Let's apply these to Tobybro.

Tobybro's moveset is pretty darn similar to the general Mewtwo's; Amnesia, a Special move to use with it, Rest or Recover, and another attack or T-wave. Kinda suspicious.

Tobybro counters are usually limited to T-bolt or Razor Leaf, or the other counters for Mewtwo. Since very few get Razor Leaf (fewer than those who get T-wave...hmm) and T-bolt is moot with Amnesia, T-bolters will have to be up and going to KO Slowbro before he's charged. T-wave on Tobybro, unless it misses, will hamper that further. Rest also eliminates existing damage after Tobybro's charged; unless a T-bolter's in front, yer in trouble. After that, the only choice is Razor Leaf, which only goes to barely useful Pokémon anyway. Sounds like Mewtwo.

Tobybro's (and usually Mewtwo's) Attack is irrelevant; however, his Speed and Special are considerably lower than Mewtwo's. T-wave makes Speed irrelevant, and Amnesia makes Special irrelevant after the first turn or two.

So, unless a Venusaur or something similar is up against you (Tobybro-killer), Tobybro will roll over the opposition with the ease of Mewtwo. If he's supported with other heavy hitters, as with TeeJay's use of Mewtwo, he's pretty hard to trample. The only real detriment Tobybro has is the Water type of him and his Surf.

So why isn't Tobybro cheap?

I'm flattered for using my Mewtwo method, but don't give me credit cause it is pretty popular.

Great arguement, Rolken!

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Insert sig here.

-You hafta Amnesia 3 times, not 2.
-If you wanna be faster, you gotta blow a turn for T-wave.
-The water-type is a giant glaring weakness. One CritHit from a thunderbolt will be the end of Toby, almost every time.
-A CritHit of anything won't kill Mewtwo in one hit unless it's a highly powerful physical attack.
-A Jolteon w/ Focus Energy = usually Toby's doom.
-You could use a Lapras with this moveset: Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray, DT, Rest. It doesn't get any more anti-toby than that (unless said Toby has Psychic).

Believe me Rolken, it is quite simple to counter a Toby. With that Lapras, just keep using bolt until you CritHit, and it's over. ANYTIME T-BOLT/THUNDER LANDS A CRITHIT, TOBY'S A GONER. And if you keep trying to hit it, it'll eventually happen.

That's the difference. (Stolen from cheesy "thetruth" commercial)

-Ah, yes, but if you Amnesia twice and use SURF, with the 1.5 type bonus, that will be more than enough damage. I can write the battle damage formula out for you if you like.

-When you blow a turn for T-wave, you can expect at least one full paraysis in the next three turns usually. This makes up for the blown turn, does it not?

-Yes, but how often will the T-bolt crit hit? Especially if the T-bolt user wasn't out at the start, Toby will have him on the ground in a turn or two. You're relying on more luck than the above T-wave statement.

-Which is exactly why you don't rely on critical hits.

-A Toby + Amnesia = One hit kill to any Jolteon.

-That Lapras wouldn't do too well. Without the type bonus, T-bolt won't kill in a hit. Also, I tend to keep Psychic on Toby anyway.

Believe me StarCaliber, it's quite easy to counter a Mewtwo. With a Mew, just Swords Dance up and blast him. With a Toby, just Amnesia/T-wave and blast him.

You keep relying on a critical hit. Is that the best you can think of? Odds are pretty slim, especially when said Toby is hitting you with a fatal/near-fatal move every turn. You won't have many chances for a crit hit.

Ya see? That's the similarity.

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Insert sig here.

And where do you keep getting the idea that all these people are going to just let TobyBro power up for free? It takes long enough to set one up that if it gets loose and "unstoppable," then the opponent gets what they deserve. And high special water pokemon can take Toby to school.

Mr. K, could you back me up on this one? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that TeeJay has much of an argument here.

because according to your recent Whore...uh I mean, War Story, you are a better trainer than Biffster, so the Toby killing won't affect you in any way, shape, or form.

