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Author Topic: Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
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posted 06-13-2000 11:06 AM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Acey:
SpaceDog. Was he the one that suggested blasting people off to gay island? I thought it was kinda funny ^_^;;. One of the most entertaining posts in a long time I think, for some weird reason.

Nah, it was Sneakerton. I chuckled at it myself, but it was uncalled for.

From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Fish
Farting Nudist
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posted 06-13-2000 11:42 AM      Profile for Fish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shut up, Brian, I am on to you...
O.o

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"California is the Japan of America." -Jim Webber (aka VaporeonsHaze) on how there are a high number of respected trainers residing in California


From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

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posted 06-13-2000 12:10 PM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Huh? Fish, have you been getting drunk and then posting on Azure again?
From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Charmeleon411
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posted 06-13-2000 12:26 PM      Profile for Charmeleon411     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Errm, who's the "Brian" you refer to? I hope it's not me (that is my real name), if so, you're some scary drunk stalker...

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"I gave you all a plate of corn muffins to rate my team..."
-Charmeleon411-


From: >_< | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
SpaceDog
I AM A DUMB PERSON GNUUUUUUHHHH
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posted 06-13-2000 01:39 PM      Profile for SpaceDog     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow Acey, I wish I would have thought of that argument before typing page-long rebuttals. That would have saved me a LOT of time. ^_^ I guess we all got so distracted in replying to one another that we forgot the real argument. And since "cheap" is an opinion, we probably just won't come up with a compromise. Which is pretty much why I stopped debating in this topic.

And all you tourney guys: If this tournament is to show who has the most SKILL, then why use the pokemon that requires the least skill of all? I'm not saying you need to use total crap, but still...Mewtwo requires little skill to be effective. I'd rather see you beat me with something I wouldn't expect. If you can sweep me with a Beedrill, then I'll never doubt your skills again. (I've done that before, btw. There's no better feeling in the world than winning with crappy pokemon. ^_^)

Oh, one more thing I hate about Mewtwo is that he limits the game somewhat. If Mewtwo is allowed in the tourneys, then everyone will have just about the same team: A Mewtwo, a Mew, a Snorlax, a Starmie/Slowbro, an Exeggutor, and a Ground type/Electric type/Chansey. And some pokemon that are actually pretty good will get totally neglected, thanks to Mewtwo usage. Like Tentacruel, Gengar, Venusaur, Victreebel, Poliwrath, Machamp, Tangela, etc. I think by getting rid of Mewtwo, we can free the game up a bit.

"Free your mind, and the rest will follow. Can you dig?"

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From: Laurel, MD | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
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posted 06-13-2000 02:49 PM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, acey. I think you hit the mark right on this time. Fahna, I just don't see your POV, as cool as you are. As acey said, "if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions."

I'm sorry for being so immature, but it is just soo... fun.

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-Atomic Mew


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Kobayashi
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posted 06-13-2000 02:52 PM      Profile for Kobayashi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fahna posted one good reason against Mew.

These are the 'weaknesses' of Mewtwo.

1.Bug. from who? A Pin Missile from Jolteon who has low attack? The part posion Beedrill? As for Scyther(who i don't think learns any Bug moves anyway) and Parasect Ice Beam/Blizzard is a very common sight on a Mewtwo.

2.Average Defense. Use 'Hard hitting attacking moves' No, most pokemon that have high attack have low special, coupled with his speed Mewtwo can finish off any hard hitting pokemon. Plus the fact he learns Barrier.

3.He can be Parazyled. So what? He can be Frozen and put to Sleep too. Just because stat modifiers give you a chance against Mewtwo this doesn't make a big enough weakness to allow him. And in Statuim Substiute stops these from working, the only way to get a hit on him is to use a 'trode, and we have alrady gone over having to have pokemon in your team.

Mewtwo's weaknesses are so small and can all be countered against.

Fahna, you sometimes say Mewtwo with Anmesia is cheap, correct? And that you don't use Anmesia on your Mewtwo? Why? If your going to be cheap you might aswell do it properly.

On a side note this is the biggest topic i've seen on Azure, i wonder if it will hit 100, the fact that neither side look like giving in it could do...

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"I don't hate the man, but I pity the fool" - Mr. T


From: Palestine | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
TeeJay
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posted 06-13-2000 04:58 PM      Profile for TeeJay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And in Statuim Substiute stops these from working,

This and all the rest of your things with moves Mewtwo can have. You keep forgetting that he can only have 4 moves. Let's see here, you're paranoid of Sub and Barrier and Amnesia at the same time. That would mean he has no attacks, unless he ditches Recover! See, he can't have it ALL, and one attack on a Mewtwo probably wouldn't cut it IMO.

Fahna, you sometimes say Mewtwo with Anmesia is cheap, correct? And that you don't use Anmesia on your Mewtwo? Why? If your going to be cheap you might aswell do it properly.

Nah, he adds insult to injury when his Mewtwo rightly explodes in your own Mewtwo's face. Is that cheap? Nah, it's kinda funny.

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TeeJay
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From: Overland Park, Kansas, USA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
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posted 06-13-2000 05:10 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm going to completely stop arguing...only to defend myself.

When the 32 members of this tourney vote....we shall see...i hope azure doesnt chicken out just because they cant beat out without mewtwo's...and i think the mewtwo users are the ones who are disrespecting azure themselves...I wish Mr. K was in this tourney...he can show the other boards what a real azure-style beatdown is like..

By using mewtwo,YOU are making the other boards disrespect you.

And fanha....char backed me up on the resorting to spelling correction...you have me confused with teejay,the one who actually tried to insult me because i made a typo somewhere...

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
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-cfalcon

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From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Enter Your Name Here
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posted 06-13-2000 09:37 PM      Profile for Enter Your Name Here   Email Enter Your Name Here   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, a couple of things to say.

Argo: Who's weaker? The person that uses Mewtwo, or the person who bans him because he's afraid of losing to him?

Or the person who can't fight his own battles? *coughyoucough*

The person who generalized teams: Not so. My team with Mewtwo was Electrode, Magneton, Zapdos, Vaporeon, Rapidash, and Mewtwo, and Fahna can back me up on this. No Exeggutor. No Starmie. No Toby-Bro. No Mew.

And I use Mewtwo as back-up anyway. The only time Fahna even saw him was when he had his own out, fully Amnesia-d, because I know none of my others left (I believe I had Vaporeon at half health and out of attacking PP, a perfect Rapidash, and Mewtwo left), so I used Mewtwo. I use him when I need to get out of a jam.

I don't see why the level difference is such a big deal. It may make a difference in Pika, but NOT POKE, folks. Most people don't even play 55/50/50. I, myself play 53/52/50. 52/52/51 and 53/51/51 are also popular combos.

I'll be happy the day I see a Poke team posted here by someone who thinks Mewtwo is cheap.

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"


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Rolken
Vulcan
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posted 06-13-2000 11:12 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been following this thread since the beginning so I might as well put in my 2 cents *_*.

Alright, waddya have to say.

First off, what exactly is cheap? An earlier poster hit the nail on the head with, "gained with little effort."

It didn't take me much effort to gain Snorlax or Rattata. Unless you mean the moveset, in which case you have to use a few TMs (as with Tobybro, mind you).

Now then, using that definition, anyone would agree that Mewtwo would be "cheap" right? It's the one Pokemon that requires the least effort of all to win. Face it, you don't have to think much when using one. All the strategy falls down to how to take it down instead.

I strategize how to take ANYTHING down, from Chansey to Charizard. Mewtwo is no exception.


Next up, the Chansey - Mewtwo comparison. Now this is seriously far out. First of all, Mewtwo doesn't have a single stat that falls in the pathetic hundreds (Chansey A/D).

How about Arcanine?


Counter with defence curl/ reflect you say? Whatever, it'll still be a lot of turns before its got decent defence (reflect is still pretty bad on Chansey anyways).

With T-wave, you simply need to recharge after getting hit. Hopefully, you have Minimize or Double Team on it. If not; well, that's like Mewtwo without Amnesia. I've never seen my Chansey lose more than 3/5 of its HP to an attack other than Hyper Beam or Explosion, and they can take out much more than Chansey.

Mewtwo only needs 2 turns to become an offensive/defensive powerhouse. And of course, Barrier is much better a move than any defensive move Chansey can hope to learn.

Tobybro learns Amnesia, too. It can roll over pretty much anything, except lucky CH'ing T-bolters.

And Chansey may have high special, but Mewtwo's is higher plus it can learn Amnesia. No contest. In fact, Mewtwo can be a better "chansey" than Chansey can be "Chansey". Make Molly Nut Mewtwo. Thunderwave, Seismic Toss, Double Team, Recover. ^_*

So Mewtwo can counter itself. So it's better than Chansey. Point?

Now the Mewtwo can be used by everyone therefore its fair argument. The way I see it, a Mewtwo user VS a non-Mewtwo user is automatically unfair. *shrug*. Let's pretend that I'm playing against you in Street Fighter 2 at the arcade. Let's say to keep you from landing the winning hit, I hit your buttons so you'd make a mistake. You can do it too right? So it's all fair? Just because you can do the same thing, it doesn't change "fairness." You can disagree here, but I call a spade a spade. It's uneven. Mewtwo by being virtue of the best stats and type Pokemon in the game unbalances a match if one has it and the other doesn't.

What if I have Tobybro and my opponent doesn't? Is that fair? Should we have identical teams in order to MAKE it fair?

Spelling. I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to spelling insults is rather unimaginative ^_*.

I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to insulting spelling insults is rather unimaginative.

Fun. It seems here that fun means getting to use more strategy, knowing that you worked hard for a win etc etc. Using Mewtwo means less strategy needed and less work. Means less fun. Unless the only way you can have fun is by winning all the time.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder; this argument is moot. Let's argue about the best color.

Finding out who is the best. Pokemon the way I see it is a game of strategy first and foremost. Training would come into it and preserverence (to get a poke with good stats) but since you guys are using PBS, that's not a factor. That leaves pure strategy. Now since using Mewtwo requires less strategy (and shifts the battles more to luck), I'd say that skews the results a bit. The classic example of 2 Mewtwos Ice Beaming each other. Now the one who froze the other first - is he/she a better Pokemon Player with better strategy?

The classic example of Tobybro Surfing everything. If the opponent gets a locky CH, is he/she a better Pokémon player with better strategy?


SpaceDog. Was he the one that suggested blasting people off to gay island? I thought it was kinda funny ^_^;;. One of the most entertaining posts in a long time I think, for some weird reason.

Yer gay. Haha. Not funny? Aw, darn.

Mewtwo not being perfect. He may not be perfect (he is subjectable to luck after all) but he is certainly the *most* perfect out of all current 151 Pokemon. Anyone disagree? He is the best. Now here is the hard question. Who is second best? It's tricky, isn't it? The tiers in this game due to Mewtwo are unbelievably distanced apart. That should tell you something right there. And about Tobybro's popularity. He is widely regarded as being a good Mewtwo Killer. That tells you something too. (although it wouldn't be a good M2 Killer if it was a Thunderbolting/Thunder M2 but that's a different story =p).

He's a good Everything Killer. Even a Water/Ice type will only reduce his attacks to normal power, with 4* Amnesia bonus and 1/4* Type bonus.

Since mewtwo is cheap, that makes mewtwo users cheap too. Why would you want to be called cheap? - I think that's the main reason why the Mewtwo supporters are so bent out of joint. Call their Pokemon cheap and it seems like you're calling them cheap too. But if Mewtwo really is cheap, then the player is definitely cheap too. Cheap - with little effort. Using Mewtwo to win is with little effort (or less effort).

With little effort against what?


Cheap is opinion. (round 2) Well, yeah, if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions. But the most widely known definition of cheap - that even Street Fighter players use - is a tactic or action that requires the least effort to execute - an action that 'costs' less - low risk, high reward. Going by this, Mewtwo is cheap.

