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Author Topic: Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-17-2000 10:50 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. K:If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.

Woohoo!*adds quote to sig*

EYNH:For me, it's way more fun trying to take down pokemon stronger than mine.

You DO know that completely contradicts your mewtwo use....right?

EYNH:Agreed, I'm training my own fun team with Pokemon I like. I'm not gonna use it for any major competition or anything.

*rubs eyes* Am i seeing right?

Well...i GARUNTEE you will have much more fun then using mewtwo..

Fanha:As I said last night, I'm dropping this arguement. Argo is making quite impartial comparisons that don't make sense, and some other people are just resorting to calling others idiots and cussing. It's sad how such intelligent people can degenerate. Anyhow it's no use to argue with some people who only see one half of the picture, and others who don't wish to even hear arguements they label rediculous without seeing if there is any merit to them.

They dont make sense to you,because you are pro mewtwo.Ignorance can be forced upon your mind,indirectly when you believe in your Mewtwo so much.

I may be only seeing half of your story,but you are seeing 0% of mine.I am the one making invalid points?haha...you're the one who keeps bringing on the SAME crap over..and denying the completely obvious.

Fanha:And I definitely don't ignore logic.

Yet you continue to believe mewtwo and slowbro are equals?

Acey was right about the hippocracy..

Fanha:- Slowbro has resistances to Ice and Water, two of the most popular types. He also resists Fire, popular among newbies.
- Mewtwo doesn't resist anything but Psychic and Fighting, and Slowbro already resists those.
(The whole attack thing is pointless considering we're not using Attack with Slowbro)
- Grass attacks are NOT one of the most popular in the game. I don't think that's a hard-to-back-up statement; Electric, Ice, Water, Normal, Ground, and Psychic would probably be the "most popular types" list; I might be missing one. Slowbro is resistant to THREE and weak to one; Mewtwo is resistant to ONE and weak to none.
- Mewtwo gains STAB from one type
- Slowbro gains it from TWO
- They both have the same maximum special, but Slowbro with Surf can do more damage than even a Mewtwo w/ STAB Psychic; THAT'S huge! If you're saying Mewtwo's huge damage is cheap, Slowbro's got him beat with TWO attacks that meet or beat Mewtwo's best (Psychic vs Psychic and Surf).
- Slowbro does NOT have one of the lowest Specials; if he did he wouldn't be able to hit 999, like Snorlax.
- Mewtwo Recovers half HP with Recover, while Slowbro recovers all HP and status ailments with Rest at a two-turn cost. He's harder to force into a "Recover loop" (look around my other posts if you don't know).
- Mewtwo does NOT learn every element TM; check your list Argo.
- Mewtwo counters are found on MANY more teams than the Grass counters for Slowbro and Electrics. Some teams don't even have an Electric; almost EVERY team has an anti-Mewtwo. Slowbro counters aren't used as sparingly, either; they're often lead Pokemon and thus can be damaged earlier.

Bah...im just so BORED of arguing with you,its like there's a huge interceptor of logic infront of you..i most definatly can,and if you really want me to,i will.

Fanha:if they didn't Argo couldn't do such a detailed comparison!

I was comparing OPPOSITE aspects ^_^

And how far away they are from each other on the cheap scale..

Oh...and Gamefaqs has 8-7 NO mewtwo votes....UPN has more No's then Yes's....and RPG gamer is still deciding,mostly NO.

Give the people what they want,if they cant have fun in this tourney,there is no point to have it at all.


------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2000 02:26 AM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that's good to hear. Unfortunately, that might make Azure look like the "ignorant" board, Argo. So far, I'm the only one who has voted "NO" on Mewtwo use (check the official vote post under this forum) from Azure. I hope they tally individual votes, and not board majorities, because the Pro-Mewtwo side on Azure has already forced at least a tie, and AgentM2 still hasn't voted (I'm pretty sure he'll vote yes). Looks like my vote was probably just a waste. Kinda like voting for a democrat in a republican-heavy state, eh?

------------------
"Yeah Ramon. That'll happen."


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2000 02:40 AM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have no fear,starcaliber..it will be tallied by individual posts...not the majorities of the boards.

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Enter Your Name Here
Farting Nudist
Member # 57

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posted 06-18-2000 03:33 AM      Profile for Enter Your Name Here   Email Enter Your Name Here   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:

You DO know that completely contradicts your mewtwo use....right?

I normally don't need to. I foughtr like 7 battles, most against kids with rep pokemon (who actually used STRATEGY!). I only needed Mewtwo thrice. Once because Fahna's Mewtwo was staring me down with only a Rapidash, Vaporeon (with no attacking PP) and Mewtwo left, once because I made a stupid error by sending out Zapdos prematurely against Jeff, and the other time I lost anyway.

quote:
*rubs eyes* Am i seeing right?

Well...i GARUNTEE you will have much more fun then using mewtwo..


You know, my team before this was simply my favorite pokemon plus Mewtwo. Electrode (besides Mewtwo, only one that's not one of my faves), Magneton, Zapdos, Vaporeon, Rapidash, and of course Mewtwo.

The fun team I'm training, I don't exactly know what I'm gonna use. Magneton's definently gonna be on, Rapidash and Vaporeon probably are...Aerodactyl...Golbat...I dunno what else.

*realizes this is pretty much my poke team, and shuts up*

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"


Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Enter Your Name Here
Farting Nudist
Member # 57

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posted 06-18-2000 03:39 AM      Profile for Enter Your Name Here   Email Enter Your Name Here   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by abz1986:

- What the fu--? Thats not what prime cup is made for! Prime Cup was made for the soul purpose of using level 100 pokemon and battling it all out. Sure, there is this Mewtwo involved, but if you're battling with your friends, you can ban Mew/two. Besides, the Pokecup dosesn't ban Mewtwo(does it?... the rulebook just says it bans Mew). You can still catch 100+ mewtwos and candy them to Level 50.



The people with L50 Mewtwos are the people who either shark or missingno, those are the people you don't wanna battle anyway, for the safety of your cart. (Maybe not as much shark as missingno, but..) Your friends might not notice or care, but NoA will at an official tourney.

And yeah, Mew's banned too. Poke Cup is pretty much variety personified, through the level variety, variety in pokemon now that Type-Mew is out of the picture...meh.

*feels like he's gonna get flamed for this, for some reason*

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"


Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

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posted 06-18-2000 05:22 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fanha:*I try to exit, and people keep trying to pull me back. Can't people not talk to someone who is leaving?*
I'm only reposting to defend myself, since this was a personal attack.

Well, sorry, but the whole leaving thing smells of "cop out." I've come across it in many other debates as well. I recognise it when I see it...

By the way, if my post was that much of a personal attack, every single post of yours was worse. At least I make no assumptions like: "You probably had a crap Mew/Mewtwo" etc and general condescendingness as to my skills as a trainer. Not to mention blatantly changing what I say to something you can attack.

Actually I had about 8 pages worth of stuff written in Word that was too big to post, and most of it was against your arguements. And I definitely don't ignore logic.

8 pages huh? Do me a favour and read through it and snip all the stuff you've already spoken about and been disproven on. I mean seriously, I read all of your latest arguments and *nothing* here is new.

No, the reason I'm leaving is stuff like this. Personal attacks/flamings. For example:

Mr. K: And I stand by my statement that anyone who claims that Mewtwo isn't cheap (or some equivalent word) is a total idiot.

Actually, I agree with Mr K. Except I would word it out like this: Anyone who genuinely doesn't believe Mewtwo isn't cheap is an idiot. Or at least doesn't know that much about Pokemon.

I think I know that you yourself think Mewtwo is cheap. Except you try to justify it by calling it something else and not make yourself look so bad by using on him.

Now read what I wrote here (hope the code works):

http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum6/HTML/000149-2.html

Now you know exactly what cheap is. Though you should have had a good idea already ...

And stuff like this. Including this very message I'm replying to which is nothing but a flame against me.

Oh, so I'm flaming you now am I? Like I said, if my posts are flames, your posts are worse. If I was *really* flaming you, you'd know =p. Stop being so sensitive.

Now then on we go. Slowbro again? Geez, do I have to keep repeating myself? By the way, Mr K was right in that you resort to being too nitpicky and you should really look at the big picture and read the title of the thread yet again.

- Slowbro has resistances to Ice and Water, two of the most popular types. He also resists Fire, popular among newbies.

All good ... except he is fatally weak to electric and grass - and electric is the most popular type along with psychic. I'm afraid you have to try again. (on second thought don't unless you have some new material - new relevant material that is).

And if Newbies enter the equation, you can count on Venusaur being a popular Pokemon.


- Mewtwo doesn't resist anything but Psychic and Fighting, and Slowbro already resists those.

I'd rather resist nothing but psychic than be fatally weak to electric and grass. I'm sorry but this doesn't cut it either. By the way, Mewtwo doesn't really need resisitances with his tanky stats which can be backed up further by defensive moves.


(The whole attack thing is pointless considering we're not using Attack with Slowbro)

*Shrug*. TeeJay was using an argument about earthquaking Slowbro. Which is good in theory but like many things fail when put to use 9 times out of 10.


- Grass attacks are NOT one of the most popular in the game. I don't think that's a hard-to-back-up statement; Electric, Ice, Water, Normal, Ground, and Psychic would probably be the "most popular types" list; I might be missing one. Slowbro is resistant to THREE and weak to one; Mewtwo is resistant to ONE and weak to none.

Mewtwo weak to none you say? Thanks for backing us up. By the way resistances don't make up for weaknesses like I said earlier. So what if Slowbro is resistant to water and ice? He is critically weak to Electric and Grass and is able to be quite easily one-hit KOed.


- Mewtwo gains STAB from one type
- Slowbro gains it from TWO

But dies to two extra as a result. The handicap is NOT worth it.


- They both have the same maximum special, but Slowbro with Surf can do more damage than even a Mewtwo w/ STAB Psychic; THAT'S huge!

Wow Huge! 5 extra power ... but I'm afraid this falls flat too due to Slowbro needing three turns to amnesia while Mewtwo only needs 2. Mewtwo can be maxed out before Slowbro can. If he even needs to due to Thunderbolt/Thunder.


- Slowbro does NOT have one of the lowest Specials; if he did he wouldn't be able to hit 999, like Snorlax.

Snorlax has bad special. Just because Slowbro's is a bit better doesn't mean it's not bad either. Why do you think they gave the 2 of them amnesia? =p

On the other hand ... why did they want M2 to learn amnesia? It's because they wanted to create a God-like Pokemon as a reward for finishing the game.


- Mewtwo Recovers half HP with Recover, while Slowbro recovers all HP and status ailments with Rest at a two-turn cost. He's harder to force into a "Recover loop" (look around my other posts if you don't know).

So you say rest is better than recover? Yeah right. Look at it this way ... if you get forced into a recover loop, rest won't save you either. You miss *3* goes when you rest.

This point is moot though as Mewtwo can learn rest as well if for some reason the trainer wants to. I think you forgot that little point.


- Mewtwo does NOT learn every element TM; check your list Argo.

Okay, what element doesn't he learn? Don't just say, "nay", you have to provide details. If you say Ground, that isn't an element tm remember. Elements are the ones that depend on special. Water is moot too since Ice is overall better than water. IIRC The only thing water can kill that ice can't is fire and when was fire a powerhouse in RBY?