I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean... Sounds like a poor slam to me.

And where do you keep getting the idea that all these people are going to just let TobyBro power up for free?

The same place you get the idea you will get a seemingly abundant supply of critical hits, except I have the notion that the right Pokemon isn't always out, that's a turn in itself to switch.

Also, the same place all you people think that Mewtwo can power up without getting maimed in the process.

If you're gonna call Mr. K, then, Fanha, Fish, Rolken, and everyone else, can you back me up on this? Is StarCaliber at his wit's end or does he have an argument here?

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Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com

Tobybro has weaknesses a regular, non-Tobybro-killing team is likely to have. (Who has a team without Thunderbolt?)

You still need to bring specific anti-Mewtwo members on board to deal with Mewtwo.

You don't HAVE to do anything.
A Special of +-500, after 1 Amnesia, negates type bonuses, and is higher than any other natural Special. 750 is high enough to get rid of anything else that doesn't have Amnesia, barring CH. But Critical Hits will doom more than just Tobybro, and a lot more easily.

-If you wanna be faster, you gotta blow a turn for T-wave.

Which is immediately compensated for by the extra attack you get before your opponent the next turn. It's like moving the Attack menu up before you attack instead of after, and getting a free attack immediately.

-The water-type is a giant glaring weakness. One CritHit from a thunderbolt will be the end of Toby, almost every time.

Sure, almost every time you GET it. If not, just Rest away. If it leaves him with a sliver of life left, Rest away. That's a pretty slim margin, and you only get 15 T-bolts.

-A CritHit of anything won't kill Mewtwo in one hit unless it's a highly powerful physical attack.

A Crit Hit of anything won't kill Tobybro in one hit unless it's a T-bolt or Razor Leaf.

-A Jolteon w/ Focus Energy = usually Toby's doom.

A Chansey w/ Double Team = usually Mewtwo's doom. You're also assuming Stadium.

-You could use a Lapras with this moveset: Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray, DT, Rest. It doesn't get any more anti-toby than that (unless said Toby has Psychic).

You could use a Chansey with this moveset: Double Team, T-wave, Softboiled, Seismic Toss. It doesn't get any more anti-Mewtwo than that (unless said Mewtwo has Swift)

Believe me Rolken, it is quite simple to counter a Toby. With that Lapras, just keep using bolt until you CritHit, and it's over. ANYTIME T-BOLT/THUNDER LANDS A CRITHIT, TOBY'S A GONER. And if you keep trying to hit it, it'll eventually happen.

Except with the slight annoyance of fainting. It is also quite simple to counter a Mewtwo, when you know how to do it.

That's the difference.

Oh, really.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TeeJay:
Um, StarCaliber, I have some serious trouble endorsing these arguments.

-Ah, yes, but if you Amnesia twice and use SURF, with the 1.5 type bonus, that will be more than enough damage. I can write the battle damage formula out for you if you like.

yes, it won't do much. Especially with doubleteam up.

-When you blow a turn for T-wave, you can expect at least one full paraysis in the next three turns usually. This makes up for the blown turn, does it not?
lapras tbolts. You're around halfway dead!
you t-wave,
you amnesia.
he t-bolts.
you rest. Now, he's playing against a sleeping poke, with with minimal defense. Toby's a goner, unless you're lucky.
-Yes, but how often will the T-bolt crit hit? Especially if the T-bolt user wasn't out at the start, Toby will have him on the ground in a turn or two. You're relying on more luck than the above T-wave statement.

-Which is exactly why you don't rely on critical hits.

you don't rely on your opponent NOT getting a critical hit. Believe me, this is a fatal mistake.

-A Toby + Amnesia = One hit kill to any Jolteon.
pff, how long will amnesia take to get set up again?
-That Lapras wouldn't do too well. Without the type bonus, T-bolt won't kill in a hit. Also, I tend to keep Psychic on Toby anyway.

there's always confuse ray...