Going by that, Tobybro is cheap. He's weak to CH'ing T-bolts, as Mewtwo is weak to Danced Leech Lifes.

TJ accusing other people of being disrespectful / rude. Let's just say that you should practise what you preach ^_*. Maybe if you read some more of your other responses you'd see what I mean.

Mewtwo is unstoppable. Well of course he isn't. But his degree of "unstoppableness" is much higher than any other Pokemon. He is not balanced. Using an unbalanced Pokemon just to win is "cheap" going by the definiton I gave twice earlier. Now since that is this whole thread is about, I guess I can say case closed.

<sarcasm>
I thought most cases involved prosecution AND defense. Isn't that kinda disrespectful, and a little rude? Maybe you should practise what you preach.
</sarcasm>

'Much higher' is a pretty shaky term. Tobybro is an awfully powerful Pokémon.


I'm afraid I'd have to agree with TeeJay.

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From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
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posted 06-13-2000 11:18 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:
I wish Mr. K was in this tourney...he can show the other boards what a real azure-style beatdown is like..

I think the only thing that would get beaten down is my team.

If we assume my opponent is using even a small amount of strategy, I don't stand a chance.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but if you take away the Box Trick advantage and the lack of strategic opponents, my team is screwed.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
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posted 06-13-2000 11:26 PM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Na, numbers and realities back up facts. Concepts and ponderings back up opinions. There's a big difference. Talk to your
English teacher if you need help with figuring out the difference.

Or you can ask your math teachers. 1+1=2, right? Probably, but where's the proof? THERE IS NONE! You can't prove that! It is accepted in the framework of MATH. Just like this argument, in which mewtwo, is cheap. That is a FACT in this framework. You say, "that's just an opinion?? I could just as easily say, "I don't believe in numbers, they aren't real and are just imaginary things in people's heads." can you give me irrefutable proof that I'm wrong me wrong? No? understand? There is NO argument whether mewtwo is cheap. just thought I'd clarify that.

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AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew


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Mr. K
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posted 06-13-2000 11:27 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really wish you guys would include the name of the person you're responding to. Just responding to boldface and changing authors every line makes keeping the arguments straight difficult.

Anyway, I only wanted to add one thing. Fanha said:

quote:
...that is what this topic is mainly about; the cheapness of AMNESIA Mewtwos.

I totally disagree with that. A Mewtwo can totally kick ass without Amnesia. Mewtwo's Special is high enough that it doesn't even need to use it to kick ass.

Fanha continues to downplay M2's strength.

I no longer believe that he really truly believes Mewtwo is not cheap. He's a smart guy.

He's either arguing just because he likes to argue, as a psychological defense mechanism...or he's just yanking our chains.

No one talking straight would try and tell anyone with any sense that Mewtwo isn't cheap.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
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posted 06-14-2000 01:12 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Since my html is off and I'm too lazy to turn it on I'll enclose quotes in the >>> K? No wait, I'll try this UBB code stuff. Hope it works ... (is it possible to turn on html?)

Aw, but you're generalizing. Strategy is in the eye of the beholder, in this case. My kamikaze Mewtwo takes a lot of strategy to play, and it blows the Amnesiac ones away.

Errr. I wouldn't call "Thunderwave, explode, hyper beam", "a lot of strategy." Anything that let's you have an automatic predefined set of actions isn't much strategy.

There are more than Amnesia Mewtwos (though that is what this topic is mainly about; the cheapness of AMNESIA Mewtwos).

Errrr. No. It was about "Mewtwo." I've been arguing about Mewtwo in general not about any specific moveset. (like the title of this thread). I've talked about quite a bit of other moves. Nowhere have I said that I was only talking about Amnesia Mewtwos.

And like I said, he's not that hard to take down. Paralyze, explode, Hyper Beam, and that's the end. It's impossible for the Mewtwo to counter, with a switch being the only way out. If he does that, he comes back in paralyzed, so you get 2 free shots to finish him.

Your Mewtwo falls down to "Grep." And even if your moves worked, the Mewtwo player can wait until you have a paralyzed poke out, let his pokemon die, put Mewtwo out, then he gets a turn to recover. Your Mewtwo also falls down to Doubleteaming Mewtwos. I'd like to see you self destruct only to miss =p

Huh? I don't think this metaphore was very accurate. It would be more like you having a powerful fighter that could sit and pump its special attacks up, but takes more damage when hit by regular hits.

Doesn't amnesia Mewtwo take less damage as it pumps up? If you're talking about physical fighters ... most really great physical fighters are weak to Mewtwo. The only ones that aren't have to pump up ... and Mewtwo is faster than all the good physical pokes out there.

You decide to not use him. You've put YOURSELF at the disadvantage, because you had the choice to use him. Of course, we're not chosing only 1 here, but I can't stretch a metaphore "phorever"

The key words being that you are at a disadvantage that you didn't pick Mewtwo. Remember the title of the thread. This is an argument about Mewtwo's "cheapness".

Ah, butthat is YOUR definition of fun. And the Mewtwo meaning less strategy and less fun is an opinion because you are using an opinionated definition of fun. And like I said, if you can't have fun with any team, maybe Pokemon isn't your game. I can have fun with Mewtwo, without Mewtwo, etc.

Okay then, what is your definition of fun? I tried to pick one that most Pokemon players can agree with (at least the ones who think they can't have fun unless they win). It wasn't necessarily *my* definiton of fun.

And what is this "if you can't have fun with any team, maybe pokemon isnt your game?" That's ridiculous. First, you're aiming this at me - it sounds suspiciously like an insult, and if not, you're being terribly arrogant. Nowhere have I said anything about me personally, but if you must know, I *do* have Mewtwos and know how to play them. That is the reason I know how powerful it is. But I also know that when I use him, I don't have to think much. But I do have a lot of fun when I play against them (I register a team with my most powerful pokes with 2 Mewtwos on Pokesta and then try to beat them with my others - without using M2 myself).

Here's a point to ponder. Why do you think most people have trouble beating Poke Cup rather than Prime Cup in Pokesta? The reason is that no one can use Mewtwo. But Prime Cup is a cinch if you do use him (notice that when people try to get Surfing Pikachu they always have Mewtwo on their team). Mewtwo makes Pokemon easy/er.

One last thing. Would you have much fun if someone made you use a Magikarp, Kakuna, Metapod, Farfetchd, Eevee, Machop team in a tourney? Using your logic, if you can't have fun with that, maybe Pokemon isn't your game? See how insulting that is?

Of course, I can have fun using a Pikachu, but that's a different story *_*.


Your "Mewtwo requiring less strategy" arguement seems rather tainted, considering it is an opinion you are basing it around.

If you're going to go against my statements, please provide a reason why they're wrong. The above is the equivalent of just saying - your opinion is wrong. Fine, but I'd like to see *why* it's wrong. I thought I gave a rather reasonable definition of cheap as most people would see it as.

And Pokemon is NOT entirely about strategy, it is also about LUCK. If my Mewtwo got fully paralyzed 4 times in a row (yes, it's happened), would I necessarily say you have good strategy to beat Mewtwo? The answer is no, on the basic of luck, anyone can beat anything normally. Your arguement goes both ways.

Yes, there is luck, but there is also such a thing as *probability*. Pokemon Players have to know the probability of certain outcomes and base their strategy around that. Working with probabilities takes skill. As for your situation of paralyzed 4 times in a row, that has a 1/4 to the power of 4 of happening - 1/256 chance. You were terribly unlucky but face it, it's not likely to happen. But what you probably should have done is switch out when you saw how terribly unlucky you were being.

Basically your "anything can beat anything due to luck" argument is kinda flimsy. It's possible to happen but the chances are astronomically small. It's like saying a caterpie with tackle is a Mewtwo killer because there is a chance that all Mewtwo's moves will miss while you beat up on it. It's not worth arguing about. When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor*. It isn't hard to grasp that.

And how do you define perfection? That's been a philosophical and moral topic since the beginning of time.

Bleh. Perfection in Pokemon is rather easy to define - as long as your goal is you want to win. Mewtwo simply gives you far and away, the best options and chances to provide that win out of all 151 Pokemon.


Mew could also be considered "most perfect" because he can learn the most moves in the game and he has perfectly rounded stats.

Ah, but does that versatility mean you have the best chances of all to win? Versatility is nothing unless you have the power to put it to use and Mew's stats while being rounded are hardly powerhouse. Swords Dance recitfies this somewhat, but it needs 3 turns to do that and Mew doesn't exactly have the best defensive capabilities.

Mew is very good, but he still ain't got nothing on Mewtwo. In this way he can be considered, "second tier" in rankings. Many other Pokemon can be considered second tier. No other Pokemon can be considered first tier on par with Mewtwo.

And no I'd have to say Mew is EASILY second best Pokemon in the game to Mewtwo, and closely following many others such as Chansey, Snorlax, Slowbro, Exeggutor, and many others.

I disagree. There is a time and place for every Pokemon, any of those others you mention could be the best option depending on the situation. Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation.

(and no, I'm not just talking about amnesia mewtwos with one attack - Mewtwo in general please, don't put words in my mouth)


Opinionated again. Like I said, T-wave, Explosion, Hyper Beam; little effort to defeat. That's how "cheap" Mewtwo is .

You don't seem to realise that you're putting across opinions too. But anyway the key phrase here is "little effort to defeat". That is one of the key definitions of "cheap". And what pokemon did you put these moves on? Hmmm Mewtwo? I rest my case.


Me: Cheap is opinion. (round 2) Well, yeah, if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions. But the most widely known definition of cheap - that even Street Fighter players use - is a tactic or action that requires the least effort to execute - an action that 'costs' less - low risk, high reward. Going by this, Mewtwo is cheap.

You: No Pokemon "costs" anything short of a slot on your team. Amnesia "costs" time, thus it's a matter of opinion if the better move is Explosion which costs no time or Amnesia/Psychic.

I don't think you got the idea. Please read what I wrote again. Oh and do you consider Explosion a better move than Amnesia? By the way, I should remind you that no self-destruct/explosion move can KO Mewtwo in one hit unless it's a critical.

Now reread what I wrote. I gave a definition of cheap - the best one I could gather given what most people consider to be cheap.

Now, if that isn't cheap, I'd like you to give an alternate definition of cheap ...


1. The only "balanced" Pokemon are Mew and Ditto; perfectly similar stats, and all-or-nothing TM compliance.

I don't think you got what I mean by "balanced". Balanced means that every pokemon has the capability/potential of every other pokemon at the highest level of play. Balanced in the context I used it does not mean balanced stats. I have no idea where you got that idea from...

But since you brought it up, Mewtwo has unbalanced stats compared to every other pokemon in the game too.


Mewtwo cannot be gauged on "unstobbableness", because, as with perfection, you need a control of what IS unstoppable to define how close to unstoppable he is. For example, a Slowbro may die to Thunderbolt or the like, but a Mewtwo is MUCH more succeptible to physical attacks than Slowbro; that's a whole 'nother CATEGORY of types.

I wouldn't call an odd 30-40 stat points higher in defence much more susceptible to physical attacks. Think of it this way - there is a range of stats one can hold in defence such that most pokemon can damage them significantly with physcial attacks. With Mewtwo, sure, his defence is his lowest stat but that doesn't mean he has crappy defence - far from it. He has above average defence and great HP. Plus you forget that Mewtwo can learn barrier if the Mewtwo player was this afraid of physical attacks. Or he can learn doubleteam. Sword danced swift can touch him but it's still pretty weak in the scheme of things.

if the opponent has Snorlax and such but no Electric or Grass attacks on the team, Slowbro would do better.

Not if Snorlax had thunderbolt. By the way, you attach an 'if' clause (if no electric or grass). No matter the moveset, Slowbro will still die to (good) electric or grass (all other things being equal). Mewtwo has no similar clause attached to him.