- Mewtwo counters are found on MANY more teams than the Grass counters for Slowbro and Electrics.

Due to ignorance. This doesn't prove a thing of your argument. It's cheap to newbies yes, but everything is cheap to newbies. But you know what? Mewtwo on newbies is far and away even cheaper.


Some teams don't even have an Electric; almost EVERY team has an anti-Mewtwo.

No offence but this is utter crap. I don't think I need to explain myself either as its obvious. *Every* team has a damn electric in it and possibly even more know electric moves via the excellent thunderbolt tm.

At one point, I had everyone on my whole team knowing an electric attack ... =p it's due to water being so popular.

And this is NOT to prove his is BETTER than Slowbro (for those who STILL can't grab that *cough*Argo*cough*), but to prove he is also CHEAP just as Mewtwo is if Mewtwo is indeed cheap.

What was that about insults and flaming? If you're gonna complain about it being done to you, don't start. In other words - if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

By the way, here is (one of the) the main reason why Slowbro isn't as cheap as Mewtwo. Other than raw numbers stats and types that is (which Mewtwo wins by a landslide anyways).

The game of Pokemon was meant to be like a glorified paper, scossors, rock game at its base level. No type was meant to be overpoweringly strong with no real counter to it. That is why weaknesses were added to every Pokemon. (although everyone knows Psychic is a broken type in RBY. Weak to Bug?Really?)

Sure, Slowbro is strong, but he has huge weaknesses and smart people *will* exploit them to bring it down. Slowbro is a water pokemon other than a psychic one. While water is strong, it a isn't broken type as the other types can kill it.

Now, along comes Mewtwo, who is just simply a broken Pokemon. He doesn't fit in with the game at all really. He has no real weakness and added to the super stats he quite simply rules. And the ways you bring him down can also bring down *every* single other Pokemon in the game. (except for the possibility of kamikaze pokemon on Rock types - who are overwhelmingly fragile anyway due to their non-existant special). Not that I count kamikaze Pokemon as proper XXX-Killers as they also kill *themselves*.

Quite simply: Mewtwo is in a whole different realm of cheapness than Slowbro is. Slowbro's cheapness is about on the level of Snorlax, Exeguttor etc. Actually, I think Mew is better than Slowbro as well.

But anyways, Nintendo's Gold and Silver seem to agree that RBY Mewtwo was too strong. Nintendo themselves can't be wrong about it.

I wonder if you and the other Mewtwo-lovers will stick by him so loyally when G/S comes. Dark is gonna totally kick ass =)

Most of my arguement HAS been numbers, types, and situations.

Then why do you ignore Mewtwo's? You're using selective argument style - that is pick only the bits that agree with you and ignore the rest. Do you not even see that 406 special attached to Mewtwo?

And I was trying to indirectly refer to Mr. K brushing off the Slowbro/Mewtwo comparison as stupid without even taking a systematic approach.

Not eveyone has the patience to slog through your stuff and counter everything like I do. And actually to do this, one does need a *lot* of patience due to your fondness to recycle arguments. I wouldn't blame him as other people have already done the talking for him which you choose to ignore.

Lates,

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2000 06:21 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll just pick the most ludicrous of your laundry list of things that prove nothing to respond to...

quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:
Mewtwo counters are found on MANY more teams than the Grass counters for Slowbro and Electrics.

So, because Mewtwo is so cheap that nearly everyone has a Pokemon on their team designed specifically to deal with him, he's not cheap? You're out of your gourd.

quote:
I was trying to indirectly refer to Mr. K brushing off the Slowbro/Mewtwo comparison as stupid without even taking a systematic approach.

I have shown you my systematic approach.

What defines a Pokemon in battle? Stats, attacks, and type. That's it.

1. Mewtwo has the best stats.
2. Mewtwo has the move even you might consider "cheap", and has access to nearly every other great move.
3. Mewtwo has the best type.

No other Pokemon meets these requirements.

Can you think of one with better stats? No.

Can you think of one with better moves? Slowbro gets 5 more points out of Surf, but no Special lowering. Mew can Swift Dance. Neither are clearly better, so this one can't tip the balance.

Anyone else got the best type? Sure, a few. Do they also have the best stats? Uh-oh, there goes your argument.

That's it.

Game over, man.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7

Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2000 05:20 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.


Mr. K's a cyborg!

------------------
COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sephiroth27
Farting Nudist
Member # 537

Rate Member
posted 06-18-2000 06:10 PM      Profile for Sephiroth27   Author's Homepage   Email Sephiroth27   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yep, although I'm a newbie I can say he is...
and in some way related to Bender!?

------------------
You wanna know how I get my kicks? I'll tell you, I liek ta' mugwump lil' kids and their quote "Ultimate Charizard Team"...
I make em' cry, then I laugh in their face...
I'm insane!!!
formly known as Pichu27 the best...


From: Pallet Town, All Rights Reserved. | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2000 08:49 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*sigh*

I am not going to argue Fanha...only a few things...i will ignore the stuff you said that are "blah".

Fanha:If you deny that's logical, there's no use arguing with you. You twist definitions of words.

Haha!! look who's talking!

Fanha:Fine, but Azure Heights, from what I sees, has a pretty strong YES vote.

No matter,17 NO votes in total,which means NO Mewtwo in this tourney..

Fanha:There you go dictating again...it's quite annoying. Mr. K and I and several others agree it's stupid to have a board divided by individual votes considering we are competing as boards, not individuals. (What I mean is the groupings are by board, so you can't have a group divided against itself.)

Fine....still

NO MATTER

3 boards vote a majority of NO,one votes a majority of YES.

Guess what..

NO mewtwo..

Fanha:You also get the idea that myself and others are "stuck on" Mewtwo. I myself don't really care; I play Mewtwo when he's allowed, I don't when he's not. I only fight to stop this flaming of people who use Mewtwo just because they use him; that's quite prejudice.

Sure you're stuck on him...because you have polymovoLOSINGphobia.

No fanha,Hush now....all i ask,is read through all your posts with the word "risk" in it.

You make it seem like winning is everything,and in order to win,you must use mewtwo.You have the lowest morality of anyone i have met...besides some guy who has sharked lvl 255 mewtwo's x6 with spore..god man,whats ticking me off is you cant admit mewtwo unbalances the game,and its NO fun with him.

You say you have fun with him?

hah..i pity you,because you are only fooling yourslef...the only fun you have is seeing "You Win" at the end of every battle.And in order to achieve more "You wins" so you can have your fun,you try to get it at ANY cost..and that cost is mewtwo.He IS like drugs....and you are just ignoring ALL the posts the anti mewtwo posters have made,because you've been tricked so many times by mewtwo and yourself,your mind sets that mewtwo isnt cheap as a DEFAULT...because being cheap is being bad,and how could a bad thing cause fun?

Pff..more mewtwo-drugs relation.....


Bah..screw this,i am not replying to any of your other arguments this time...too long,and probably the same monotonous(SP?) krap..

Keep fooling yourself,Fanha...it may not seem serious/blievable to you,but it is.

As Sama once said..

Baby jesus cries when you use mewtwo

^_^;;


------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo

[This message has been edited by Argo (edited 06-18-2000).]


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2000 11:00 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Meh teejay,calm down....I'm Catholic.

It's not offensive to me...

And to some extent,it think its true.

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

Rate Member
posted 06-19-2000 09:51 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Geez, calm down people ... and that Jesus line was obviously meant to be a joke...

Now then ... replies ... ^_* But I'll try to cut out the unnessecary stuff... note the word, try ...

Fanha: Okay, I don't wish to be drawn into a flaming war...I just wanted to leave this conversion...

This isn't a flaming war ... or at least I don't see anything here that could constitute as a real flame ... I've been in flamewars, I know what they look like ^_*

No, they don't make sense because you selectively post facts. If you made a fair comparison, that would be one thing, but when you only post what makes you look good, that's what I'm talking about.

Now you know why I accuse you of hypocrisy. Isn't your whole reason for this debate is to not look so bad since you'll use Mewtwo given half the chance? Also, since you're the one making positive claims (Slowbro is as cheap as Mewtwo therefore Mewtwo is not that cheap etc), it falls on you to provide the burden of proof. I'm only negating your statements.

I AM ONLY TRYING TO PROVE THEY WORK SIMILAR, NOT WHICH IS BETTER.

I could quote you, proving this as untrue, ya know. But I'm too lazy to search through all the messages again. Just don't try to use this to support yourself again or I will have to search for the evidence and make you look silly...

And rearranging your words and showing different examples of your points isn't "illegal", it just hurts your arguement because it shows some of your points aren't entirely correct.

OMG! In a debate, you NEVER change what the other person says just so you can counter it. If it hurts anything, it hurts your credibility as a debater and the credibility of your argument. What you are doing is misrepresenting me, which taken at the extreme is downright lying. I think there's a term for this in a court of law but since I'm not a Law student, the word escapes me at the moment ...

No matter what you think, it was still an outright flame. I don't see what else you could call it. Calling people idiots is one of the purer forms of flaming.

It wasn't a flame coz he said, "If". He genuinely thinks that you don't really think Mewtwo isn't cheap. Or the cheap he defines it as. You may call it another word ... like unbalanced, but that is the same thing as cheap.

So basically you are calling me a lier, and saying, even though you've never met me in person, how I think internally and stuff.

No, I think you're confused. And I go from other evidence from your other posts to make my conclusions. In other words, "If it smells like poo, looks like poo and tastes like poo, it probably is poo." No offence on the usage of poo, it was just the best analogy I could think of at the moment ...

That's EXACTLY my definition I gave earlier. What does having to put a Pokemon on your team have to do with "achieved with little effort"? I don't get it. I thing some people are confused.

YOU'RE the one confused, I'm afraid. There has been continual quoting of definitions and explanations, it's not anyone's fault you don't read things through properly.

Now for the billionth time, "what is achived with little effort?" It's the Victory (tm). Mewtwo makes winning easy(er).

BTW I reposted the definition at the end of this post. I suggest you read through it more clearly this time.

Well, yes, by flaming me, you signify to be you want me to flame you back. The golden rule says that...

Actually, I've only been responding to your posts. So if these are indeed flames, they are only responses to your flames *shrug*.

And he's not "fatally" weak; that's like saying Mewtwo is "fatally" weak to Bug...it's just weak...

So ... you think Slowbro being weak to grass and electric is on the same level of Mewtwo being weak to bug? If this is indeed your assertion then ... damn I better not say anything in case you think it's a flame *_*

If newbies enter the equation you're looking at a whole new environment with imperfect stats and the like...

*shrug* You're the one who brought Newbies into the argument (with Slowbro being more effective than Mewtwo since Newbies don't know about him) so don't look at me...

Slowbro can because "tankier" in stats than Mewtwo. His special can reach 999 after only one more turn,

Only one more turn? Turns are critical in Pokemon. Not to mention that Slowbro is just that ... slow. He will always lose the initative. If you say Toby, yet another turn is wasted from Thunderwave. But what happens if Toby is paralyzed himself?

Also consider that Slowbro is much more fragile than Mewtwo having 2 fatal weaknesses whereas Mewtwo has none. (Bug unfortuantely is not fatal or even minor). He has less chance of surviving those extra turns.

plus he has more defense from the start. I'm not showing they're equal, but they sure as hell are comparable. And there's more of this "fatally" weak stuff. Mewtwo would be "fatally" weak to physical attacks then; would you like me to dramatize as you were doing?