Believe me StarCaliber, it's quite easy to counter a Mewtwo. With a Mew, just Swords Dance up and blast him. With a Toby, just Amnesia/T-wave and blast him.

You keep relying on a critical hit. Is that the best you can think of? Odds are pretty slim, especially when said Toby is hitting you with a fatal/near-fatal move every turn. You won't have many chances for a crit hit.

Ya see? That's the similarity.

whatever, you're scary.

---

quote:

---

(originally posted by TeeJay)

-When you blow a turn for T-wave, you can expect at least one full paraysis in the next three turns usually. This makes up for the blown turn, does it not?

-Which is exactly why you don't rely on critical hits.

---

Jolteon has a better Critical hit rate than T-wave's paralysis rate, even -without- focus energy. So you're depending on your opponent being paralyzed, but you aren't counting on a Critical hit? That doesn't sound right to me.

Also, there are plenty of differences between Slowbro and Mewtwo:

-Mewtwo has 358 speed. Slowbro has a 158 speed. Even if you use T-wave, most electrics ALSO have it. So there goes your speed advantage. You'll have to rest away the Paralyzation, which leads me to...

-Mewtwo has recover. Slowbro has Rest. Mewtwo can recharge in 1-2 turns, but Slowbro has to spend THREE turns asleep to regain life. That leaves him WIDE open for a critical hit.

-Mewtwo has a weakness to bug. Slowbro has weaknesses to Electric, Grass, and bug. It's easy to jump on a Slowbro's weaknesses before he sets anything up, especially thanks to his pathetic speed rating.

-Haze murders Slowbro. Mewtwo can still be deadly AFTER being hazed. Especially since he can learn moves that are super-effective to every hazer in the game.

-Mewtwo doesn't need Amnesia or ThunderWave to be effecive. Slowbro depends on both of them.

I think I've covered all the bases here. I had to type this in a rush, though, so I might have missed something.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
Wha? T-wave hits 99% of the time or something...Jolteon's CH rate is less than 1/2. And keep in mind a Mew is only slightly less likely to CH with Explosion on Mewtwo...and Mew is a much more solid opponent.
[/B]

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Jolteon Critical hits 25.9% of the time. T-wave Paralyzes 25% of the time. I'm not talking about the accuracy of thunder wave hitting, I'm talking about the amount of times your opponent gets "fully paralyzed". And Mew only gets 1 chance to explode. Jolteon will get off plenty of thunderbolts, which gives him more than enough time to CH.

And crap...I don't have enough time to reply to the rest. >_< I'll get to it tomorrow.

Where do you get the idea you should let Mewtwo power up for free?

(all font in bold was originally posted by TeeJay)

I don't even use T-wave normally; I use Double Team instead. Works miracles.

DT takes even LONGER to set up, especially now that Slowbro will definately be slower. That gives even more time for a CH. I did the math on this a while ago when deciding on whether to use DT on Slowbro or not. But if you're up against a somewhat fast electric, the odds of them getting a CH by the time you DT up is very high. I think it was about 80% or something like that. And I didn't even factor in Amnesia and Rest, which gives your opponent even MORE time to CH.

Ah, but if the opponent is paralyzed and Slowbro is not, he gains another turn advantage in that time. Plus it restores ALL health, and cures status effects, and he cannot be afflicted with other status effects during that time.

Does he gain another turn? Again, you're relying on something that happens only 1/4 times to happen once out of 3 times. And the odds are Slowbro will be hit by a CH by the time he's done resting.

But Mewtwo has a stat weakness: Defense. This makes him more vulnerable to ALL physical attacks, no matter what type. Slowbro has a high Defense, so he doesn't have that problem.

Slowbro also has a stat weakness: Speed. By the time Slowbro gets set up, his opponent will be all over him like white on rice.

I agree, Haze is a problem. But since Hazers can't build up, you can simply switch out Slowbro. Plus they'll cure status effects. Also, switch out to a paralyzed guy when they Haze for free recovery and switching without the free hit!