If the team were all special attacks, Mewtwo would be better.

Mewtwo can be better in every single situation. Everthing that Slowbro can do, Mewtwo can do better. Sure, he may not have water moves, but ice is almost the same thing anyways. Plus there is the little liability of being a water type that Slowbro has. A good grass or electric pokemon means Slowbro's doom all other things being equal (which does not mean you get to start off with a fully powered up TobyBro and the electric starts off from null)

The reason why unstoppable and perfect cannot be gauged is that they are situational and what is unstoppable or perfect changes.

But Mewtwo has capability of being unstoppable in *every* situation. No other Pokemon can do this (as well as Mewtwo I should probably disclaim). Every Pokemon has a glaring weakness - Mewtwo has weaknesses but none are glaring and some are so pathetic you wouldn't even know it was a weakness until the text told you (Pin Missile? Super effective? Really?).

Nah, bad analogy. We can both use Mewtwos because it was intended for us to. The programmers of Street Fighter didn't intend for you to sit there and hit the other players controller. Although I did that to someone at an arcade once, he thought he would win a driving game and took his hands off, so I leaned over and crashed him into the wall, hehe.

I admit it wasn't the best analogy but it was just the most extreme one I could think of that put the point across. Just because both people can do something, it doesn't mean it's fair. But these are all opinions. My personal one is that as soon as someone has an advantage another person doesn't, it's unfair. A Mewtwo-user fighting a non-Mewtwo-user, that is unfair - even though the non-Mewtwo-user didn't sell out and use Mewtwo. At that moment in time he is at a disadvantage. That is what makes the game so challenging for the non-Mewtwo-user - he/she is fighting against the odds.

But the above is kinda irrelevant to the main argument - is Mewtwo really cheap? Well, if the game is considerably skewed towards the Mewtwo user - you know what my answer is.

By the way, when you steered the other guy into a wall, that was pretty cheap (heh).


Unimaginative, yes. Even more unimaginative, using that statement in an arguement where it has no place. I say one wrong thing, and out of all the wrong things everyone else has said, I get picked on. What I said should have stopped in that post, you have no purpose to carry it on.

Heheh .. sorry. But you should know by now that anyone who picks on spelling of all things ... well they get jumped on themselves. Spelling corrections have their place - fanfic revisions, english assignments - but in an argument, it's just being petty. As long as you got the gist of what the other person was saying, that's fine. And picking on spelling in an internet argument is a cliche - it's been overdone so much that no one can really take it seriously anymore. By the way, there was a purpose in picking on you - so that other people can see that spelling mistake correction is kind of a no-no ^_*

Opinion. Besides, read my war story. That was a very fun battle, and Mewtwo and Mew, even though on my team, never came out. I use them as backup or if I need to win. I believe it to be more fun like that, others may not.

Okay, what is your opinion of fun (in Pokemon)? Would you have more fun if you worked very hard for a win and at the end won by the slimmest margin? Would you have more fun if getting to win meant thinking at a high level of strategy?

By the way, the words sticking out are, "if I need to win." The topic is Mewtwo cheapness. What does that tell you?


You're probably assuming everyone has the moveset
Ice Beam, T-bolt, Amnesia, Recover.

Um. No. Where did I say that? You're just putting words in my mouth and that has even less place in an argument than insulting someone's spelling. (sorry I can't seem to drop it ^_*).

There are several high strategy Mewtwo movesets, but you're too busy complaining about this one to make your own. Ask Fanha about his Mewtwo moveset.

Um. In where was I complaining? I'm simply debating whether Mewtwo is cheap. Nowhere have I whined that you shouldn't use Mewtwo. The only thing I'm doing is plainly pointing out a spade as a spade.

As for high strategy moveset for Mewtwo ... examples? I don't consider Fanha's moveset very strategic. You don't need much strategy when working with the best materials to come up with something winning.

By the way TJ, when you complain about other people being rude, do you realise that this is exactly what you're doing now? You're assuming a lot of things about me when you have no real basis to.

Yes he is, but take out Mewtwo, and then there will be ANOTHER *most* perfect Pokemon that everyone complains about, who requires the LEAST skill. Something will always be the most perfect and require the least skill.

Actually no. Sure there will always be something that requires the least skill ... but that least skill required is tremendous when compared to the amount of skill you need when you have a good Mewtwo under your belt.

That is what I mean by the first and second tiers in the rankings are so far apart. It's like Mewtwo is sitting on a throne all alone and all the second best are kissing his feet.

I would have to say Mew, just because he kills Mewtwo much more than vice versa. But don't forget, Dragonite is tied with Mew in stats, and several others are within a range of 50.

Really? Mews kill Mewtwos much more than vice versa? What moveset does the Mew have and was it started off "all other things being equal"? That is to say, Mew was much more powered up than Mewtwo was when they started fighting? Was Mew specifically designed to kill a Mewtwo with a known movset?

By the way, your second statement actually helps my position out. The second tier as even you see it are all quite close to each other.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I'm not gonna put it on this post, but if you like, I could take tons of quotes found on the boards and ICQ logs that could easily show you, I am mild compared to some others.

I'm sure you could, but I am going by unbiased evidence I see right here. And if tons of other people are more mean than you, does that make you justified to be the same way?

It seems that you people like to point out everything wrong that I do and flame me instead of make some useful arguements. Ah, if it's your style.

Well, maybe they wouldn't flame you if you didn't act so condescending and arrogant. No offence.


This and all the rest of your things with moves Mewtwo can have. You keep forgetting that he can only have 4 moves. Let's see here, you're paranoid of Sub and Barrier and Amnesia at the same time. That would mean he has no attacks, unless he ditches Recover! See, he can't have it ALL, and one attack on a Mewtwo probably wouldn't cut it IMO.

The point here is that Mewtwo is the king of versatility. Like in a post I started eons ago, there are no real Mewtwo-killers because Mewtwo has a counter moveset to every single thing that had a chance to take him on. You can't say the same for any other pokemon, except for the possibility of Mew. But even then he doesn't have as much power to back himself up as Mewtwo does and requires more work on his part to actually win.

Nah, he adds insult to injury when his Mewtwo rightly explodes in your own Mewtwo's face. Is that cheap? Nah, it's kinda funny.

It wouldn't be funny if you exploded just when the Mewtwo player predicted it and switched to a Rhydon or something similar ... or if it missed due to double team. And using Mewtwo to kill another Mewtwo is just missing the point. When you have to use the same pokemon to beat something, it tells you something about that pokemon.

Well, anyway, I know there is a third page of arguments that I haven't got to yet, but since my proxy is acting like a Mewtwo *grin* I don't yet see it. When I do, I'll try to put my view on those too. Unfortunately ^_*.

Oh, and I hope the UBB code worked otherwise you'll be seeing a lot of square brackets with b in them ...

Cyas!

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 03:24 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all, before I forget, Acey, I don't include HTML, because I don't want the nonsense that breaks out on other forums to take over here. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I have to be over-protective.

As we've seen here already, given even a small chance to be annoying, people will do it (eg, using excessive images with the UBB code).

Your post came out great...just remember...square brackets...

Anyway...


quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:
There is pretty much no way a Mewtwo without Amnesia can take down a Chansey or several other Pokemon when played strategically well and without uneven luck.

Not that much uneven luck. Mewtwo has a high crit hit rate, and if he's got Psychic, he can fairly consistently undo what Amnesia does. I've been in a couple situations where Snorlax could just not overcome a Mewtwo blasting away with Psychic.

Mewtwo does not need Amnesia to slaughter a team. The fact that he has access (and that smart players take advantage of this), just makes him even more unfair.

quote:
A Mewtwo without Amnesia is like a Chansey-and-a-half.

So, a Mewtwo without Amnesia is still much tougher than a legit Mewtwo killer. Exactly my point.

quote:
Are you saying that half the people in this debate including me, TeeJay, Rolken, MewtwoSama, EYNH, AznExplosion (one of your own mods), and several others I don't remember don't have any sense?

If you (and they) are honestly trying to tell me that Mewtwo is not cheap (or some other word of similar meaning), then, yes. You (or they) either have no sense, or are not being honest with me (or yourself/themselves).

See my other post in the Azure Pokemon Center (Mathematics of Cheap...or something) to see what I mean.

By the way, this thread should probably be over there too, but it does occasionaly revert to discussion of the actual competition, so I'll leave it here...

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 06-14-2000).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 03:53 AM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This post is getting so long that you could almost publish it as a book. Call it, like "The Great Mewtwo Debate" or something.

Acey, you make some incredible points here. Nice posts.

Fanha, I think Mr. K was right when he mentioned the chain-yanking thing. I mean, I greatly respect your skills as a debater, but some of these arguments that TobyBro is just as good as Mewtwo? These are pushing it.

And did Argo run off? Hmmm...could someone post in a bold easy to read text an update of who's on which side now? I'm getting confused again.

I'm getting tired, and I have to wake up at a reasonable hour tomorrow so Biffster can come over to my house in the morning and play me in Pokemon (challenge time). C ya.

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"It's like the bastard lovechild of Tekken and Virtua Fighter."
-EGM, on Dead or Alive 2 for Dreamcast


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

Rate Member
posted 06-14-2000 05:20 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yay, the UBB code worked! Oh, and thanx Mr K for explaining about the html. Yea I can get what you mean about posting images. I have some boards too but I don't really care what goes on them as long as there's no hentai stuff being posted (but right now, a concerned mother just emailed me telling me there is a bisexual pervert trying to pick up underage girls at my Ash/Pikachu site - that never gets updated- but that's a different story *_*).

Just some random replies:

Fanha: Na, numbers and realities back up facts. Concepts and ponderings back up opinions. There's a big difference. Talk to your English teacher if you need help with figuring out the difference.

Avtually, facts are the ones that back up opinions. I don't see how concepts and ponderings can back up *anything*. By the way, when you're in an argument, insults and arrogance tends to make you look bad. Just a tip.

Amnesia seems to be the main point of this arguement.

No. See that header? Right now I could say, "If you can't read it maybe you should consult *your* English Teacher." J/K ^-^. See, I can play the insult game too, but I won't because if I wanted to do that I'd go back to usenet =p. Azure is meant to be more mature I think ...

Enter your name here: Argo: Who's weaker? The person that uses Mewtwo, or the person who bans him because he's afraid of losing to him?

Who said anyone was afraid to lose to him? I gather the main reason why most people want to ban Mewtwo is that he lessens strategy, effort and fun and skews battles toward luck. It also lessens Pokemon choice. Just because of Mewtwo several types are automatically worthless. Your projection of "oh they just want to ban Mewtwo because they're too crap to beat one." Not so.

Me: First off, what exactly is cheap? An earlier poster hit the nail on the head with, "gained with little effort."

Rolken: It didn't take me much effort to gain Snorlax or Rattata. Unless you mean the moveset, in which case you have to use a few TMs (as with Tobybro, mind you).

Neither. If you read more of what I wrote, you'd have seen that it's the *victory* that is gained with little effort. I thought it was obvious ...

[bTobybro learns Amnesia, too. It can roll over pretty much anything, except lucky CH'ing T-bolters.[/b]

Venusaur and Victreebell can roll over it with Razor Leaf. Jolteon w/ Focus Energy. Lapras with thunderbolt. Starmie with thunderbolt. Anything with doubleteam and PP waste you. Also, you seem to think that someone packing these anti-tobybros will let it power up for free. No one with an ounce of sense will let you go that far. And even if it had fully powered up, Venusaur and Jolteon still has a chance to kill it outright.

You know, I really don't get this Tobybro worship. It has several glaring weaknesses that can be exploited (all of the above). It is hardly the second-best pokemon or even the third-best. It's not even a good Mewtwo killer if the Mewtwo had doubleteam or thunderbolt/thunder. Basically, if the other person knows about Tobybro and you use it, it can be really easily countered against.