40 odd stat points is hardly worth mentioning considering both pokes are already in the upper percentile of defence points and both are not rock types. As for comparable you haven't proved anything yet, as everything you've said has been disproved. And Mewtwo being fatally weak to physical attacks ... that's a joke since *every* Pokemon (including your almighty Slowbro) is fatally weak to physical attacks with the conditions you're giving it (swords dance, explosion etc). Rock Pokemon you say? Swords Danced Earthquake. Besides your kamikazes are rendered null from substitute anyways (I remember arguing this before).

Now "critically" instead of "fatally"?

Yeah. So? They mean about the same thing. Do you want me to go back and edit my post to change it? -_-;; GEEZ! This is as bad as spelling nitpicking.

Anyhow, Swords Dance + Explosion = one-hit Mewtwo KO just like Focus Energy + Thunderbolt = one-hit Slowbro KO. And both will one-hit KO on a CH.

This is UNCOMPARABLE. SD + Explosion you *lose* one Pokemon as well. FE + Thunderbolt, you do not. And kamikazes are foiled by substitute - FE Tbolt are not (Slowbro put up a sub? So what - there are more Thunderbolts where that came from! You just lost 1/4 life for free).

*shrug* It's in strategy. If you can "lure" out your opponent's Electrics (play like a Starmie and such) and beat on them you should have a good latecoming Slowbro.

You're giving yourself unfair conditions again. Using your logic I could say Dragonites are God of Pokemon since I can 'lure' out Ice users. And your logic is also suicidal - it just killed itself, considering the same thing with Mewtwo. I can just 'lure' out your "Mewtwo-killers" and have a good latecoming Mewtwo.

It's still MORE than Mewtwo...that's saying a LOT...you're saying everything's less but this is more.

It's argumentatively not because Psychic also has 1/3 chance of lowering special. The tinsy bit of 5 power is made-up for.

And like I said, it's in strategy; it's not too hard to buy yourself ONE turn more.

What happens if the other player also uses strategy?

Slowbro's special is not "one of the worst".

Depends on how you look at it. It certainly has the worst out of the other psychic types. Also, what is the cut-off point for "worst"? The point is moot. Just that Slowbro has pretty bad special *shrug*. Worst is only a word to be nitpicked over.

And STAB on Water, no STAB on Ice, 'nuff said.

Who cares when you're already doing so much anyways? And a super effective is always better than a STAB. Mewtwo can capitalise on Super Effectives, whereas Slowbro usually can't - unless the opponent is silly and sends out a rock/ground/ground against it.

I've seen many teams without an Electric. Simple as that.

Leave the Newbies out of it (you're the one who introduced it, not me remember). At the higher levels of play there are *always* electrics and/or electric moves.

Actually, I've been showing his "raw stats" match Mewtwo's.

Let's see ...

Slowbro Mewtwo
393 415
248 318
318 278
158 358
258 406

Sorry, I don't see it matching up I'm afraid. The one stat he beats Mewtwo in is defence, but defence is irrelevant since Slowbro's critical (fatal if it makes you feel better) weakness depends on special. And like I said, at those numbers, the extra points are hardly significant.

The speed difference is assumed (one goes first, other doesn't; that simple).

I don't know about you, but speed is the most important stat in my honest opinion. You can't fight back if you're knocked out in one turn. Also, switching is a lot less riskier out against a slow Pokemon. (you don't miss 2 goes)

The attack difference is irrelevant on Slowbro.

It makes him less versatile. Attack is very important to your much personally highly acclaimed self destructing Mewtwo.

The defense difference gives Slowbro an edge.

No. I've explained it in my other posts and I just explained it again up above. Defence is IRRELEVANT. SD Explosion can kill Slowbro too - *and* he has lower HP.

Same Special potential in one more turn.

Which is a light year in the actual game. And you go *last* unless you have Toby after the 1st turn, but not if they have sub.

Slightly more HP on Mewtwo (not like 100 difference or anything big).

Unlike the other stats, every point of HP counts more. The way that Pokemon's formulas work is that having extra points of HP means more survivability than having extra points of special/defence. Sound familiar? Because that bit of info came from this very site.


There is NOT a HUGE RELEVANT stat difference.

Slowbro

Total=1375 AVG=275

Mewtwo

Total=1775 AVG=355

Yes there is a HUGE relevant stat difference. Even huger if you consider defence irrelevant for this comparison and count special twice.

I thought I had already showed that.

Quite frankly, no. You use the same argument that gets beaten every time.

Slowbro is behind Mewtwo, but not HUGELY behind him.

I consider it to be.

Numbers aren't everything, especially with Speed and unused stats.

Every stat is used. We are taking Slowbro and Mewtwo on generally who is the better/cheaper Pokemon? But you're right, numbers aren't everything, it's also the type and learnable moves.

Slowbro Mewtwo
Water/Psychic Psychic

No contest, Mewtwo is the winner. No weaknesses, unlike Slowbro.

Moves? I think you know Mewtwo beats out Slowbro at that too. The most glaring one being that Slowbro can't learn Thunderbolt. The only good thing is earthquake, but since no electrics can learn amnesia and are generally fragile ...

So you're looking at a Speed advantage for Mewtwo, slight HP and Special advantage,

Slight special advantage? Did you know Slowbro has the worst special out of all the psychics? Mewtwo has 148 stat points higher. That's almost as much as Slowbro's whole speed! Which basically guarantees that a CH will kill him outright when faced with his weaknesses. And Amnesia is not a factor when you consider he has to setup when a good strategist will *not* let you do that. And even if you do, a hazer can ruin you or a CH.

You obviously can't respect the classic one-for-one sacrifice. Comes clear from the game of Chess, a game of strategy. If you get a more powerful opponent, the trade was worthwhile.

Well, yeah, but it doesn't factor in to Mewtwo's cheapness. If you have to sacrifice a Pokemon for that, it helps our argument. Besides, kamikazes are way too risky. Sub can wreck it or a switch can as well. By the way, don't put in any more chess examples as the post starting off this thread already ruined that one for you.

but with Mewtwo gone Slowbro is blatently "cheap" almost at the Mewtwo level.

No. If there was no such thing as electric types or grass types (or their respecting moves), only *then* Slowbro would be as cheap as Mewtwo. And maybe not even - you could make a strong case for Snorlax as well.

I just stick by the fact he's not cheap.

Shall I whip out the dictionary.com's definition again? No, not just yet, let me quote something for you =)

I take my definitions from a book called the "dictionary"...

Do you now? Then take this:

cheap (chp)
adj. cheap·er, cheap·est.

Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.

Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.

I snipped out the irrelevant definitions this time. A Mewtwo victory is definitely a "cheap" victory. A Mewtwo player against a non-Mewtwo player can win with little effort.

You say you have Mewtwo Killers? Fine, but then all things being equal, the Mewtwo Player gets to pick strong Pokemon to back himself up as well (like say... TobyBro, Mew, Exeguttor, Snorlax etc) and let Mewtwo go last. What happens when your fine "Mewtwo-killers" bite the dust before Mewtwo comes out? Boom, you lose. And the funny thing is that even if you do have a surviving Mewtwo-killer, you'll probably still lose.

A strategist with Mewtwo on their already excellent team *will* beat a strategist of around equal level who doesn't have Mewtwo 99.6% of the time. The other .4 percent is for the times the other guys gets lucky. But since luck shouldn't be part of the equation since all things should be equal other than Mewtwo ...

I think that sums it up ...

Seeyas!

PS I say 99.6% because that seems to be the percentage of the most accurate moves in Pokemon other than swift =p

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 06-19-2000 03:20 PM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Acey, that's a NICE post. Very nice. Good work. I think the anti-Mewtwo side has proven its point.

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"Yeah Ramon. That'll happen."


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7

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posted 06-19-2000 04:39 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think both sides proved their points LOOOOONG ago.

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"It will make you laugh, cry, want to kill Fanha, laugh again, cry some more, want to kill TeeJay, etc."
-StarCaliber, on Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

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posted 06-19-2000 05:18 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I completely forgot:

Your excellent Mewtwo killing strat,fanha..Electrode,t-wave,explode,then snorlax,self destruct?

First way to counter it has been mentioned,take down the trode and lax,then bring out Mewtwo.

Another way,is:

Electrode used T-wave!mewtwo was paralyzed!
Mewtwo is fully paralyzed/Amnesia
Electrode used Explosion!
Electrode fainted!
Mewtwo is down to whatever
X sent out Snorlax!
Z switched to Gengar!
Snorlax used self destruct!
Snorlax Fainted!
It doesnt effect enemy gengar...

Yep...once you see trode t-wave you,and blow up,and see snorlax come in,it's easy to predict he has a normal move.

Even with quake,that leaves two slots left.

One of them is amnesia,rest,one of them,and or a special attack.

That makes a imperfect lax.

And you dont imagine how counterable snorlax is when gengar has Confuse ray+psychic+DT+rest.

Huge attack,crap defense,hurt from confusion=bad.

while he's stalled by the hurting,he gets tossed into oblivion,only 4 tosses are required if he hurts himself twice.And even with FULL amnesia,NO special moves besides psychic from lax can down gengar...

And gengar is HELLA popular...so dont try to bring up the argument you are thinking about.

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Givera
Farting Nudist
Member # 234

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posted 06-19-2000 06:34 PM      Profile for Givera   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Umm... okay I've been out of town for the last two weeks and I come back to find a 193 reply post about the cheapness of Mewtwo... THANX GUYS!! You expect me to read it all??
I'll assume it's been brought up that every one has there own opinion and no one can force a change of some one else's...
I think Mewtwo should be allowed in Tourney's for one MAJOR reason - Everyone has access to him... it's not like only certain people can get him...
If YOU don't want to use Mewtwo go ahead don't - A lot of people do fine against M2 teams w/out using him; learn from them how to handle M2's...
Like whoever started this threed Mewtwo is like the Queen in chess - and just like the Queen everyone has access to using him!
Well that's my opinion... now I'll continue to TRY to read through the 193 posts and discover that someone else already made the exact same argument as i did...
-Givera

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"Yea..." -Heero Yuy


From: Plano, Tx | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

Rate Member
posted 06-19-2000 09:54 PM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh, Givera, the Mewtwo = Queen thing was in the very first post starting this monster thread ^_*. I suggest if you're gonna get sucked into the trap like us, you read through the whole thing. It is in fact quite entertaining. Like someone said (StarCaliber?), "it'll make you laugh, cry, make you want to kill XXX, make you laugh, cry some more then want to kill YYY"

(XXX and YYY depends on whose side you wanna take *grin*)

And StarCaliber, thanks, I'm glad some people are enjoying the points I discuss...

Seeyas!

(Personally, we have a Poke Tour coming up this Saturday as well, I think a PokeSta one. Ya know what? I am *not* going to use Mewtwo even if he is allowed. But I will use Mew if he is allowed. I personally like Mew *_*. I'll probably use my 4 way max surfin Pikachu as well *big grin*).

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-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Fish
Farting Nudist
Member # 267

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posted 06-20-2000 08:23 PM      Profile for Fish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, this was originally posted by Fanha WAY back.
After all this pointless debate, it still holds true.

quote:
Originally posted bt Fanha:
Doesn't anyone seem to realize that ANY hard-hitting physical attacks work? Hyper Beam, Body Slam w/ STAB, Earthquake, Selfdestruct, Explosion; they all work. And
they work against most other popular Pokemon. And if you can't counter Mewtwo and still take on others, change your team strategy. Here's a couple general rules to make a team that does great and still kills Mewtwos/Mews.