I don't see this as too much of a loss here. The hazers' job is to take away Slowbro's stat-enhancers. By switching out, he's done his job. Now you'll have to get Slowbro set up again, and that gives you a fresh chance to CH his slow ass.

Me: -Mewtwo doesn't need Amnesia or ThunderWave to be effecive. Slowbro depends on both of them.

You said a bunch of stuff after this, but it wasn't about what we're debating about. We're talking about Slowbro's problems here, not Mewtwos.

Mewtwo with Amnesia is the ONLY true way to have a "cheap sweeper" Mewtwo. If you think Mewtwo without Amnesia is super-cheap, you're WAY overrating him (as if you weren't already).

I never said he was super-cheap without amnesia, but he can STILL kick ass without it. What's a slowbro without Amnesia? Pure crap. Plain and simple. Yet a mewtwo without amnesia is still one of the best pokemon in the game. Probably still THE best.

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Insert sig here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
Is Jolteon your whole arguement? If that's all you've got, you've screwed yourself with your own "I shouldn't be forced to have a Pokemon" arguement. I can give you 20 ways to stop a Mewtwo, but you can barely give me 4 to stop a Slowbro. And plus, I can't think of a Jolteon that could possibly handle a Golem/Rhydon; just switch to one of those and even if Jolteon switches out it gets a free hit. And if Slowbro is brought out late, chances are, if the player has designed their team well, the Jolteon is lured out and gone.

It's not just Jolteon, I simply used him as an example. ANY electric type can take on a Slowbro. Also, you're really starting to divert the debate here. I chose the Jolteon example for one reason: to show you that you can't depend on one thing happening and another NOT happening, even though they have the same odds.

Also, if you design your team well, you can destroy your opponent's Mewtwo-killers the same way you destroy an Electric type.

Mewtwo, on the other hand, is completely open to any kind of physical assault those first few turns; the kami-'trode/finisher combo only gives him a single attack, and that's chosen before he's even paralyzed, so it's likely to be a powerup attack.

Waitaminute. You just said how easy it is to counter a Jolteon by switching to a Rhydon/Golem. What makes you think that a kami-trode won't be handled the same way? See, again you rely on one thing happening and another NOT happening, even though they have the same odds. And if electrode goes boom, he'll be COMPLETELY wasted. Jolteon just wastes 1 turn.

Slowbro, on the other hand, normally won't warrent such an assault, especially if the opponent is also holding back a Mewtwo, so you'll have much more trouble with him.

What? Holding back a Mewtwo is totally irrelivent to what we're talking about. All it takes to warrant assult a Slowbro is a friggin Electric type. Keep using Thunderbolt, and you'll be just fine. Unless you're unlucky.

And once again, the only one who could really pull this off is Jolteon, so your former arguement kills your current one as stated before. Electrode doesn't have a high enough Special, and the others don't have enough speed to CH often enough. If CHs and Jolteons are your whole case, you're not only forcing a Pokemon on your team JUST TO TAKE OUT ONE OTHER, but you're also basing the whole thing on luck. Sound like an echo here? That's because this is your own arguement coming back to haunt you.

Again, most Electric types can pull this off. Jolteon was an example. And even the slow ones can CH if given the chance. And I didn't say using CH's were the only way to kill a Slowbro. Venusaur, Victreebel, Chansey, and every decent electric type in the game can take out a Slowbro. Hell, even a Starmie or Lapras with thunderbolt can take one out. Hell, pretty much ANYTHING with a decent special and thunderbolt can take one out.

...if your Electric is still alive by the time Slowbro comes back out.

Oh, but what if your mewtwo-killers are dead by the time Mewtwo comes out? You went on and on about how easily Mewtwo can be killed by whatever, yet you never took the fact that your Mewtwo-killers can be dead by the time Mewtwo comes out. You just went against your OWN argument that time.

Either they're both cheap, or neither are.

Why is this? Mewtwo is better in ALL facets besides defense. And hell, even that can be made up for. I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about anymore, really.