Okay, just for fun, I'll produce some mock battles.

VS Jolteon

Jolteon: Focus Energy
Toby: Thunderwave
Toby: Amnesia
Jolteon: Thunderbolt

Game.

What if Toby had earthquake? Let's assume he loses thunderwave for it.

Jolteon: Focus Energy
Toby w/ Quake: Earthquake
Jolteon loses almost half life.
Jolteon: Thunderbolt/Thunder

Game.

Okay, let's assume you have a pokemon weak to toby when you both put it out.

Pokemon1: Switch to Jolteon
Toby: Thunderwave
Jolteon is paralyzed.
Toby: Amnesia
Jolteon: Focus Energy
Toby: Amnesia or surf, it doesnt matter.
Jolteon: Thunderbolt/Thunder

Game.

It works even faster with Venusaur. And Starmie and Lapras with minimise/double team, recover/rest packing thunderbolt can also take Toby to school. Mewtwo with Thunderbolt/Thunder can take Toby to school. Jolteon without Focus Energy can also take Toby to school - he still has a rather high critical hit rate (second-best speed) and Toby won't have enough time to amnesia up before it gets fried.

The conclusion: Toby is not God of Pokemon. He is not even Goddess of Pokemon. If Toby is second/third/whatever - best does that mean those pokemon that can defeat him are higher up on the ladder? No, because it's all balanced. Rock, Paper, Scissors is the heart of Pokemon.

Now back to Mewtwo. Mewtwo is not Rock or Paper or Scissors. He is a nuclear missile which beats all three ^_*.

I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to insulting spelling insults is rather unimaginative.

Bleh. And someone who resorts to insulting insulting spelling insults is even more unimaginative.

Whatever, I gave my reasons for jumping on whoever it was that used the famous spelling insult trick.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder; this argument is moot. Let's argue about the best color.

Okay, what is your definition of fun in Pokemon? Anyway, the individual's sense of fun is less important than the majorities sense of fun. I guess that's why you guys have to vote on it.

The classic example of Tobybro Surfing everything. If the opponent gets a locky CH, is he/she a better Pokémon player with better strategy?

I debunked Tobybro as a God of Pokemon earlier ... you do not need to get all that lucky using the examples I gave. Heck, you could probably beat Toby with a Molly Nut bomb even ...

Going by that, Tobybro is cheap. He's weak to CH'ing T-bolts, as Mewtwo is weak to Danced Leech Lifes.

This is so ridiculous an example I'm not even going to try to argue on it ...

'Much higher' is a pretty shaky term. Tobybro is an awfully powerful Pokémon.

Sure it is. *When it powers up*. And even then, it's weaknesses still kill it. I think you place a little too much faith in it.

TJ: Mewtwo is as cheap as Tobybro, like Rolken said. Or maybe he's a little more cheap, but not much.

O_O. You are seriously deluding yourself if you believe that. No offence.


Also, take away Mewtwo. Oh my gosh! Tobybro is rippin it up because nobody has time to prepare their "anti-Toby" Pokemon in time because they didn't have it out first!

So what if they didn't have it out first? Slowbro needs 3 turns (4 inclusing thunderwave) to power up and it's still useless against its counters even if it does power up.

Tobybro is tearin everything up! The electric types can't kill it because it's already powered up! WE CAN'T STOP IT!!!

Jolteon with Focus or Jolteon with DT/Rest or Jolteon with lucky critical hitting thunderbolts/thunders (33% chance is pretty good - kinda like a one hit KO except in this case it actually is that).


Wait, there IS a way to stop it. Let's call it cheap, and bitch and complain about it until we get it outlawed! YES!!! We stopped it!

*Shrug* I think it's balanced. It has several exploitable weaknesses that can even one hit KO it. It has considerable setup time. Not so with Mewtwo.

Cyas!

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
Farting Nudist
Member # 41

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 05:35 AM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
FAHNA:Oh geez...now you're getting rediculous. If there were no such thing as a fact, technically, there could be no such thing as
language structure, reality itself, or the mathematics involved in the game of Pokemon for that matter. Now, the reason why we
can't agree about cheap is because there is no set of conditions as to what is cheap. I think it needs to be laid down as to the
exact numerics of what defines cheap; a mechanical process to determine cheapness. That is the only absolute way such a
thing can be determined.

You want "conditions"?
Here are some:
1)Highest stats in the game; highest special, above average defense, GREAT HP, darn FAST, +300 attack.
2)No REAL weaknesses.
3)Learns kick ass moves; amnesia, recover, substitute, barrier, most special attacks, (if not all).
4)Can counter most anti-mewtwo pokemon by just a change in moveset.
5)Is the best in the game(no argument with this; even you "non-anti mewtwo" people aggreed to this).

or were you reffering to "mathamatical conditions". ok, here are some.
Special > everything else
attack and defense > average
speed = second highest
TM compatability and natural move list = very high

or were you reffering to an mathamatical function that determines whether a pokemon is cheap or not.

f:cheap->(a+b+c+d+2e)/z - 1
a=HP
b=attack
c=defense
d=speed
e=special
z=the total of mewtwo's stats + e

if the function >= 0, then that pokemon is cheap, ok? (Note: this was a JOKE, don't flame me for this)

Now tell me what can counter him, consistently. Water or grass types don't cut it. Chansey? Maybe. Just get earthquake or submission. Snorlax? What a slow ass! Same with chansey, his defense sucks. Critical hits would ALSO be devastating to him.

PS:Fahna, I'd like to see that paper. It would be interesting to read.

------------------
AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew


Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 08:46 AM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Argo: Who's weaker? The person that uses Mewtwo, or the person who bans him because he's afraid of losing to him?

EYNH,first..no one here is afraid of cheapass two..if i really have to fight one,i will..

And to answer your question,the mewtwo user,IMO is the weak one...

If anyone has to stoop that low to use cheapasstwo...they are quite the cowardly and spineless trainers...IMHO

><

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 11:26 AM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
If you (and they) are honestly trying to tell me that Mewtwo is not cheap (or some other word of similar meaning), then, yes. You (or they) either have no sense, or are not being honest with me (or yourself/themselves).


I never said Mewtwo wasn't cheap; I also never said he was.

But, if he IS considered cheap, there are certainly other Pokémon used by those considering him cheap that could also be considered cheap. Mewtwo isn't the only one.

What's the point of this argument anyway? To convince Mewtwo users not to use him? You might as well try to convince me not to use Wigglytuff or Chansey. Using Mewtwo is perfectly legitimate.

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COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 11:37 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rolken:
But, if he IS considered cheap, there are certainly other Pokémon used by those considering him cheap that could also be considered cheap. Mewtwo isn't the only one.

Nope. Only Mewtwo is far and away the best Pokemon. Nothing else comes close.

quote:
What's the point of this argument anyway? To convince Mewtwo users not to use him?

No, of course not. Those who want to use him will continue to use him.

The whole discussion is about cheapness.

If someone uses Mewtwo, that tells me something about that player.

I think the argument started because some people claim there's no real reason to ban Mewtwo.

I think there is a very clear and very legit reason for banning him. I'm not saying he should be banned, I'm just saying that there's a very strong argument for banning him, if the players involved are concerned about cheapness.

If they aren't, then screw it. No big deal.

The only thing I will not take lying down is the idea that Mewtwo is not cheap, because that's clearly ridiculous.

quote:
Using Mewtwo is perfectly legitimate.

Well, as long as the people making the rules say he's legit, then it is, yeah. But if they want to rise above the cheap, then it doesn't have to be legit.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Apophis
worthless spud
Member # 487

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 07:10 PM      Profile for Apophis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ok, here it is, plain and simple.

im going out on a limb here, but i have battled against other people more than all of you put together. probably ten thousand, easily.

mewtwo is NOT cheap, unless the other player has not had a chance to catch one, or have it traded to him.

saying that something is cheap is just a cop out response to getting your ass kicked.
ive learned alot on the tours, and the biggest thing is to adapt to the current styles of battling.
as soon as tobybro got big, i stopped using him, and started using electrode/sandslash/mewtwo.
electrode: twave
explosion
thunderbolt
takedown
sandslash: dig
slash
earthquake
focus energy
mewtwo: psychic
blizzard
substitute
recover

i dont say that this is the "best" team, by any means, but it did the job.

we should stop slinging mud at eachother, and agree to disagree with eachother.

just battle petite cup. its the truest test of skill, as you have to use crappy pokemon effectively. think about it!
brandon

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I am Lord of this world, and the next.
My power surpasses that of any normal HUMAN.
None may contain my evil.


From: Ghent, Belgium | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
Farting Nudist
Member # 41

Member Rated:
posted 06-14-2000 10:30 PM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Um.... I hope that's one of your teams that you use to make little kids feel happy, Apophis....

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AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew


Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 12:32 AM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm...notice that all the hot-shot players use mewtwo...

Imagine how much respect they would get if they didnt use him...i mean,with ALL THAT skill..why would they need to?

Unless....that so-called skill is actually non-existant.

^ ^;;

I already probably respect dreadite ,but his use of mewtwo affects it.

I ONLY respect him for his SKILL IN BATTLE...and not the pokemon he uses bar everything but mewtwo.

Fanha....would you feel better sweeping some intermediate-experienced person's team with a mewtwo?or a...uhm...Mr. Mime.

THERE ARE ONE HUNDRED FIFTY FREGGIN ONE POKEMON IN THE GAME....USE THEM.

Bah....sorry..that was personal preference....but for some reason...i love underused pokemon....because i think everything has potential in one way or another...and i like to exploit that potential...and BOY,does it feel good winning with them.

Mr. K can vouch for this aswell i think....

Tell me,dont you think it feels great when wiggly DOES beat that popular pokemon...and hitmonlee DOES get you the win?

IMO,a Mewtwo is like Drugs.

-It's bad for you.
-It's no fun in the end.
-Once you start,you cant stop.

^ ^;;

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo

[This message has been edited by Argo (edited 06-15-2000).]


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 01:30 AM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fanha:So what? That's because he's a good Pokemon, and most "hot-shot" players figured out he's good, so they use him.

Hmm...it sure takes alot to figure that out,doesnt it?

I think the real masters should be enjoyable to fight,win or lose...play fair,and be humble.

Mewtwo is the opposite of all of that.

^ ^;;

Fanha:Just because you've "got skills" doesn't mean you should slack off and not put up you best. Most know it's an illogicial idea to not use Mewtwo, and the good players who decide not to understand the risk they're taking, and accept the fact that they are putting themselves at a disadvantage (ie MewtwoSama). I can respect that. But those who don't want to have that disadvantage are just whining, like you. That I can't respect. It's your choice; live with it and don't whine to us about how glum it is down your little choice road.

Risk you're taking?

Boy....by saying that,and defending mewtwo THIS long...i can obviously see you have a problem with losing...*sigh* i pity you..and yes...mewtwo IS a advantage...But only the people addicted to the win "high" of mewtwo need that advantage.

I know for a fact Fanha,you're a good trainer....not only good,but very good...why do you NEED mewtwo like a little security blanket to ensure your win which pleasures you so?

Fanha:Like I said, I have fun, win or lose, no matter what team. When I want to win, I play a serious team with Mewtwo; I have fun with that just as much as I would playing with Mr. Mime. I don't use Mr. Mime instead of Mewtwo because that plainly defies common sense if I am trying to win, and offers me no benefit considering I don't care what my team is and my "fun factor" is the same. That's why I don't. I have learned to have fun in all games, and that's why I don't feel anything about what I use. The point is, why use Mr. Mime when you can use Mewtwo? It doesn't make sense. That's like eating a sour orange instead of a ripe one; I could, but why? And I'm talking about REPLACING Mewtwo with Mr. Mime; I'm not talking about using Mr. Mime in general. And you should really get off of this "win high" concept; there's no such thing in my game.