1. Use Thunder Wave. A lot. Works on anything. Gives you extra hits when you need them.
2. Use a kamikaze or two. They're fun to play, and blow the Mewtwos away!
3. DO NOT focus your entire team on special attacks. Using all Slowbro, Exeggutor, Snorlax w/ Amnesia/Ice Beam, and the like is varied, but you need to go after physical damage, too. It's equally as important to diversify between types as it is to diversify between physical and special attacks; THIS IS THE BIG ONE THAT PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET.
4. Don't poison or Toxic. They just aren't worth it.
5. Play at least 1 guy with Amnesia (Snorlax, Slowbro, Mewtwo, etc.) and usually one guy with Swords Dance (usually Mew). This gives you two huge powers in different styles of damage to hit a Special or Defense weakness mattering upon the opponent.
6. Don't be a poor sport. Everyone gets swept, even by non-DTing, non-Amnesiaing
guys sometimes. I've been nearly swept by a lucky Lapras with Confuse Ray, even
with Mewtwo and Mew.
7. Be quick when dealing with Mewtwo/Mew. Go for quick, high damage attacks, and deny powerup time. With Mewtwo, go STRAIGHT for physical attacks; special attacks can become useless. Paralyzing is crucial.

If you try the above, Mewtwo, as well as any other Pokemon, shouldn't be a major
problem. I don't have trouble with them, and if I don't, and we're playing the same
game, that means you can learn to not have trouble with them. Adapt, grow,
develop; that's what it's all about!


Well, sure, it is not too detailed.
And sure, it may look stupid after all the senseless arguments, but when it comes down to it, it is all true.

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"California is the Japan of America." -Jim Webber (aka VaporeonsHaze) on how there are a high number of respected trainers residing in California


From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 06-21-2000 02:41 AM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah that quote was me Acey. I think anyone who reads your posts and is on the anti-Mewtwo side can see that pretty much everything you've said is pure gold. I would be posting right alongside you, but I'm quite lazy (and much of what you said, I'd just be repeating ).

I'll keep reading this topic, but I doubt you're gonna see more giant posts outta me. *Resumes playing Perfect Dark...*

------------------
"Yeah Ramon. That'll happen."


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dark Jaguar
Farting Nudist
Member # 187

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posted 06-21-2000 05:08 AM      Profile for Dark Jaguar   Email Dark Jaguar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, sorry if this point has already been made before, but I must say something.

Okay, now from what I see there are many strategies for defeating a Mewtwo. This might force you to use certain pokémon to win, but that is not unfair. I mean, would you say that Golem forces you to use a water type to win? (Note: I know he can be defeated other ways, I am merely using this as an example.) I hope not, so why would his high special and psychic type forcing you to pick from a certain list of strategies be unfair? My answer: it doesn't.

Okay, now for the object of having fun whether you win or loose, and I totally agree with that (notice how lots of people find ways to agree with their opponent in an argument to be the bigger person? ). I can have great fun without winning. Now, you say that having to use the same types over and over becomes boring and repetetive, well I agree. This is why I point this out, Mewtwo is NOT always gonna be on a pro-Mewtwo guy's team! I like Mewtwo, he's cool and can dish out a lot of damage, but I also know he can be defeated by good strategy. That is why I mix it up by using a variety of teams which might not include Mewtwo or Mew or Snorlax (Snorlax is my favorite so he is usually there though). All you need to do is find an opponent who doesn't use Mewtwo, they are out there.

Now, the big problem here is that SO many trainers know too little about fighting against actual trainers. They are used to the standard battles against the computer, so they assume that Mewtwo will ALWAYS be the best (or, soon it will be Lugia). If you are always fighting these guys, you need to move on to tougher opponents, ones who know what they are doing. (Notice that I didn't go and label all the bad players as kids, kids can be very smart and sometimes a lot more mature than many adults.) These guys will probably use Mewtwo, probably not. Now, remember that certain powerhouses do require strategies that limit your choices, this is bound to happen (note that there is more than just mewtwo, tobybro and a large number of snorlaxes also pose a huge threat). If you don't want to be forced to use a certain group, don't. Find someone who prefers using a non-Mewtwo team if you must.

In the end, just have fun. If you find someone else who doesn't want to use Mewtwo good for you have fun. But don't call all who do use Mewtwo (and they can have just as much fun) cheap and worthless because Mewtwo is definetly not unstopable. Well, goodbye, let's end this argument and just allow each other to use our own customizations of teams as we see fit (try using the weakest vs. a team of the weakest, it is actually quite enjoyable).

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Welcome to DJ Inc., where everything is JUST fine.


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

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posted 06-21-2000 05:10 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, here I am back with the large posts =P.

I've heard better "nigga" jokes.

*shrug* One man's bread may be another man's poison or something to that effect. *You* obviously wouldn't like the joke because it was aimed at Mewtwo-users. I actually found it disturbingly funny... (I could just imagine that Todd guy on Simpsons saying it if Bart ever thrashed him with Mewtwo)

The arguement SHOULD NOT have gotten mixed in here...our smart friend ARGO brought Slowbro in from another topic which basically said if people say a world with Mewtwo is cheap, then a world without Mewtwo is cheapened by Slowbro.

Are you sure he started it? IIRC, YOU and TeeJay were the ones who brought up the Slowbro VS Mewtwo angle.

Here's a quote:

http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum6/HTML/000135-3.html

Fanha responding to the definition of Mewtwo's cheapness: Going by that, Tobybro is cheap. He's weak to CH'ing T-bolts, as Mewtwo is weak to Danced Leech Lifes.

'Much higher' is a pretty shaky term. Tobybro is an awfully powerful Pokémon.

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with TeeJay.[/i]

Somewhat after that I posted my first "Slowbro VS Mewtwo" post, then it went further underway. And then now that you're losing this angle you're trying to back out of it...

Go ahead, I have nothing to hide.

See above.

I didn't change what you said, I just changed the wording into more literal terms (less "dramatic") to show how rediculous the actual point behind it is...

Okay, let's post the evidence.

What I said: When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor*

What Fanha says I said so he could attack it: Mewtwo changes luck

Me: Since Mewtwo is the best, he can be considered the most perfect out of all the Pokemon

What Fanha said to attack it: But he is not perfect.

Me: Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation.

Fanha (on Mewtwo to attack the above): Mewtwo is NOT good in EVERY situation.

Anyone can see here that you have completely mucked around with my wording to give it a meaning to easily counter. This is BAD debate ethics. *slaps you with glove*

By the way, you just comitted suicide again. Let us scientifically study that last statement you provided...

I didn't change what you said, I just changed the wording...

Paradox! You didn't change what I said, you just changed the wording ... it's the same damn thing! -_-;; Why would you change the wording? To give it a meaning you can attack of course.

According to his own cheap scale, Mew is also cheap, but he's denied that before.

*shrug* If he's cheap, then a whole bunch of other pokemon are cheap too. But Mewtwo is in a league of its own that its unquestionably cheap - except of course from people like you. Someone purely objective would agree it is way overpowered.

And WTF was this whole analogy about? And give me examples of your "evidence"...the only thing I'm seeing is a collective mind game here.

The analogy is that given all the observations I can rightly conclude my points. As for your "Mind Game" you keep spouting about, in the words of Princess Bride, "I don't think that word means what you think it means."

And I think I provide enough evidence.

WTF does "Mewtwo makes winning easy(er)." even have to do with forcing Pokemon on your team?

*sigh* like Mr K said, you've lost contact with the big picture. Now then ... *since* Mewtwo makes winning so easy, the only true way to combat it is with your *own* Mewtwo, that ties in to cheap as well. The easiest way to fight Mewtwo? With your own Mewtwo! BTW don't go into Mewtwo-Killer krap again ANY other Pokemon that isn't Mewtwo can be defeated by Mr M2. Know what's popular? Simply use the moveset for the job. You can't say that about any other Pokemon. Except for the possibility of Mew - but like everyone agrees it doesn't have such a cheap level of power to back it up.

Fanha on electric/grass VS Toby against Bug on Mewtwo: The damage is the same. There's my fact.

O_O. Since this isn't so obvious to you, let's look at raw numbers.

Pin Missile 20 damage for 2-5 turns
Twin Needle (only Beedrill) 25 damage X2

Coming from Jolteon (pathetic attack) or Beedrill (pathetic type and bad attack) although it does get a STAB (though 1.5X pathetic is still pathetic). Jolteon ties in speed, Beedrill is slower.

Against Mewtwo's good defence 278 and good hp 415. Super Effective? Really?

Now then on to Slowbro.

Thuderbolt 95 power. Thunder 120 power. Coming from Electric Pokemon who are ALL faster than Slowbro. 1.5X STAB. Great special (Magneton, Jolteon, Zapdos etc). Thunderbolt and Thunder are tm-able.

Razor Leaf. 55 power, nearly always CH for 110 power. Eats through amnesia. Solar Beam, 1 turn to charge, for 120 power. From Grass types with STAB and fair special.

Against TobyBro. Slowest Pokemon in the game. Against worst special out of the psychics 258. Who can get one-hit KOed by the above moves.

Conclusion: Grass/Electric against Slowbro does NOT equal Bug against Mewtwo.

You can say "he is weak to Electric, which is a popular type", but "he is fatally weak to Electric" is a very misleading and unclear way to say what you're apparently trying to.

Do you even KNOW what fatal means? It means causing death or disaster. Electric/Grass is definitely applicable for Slowbro. For Mewtwo, Bug is not.

There you go again. "Fatal" has nothing to do with weaknesses. "Commonly used" might be correct, but "fatal" is simply bad wording only aiming to be dramatic instead of being accurate.

Keep going, you're just making yourself look even sillier.

What's up with the plural? It's ONE turn.

Not assuming Thunderwave. Although that would have been a wasted turn anyways against a sub.

You and Argo both openly have skipped over points you don't want to deal with.

Oh really now? I think I've responded to every single point you tried to make. Not so with you, you going so far as to CHANGE my arguments. If I skipped something tell me now, so I can debunk that too.

And like I said I need you to show me a Mewtwo with Sub or Barrier that works.

Ahem? Grep has been continually mentioned. The only way to beat that is to PP waste. But you can PP-waste your almighty Slowbro as well. Also I could have a Sub, Thunderbolt, Amnesia, recover M2 just for taking out your Slowbro (I've seen plenty of people with these). Or replace amnesia with Double Team (for Attack/Sub/DT/Recover) and CH his slow-ass. Switch in a ground? Even though it's not applicable to a Toby, M2 contest, that means the oppenent can also switch in a water type. What happens when your ground dies? Or the other popular ice beaming Grep, which isn't effective on Toby and water/ices but on everyone else. Who says the M2 player can't also have a kik ass 5 other members of his team?

...but are both completely incorrect. They are trying to dramatize but turning your statements false.

Critical can be a synonym for fatal. I used the dictionary for fatal earlier. It seems you are the one completely incorrect.

As Sub "nullfies" kamikazes, switching to a Ground nullifies Thunderbolt. Happy?

No, because that involves switching, sub *doesn't*.

