze clause, for the reason stated above: that much damage with no disadvantage isn't fair, and making a game a draw which should have been a loss is too strong.

Stadium doesn't play it right, which pisses me off though: if I have three living monsters versus their one, they *deserve* to lose to an explosion. The cost: I lose a monster. It might not matter, but the fact that I still have some standing means that I should win.

------------------
-cfalcon

Anyway, if you wanna use normally shite pokemon like Beedrill and Butterfree, play Sucky Cup. All I have to say.

------------------
--EYNH
"The lone person who has cloned so much his cart cloned itself....is not me."