Are you sure you have fun win OR lose?

There's no such thing as the win high in your game?

Thats what YOU think...you just dont realize it....

Wow...mewtwo is becoming more relative to drugs as we go on..

Fanha:...but you should accept the risk that you're taking of losing with them.

Risk AGAIN?Alrighty...losing is no risk..oh dear...i lose a match...big whoop...it just makes the revenge ever so sweet..

Fanha:I think your "win high" concept is probably what you experience from what you're saying...I frankly don't get tons of "different feelings" from a video game competition...

I think you do,because you are either:

-VERY scared of losing
-A win freak..which is sort of the same as the first point..


Fanha:No he's not.

- Not really.
- To you.
- Right...sure...

Okay...uhm...see that little "IMO" over there?

Yea..that means In My Opinion...

I AM justified to my opinion,arent i?

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 02:13 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, Fanha has clearly lost his mind (and all focus on the argument) and has degenerated into nitpicking, so I'll respond to his phone book-sized post with just something small and relevant:

quote:
Mewtwo would be cheap is it gave the other player an advantage. It doesn't, because you have that same advantage.

This is a non-argument. There would be no debate whatsoever if this were the point, and you know it.

It would go something like this:

X: Mewtwo is cheap because everyone can't get one!
Y: Actually, everyone can get one.
X: Oh. Sorry. I'm wrong.

OK, so now that you realize that's not the point, I hope it doesn't come up again.

As for your comment about Slowbro/Mew being equivalently powerful to Mewtwo, now you're just being silly.

If you're going to continue to make that claim, I don't think we have any more to say to each other about this.

You've already shown me in your writing that you do believe Mewtwo is cheap. Whether you're not admitting it to yourself or just refuse to publically admit it is another matter, but it's obvious that deep down you know Mewtwo is cheap...altho you might use another word for it.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no more debate (except about fiddling details) unless someone who actually doesn't believe Mewtwo is cheap joins the discussion.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
starCaliber
is evil and also MewtwoSama
Member # 268

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 04:30 AM      Profile for starCaliber   Email starCaliber   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
THANK YOU, Mr. K. Thank you very much. I wish I could be as logical as you...

Fanha, your thousand page responses defending Mewtwo are giving me eyestrain. I know that a true debater reads everything, but it seems to me that you're just saying the same things over and over again, and they're not any more credible now than they were the first time they were posted.

Look, I accept Mewtwo as a part of the game, and am willing to play against it (although he/she who uses it should realize that I don't think too much of their Pokemon skills). But for you guys to kid yourself into thinking that Nintendo could NEVER make an unbalanced game is nonsense. That seems to be one of your main grounds for defense, and I don't wanna hear it.Mewtwo is not like other Pokemon, and I don't know why someone should have to continue to remind people of that.

And Fanha, give me a break. The way you claim to play Pokemon is not unlike that of a machine (i.e. You can ALWAYS have fun, but you get no joy out of beating people). I guess if playing with Mewtwo is fun for you, then go nuts. But you're just like the rest of 'em. Why don't you drop the blanket, and take the challenge that so many people on Azure already do? Fight without Mewtwo. It is so rewarding.

Argo, I like your Mewtwo to drugs analogy. Pretty funny, and so true it's scary.

I'm starting to think that this topic is gonna die off sooner than expected. How can you guys believe that playing Pokemon with Mewtwo is fun? Have you ever played Perfect Dark, SoulCalibur, and Super Smash Bros? Those are the kinds of games that show you what you could be playing other than Pokemon. Therefore, I want my Pokemon matches to be as fun/strategic as they can be. And no, I'm sorry. Mewtwo doesn't fit into that equation very well.

Do you Mewtwo supporters honestly think that it is more fun to play Pokemon with Mewtwo allowed? If you do, then I challenge you to actually try a match without said powerhouse. Unless you are hanging onto Mewtwo with dear life, you will like it better without him.

Sorry if this post comes off as angry, but I had a lot of steam to vent here. Chances are, you've heard the last or almost the last out of me on this topic.

------------------
"It's like the bastard lovechild of Tekken and Virtua Fighter."
-EGM, on Dead or Alive 2 for Dreamcast


From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

Rate Member
posted 06-15-2000 06:30 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fanha:You are confusing different things. That is about how to take out Mewtwo without another Mewtwo. My own Mewtwo has Thunder Wave, Blizzard, Selfdestruct, Recover. It's a very tricky guy to play, as are all kamikazes. Gotta know when to hold 'em...and know when to blow 'em!

I'm not confusing anything. The example you gave was that your Mewtwo would selfdestruct (after paralyzing) and then you'd bring in snorlax or someone similar to hyper beam finish. Don't lie about this now! I can dig through the posts and provide proof.

Well I don't think there's much question that Mewtwo without Amnesia is NOT cheap. You either must have only played a non-Amnesia one as a newbie, or have a seriously flawed team. Without Amnesia, Mewtwo can be beaten by any powerup Pokemon: Slowbro, Mew...need I go on?

Why don't you hold off on the insults and argue honestly? By the way, a Mewtwo without amnesia can be cheap. He has high enough special without resorting to one. Simply give him doubleteam instead. M2 still has a high CH rate against "almighty" Slowbro. And don't forget, with your powerup pokemon, you have to do precisely that - powerup. Don't assume the other player is just hanging around twiddling his thumbs. We are considering *highest level of play*. If 2 players of equal skill played the game of pokemon, one with Tobybro, the other with Mewtwo w/ thunderbolt (the rest of the moves not sucking) who would win?

Like I said that's not my Mewtwo's lineup. Grep can be stalled very easily.

Don't try to switch the situation. We are talking about your self-destructing Mewtwo VS Grep. What's it gonna do, self destruct against a sub? Okay, now I know it has Blizzard. What is blizzard going to do when Grep amnesias up?

You don't need Mr super-huge attack to take down Mewtwo. An Electrode with Screech can do the job itself.

Grep kills Electrode too. Do you realise that for every anti-Mewtwo strategy you can give me, I can give a counter moveset to make Mewtwo an anti-anti-Mewtwo? Your fighting an uphill battle here.

Mewtwo would be cheap is it gave the other player an advantage. It doesn't, because you have that same advantage.

O_O ..... Somehow I think Mewtwo gives you an advantage. By the way, when you're forced to use the same Pokemon to counter a Pokemon that *is* cheap. I thought this was already debated out.

Fun is playing Pokemon for me. I have fun playing the game, no matter the team, luck, or anything else. I have fun playing Pokemon for what it is.

Remember you said that.

In Pokemon, you chose your own teams. That's part of Pokemon. A team would not be forced on me, because that's not how Pokemon works. In a similar way, I shouldn't be forced to not use certain Pokemon, because that's not part of the game either.

Do you realise here that you have just killed your own argument? Mewtwo is not cheap because the other player can use the same cheap pokemon. What's this? You're *forced* to use Mewtwo?

Any of those things is stepping outside of the generic game of Pokemon and talking about a whole 'nother type of playing style. And I could still have fun with a team like that in casual play.

In casual play now is it? Why wouldn't you have fun in tourney play? Because you want to win? Now you just told me that winning is a huge part of your fun in Pokemon. Your other example that you have fun when you beat the 'big' guys with 'small' guys or something to that effect. That involves winning too.

*Little wonder* you're arguing Mewtwo isn't cheap. It makes you look bad.

... and he is not unfair/unbalanced because you have the same resources as your opponent.

I was gonna argue against this too before I realised its only the same argument reworded. Bleh.

By the way, the opinion I took is the *majority's* opinion of what has always been considered to be cheap. Heck it's even in the dictionary.

Na, there's no such thing as "unlucky streaks".

Um. No. Anytime something unlucky happens in a row, that is an unlucky streak.

You still only have the 1/4 chance each time. Switching out doesn't change anything.

Hmmm? So switching in an unparalyzed poke means that it gets fully paralyzed too?

Mewtwo doesn't change luck.

Stop trying to reword I say into something you can argue against.

(When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor*) is not equal to (Mewtwo changes luck)

But he is not perfect.

Did anyone say that or argue it? You're changing the argument again. Since Mewtwo is the best, he can be considered the most perfect out of all the Pokemon. This isn't the same thing as being outright perfect.

Like I said before: Mewtwo simply gives you far and away, the best options and chances to provide that win out of all 151 Pokemon.

If you dispute that, I'm going to have to conclude you a fool. No offence intended of course as I know you're pretty smart and probably don't believe that Mewtwo isn't the best.

In fact, Mew doesn't share Mewtwo's defensive weakness. Mewtwo, in reality, is more vulnerable.

The official Mew's defence stat is 270 if I recall correctly. You call Mewtwo's 278 that much more vulnerable? O_O. Mewtwo has better defence!

By the way if you're taking 298 defence you are a cheater. But still, it isn't that much higher than Mewtwo's 278 defence. 20 points, whoopty-doo.

a Mew with Horn Drill and Thunder Wave will beat a Mewtwo considering Horn Drill (should) hit in the first 3 uses.

Tell that to Grep ...

Mew is definitely on par with Mewtwo.

Do you really believe this?

Mewtwo is NOT good in EVERY situation.

I'm going to have to ask you to stop changing what I say.

What I said was: Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation.

They're very different statements.

<snip electrode and rhydon or whatever battle against Mewtwo>

You are assuming the Mewtwo player is incompetant *and* its moveset. Pretend for a moment that *you* were using that Mewtwo as well. What would you do?

By the way I already gave a way to stop this in an earlier post *even* if it had worked out like you said (electrode gets to explode). Not to mention that this strategy involves sacrificing one whole pokemon. Which involves a lot of risk (what happens if Mewtwo switches when you explode? There goes your strategy)

Oh and as before, that falls down to Grep too. Or doubleteaming Mewtwo.

Both are situational

Isn't it funny that every single anti-Mewtwo strategy you've given me is situational?

By the way I remember an earlier post asking for the best overall moves. Probably amnesia was the most frequent response.

Another flaw. You're creating an idea around only a single case. To be dramatic, take the case of Butterfree vs Slowbro. Does it have even NEARLY the same capability/potential as Slowbro? No. So should Slowbro be banned?

I have no idea what you're trying to prove here. I simply stated that 'balanced' in the context I used it meant, well a fair match/pokemon. Balanced in the sense of Rock Paper Scissors. Not "even" stats. Instead you give me this Butterfree, Slowbro stuff.

Mewtwo's Defense, though, doesn't meet the "super-high-cheap" thing, though. And it is weaker than all of his other stats.

Your argument was that Mewtwo was much more susceptible to physical attacks than Slowbro. I proved it wasn't. What are you going on about now? That Mewtwo's defence isn't as hot as his other stats? So what? Does that prove anything?

Mewtwo is good IF there aren't any kamikazes or powerful physical attackers. See? He DOES have an "if" clause.

Mewtwo *can* defeat any kamikaze or physical fighter one on one. And the if clause you mention is nullified by *another* if clause this time "if Mewtwo has XXX move, Mewtwo-killer is no longer a Mewtwo-killer".

For eg. Your Kamikaze fighters will suck if Mewtwo used Substitute. They'll suck even if the Mewtwo player is a good "player" and can predict when you are going to do things. Support Electrode eventually blows up. Simply switch when its almost dead. Or switch if you get screeched.

Slowbro isn't normally percieved as such a high threat as Mewtwo, and usually won't get as much "special treatment" compared to Mewtwo.

And why is that you wonder? Find it funny that Mewtwo is still God of Pokemon despite everyone knowing about him? What happens to Toby if everyone knows about him?

By the way the advantages that you gave are still less than the advantages Mewtwo has. Are you trying to convince me that Slowbro is better than Mewtwo still? Because I already posted my opinion on that.