...and Slowbro operates basically the same way Mewtwo does in its "Amnesia" form.

And so does everything when it's double teamed up. And you're still missing the point as Slowbro is NOT cheap because he has weaknesses and must take a significant time to charge up and has pretty bad stats to start off from. Mewtwo has none of these disadvantages.

Huh? Example, please? I don't know what you are trying to imply.

You are assuming the Slowbro player uses strategy while the Mewtwo player can't. That is unfair conditions and I'm implying that your angle is wrong.

One more turn isn't eternity, especially if there's a switch.

What if there's a switch to an electric or razer leafer? Oops, Tobybro is dead. What if Mewtwo had thunderbolt/thunder? Oops, Tobybro is dead.

<snipped nitpicking over worst>

It's over so drop it. Oh, and stop forgetting that you need to charge up for amnesia when a strategist won't let you.

<snipped resisitances stuff>

Stop giving yourself unfair advantages again (Mewtwo's attacks will be not effective while your Slowbros will). Amnesiad Thunderbolt will do more than amnesiad Surf will on Mewtwo, and the probabilities are against you since if Toby CHs it does tiny damage, while if Mewtwo CHs, Toby dies.

If you're counting on super effective to "outclass" Slowbro, it's not happening.

Thunderbolt on Slowbro. Dead. I think it's definitely happening. By the way, if you're taking the stance that Toby is better than Mewtwo overall like with more are resistant to Mewtwo than to Toby, that is plain ridiculous. What happens if Toby comes against an electric or grass again? What exactly is your point? Ice is resisted by some things water doesn't? Big whoop.

Mewtwo is always faster, Slowbro is always slower; it's not relevent whether it's a 20 or a 2000 difference.

Actually it is because it means Mewtwo is faster than *all* Pokemon except for one, and ties with 2 others.

While Slowbro is the *slowest* tied with Snorlax IIRC. Other pokemon can get a crack at him before Slowbro can. Let's say I have a fully amnesiad Toby and I just killed something. Then the other guy suddenly brings out Venusaur. Oops, I can't kill him first because I'm too damn slow. What happens if Toby comes out against a fully-amnesiad Mewtwo?

Oops, dead agains coz he's too damn slow. You can't do the same trick with Mewtwo. Slowbro works DIFFERENT.

It can be worked around. Playing slow Pokemon is an art; some people can do it, others can't.

You can't work around the example I just gave. Switch out Slowbro you say? There goes all your powering up (and your argument about slowbro being cheap).

SD Explosion kills ANYTHING but Gengar

So there also goes your argument that Mewtwo is critically weak to physical attacks.

Um...NO...it's the shortest unit of time...and a light year is distance not time BTW

Duh! It's a figure of speech. Stop nitpicking all the time. I go to college and have done college level physics (and senior High School level) so I think I know what a light year really is. Your showing off does not impress me. GEEZ!

Anyhow, a turn is easy to buy, because even if your opponent takes ONE extra turn to switch or ONE extra turn pulling off that first DT, that's all it takes.

Not easy to buy against a good opponent. You are giving yourself unfair conditions again (the other guy is crap). One turn can mean your death against a counter (electric/grass).

But the HP difference isn't huge enough to make a HUGE impact.

It's big enough to render your "Mewtwo is much more weak to physical attacks, than Slowbro is" useless. How much points of HP would be equivalent to points of defence?

<snip accusation that I'm not using relevant data>

I already explained how they're relevant but you continue to ignore it. Your Cloyster, Rhydon argument is utter krap as well, since Cloyster has kinda weak special to go with his type disadvantages, and Rhydon ... has got his own huge plethora of weaknesses - including stats (krap special). You're right, stats aren't everything, but where have I argued this? I've also mentioned movesets and types which Mewtwo also has the best.

*repeat flag for those who listen the first time* THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT- <snip>

If you mean they are the same, that is *still* wrong. What exactly is your "working similar" definition anyway? For all I know it could be something that only exists in your mind and it's impossible for any of us to disprove it because it's your defintion and you can change it to suit what you want.

By the way I suggest looking AGAIN at the title of this thread. You are like that other thing someone mentioned in a different thread. A frog in the well. You are not looking at the big picture ...

...but Slowbro wins in raw power. He can break through even resistance quite easily.

Providing you let him power up. Providing Mewtwo doesn't capitalise on super effectives. Providing a lot of things.

1) Mewtwo can also be ruined by many of the things you talk about like CHs and such.

Mewtwo can't die from an CH less than an explosion or Self destruct from Snorlax. Try again.

2) You don't bring Slowbro against a Hazer. Not too hard considering Vaporeon is the only *common* one.

But you *can* bring Mewtwo against a haze. Try again.

3) A "good strategist" brings out Slowbro when the opponent has a Pokemon out they won't wantto retreat and thus forces Slowbro the powerup time.

Let the other guy be a good strategist too and Slowbro bites the dust.

4) Amnesia IS a factor; that's why the Special different is not *completely* relevant. Depending on CHs is like depending on one-hit KOs; it's not a huge case.

It's a factor since Slowbro is so slow. Amnesia takes time. This was argued out already. Look, I've got a TobyBro, I know how the thing works, don't assume I'm totally ignorant. There are times where I have a fully-amnesiad TobyBro ripping through the other team when suddenly I die to a CH off the first turn. CHs are *not* all that uncommon.

And your Sub arguement is moot (that IS a cool word!) until you can honestly show me that it works.

It's not my fault you refuse to open your eyes. And stop stealing my words =p

Like I said, denying Mewtwo even one attack opens up a whole 'nother realm of problems...

I find your double standard kind of funny. What attacks does TobyBro have again?

Na, Snorlax can't match Slowbro.

Snorlax with amnesia and thunderbolt will rock Toby. For a pure Toby killer replace the standard physical attack with double team. Or if things look shaky if you have self destruct, use it. I personally think Snorlax is better. He has less weaknesses than Slowbro has. (Fighting? Who uses fighting? Mr K knows about fighting ^_^;

And if there weren't such things as kamikazes or physical attacks, Mewtwo would be as cheap as you claim he is.

Mewtwo being really weak to physical attacks was already debunked. Try again. But not if you're just going to repeat another one of your favourite arguments which likewise were already debunked.

You can force the Mewtwo out.

Sorry, no unfair advantages such as skill level please. And remember, good pokemon on the M2 team as well.

There are ways, especially when you put out a Pokemon like Mew that nothing but Mewtwo can deal with.

There are more counters for Mew IMO. Snorlax is pretty good IMO (all other things being equal). Your beloved Toby even. Exeguttor, Aerodactyl ... I'm sure plenty of people have made Mew counters. He is not as hard as Mewtwo.

And you can hold back too.

How can you hold back when the Mewtwo player has great Pokemon too?

Plus, playing the Mewtwo last gives you plenty of setup time without a powerful attacker to start pummeling you. Slowbro, anyone?

Jolteon/Magneton/Zapdos/Venusaur/Victreebell/electric move user/etc anyone? What if the Mewtwo player also has Slowbro? Whoops.

Na.

<immature> Yea. </immature>

Seeyas!

PS Fish, everyone knows there are counters for Mewtwo. But does that mean he's not cheap? Read through every post if you haven't already. The definition of cheap is quite a good eye-opener...

PSS That's okay SC, I don't get tired of debating myself ^_^;;

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*** Ace ***

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"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

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posted 06-21-2000 05:21 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dark Jaguar, your points were already gone over pretty much.

In summary - being forced to use certain pokemon just to have a worthwhile chance *is* indeed unfair. Your Golem example is not applicable since MANY other pokemon can kill it such as grass types, water types, or Pokemon with grass and/or water tms, or something with hard-hitting special. Mewtwo does not have any weaknesses. (If you're going to argue physical weakness don't bother - just read back for them, I think it might be in pages 3-4).

Oh and the thing is, every non-Mewtwo strategy you can come up with to defeat Mewtwo can be nullified by a counter-strategy/moveset. You can't say that about any other Pokemon except perhaps Mew (but who is not as hugely powerful). *That* is pretty cheap.

(Find the definition of cheap on Page 4 if you're unsure what we mean by it). Now then, now that we've established Mewtwo as cheap, that makes the people who use him just so they can win "cheap trainers."

Fanha summed it up by the following words: If you want to win, use Mewtwo/Mew.

The above is a "cheap" strategy.

Seeyas!

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*** Ace ***

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"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
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posted 06-21-2000 05:38 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Me: The easiest way to fight Mewtwo? With your own Mewtwo!

I suppose I should clarify this by what I exactly meant (for the nitpickers). The easiest way to fight Mewtwo (meaning best way to win against a M2 team) is by using your *own* Mewtwo team. That makes it balanced.

Of course, Mewtwo VS Mewtwo directly is the most balanced way to fight, but it tends to get rather boring with all the PP-wasting. That's why it's more efficient to try and defeat the other guy's Mewtwo with the rest of the team specifically made to work together and pull him down so that your *own* Mewtwo can sweep the rest.

All should agree that at the highest level of play, the above takes place more often than not. Since the whole damn game revolves around M2, it should be obvious to note the cheapness of it. (unless you are purposely deluding yourself because you do not want to be considered cheap).

Seeyas!

~Ace


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*** Ace ***

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From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
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posted 06-21-2000 09:39 PM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fanha: You started to argue; I just gave a perfectly valid example.

No you didn't. Your example was that Slowbro dying to thunderbolt was on the same level as Mewtwo being MUCH more susceptible to physical attacks. I proved that wrong.

This was taken to another topic. It shouldn't be here.

You STARTED it here. So it's your fault (it wasn't Argo who started it like you accused).

You didn't. My statement holds true.

You sput that off, but anyone can see what you are really trying to prove. By the way, it's impossible for me to prove that point explicitly but I did prove a lot of other things.

If you wouldn't make such general statements I wouldn't be able too.

You are giving my statements completely different meanings. Let us now see...

When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor* = when Mewtwo is used, ALL probabilities, including freezing, CHs, etc., are in your favor = Mewtwo makes freezing and CHs more likely

Does NOT equal. Where have I mentioned that freezing is in Mewtwo's favor? By the way CHs are in Mewtwo's favor though. And if you took it in the context I gave it in the first place, the probabilities are for WINNING.

FALSE, because it's simply not true. Even Mewtwo doesn't change these things.

It's false given the meaning YOU gave it. This is what I meant by changing my words so you can can attack it. My God, do you use a microscope for your nitpicking ability?

Since Mewtwo is the best, he can be considered the most perfect out of all the Pokemon = on a "perfection scale", Mewtwo would be highest = there is such thing as a "perfection scale"

Now this is correct given the definition I gave for perfection. That was WINNING in Pokemon. Interesting how you didn't mention it.

By the way this isn't what you argued before, you said that I was claiming Mewtwo was perfect. A flat out lie, and you even changed your own words this time.

Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation. = Mewtwo can do very well in every situation = in ANY possible scenario, Mewtwo can do very well

This is correct. (by the way, this ISN'T what you said earlier as well. More lying.)

Haven't I argued this before? You're ignoring stuff you've already been disproved on. For EVERY strategy/moveset you can give a non-Mewtwo Pokemon, there is a strategy/moveset, Mewtwo will beat.

FALSE, I have given counter-cases before.

You said there was a billion ways to beat Mewtwo. And I responded with, give me your billion ways and I will give you a billion ways to destroy them. Come on, I'm still waiting.

I think I didn't word that correctly.

Excuses, excuses...

What I mean was I didn't change the POINT behind the statements;

Oh yes you did.

I simply showed their implications. See above. I just changed the wording to make the outrageous hidden claims apparent; you made those statements, not me.

You changed the point AND the implications. And now you're trying to change waht you originally said 2 out of 3 times. Not good debate ethics I'm afraid.

An algorithim is objective in its purest form.

Look at the thread Mr K started, "Mathematics of Cheap".

The facts and numbers don't lie.

It shows that either that's not Mr. K's "cheapness" algorithim, or he's not objective, and he judges Mewtwo for social reasons, too, which an algorithim can't figure.

Now an accusation on Mr K? Like I said, facts and numbers don't lie. He may not consider Mew to be cheap and he is perfectly in the right to do so. Mew's stats/type and possible movesets are overshadowed by the cheapness that is M2. Swords Dance you say? Amnesia.

And an objective person would probably think Slowbro and Mew were overpowered, though their outward looks might show otherwise.

An objective person would ONLY look at the numbers and facts. Looking at the numbers nad facts, it is easy to conclude.

Pokemon doesn't work that way. You only have ONE moveset you can use. And you have to face SIX other Pokemon. He can't just pick "the moveset for the job" for each one. That's why he's not cheap.

YOU are picking the moveset for the job so why can't I? Unfair conditions. Sure, you can have your amnesia, surf and I can have something dumb like, submission, mega punch, mega kick and mist. Yeah ... right.

And we are discussing "cheapness" here. That means overall, is Mewtwo a cheap Pokemon? The fact he is the best by a high margin (raw numbers, facts) and that he can beat any other Pokemon in the game, means he is the easiest to win with means he is cheap. There ya go.

But then it becomes fair, so the whole cheap concept goes out the door...

This was argued out already. I'm not going to repeat a million things just so you can ignore them. Do me a favour and go back to pages 2-3-4 and re-read the counters so I won't have to repeat them yet again.

My point was it still does 2x damage. You stretched it way too far.

But 2X WHAT damage? This is a pathetic argument to take and is not worth you.

Okay, then if that's your definition, I can clearly state Mewtwo is FATALLY weak to physical attacks.

It's the dictionary's definition not mine. Oh and if you consider Mewtwo fatally weak to physical attacks then you consider EVERY non-rock-ghost type fatally weak to physical attacks. In this case, who cares if he is?

Did I see "Tobybro" in my arguement?

Okay, now I know you're not using Toby. Good.

Nope. I usually don't play it with T-wave. Usually Surf, Amnesia, Rest, (DT/Psychic/Sub).

Okay if you don't play T-wave, then you come across a whole new plethora of weakness. You will always go last, you don't get the 25% fully paralyzed, you have to charge up more (DT) etc. Since you will always go last, that makes that one extra turn to amnesia up than Mewtwo even harder to get.

You even stated you were skipping stuff,

If I've skipped stuff, it's because it's already been argued. If I didn't please enlighten me.

as did Argo. And I'm not taking the time to see WHAT you skipped...I'm TRYING to leave, but...

I'm sorry but if you're going to make accusations you have to provide proof. Otherwise I'm going to have to consider you lying.

More Mewtwo/Slowbro similarities...

Similar in this instance. Your point? They are overall not at all similar in regards to cheapness. (don't argue this unless you are willing to go back and read over the counters properly).

and yes of course ANY Pokemon with one attack is blatently asking to get stalled... <snip stuff> Mewtwo can't do NEARLY as much damage on Mews and the popular like because STAB with Psychic is cancelled by resistance; STAB with Surf remains and thus Slowbro does BETTER than Mewtwo by quite a bit against Mew and other Psychics.

Only on those types. What about the stuff water is resisted on? Starmie with Thunderbolt, Light Screen, Minimise, Recover renders your argument null.

Your point is that Slowbro's STAB is better against psychics I can see that though. But as always a SE is always better than an STAB.

Hehe...*cough*Rhydon*cough*

Hehe, you didn't read through the rest of my post did you?

Oh sure, not only does he get stalled but he stalls himself but wasting 6 turns letting his opponent power up so he can stall! That's downright rediculous.

This was against Slowbro, yes? Well the example Mewtwo is obviously a staller yes? But stalling in his favor because one CH and Slowbro is dead.

If it's 3-on-3, and Mewtwo is allowed, my lineup is Mewtwo w/ T-bolt, Slowbro, Rhydon.

So you sell out and use Mewtwo yourself in this argument. I think you just comitted suicide again.

Your Water won't stand a chance against MY Mewtwo.

I'm glad you realise that waters don't stand a chance against Mewtwo.

And when Mewtwo is allowed, I take him for situations like that.

Yes, you have to use Mewtwo to guarantee your win don't you?

Who says the Slowbro player can't have a Mewtwo if you do AS WELL as four other kick-ass guys?

The whole argument was about how Mewtwo is so superior to other Pokemon, you had to have one yourself. Do you realise how silly your argument looks when you do break down and use him?

Na, because the kamikaze can still damage you; the Electric can't,

Sorry, but switching implies you need a team of more than one poke to defeat the Mewtwo. And the kamikaze kills himself - you risk a lot. What if Mewtwo switches a Rhydon on your kamikaze? I can use your own logic against you.

or if they have non-Elec attacks, Slowbro's not taking it. And who said Slowbro can't have Sub?

No one did. But you honestly think sub is gonna help you against his weaknesses? Like I said before, "Slowbro made a sub? Well there's more thunderbolts where that one came from!"

1. Slowbro has higher defense, plus he doesn't CH while Amnesiaed NEARLY as often as Mewtwo.
2. Mewtwo's chargeup time is ONE turn less than Slowbro's.

Not arguing this as the above has been proved wrong ALREADY. Stop using outdated points. The only thing new is the CH thing. That's good. But it's bad if Mewtwo has thunderbolt. CH Thunderbolt from Mewtwo WILL one-hit KO a Slowbro (max stats for both). I've come across plenty of real life stituations to know it's true.

What do you mean by "using strategy"? It's quite confusing without examples to show what you're trying to show.

Okay just for you, you are assuming the Slowbro is "smart" while the Mewtwo is "dumb." There ya go.

Let's not do all these STUPID what-if fill in the blanks...it's been done too many times already...

It's stupid because you can't counter them. What does happen when you have a fully-amnesiad Slowbro and suddenly a Razer Leafer pops out? (who is definitely faster than Slowbro). Switch? Oops, I guess Slowbro is nowhere near as cheap as Mewtwo.

Now you're killing your own "Mewtwo is cheap" arguement with my own arguements against it (I think youu see how);

How so? Mewtwo is not as fragile as Slowbro, he doesn't need to fear much while powering up, and he only needs 2 turns, while amnesiaing up one turn already nets him 812 special, more than enough to kill a weak-special phyisical attacker.

But this has been smentioned already in depth. Go re-read pages 2-3-4 and prove yourself wrong with those.

I'll gladly make the tradeoff because that's an assumed fact, and if it isn't true, the whole Slowbro debate is over, because nothing is cheap!

I'm sorry.

Now you're comparing our "prince of cheap" to your "king of cheap"; of course Slowbro can't beat him most of the time.

Not prince of cheap, make that "dunce of cheap" compared to Mewtwo. Less enough cheapness that he is not in fact cheap. By the way, I thought you were arguing that Slowbro is as cheap as Mewtwo (that's what your similar means right?).

Thanks for backing out and admitting yourself wrong.

What's with this? You're bringing back this "Slowbro is better than Mewtwo" thing which I clearly said was a lie and I never said it,

If you read carefully, I said that it seemed that's what you were implying .. *shrug*

and you have yet to "quote me". And you were talking like your Ice has some "super effective" bonus that is better than Slowbro's STAB with Ice Beam.

No I wasn't. And Slowbro doesn't have STAB with Ice Beam in the first place. Like I said I have honestly no clue what the heck your point here is. Care to enlighten me?

Let's rephrase that: In ANY GIVEN SITUATION, Slowbro is *almost* always slower, and Mewtwo is *almost* always faster. You misinterpretted me.

What you were arguing was that those hundreds of extra speed points that Mewtwo has over Slowbro doesn't matter. *shrug* I simply argued that they do matter.

This really doesn't mean anything, because I've admitted Mewtwo is overall better than Slowbro and that's a HORRIBLY misbalanced example you're giving.

Heh! Sorry, but I was contrasting that even fully-powered up Slowbro still has much to fear.

What about vice-versa? The Mewtwo wouldn't fare too well with Amnesiaing itself.

Sure Mewtwo would. Mewtwo is faster so it gets to amnesia up to 812. An amnesiad surf wouldn't kill him then. Then Mewtwo amnesias again, recovers and if he has thunderbolt, starts flinging them like crazy.

And we never even said they were EQUAL...

Okay, what exactly does your "similar" mean then?

Same with Mewtwo; once again, you're killing your own arguement.

Not really. Where have I said that Mewtwo ever really needed to switch when it was fully pumped up? BTW don't take the thunderbolt Mewtwo example, it has no relevance with this point. That was just an extreme TobyBro killer.

Huh? Um...no...
He is weak to even the *normally* non-fatal attacks...

Who is weak? Mewtwo? This was argued out already. See page 4 I think. Mewtwo is NOT weak to physical attacks (comparably if you just want to nitpick). If he is, then Slowbro and every non-rock/ghost type is too.

And another arguement goes uncountered...you really didn't say anything of relevence.

What argument? You were trying to be smart and telling me with much shrugness that a light year is distance. I said it was a figure of speech. (one turn is a light year in the game or something to that effect) I think I countered your point about that. Lets' see...

Anyhow, a turn is easy to buy, because even if your opponent takes ONE extra turn to switch or ONE extra turn pulling off that first DT, that's all it takes.

Not easy to buy against a good opponent. You are giving yourself unfair conditions again (the other guy is crap). One turn can mean your death against a counter (electric/grass).

Yeah, I countered it.

Not really. There are a million ways to get a "free turn", many natural:

But do they count in your Slowbro examples? Let's see.

- A miss

Thunderbolt/Razor Leaf is 99.6% accurate. Double Team you say? That takes even more turns to power up.

- Full paralysis

You said you weren't using Toby.

- Hitting self with confusion

I didn't know SlowBro had Confuse Ray/Supersonic. Wait, it does have confusion. Do you have confusion on your Slowbro?

- Extra power-up turn

I don't get what you mean by this.

- Opponent hits wrong button

.... I just cracked up laughing out loud then ^_^;;

- Any number of common occurences

Like what? Suddenly the other player falls over dead of heart attack?

Opponent: Hahaha, now your Slowbro dies to razor leaf!

You: Damnit! Slowbro was my last Pokemon!

Opponent: Now then ... ARGH UK, no! (clutches chest), Call the ambulance ... NO! Uk. (falls over dead).

You: (thoughtful pause) Yay, I win!

And these happen against GOOD players too...

Sure things can happen just out of random chance. But you haven't shown me that any of these random chances could realistically happen in this instance.

Figure it out; I don't think your "cancelling out" is true.

Hmmm ... at max stats, Toby has 40 points more of defence. M2 has 22 points more of hp. If we say at the LEAST with physical attacks, points of hp would be equivalent to 2 points of defence, Mewtwo wins out.