Mewtwo can be unstoppable in every situation? That's an outright lie; I can name you off a billion cases where a Mewtwo is dead no matter WHAT it does.

Okay, give me your billion cases and I will give you a billion counter-cases. If I don't suddenly get bored that is - I have kinda short attention span sometimes =Ţ

If you want to win, use Mew or Mewtwo. and that's a good idea.

Thanks for helping out my case, though I thought you were on the other side...

But I never even said the moveset! You're simply jumping to conclusions about my Mewtwo...you can attack me, but attacking my Pokemon when you don't even know them...that's downright LOW!

One of you already mentioned it. I knew it had thunderwave, and self destruct - I guessed the other to be recover. That's all I needed to know really.

See last paragraph. 'Nuff said.

Okay, I'm looking at it. I fail to see your point.

If a teacher gives you an F at school, does that mean the teacher was rude?

How do you measure "amount of skill" required? I don't think this term should even be used; playing is playing.

Okay. Register your team of your best Pokemon on PokeSta - naturally that means Mewtwo as well.

Now, go get your Mom or Dad and offer to wash the dishes or something if only they played you at Pokemon. Now use identical teams.

The one who won most likely had the most skill. Luck can skew things of course, so offer the parent you played to wash the car too if they played you a couple more times. The one who won the most is the most skillful. There ya have it!

Of course, you can replace Mom and Dad with other people, like a friend a girlfriend or whatever.

Seriously though, 'skill' as I personally define it is the one who using his knowledge of the game, uses the best moves for each and every situation (including switching etc etc). What are best moves? Well the moves that at that instant of time will get you the fastest on the road to victory.

That's why having knowledge is a big part of skill in Pokemon - I doubt you'd find a truly crap Pokemon Player who read through all of Azhure heights.

Mew with Swords Dance. 'Nuff said. It rivals Mewtwo himself.

What's it gonna do to Aerodactyl? Double Teamer? Anything that charges faster than it? (Mewtwo). Etc etc etc.

I'm not saying Mew with SD is not good - it's very very good. But it ain't no Mewtwo.

Yes, actually, when designed right, a good Mew can stand its own against a Mewtwo, lucky fairy willing (as in most cases).

Okay, tell me your almighty Mew Moveset *_*

By the way you need to have luck? How much luck?

You probably either haven't played a working Mew setup, or have made mistakes while playing it. (I'm not assuming, I'm just speculating...gotta put a lot of () or I'll get flamed for everything!)

I'm not even gonna reply to this. Notice I never say comments like: You probably don't know how to play; You probably don't have working XXX; You probably suck.

Geez, if you're trying to insult me, you're doing a good job ...

But I will tell you that I do have a legit Mew from the Aussie tour down here and I've experimented with a lot of movesets...

It's all in the moveset. Mew is MUCH more versitile than Mewtwo; there's no contest there.

Can Mew learn Amnesia? Barrier?


His tier is WAY ahead of Mewtwo's there, or whatever you said about Mewtwo's teir being ahead of everyone elses.

Sorry for not explaining exactly what tiers are. You can think of tiers as rungs on a ladder. The highest you are on a ladder, the better you are. Mewtwo is sitting on the first or highest tier. By himself.

Mew, Snorlax, Toby whatever you want I guess can be considered sitting on the next-highest rung. (second tier).

I got the term from Street Fighter when arguing about which characters are best ...

And of course if I predict their prediction (weird but true) I Blizzard and their Rhydon is toast and I laugh at them. And sure, nothing works 100%, but most people don't even know if it;s my Mewtwo with Selfdestruct; I play lots of variants to keep people on the edge.

That's what I mean by "skill."

Exactly, that's why the opinions can't be backed up, and why they can't be used

Didn't I just say that facts back up opinions? *_*. Opinions are opinions yes, but the most valid opinions are the ones most based on fact. For instance, I could say, "In my opinion, apples are not red but sky blue." But its an invalid opinion coz the fact is, apples are red. (By the way don't try to be nitpicky and say that some apples are green - you know what I mean ...)

Wait, here's another one. "In my opinion, 1 + 1 = 11"

Bingo. I think you've got that Slowbro is also "cheap" by the same reasons mewtwo would be. SpaceDog hasn't accepted this.

I already gave my counters on this one.

Sounds like the Mewtwo killing thing except with a couple names replaced...Swords Dance and Focus Energy...Thunderbolt and Explosion...

I'll just say one word for the above: Substitute.

You can't do the same thing to Slowbro *no matter what he has* he will still die to its counters.

And frankly I don't really consider a kamikaze Pokemon a true Mewtwo-killer... your milege may vary of course ..

Just like Mewtwo. If I know someone's using a Mewtwo, I can build my team to counter it.

But you have to know what moves it has. No matter the moves on Toby, good electrics/electric moves, good grass will kill it. (remember all other things being equal - Tobybro doesn't start off full pumped up while Electric is null)

T-wave/Explosion/finish. Don't need to get lucky for that either.

Excuse me ... that depends on a *lot* of luck. Whether Mewtwo doesn't have sub, whether Mewtwo didn't predict you and switch out, whether Mewtwo didn't have DT or Barrier, whether Mewtwo is smart and avoids the finish, whether Mewtwo doesn't get a lucky critical if it started off guns blazing ... well you get the idea.

See above. Mewtwo can't counter that either.

See above. It can and will get countered against a good player. Like I said, pretend for an instant there are 2 Fanhas, one with your kamikaze, one with Mewtwo. Pretend that you're the Fanha with Mewtwo and if you win the game you win a million bucks. What are you gonna do?

Better yet, let's go for ACTUAL one-hit KOs! In reality you're looking at the same odds, but it can kill ANY Pokemon in one hit! And it's more like a 25% chance...oops maybe the one-hit KOs are BETTER...

This analogy would be correct, if for each time you missed the one-hit KO, it takes off over 50% of your life anyway.

Ah, that's the point; many people don't think it is legitimate.

It's legitimate, but don't delude yourself into thinking its not cheap and that Slowbro is as cheap as Mewtwo is.

Teejay:

Have you ever tried this? An Earthquake from Slowbro brings Jolteon past half life, significantly.

Hmmm, well not significantly. Though this assumes both are at max stats. I rather doubt most people try to catch Slowbros with good attack. But anyways, I concede the point.

*But* this depends on if the Slowbro anticipated the change. Which would be rather hard in a real life situation. And even if it did work out exactly how you wanted it, the Jolteon has a turn to use. He could either attack hoping for a critical, thudnerwave and then attack, hoping for paralysis, DTeam or Sand Attack ...

Or if the Jolteon knew you had earthquake, he could simply decide to send it in when it gets a chance to go first. Or he predicts you're not going to use Earthquake ... it goes both ways.

By the way, don't say that isn't an option, because the Slowbro user would also *have* to know there's a Jolteon and he was going to switch it in at that precise instant. If the Slowbro gets extra knowledge, the Jolteon player should too.

Of course, Jolteon isn't the only Toby Killer. That strat wouldn't work on Venusaur regardless if you predicted you'd switch it in. I'm pretty sure that Venusaur's better defence can take it on (not to mention ground VS grass/poison is nullified to 1). It also wouldn't work on thunderbolting starmies, Mewtwos, Lapras etc. And remember that by losing thunderwave (by including earthquake) you lose the speed advantage everytime (Slowbro is the slowest aside from Snorlax). There's a reason why Toby has Twave ...

It's a good idea though, earthquake on Slowbro, but you still have to be pretty lucky to capitalise on it... I guess also that psychic on Slowbro would go good against venusaur if it had an extra turn ... unless Razer Leaf kills in one hit.

Well, that's it for now...

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 12:22 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the real disparity comes from Mewtwo defenders defending pathetic Mewtwo movesets and Mewtwo assailers assaulting Mewtwos with a dozen moves(If he has Double Team, and if he has Thunder Wave, and if he has Horn Drill, and if he has Substitute, and...)

Reality check, folks. Mewtwo has better stats than anything else (Defense WEAKNESS? Uh, right...) and already starts off with a kick-ass moveset (Recover, Barrier, Amnesia, Psychic). Add a few QUALITY TMs and he can roll over more than anything else can, unless they get a real overhaul and the Mewtwo is trained badly. The fact that he can be stopped isn't saying much; if there were a Pokémon that COULDN'T be stopped, Pokémon battles would go on forever.

And the fact remains that most Mewtwo players know nothing about using him, as most Chansey or Slowbro or Jolteon etc. players know nothing about using them.

Beauty fades, dumb is forever.

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COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
maagisk
Farting Nudist
Member # 536

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 01:06 PM      Profile for maagisk   Author's Homepage   Email maagisk   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
mewtwo is very cheap however he's a great way of testing your pokemon skills. try to make a team without using mewtwo, if u can be succesfull, your r a very skillfull trainer. ill let u in on a little trick, catch a chansey and use it to faint mewtwo. divew it the moveset: toxic/seismictoss/lightscreen/soft boiled.
first use toxic to start it off, after time mewtwo will get so poisoned that recover wont do him good. then whenever he uses psychic it will take away about 1/2 of chanseys health, when its your turn use soft boiled, if mewtwo tryes to use amnesia to power up his psychic, just use light screen to protect yourself from it, if he uses it again then u use it again, if he uses substitute just brake it with seismic toss, after time toxic will faint mewtwo in 1 hit. thats just one of the ways to faint mewtwo.

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From: Dramen, Norway | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Apophis
worthless spud
Member # 487

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 08:54 PM      Profile for Apophis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ok, ill lay it out one more time.
mewtwo isnt cheap. mewtwo is just the most versatile (statwise) pokemon there is in rby.

whether he should be allowed or not depends on the two people battling.

sure, he has some glaring advantages, but mewtwo amounts to shit if you dont train him well. its all up to the skill of the trainer.

he CAN lose, very easily. he can win very easily as well.

stop arguing about it, or you may as well draw a line across the board, and decide to not talk to eachother again. its getting pretty ugly.
brandon

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I am Lord of this world, and the next.
My power surpasses that of any normal HUMAN.
None may contain my evil.


From: Ghent, Belgium | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

Member Rated:
posted 06-15-2000 10:29 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apophis:ok, ill lay it out one more time.
mewtwo isnt cheap. mewtwo is just the most versatile (statwise) pokemon there is in rby.

Yup....versatile.

And versatile,by such a HIGH margin,its CHEAP.

Like fist fighting with one guy having a metal bat.

Apophis:sure, he has some glaring advantages, but mewtwo amounts to shit if you dont train him well. its all up to the skill of the trainer.

Bwahaha...i cant believe you're doing the "train him right" arguement..how hard is it to:

Walk to Unknown Dungeon with your masterball...Save the game and one open slot in your team.

catch him,and check stats,,,keep doing that until you get atleast max defense and hp,the next most important is speed,then attack....a 3 way would be nice..but 2-way will do.

give him vitamins,right then and there.

run him through e4 until 100...

keep barrier,amnesia,recover,psychic.

box in the Uknown Dungeon with byclycle,animation off,and dodrio mode if possible.

Duplicate him.

Make your 5-6 different movesets.

i could do it all in a day,with dodrio mode.

I know you come in contact with alot of newbies,but there will be few in the four way board tourney who are planning to use mewtwo...

And there will be FIVE way max mewtwo's...

><

Apophis:he CAN lose, very easily. he can win very easily as well.

He can lose..but not easily...dont even try to say he can with no explanation of examples to back your argument up.

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
Farting Nudist
Member # 41

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posted 06-15-2000 10:40 PM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apophis:sure, he has some glaring advantages, but mewtwo amounts to shit if you dont train him well. its all up to the skill of the trainer.

That argument has no place in here. This WAS originally about the tourney, no? And I ASSume everyone's using max stats....