LOL! Most of your arguements have been listing stats and averages and stuff! And Slowbro doesn't need a huge moveset; he's got all he needs in one.

Sounds like someone's forgetting something. Let me quote myself:

Numbers aren't everything, especially with Speed and unused stats.

But you're right, numbers aren't everything, it's also the type and learnable moves.

Slowbro Mewtwo
Water/Psychic Psychic

No contest, Mewtwo is the winner. No weaknesses, unlike Slowbro.

Moves? I think you know Mewtwo beats out Slowbro at that too. The most glaring one being that Slowbro can't learn Thunderbolt.

Oh yeah, that one moveset your hyping up still won't help you out against his weaknesses.

Showing reasonable grounds that Slowbro would be considered cheap by the same algorithim that shows Mewtwo cheap.

All right. Now what was similar about Water/Psychic against Psychic again? Stats? Possible Movesets?

Actually, in a perfect world, Mewtwo WOULD work like Slowbro. That is, he is kick ass, but he has weaknesses that would kill him easily. Kinda like Electric and Ground (and Electric/Grass against Water =P). Hmmmm ... Nintendo must have been listening to the complaints otherwise why did Dark type get put in, in G/S?

Providing we already know Mewtwo is cheap and better than Slowbro in this world we're working with. That's the "assumed facts" here. Dispute those and the whole arguement is gone, and you're back to your "is Mewtwo cheap" arguement.

But I'm not disputing those. Mewtwo *is* cheap (with the defintion in the dictionary and taken by most people) and further in the argument it was established Mewtwo is better than SlowBro. That's what I've been arguing all this time. Do you agree? If so, the argument is over. Those "providing" statements were about Slowbro by the way. He simply has far and away more "providing statements" than Mewtwo does. Anything that can take Mewtwo down can take down Slowbro as well. But then, Slowbro gets added ways to take him down on top of those even further.

Even a "strategist" usually won't retreat a DTed Pokemon or something like that, especially if they don't have a recovery attack.

He will if he knows he has a Thunderbolter/Razer Leafer on the bench that can take it down more reliably. Just the same that I WILL switch a fully Double Teamed Jolteon if the other guy brings out a Rhydon or something similar. Even if I had Double Kick.

It's not my fault I'm never been shown an effective Sub Mewtwo. And I don't think one exists, short of a focused anti, which is just sad for a Mewtwo.

*Shrug* What is your criteria for "effective"?

One. But it does more damage than Mewtwo's best, and Mews, Mewtwos, and more populars don't resist it...

No one is disputing that it can hit hard. Whta is disputed is if he gets a chance to fully power up, and the fact remains that even fully pumped up, he still gets killed.

Oh, and Mewtwo doesn't need resistance when he has Amnesia as well (+ higher HP).

especially the high-special threats...short of another Slowbro, which proves cheapness acording to your Mewtwo examples.

You don't need resistance when you can kill it in one hit now do you? And where has it been said that the only thing that can take out Slowbro is another one? If that were true then yeah it would be cheap. But that's not the case is it?

Never seen a working one.

I don't get you. Are you so arrogant to assume that you've seen *everything* Pokemon has to offer?

Ice Beam is the only popular one I've seen. The Pokemon you're saying are so focused that I've never heard of such things used. Mewtwo's counters are very common and used frequently.

Oh really now, you've never heard of a Snorlax with Thunderbolt? Well anyways, you said Slowbro was better than Snorlax and could beat it or something to that effect. I simply said that Snorlax with Amnesia thunderbolt will rock Toby ... how is that wrong?

Not really.

Yes really. Try page 4 or so.

Actually, if you're good, you can *force* (do I need to put emphasis?) Mewtwo out; that means making Mewtwo the logical choice...like bait, except not taking it can mean worse punishment and being forced to anyhow. It's called FORCE because it's a situation you create where Mewtwo would be their only good choice. A situation where a strategist WILL send out Mewtwo.

Okay, what exactly is this situation that Mewtwo would be their ONLY choice to send out? Short of another Mewtwo and given the same resources the other player has, I don't see how so. Give me examples please. Mew you say? M2 player sends out Snorlax or their own Mew. etc.

Sure, but MOST people send out Mewtwo in response to a Mew.

Most people are actually quite crap. So?


Snorlax is better against Mewtwo himself...and he doesn't need to be as good as Mewtwo, as long as it's something Mewtwo will want to take.

Depends on the movesets.

For example, feign a Swift-Dancer, then Explode on the Mewtwo when they switch to him (odds are they will, or lose many more Pokemon, which is just as good).

All well and good, but you are depending on the skill (or lack of) of the other player here. Simply send out Exeguttor and sleep it or any of the other varied and effective counters. If they are holding Mewtwo back on purpose they are not going to be easily baited.

Just like in Chess, you can force a bad outcome in Pokemon but playing right.

And just like in Chess it ultimately depends on just how skillfull the 2 players are.

That's plain BS...

Okay, what's the weaknesses? If you're going to say defence or bug yet again, don't bother.

Thus you have the game of Pokemon...ANYTHING can be countered...Mewtwo is not above that...

Yes, if they have Mewtwo, use Mewtwo yourself. *Bleh*. I think this has been gone over before too.

Not really.

Yes, really. You said yourself that you do not want to challenge yourself and will continue to use Mewtwo/Mew. Unfortunately, I am going to have to call you cheap. Call a spade a spade ya know.

And if you don't, you don't play fair with yourself, you don't give your best,

When was this part of the argument? Read that header again. "Mewtwo's Cheapness."

and you shouldn't whine when you get beat over Mewtwo being cheap! And that's all it is: whining. Labeling something as cheap only shows that you haven't learned to overcome it and have to rationalize, thus you say it's "cheap" to make yourself feel better by making it "not your fault" you lost.

Actually, no one has been whining, certainly not me. I'm simply arguing a spade as a spade. What you are doing is arguing the spade as a shovel. And you do not want to be called cheap because it has negative connotations. That's the main reason why you argue.

And I KNOW when I have Mewtwo and I beat someone who doesn't have a Mewtwo, it wasn't a real victory. I feel shallow and dissatisfied. On the other hand if I purposely go against someone without a Mewtwo and they have one, if I lose I will not complain because I know I have challenged myself to ultimately see if I am indeed a better player than the other. On the other hand if you have a Mewtwo and the other player doesn't and they win, that is the ULTIMATE embarrassment in my eyes.

No, usually, in my game, it's:

- Starter Pokemon battle and die
- Somebody brings out something Mewtwo would do good against, and the opponent brings out Mewtwo
- Anti-Mewtwos deal with Mewtwo in a few turns
- Other player sends out Mewtwo
- Opponent brings out their anti-Mewtwos and quickly kills the other Mewtwo
- The rest of the Pokemon battle

Like I said, Mewtwo usually only sees a couple turns of action during most of my matches, especially my own (Kamiewtwo)...hehe. Of course it can't be shown, but 80-90% of the battle is in the first and last steps.

That's good. But do you really think that your battles are representatives of everyone else's?

Well ... no more to reply to ...

Seeyas!

~Ace

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-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
maagisk
Farting Nudist
Member # 536

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posted 06-25-2000 07:11 PM      Profile for maagisk   Author's Homepage   Email maagisk   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK! now dont get me wrong but i didnt read the whole thing read very well, you can say that i skimmed it. but i dont see how fanha can be a cheap trainer. i mean, if you can call hom cheap for teaching his pkmn thunderwave or something that anoyes trainers isent really cheap, its smart. i read some war story about fanah almost beating off a team of all m2's, it was kinda a cool story but he didnt do good because his team was cheap but because he played the battle the smart way, i say you look at the battle and see what moves he taught his pkmn. now any trainer could have used the same pkmn as he did, but not everyone is smart enough to use the same strategy as he used. now im not sure if im wording this right, but the pkmn arent cheap, but the reason he's so successfull, is that he used a good stradegy, not that his pkmn or attacks are cheap.

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From: Dramen, Norway | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
kadabra 2.0
Farting Nudist
Member # 484

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posted 06-25-2000 07:31 PM      Profile for kadabra 2.0   Email kadabra 2.0   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...Mewtwo used with strategy beats X pokemon used with strategy. It tends to also beat X and Y pokemon both used with strategy.

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- Kadabra 2.0 the White


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
maagisk
Farting Nudist
Member # 536

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posted 06-26-2000 11:36 AM      Profile for maagisk   Author's Homepage   Email maagisk   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, i guess i didnt read it clearly enough. but thats not the point, the point is u didnt win cause you were cheap, but because you were stategic(i think thats how you spell it)

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From: Dramen, Norway | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

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posted 06-26-2000 05:38 PM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, Biffster and I tried something similar to Fanha's Mewtwo Army Story. We had Scyther7164 Shark up 6 Max Stats L100 Mewtwos, and we agreed to fight him with our teams (each pick 3, just like Fanha and Sama did). I grabbed my Electrode, Exeggutor (complete antiMewtwo moveset. Sleep Powder, DT, Leech Seed, Double Edge), and Mew (like I said, I have no problem with Mew). Biffster took his Jolteon, Snorlax, and Gengar (trickery Pokemon with Confuse Ray, Toxic, DT, Rest). In review...

StarCaliber
-Electrode
-Exeggutor
-Mew
Biffster
-Jolteon
-Snorlax
-Gengar

versus...

Scyther7164
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)

Now, you must remember who was controlling these Mewtwos. Scyther had given all of them the moveset T-bolt, Ice Beam, Amnesia, Recover. However, in a last second decision, the moron decided he wanted "variety." So he took 3 of them and replaced Ice Beam and T-Bolt with Flamethrower and (oh, this is rich) DIG. Of course, Stadium branded him as a cheater, but Biffster and I agreed to play him anyway.

If it weren't for Scyther's crap-happy movesets, he woulda pulled it off easily, but Biffster and I only let him get one Mewtwo fully powered up, and there was an Electrode with that Mewtwo's name on it. However, he did let Mew get powered up near the end, and he lost by 1 Pokemon.

I'm not saying that Mewtwo is unbeatable, but that was one of the most boring matches I have ever played.

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"Sometimes I pour Pepsi down the air vents."


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 06-26-2000 09:13 PM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, we didn't even know that he was using a Mewtwo with Flamethrower until he battle was starting, so we didn't think too much of it. But Fanha, those Mewtwos were awful, and I feel that if anyone other than Scyther7164 was controlling those Mewtwos, they would have beaten the living snot out of Biffster and me. And I'm not kidding. The custom made Mewtwos that you mentioned probably could've beaten us even if Scyther was using them. Remember, you have to take into account the skills of the opposing trainer as well as the number of Mewtwos used. Heck, I bet that even the Stadium AI could've beaten us with those Mewtwos.

Yeah, I realize yours were already there. That's cool, cuz remember, any Mewtwo is a dangerous one. So your feat was quite good. BTW, I think I'm gonna have Scyther shark those movesets you listed on to his Mewtwos now. That should make for an interesting battle...

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"Sometimes I pour Pepsi down the air vents."


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
MasterMew2
unregistered


posted 07-06-2000 10:39 AM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ouch... 5 whole pages

I am a Mewtwo user,and in my opinion, the Mewto haters are the cheap, skill-less ones.

How? For one, they try to get rid of Mewtwo by banning him, not by using their, "AMAZING SKILLS". If they realy where that good, they would have had a solution done by now (Like me (Yes, I have figured a Combo for taking Mewtwo down)).