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AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew


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TeeJay
Farting Nudist
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posted 06-15-2000 10:48 PM      Profile for TeeJay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Acey: He can lose..but not easily...dont even try to say he can with no explanation of examples to back your argument up.

Oh my gosh, that was lame. Acey why do you continue to argue anyway? I'm sorry I'm really trying to stay out of this, but I like to point out stupidity, both ways. So consider me neutral.

Acey, are you telling him to rewrite half of this topic so he can give you some examples? I'm sorry, look around you. There are tons of examples.

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Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com


From: Overland Park, Kansas, USA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
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posted 06-16-2000 02:06 AM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That wasnt Acey, Teejay...that was me.

^ ^;;

No,i will not look around..its the same crap.

And thats my point,you guys have run out of excuses..

We WIN

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

Rate Member
posted 06-16-2000 10:03 AM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Teejay, as Argo said, that wasn't me. *_*

C'mon, I get enough with Fanha changing my wording to suit his own argument, I don't need to be confused with a totally different one as well ...

But all the same, I already debunked all your 'examples' anyhows ...

Why do I argue though? Good question ... well aside from the fact that I wanna see just how far you guys try to squirm out of good logic just so you don't have to admit you're wrong, well, I kinda like debating ^_*. (I mean, Tobybro as good/better than Mewtwo? Now that took the cake!).

By the way, what's this neutral stuff? You're *obviously* on the "Mewtwo isn't cheap" side and the only stupidity you've been flinging around is at us.

I also noticed a new trend of you guys admitting that Mewtwo is unbalanced, but still insisting it isn't cheap. Don't you realise that, that's what cheap is? *_*. Taking advantage of an unbalance is cheap. I guess it sounds more nasty than unbalanced though so I can see why you wouldn't want to be called that.

Well

Seeyas!

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-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-


From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Apophis
worthless spud
Member # 487

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posted 06-16-2000 01:22 PM      Profile for Apophis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ok, argo. i can tell you this much.
the reason you guys hate using mewtwo soooo much is because you cant think of any creative new ways to beat him. thats the challenge with mewtwo. if he has max stats, then hes a hard mutha to kill, but nowhere near impossible.

i know that you could NAME the pokemon (within reason) for me to use, and i could waste a mewtwo with him. i can think of a few others on the board that could do the same.

come to one of my tour dates, and ill show you all about pokemon.

its all about training. it has nothing to do with "cheapness". its all about you guys being too lazy to: 1. learn to use mewtwo effectively. or 2. train a well balanced team thats not just built to "counter" mewtwo, but to defeat an entire team.

i think the spirit of the discussion has been lost, though. get back on track, guys!
brandon

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I am Lord of this world, and the next.
My power surpasses that of any normal HUMAN.
None may contain my evil.


From: Ghent, Belgium | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
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posted 06-16-2000 04:39 PM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apophis:ok, argo. i can tell you this much.
the reason you guys hate using mewtwo soooo much is because you cant think of any creative new ways to beat him. thats the challenge with mewtwo. if he has max stats, then hes a hard mutha to kill, but nowhere near impossible.

Its not about beating the mewtwo.Thats not the hardest thing in the world.There ARE counters for it i admit..but it deprives you from using a full SIX POKEMON TEAM of the pokes you will enjoy using.

"if he has max stats"...

Umm...see,you're a nintendo rep...so you face more loser mewtwo's then pro mewtwo's..and are de-sensitized to the pro mewtwo,and think its easy as cheese to beat one....with your digging AND quaking sandslash maybe? e.e;


Apophis:come to one of my tour dates, and ill show you all about pokemon.

Uhh...no..thats OK...i don't to need to be "shown" anything.

Apophis:its all about training. it has nothing to do with "cheapness". its all about you guys being too lazy to: 1. learn to use mewtwo effectively. or 2. train a well balanced team thats not just built to "counter" mewtwo, but to defeat an entire team.

It IS all about training..and i will bring up the being a rep point again...you've faced so many loser mewtwo's you think the stuff that will be faced in the 4-way tourney will be those newbie mewtwo's...here's a hint...if anyone will be using a mewtwo,they wont be newbie mewtwo's.

"1)learn to use mewtwo effectivly"

Ummm......use a mewtwo effectively?you're...........joking.....right?

RIGHT??

*troubled look on his face*

Hmm...yea..i gotta learn to press those A buttons to select amnesia..then recover,and sweep 6 pokes.

Damn..i better get started...

2)"train a well balanced team thats not just built to "counter" mewtwo, but to defeat an entire team."

Yea...you got that from dreadite's pokemon team making theory.

And when there's so many different pokemon in this game...this theory is impossible...well..only possible to the best of trainers...and this isnt concerning movesets...but all out skills.

In g/s,this theory is nullified.

^ ^;;

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Enter Your Name Here
Farting Nudist
Member # 57

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posted 06-16-2000 06:35 PM      Profile for Enter Your Name Here   Email Enter Your Name Here   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:
Its not about beating the mewtwo.Thats not the hardest thing in the world.There ARE counters for it i admit..but it deprives you from using a full SIX POKEMON TEAM of the pokes you will enjoy using.


But some people enjoy using Mewtwo. Like Dread, who thinks he's kawaii. 8-)

Anyway, Argo, a Mewtwo WILL NOT sweep 6 pokemon if you play right. If you don't kill it fast, you're gonna lose. All Mewtwo killing is about is speed-killing, or matching his stats via stat boosters (like with Toby).

I've said this tons of times, PLAY POKE CUP IF YOU HATE MEWTWO. In Prime Cup, he WILL BE USED. Whether you like it or not.

OK, maybe not in the tourney, because people are too weak to face one, but...

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"


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Rolken
Vulcan
Member # 7

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posted 06-16-2000 09:02 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Mewtwo should be allowed, regardless of cheapness.

If one side has Mewtwo and the other a killer, they both devoted a Pokémon to the cause. If your opponent has Mewtwo and you lack a killer, yer screwed. If you have a killer and he lacks a Mewtwo, he's equally screwed.

The argument about the necessity to use Mewtwo killers to defeat him leaves out the fact that they are universally effective; Mewtwo doesn't have to be the sole reason they occupy a spot on the team. Besides, something that has the oomph to roll over Mewtwo probably isn't going to be overwhelmed by something lesser unless type bonuses come into play.

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COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338

posted 06-16-2000 11:26 PM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What you all don't relize is that nintendo made this a fantasy game for ages 5-12(about)
an NOT for strategy. They put mewtwo in as a prize for winning the game, they weren't thinking to make it balance (obviously).
So of course you make him the best, and very cheap, so you can destroy anything, again this game was made for 5 year olds...

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...PIKA!,PIKA PIKA! ... So you say I am wrong, that you are not his human servent but his friend.. PIKA ... you are as pathetic as the rest...


From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 06-17-2000 03:20 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. K: As far as I'm concerned, there's no more debate (except about fiddling details) unless someone who actually doesn't believe Mewtwo is cheap joins the discussion.

Fanha: This is simply being unfair. You're just basically saying "those guys aren't real opponents; if there's nobody else we win because I don't think they're anything". That was downright bossy and rude.

It's not about winning.

What I'm saying is...show me the person who thinks Mewtwo isn't cheap.

Since the "Everyone gets one." argument is moot, this means "Show me the person who thinks Mewtwo is not far and away the best Pokemon."

I don't see that person here.

There are those who argue, for other reasons, that he should be allowed, but you have gone loopy arguing every tiny pointless little sentence everyone posts instead of looking at The Big Picture.

If you want to keep squabbling about pointless krap because you enjoy debate, that's fine with me, but since I have not seen anyone make the claim that Mewtwo is not far and away the best Pokemon, then there's really no argument.

Everyone agrees he's "cheap", or some other version of the word. "Unbalanced" or "overpowered" or whatever.

And I stand by my statement that anyone who claims that Mewtwo isn't cheap (or some equivalent word) is a total idiot.

Read the "Mathematics of Cheap" thread in the Azure Pokemon Center and tell me that a free 40 points in each stat over Number 2 is not cheap and I'll tell you to go seek medical attention for the damaged cranium of yours.

Just looking at how close the scores of everyone below #1 is shows clearly and obviously how cheap Mewtwo is.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Argo
Farting Nudist
Member # 49

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posted 06-17-2000 04:29 AM      Profile for Argo   Email Argo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fanha: No it isn't. If I had a kami 'trode, I wouldn't have any other Electrics on my team for obvious reasons. And he's not taking Slowbro any time soon. There aren't THAT many Electric Pokemon to chose from, as explained above. Not every team even fields an Electric.

First...i think someone hasnt heard of SUPPORT(KEY WORD) TRODE..

Meaning a support for your eclectric pokemon...he paralyzes,screeches IF HE CAN(dont try the supporting how easy it is to bet mewtwo argument,its bull)and he blows up.

Not all teams have a electric?

UTTER BULL...and you KNOW it.

Fanha: Like I said, show me a team that makes effective use of Venusaur and Victreebel. Haven't seen one yet. Starmie/Lapras is doubtful without STAB. And that's about all your "decent special with Thunderbolt" short of MewX. Jolteon is ONE counter, and a couple other Elecs I mentioned might be (though Magneton is VERY easy to counter considering he has no moveset variety short of confusion). And we're talking about being able to counter Slowbro with COMMON Pokemon, not obscure ones. Mewtwo can be countered by commons; can Slowbro? Chansey, MAYBE. It would be possible, but I can't say I'd know how that would go. Slowbro does more with Surf than Mewtwo with Psychic...

Havent seen a team making use of r-leafers?look harder.

i have only seen ONE bro survive my max special venusaur's leafs of wrath...it was on PBS,and he had told me he had used 5-ways.Thats right,ONE leaf=gone.Once you see bro,switch in.He can either amnesia or t-wave.RL will come EXTREMELY close to taking out...only morons will surf...they will pray for that small chance of full paralysis.The chances are on your side.

Oh yea...and guess what....slowbro...look at the name...SLOWbro....venusaur and vic are faster....

IT'S CALLED SLEEP POWDER....

Slowbro is sleep bait....cant say the same about M2,now can you?when they see egger they will switch out..who wants their mewtwo slept?

Starmie has T-wave to stall bro into bolting,not to mention light screen for excellent surf absorbtion.

lapras has confuse ray....i garuntee two bolts from a max special lappy can take bro out.

Venusaur is extremely common.
Jolteon is extremely common.
Zapdos is extremely common.
Starmie is extremely common.
Victreebel is extremely common.

Those are ONLY the common ones...

Fanha: We're comparing Mewtwo to Slowbro and finding similarities for the basic of a "double cheapness"...you seem to be helping US...

Ummm...no...stop trying to make bull arguments like this....we're discussing general cheapness.

Umm..you want mewtwo-slowbro comparison?sure..

-mewtwo learns amnesia
-slowbro learns amnesia
-mewtwo ties for second FASTEST pokemon out of 3
-slowbro ties for SLOWEST pokemon out of three
-mewtwo has highest special in the game
-slowbro has one of the lowest special in the game of full evo's
-mewtwo has 400+ hp
-slowbro has great hp,but not as great as m2
-mewtwo amnesia's to 999 in TWO turns
-slowbro amnesia's to 999 in THREE turns
-mewtwo has 318 attack
-slowbro has 248(58?) attack
-mewtwo learns recover
-slowbro learns.....rest
-mewtwo has the most resistant type in the game
-slowbro is weak to grass and electric,some of the most popular types in the game.
-mewtwo learns every TM element out of 50
-Slowbro cant benefit from physical attacks...that counts fighting,ground,and normal out.The only special he gets is fire,ice,water,psychic.

Enough comparison for you?

Fanha: *he makes it so easy!*

Mewtwo is good, but he is critically weak to a whole class of attacks: physical. *Especially* normal which is damn popular. Do you know how many Snorlax and Chansey, heck, Mew are out there? Exeggutor and Slowbro are also getting increasingly popular. Not to mention kamikazes who can learn huge physical attacks. How many Electrode are out there? Snorlax? Even Mew can destroy Mewtwo.

Easy to say,not easy to DO.

I hope you caught that that's you whole arguement except changing a couple names and putting Mewtwo instead of Slowbro. A couple might not be perfect, but it's a pretty good fit!

Uhm..you've been doing that lately...its not as great as a normal argument...i think you're run out.

e_e

Fanha: You're a lot more likely to run into anti-Mewtwos when coming out than anti-Slowbros. I thought even you could figure that. Mewtwo is in MUCH more immediate danger.

Umm..maybe in your corrupted-by-mewtwo meta game..but not in mine,and definatly not in the official internet meta game,called PBS.How can you assume everyone's metagame is full of mewtwo counters when people have hihg enough common sense and morality not to use him and just have fun?I thought even you can figure that out... e_e

Fanha: By definitions of cheapness applied to Mewtwo, if Mewtwo is cheap, Slowbro would be too. That's all we're saying, but some people want to stick themselves in that narrow ditch between dissing Mewtwo AND Slowbro...

No no no...do you realize what you're doing?

You're being OBLIVIOUS to mewtwo,and slowbro,and just thinking about the move Amnesia.

Amnesia itself is not cheap,are you saying Poliwrath is cheap?I will SCREAM if you DARE compare him to a mewtwo...

Fanha: We're measuring cheapness, not equality. And Slowbro would be concidered cheap if Mewtwo was; that's the point. And the fact with Mewtwo gone, Slowbro becomes just as cheap.

Read the latter Arguement...i am NOT repeating myself..

Fanha: Ah, but Pokemon like Mew don't need raw power to win. And with STAB, Slowbro can actually do MORE damage with Surf than a Mewtwo can do with ANY attack, including the infamous Psychic. So your statement is pretty much false, unless you consider natural power, but Slowbro has just as blatent a weakness as Mewtwo (if not a little better; Speed isn't as hard to handle even after you power up as Defense is, though it's a matter of perspective and situation). Just calling the arguement "rediculous" isn't the kind of thing I'd expect from you, Mr. K...you should at least realize that Slowbro is EASILY a HUGE powerhouse without Thunderbolt/Amnesia in general on Mewtwo as its main counter, especially considering the frightening reality that Surf does MORE damage than a Mewtwo can inflict with ANYTHING once pumped up. That's VERY scary...also considering it can KO Mew, its close compeditor, in one hit (I THINK...I know it CAN because I've seen it happen...I don't know if it's 100% though...).

Oh dear..surf if more powerful by 5 base damage...what a pathetic argument.How are you saying mewtwo is just as weak as mewtwo..its like saying:

"Pff...cats can fly...DUHH"

WITH A STRAIGHT face...thats bugging me...Do you not realize it...read the comparison i made to slowbro and mewtwo over and over,and bash your head into the wall a few times if that helps...whatever gets you going normally..

e_e

Oh dear..5 base damage...im so...frightened...you're not considering the factors of weaknesses of the actual two pokemon.It nullifies your horrifying 5 base damage by a mile long margin.

Fanha: Okay, I think that's one of the most outrageous statements I've heard so far. Moltres is weak to a major threat, Slowbro, and the other two only have basically ONE type of attack on each; their own type. Moltres is the same, only Fire and Flying and possibble Normal in its moveset; not a whole lot of dazzle; and Articuno has a slim Bubblebeam for Water, Ice, Flying, and Normal (but mediocre Attack); Zapdos has Electric, Flying, and Normal with a mediocre Attack (Rock/Ground anyone?). The plethoria of Flying weaknesses couldn't hurt their "Tank'y ness" much worse. Sure if EVERYTHING with "greatly increasing" powerups was stripped, they MIGHT have a chance...other than that I don't think they do on a good day...other than Zapdos as a possible Slowbro killer, but it can have Ice to deal with Zapdos. *oh geez, I might have to invent the word polymovoSlowbrophobia!*

First..whoever brough up moltres?

And...rock?

Guess what,a rock slide from rhydon doing the MAXIMUM damage is 249 hp off zappy...

he has enourmous special...earthquake resistance...heck..if you're so afraid of slide you can give him reflect...if you're afraid of ice,light screen...if you want all out power against both,DT/rest.

The great master dreadite himself,said Zapdos and Articuno would be number ONE after mewtwo is out of the picture.

e_e

And there are infinitly so many counters for slowbro...there is no such thing as a fear of them.

Mewtwo is another story,and dont try to deny it.

*whipes forehead*

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo


From: new york,NY,USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Enter Your Name Here
Farting Nudist
Member # 57

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posted 06-17-2000 12:12 PM      Profile for Enter Your Name Here   Email Enter Your Name Here   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's sad how Azure is supposed to have a group of the best trainers in the world, yet most ban Mewtwo because they can't take him down.

Sad, really.

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"


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Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 06-17-2000 12:57 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enter Your Name Here:
Sad, really.

Sad, my ass.

Don't pull that condescending krap with me.

Mewtwo is cheap. I can understand people who don't want to fight him because they want to have more fun playing.

Not everyone enjoys having the game revolve around a single species. If you don't mind it, that's fine with me, but it sure as Hell isn't "sad" if others don't like to play using an unbalanced Pokemon.

I know how to take down a Mewtwo, but I don't want to use a Mewtwo, Mew, Slowbro, Chansey, or whatever. I want to play with the team I like. That doesn't make me inept or stupid or "sad".

Games are a whole lot more fun IMO without Mewtwo. When your opponent doesn't have M2, you have to be prepared for anything and it's often surprising what other Pokemon they have.

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.

I don't think it's "sad" that some people want to use Mewtwo (or be assured of fighting him every battle). I totally understand why they'd want to. Just because they don't play the game the same way I do doesn't make them "sad".

Mmph.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Enter Your Name Here
Farting Nudist
Member # 57

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posted 06-17-2000 02:16 PM      Profile for Enter Your Name Here   Email Enter Your Name Here   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mewtwo is cheap. I can understand people who don't want to fight him because they want to have more fun playing.

For me, it's way more fun trying to take down pokemon stronger than mine.

It's just an opinion.

Not everyone enjoys having the game revolve around a single species. If you don't mind it, that's fine with me, but it sure as Hell isn't "sad" if others don't like to play using an unbalanced Pokemon.

By no means do I support Mewtwo use. I know the post got deleted in the voting thing because you just wanna have the vote results, but I say this to everyone: If the vote passes and Mewtwo is allowed, I won't take him. I feel I have something to prove.

I know how to take down a Mewtwo, but I don't want to use a Mewtwo, Mew, Slowbro, Chansey, or whatever. I want to play with the team I like. That doesn't make me inept or stupid or "sad".

Agreed, I'm training my own fun team with Pokemon I like. I'm not gonna use it for any major competition or anything.

Games are a whole lot more fun IMO without Mewtwo. When your opponent doesn't have M2, you have to be prepared for anything and it's often surprising what other Pokemon they have.

This is simply your opinion, and I don't want to deny you of that, but Mewtwo is only one pokemon. And even without Mewtwo, teams are filled with the same old stuff. Starmie, Slowbro, Exeggutor, you know the stuff I'm talking about.

I don't think it's "sad" that some people want to use Mewtwo (or be assured of fighting him every battle). I totally understand why they'd want to. Just because they don't play the game the same way I do doesn't make them "sad".

Oh, I understand why they wouldn't want their opponents to use Mewtwo. They want things to be balanced.

That's what Poke Cup is for.

And if I get one reply telling me that they don't play Poke because of the level divide, that's their opinion. It make make it "unbalanced" a little bit, but certainly 5 levels is the 50-55 range is less unbalanced than Mewtwo. It's not like Pika Cup, where the level difference can overcome stat weaknesses (type weaknesses are as much a problem as ever in Pika, despite the level divide. Unless the Gyara can OHKO, A L15 Pikachu will almost always beat a L20 Gyarados.). Even with the level divide, Poke is probably the most balanced cup.

Prime Cup was created simply for the use of Mewtwo and the people who like killing Mewtwo without their own. Poke Cup was the cup created for people who don't wanna deal with Mewtwo.

Maybe we can establish some unofficial L69 cup or something, so Mewtwo doesn't exist and we have no level difference. Meh.

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"


Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cpt_Carnage
Farting Nudist
Member # 466

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posted 06-17-2000 03:24 PM      Profile for Cpt_Carnage   Author's Homepage   Email Cpt_Carnage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On the note of cheapness what do you think of this team?

Dragonite
Mewtwo
Articuno
Zapdos
Another Mewtwo!
Mew

The guy who has this config says he is a very skillful trainer and uses cleverly thought out tactics... like what? - click the button labelled Amnesia twice - button labeled psychic repeatedly after that?

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ICQ# 70919600
Member of MeWtWo SuX
Master of Dragon Pokemon
Slayer of Bulbasaurs, Clefairies and Onixs
:)
This will have to do for a sig' pic'


From: Depths of hell (England) | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
abz1986
Farting Nudist
Member # 150

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posted 06-17-2000 06:56 PM      Profile for abz1986   Author's Homepage   Email abz1986   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Prime Cup was created simply for the use of Mewtwo and the people who like killing Mewtwo without their own. Poke Cup was the cup created for people who don't wanna deal with Mewtwo.

- What the fu--? Thats not what prime cup is made for! Prime Cup was made for the soul purpose of using level 100 pokemon and battling it all out. Sure, there is this Mewtwo involved, but if you're battling with your friends, you can ban Mew/two. Besides, the Pokecup dosesn't ban Mewtwo(does it?... the rulebook just says it bans Mew). You can still catch 100+ mewtwos and candy them to Level 50.

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"And sometimes you see things that aren't there (Like what?)
Like fat woman in G-strings with orange hair
(Mr. Shady what's a G-string?) It's yarn Claire
Women stick 'em up their behinds, go out and wear 'em"

--"The Kids" by Eminem


From: Overland Park, KS, USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Acey
Farting Nudist
Member # 309

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posted 06-17-2000 07:24 PM      Profile for Acey   Author's Homepage   Email Acey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fanha: As I said last night, I'm dropping this arguement. Argo is making quite impartial comparisons that don't make sense, and some other people are just resorting to calling others idiots and cussing. It's sad how such intelligent people can degenerate. Anyhow it's no use to argue with some people who only see one half of the picture, and others who don't wish to even hear arguements they label rediculous without seeing if there is any merit to them.

OMG! O_O. No offence Fanha, but you are the biggest hypocrite I have ever had the pleasure of debating with on the net. And trust me, I've been in a *lot* of debates.

Now, I'm not gonna respond to your latest big post because every single little thing in it was proved to null in my last one. It seems you just want to ignore logic or something.

Anyways, I know why you're dropping the argument. It's because you know you're clinging to straws and want to exit gracefully. That I understand.

By the way, drop the Slowbro is cheap argument since Mewtwo is cheap. Comparisons that don't make any sense? *You're* the one who compared Slowbro to Mewtwo in the first place! And you back up your opinion with no facts. What little facts you do try to use are way too situational and I've debunked every single one. Why don't you look at Argo's list again until it does start to make sense? I won't bother repeating myself or him when you can just scroll back.

By the way if you recycle the same old rubbish about "everyone gets a Mewtwo therefore it's not cheap" it's not worth my time to debate with you any longer.

Seeyas

PS I don't label your argument ridiculous without considering it. I *have* considered it. And I still believe you're wrong. Anyone with an objective view would be able to see it. (that is with no Mewtwo favoritism or even anti-Mewtwo opinions). The numbers and types speak for themselves. Numbers and types are *facts*. The facts prove you wrong.

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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From: AUS | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged


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