Second, they act like Mewtwo was included in only a few random game packs. If this where true, I would be on their side.

They say he can be gained, and used, with little skill.

Dumb*ss threw Master Ball
Dumb*ss caught Mewtwo

Wrong again. If you want a Mewtwo, Dumb*ss would have to:

Beat all 8 Gym Leaders
Get the Master Ball
And not use it for other Pokemon
Beat the Elite 4
Get throught the Unknown Dungeon
And a whole bunch of training.

Much more then you think.

P.S. Mewtwo supporters, if you want that Mewtwo killing Stradegy, E-Mail me at MasterMew2@hotmail.com

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MasterMew2


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kadabra 2.0
Farting Nudist
Member # 484

Member Rated:
posted 07-06-2000 11:37 AM      Profile for kadabra 2.0   Email kadabra 2.0   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Beating the game isn't exactly an awe-inspiring feat. And pretty much for any combo one has to beat Mewtwo, Mewtwo has some way to block it....

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- Kadabra 2.0 the White


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
VaporeonsHaze
Farting Nudist
Member # 252

Member Rated:
posted 07-06-2000 03:35 PM      Profile for VaporeonsHaze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
::News Flash::
"MasterMew2, newbie with 8 posts finds a Mewtwo beating strategy that no one else has though of and will defeat Mewtwo everytime no questions asked"
Hahahaha, shut up MM2.

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"You're a FAKE!" Counterfit: Limp Bizkit


From: MI | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
MasterMew2
unregistered


posted 07-07-2000 11:09 AM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NewsFlash!!

The Electrode/Dragonite/Thunder Wave/Wrap Combo works!!! And thats all that matters

Can't say the same about TobyBro:
"Mewtwo used ThunderBolt"
"TobyBro fainted"

In other news, the Samonella found in the shrimp sause was caused by the Brainless flamer, Psycho Monkey/TIPPWOT. He had this to say:

"I hate Mewtwo cus...UH...he beat my Caterpie, and Caterpie was supposed to win, cus its a Bug. I wanna win... WHAAAA!!!!"

In other News, 9 children go deaf, from hearing Psycho Monkey/TIPPWOT cry.

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MasterMew2


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psycho monkey
unregistered


posted 07-07-2000 12:01 PM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MasterMew2:
NewsFlash!!

The Electrode/Dragonite/Thunder Wave/Wrap Combo works!!! And thats all that matters



NEWS FLASH!!! NO IT DOESNT!!!! you are an idiot if you think that works, you arent the only person that has thought of that! ugh...

------------------
And then it came to me, I can dip my butt in shrimp sauce and slam it on a canvas!

PBS:Sirocco, challenge me sometime, AIM: Psychodic monkey


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Imakuni?
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 393

Rate Member
posted 07-07-2000 12:40 PM      Profile for Imakuni?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wasn't going to post in this topic, but what the hell. All I'm going to say is that this debate over Mewtwo is STUPID. You don't like him, don't use him. You don't want to battle him, tell your opponent before the fight begins. You want to beat him, invent movesets that work. The point is, Mewtwo was created to be used as a Pokémon, and that's how he should be used. If there was no Mewtwo, you would just find the Pokémon with the next highest stats and call it cheap. You say that Mewtwo's low defense can be countered with Barrier or Reflect, but how many people do you see that use a Mewtwo like that? Okay, now that my rant is over, you can go back to your hourly Mewtwo bashing.

------------------
Creator of the following Pokémon:

Rapidash(Zeus) - Toxic, Fire Spin, Fire Blast, Agility
Exeggutor(Caeser) - Toxic, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Double Team
Porygon(Polly) - Thunder Wave, Sharpen, Tri Attack, Recover
Mewtwo(Oddjob) - Thunder Wave, Seismic Toss, Hyper Beam, Rest

"Who is cuter, Pikachu or me?" - Imakuni?


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Charmeleon411
Farting Nudist
Member # 99

Member Rated:
posted 07-07-2000 12:50 PM      Profile for Charmeleon411     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually...I doubt mm2 knows what toby's moveset even is. If t-wave works for his "godly" unthought of combo why won't it work for toby? Also dragonite may last a whole 2 seconds before mewtwo blizzards him w/out dragonite getting a blizzard to the face. Bah, this is the last time I post on this thread, the debate ended....a LONG time ago.

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"I gave you all a plate of corn muffins to rate my team..."
-Charmeleon411-


From: >_< | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
VaporeonsHaze
Farting Nudist
Member # 252

Member Rated:
posted 07-07-2000 01:39 PM      Profile for VaporeonsHaze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok MM2, t-wave, sure it makes mewtwo slower, but most of the new Mewtwo's have rest, that gets rid of it, or they put up a substitute. Then wrap has an attack power of like 5 and it is only about 75% accurate. That means it will miss and Mewtwo gets to attack. The only Mewtwo that you might be able to beat is your little 6 year old sisters. Why am I still posting this $hit.

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"You're a FAKE!" Counterfit: Limp Bizkit

[This message has been edited by VaporeonsHaze (edited 07-07-2000).]


From: MI | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
MasterMew2
unregistered


posted 07-08-2000 10:47 AM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Charmeleon411:
Actually...I doubt mm2 knows what toby's moveset even is. If t-wave works for his "godly" unthought of combo why won't it work for toby? Also dragonite may last a whole 2 seconds before mewtwo blizzards him w/out dragonite getting a blizzard to the face.

1) It does not work for Toby, because Toby is a slow as ****. That, and my Mewtwo knows Thunderbolt.

2) Mewtwo will not use a Blizzard, because Wrap is a hold move, and will prevent Movement.

------------------
MasterMew2


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psycho monkey
unregistered


posted 07-08-2000 10:54 AM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
can you say "swich"? I didnt think so, and you are a HUMONGUS idiot if you dont think a Paralyzed M2 is slower than bro

I feel sorry for M2 likers, you got this idiot on your side...

------------------
And then it came to me, I can dip my butt in shrimp sauce and slam it on a canvas!

PBS:Sirocco, challenge me sometime, AIM: Psychodic monkey

[This message has been edited by psycho monkey (edited 07-08-2000).]


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MasterMew2
unregistered


posted 07-08-2000 11:09 AM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by psycho monkey:
I didnt think so, and you are a HUMONGUS idion if you dont think a Paralyzed M2 is slower than bro

I feel sorry for M2 likers, you got this idiot on your side...


I did not say a Payalized Mewtwo, I ment a not Paralyzed Mewtwo. And whats an IDION?

Also, this 'Idion' is now a member of Mensa!

MM2 starts dancing.

------------------
MasterMew2


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White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
Member # 42

Member Rated:
posted 07-11-2000 04:44 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Before this thread, no other discussion in this forum's history had reached 100 posts. Now we're over 200. Should I feel proud or ashamed?

(Incidentally, I haven't read anything here after page 3...)


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
McPuff
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 679

Rate Member
posted 07-14-2000 08:37 PM      Profile for McPuff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
holy crap...this post took me a half-hour just to look at and read a post or two. Not that I'm criticizing anyone. just keep posting and when (if ever) it finally ends, I'll do what someone said to do a long time ago. I'll print all of it out pop a cover on it and sell it as a book.

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you've heard the last of us...


From: boonies, NC | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
MasterMew2
unregistered


posted 07-19-2000 12:07 PM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Everything has a purpose, no matter what it is...
Nintendo put Mewtwo in the game for a purpose.
What is that purpose?

As a reward for beating the game.
As a strong Pokemon to use.
As something to wrap a strategy for.

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MasterMew2


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MasterMew2
unregistered


posted 07-29-2000 08:13 PM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
M24EVER!

Look, I'm never going to give up, so I'll just say this:

(Most Canadians will remember this)

No, I'm not Cheap, or a Newbie.
I don't use second rate Pokemon.
I believe in fairness, and leaving things the way they are.
I have never used a Toby, but I'm sure he's a nice Pokemon.
I call it it chosing wisly.
And that Mewywo is a proud and Noble Pokemon
AND its Pronoced Mewtwo, Not MUTU.
I'm MasterMew2, and I am A Mewtwo User!!

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MasterMew2


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DizzyBum
Farting Nudist
Member # 435

Member Rated:
posted 07-30-2000 11:21 AM      Profile for DizzyBum   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You also like using teams of 6 Mewtwos in the PBS, which I would hardly call "fair".

------------------
AIM: DizzyBum77

Dumb newbie quote:
"Put Mega Drain over Razor Leaf."


From: Monroe, CT, USA | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7

Member Rated:
posted 07-30-2000 01:24 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, all I have to say is that Mr K hit the nail on the head with his comment about M2 taking out all variety. And I quote:

"If you think variety is 'sad', then you can kiss my shiny metal ass."

hehe

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"It will make you laugh, cry, want to kill Fanha, laugh again, cry some more, want to kill TeeJay, etc."
-StarCaliber, on Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 07-30-2000 04:25 PM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, it's actually "bite" the shiny metal ass, but same thing.

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"I could use pants."
-Slowking


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dead Guy46
Farting Nudist
Member # 735

Rate Member
posted 07-31-2000 07:43 PM      Profile for Dead Guy46   Email Dead Guy46   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MM2 is a small, weak nerder outcast.

It's very easy to hurt him. Now for some Dirt:
-He cant beat ANYTHING without Cheating.
-Despite his nerdishness, I get better grades
-Any game he can't cheat on, he doe's not play.

Also, one time when we where Playing Dragon Warrior Monsters together, he popped this out:
MM2:"If you think Mewtwo is Cheap, why do you use Dark Dreim, when it's DWM's version of Mewtwo?"
DG64:"Do you know what I had to go through to Get the Perfect Dark Dreim?"
It stoped there, but you have to go through ALOT to get him, as in, Breeding everyone in the Boss Family (15 monsters) and some others (Like Divington, Watabou, Servent...)

Ouch!

------------------
Dead Guy46
Dead Men do tell Tails.


From: HamsterLand | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cesar
Farting Nudist
Member # 529

Member Rated:
posted 08-01-2000 07:39 PM      Profile for Cesar   Email Cesar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This thread alone has 257 (including mine) posts! But it only makes up 4.7% (257/5500x100=4.6727273) of the total posts in this forum! Also since their is only 999 posts in the two pages of this forum, this topic has 25.7% of those 999 posts! Great J D you guys

Maybe we should deticate a forum to Mewtwo, it'll be callled "Mewtwo's shit-o-rama"
------------------
"Today Chicago, tomorrow Saturday"-Kelly Bundy
cesar@infinity.net

[This message has been edited by Cesar (edited 08-01-2000).]


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dragonite21
Farting Nudist
Member # 475

posted 08-16-2000 05:51 PM      Profile for Dragonite21     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Charmeleon411:
Actually...I doubt mm2 knows what toby's moveset even is. If t-wave works for his "godly" unthought of combo why won't it work for toby? Also dragonite may last a whole 2 seconds before mewtwo blizzards him w/out dragonite getting a blizzard to the face. Bah, this is the last time I post on this thread, the debate ended....a LONG time ago.

Actually, I have been using my double-edge/blizzard/wrap/thunder wave dragonite for ages now. The current number of mewtwos splatted is a lot. I think toby is more risky than dragonite, a critical hit with thunderbolt and it's all over.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged


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