A Mewtwo without Amnesia is not much in my book. He suddenly gains a plethoria of new weaknesses, and he's not really nearly "cheap". Mew with Swords Dance; 'Nuff said.

First off, this wasn't my point. My point was that Mewtwo can be good without Amnesia, and Slowbro is pure CRAP without it. They're in completely different leagues. A Mew with Swords dance can ALSO take on a Slowbro without Amnesia.

[/B]

---

Well ... go see the Great Dreamer's war story and you'll see just how effective Slowbro was ...

Zapdos with Flash ... Venusaur ...

Slowbro is good, but he is critically weak to 2 whole types. *Especially* electric which is damn popular. Do you know how many Jolteons and Zapdos's, heck, Raichu are out there? Venusaur is also getting increasingly popular. Not to mention other water types which can learn electric attacks. How many Starmie are out there? Lapras? Even Mew can destroy Toby.

Also remember that when calculating the chances of a critical hit, the probabilities are *added* every time an attack is launched.

Let's say Jolteon's CH rate is 25%. 2 turns = 50%, 3 turns = 75%, 4 turns = 100%

There is at least one CH in 4 turns. 4 turns? Isn't that the time Toby needs to power up? But in practise, I doubt Toby would get past 2 or 3 turns against a powerful attack already super effective against it.

And if you use Double Team, that means Toby always goes last. Turn 1: Boom, over half life gone. Turn 2: One Double Team is not enough so its dead.

You just can't try to power up when there is a Pokemon there that is strong against it. This completely negates the assertion that its as powerful/cheap as Mewtwo.

Neways, I posted a whole bunch of Tobybro counters in the Mewtwo thread, so if you want more just go there.

Cyas!

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*** Ace ***

Let's say Jolteon's CH rate is 25%. 2 turns = 50%, 3 turns = 75%, 4 turns = 100%

Um, no. They chances are not added, rather, the chance of NOT critical-ing are multiplied and subtracted from one to figure out the chances of hitting over a period of time. If that wasn't clear enough:
Jolteon's Crit rate = 25%
Chance of hitting over a 1 attack period = 25% (100%-75%)
"" 2 "" = 43.75%(100%-75%^2)
"" 3 "" = 57.8125%(100%-75%^2)
and so on.

I had to figure this out on my own, but trust me... this is correct. Helpful too in battle it is. ^_^

*edits message*

I also should tell you, that it is very likely to get a critical hit on the 3rd, or maybe even second turn of t-bolting. This follows up with your data, just thought I'd clarify that!
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AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acey:
Tobybro worship?

Well ... go see the Great Dreamer's war story and you'll see just how effective Slowbro was ...

---

Exactly.

It's amazing; people were hailing Tobybro as Wintermute's great triumph before this post, and now everyone's bent on demoting it.

Now, I think that you're lying to yourselves. There should be no argument here, and the more support for Mewtwo being the same as Slowbro, the less I take opinions of Mewtwo supporters seriously. Come on, you guys. Think of something better than attacking Slowbro.

To Anyone who agrees with me that this is crap:
Just quit posting under this topic. This is flat-out ridiculous IMO. Let them argue with themselves.

I'm sure Mr. K would agree with me (at least a little bit).

I don't get your logic ... back from my probability stage of maths, I think I recall it as adding.

It makes sense. If Jolt's chances of critical hitting are 25% that means he has a 1 in 4 chance of CH right?

Well, in 4 turns that means he gets at least 1 CH right?

Therefore to get at least one CH in 4 turns the probability is 100%.

1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 1.

This is not the same as calculating a CH for every turn, then that would be multiplying.

I'm not sure how you got your formula, though if you've done probability in maths recently and can look it up in a textbook, I'll bow to your greater knowledge ^_^. It's been *years* since I've done probability maths after all and I might be doing something wrong.

But anyways, StarCaliber has the right idea in that its pure crap to argue whether TobyBro is as good or better than Mewtwo. The answer is obvious and those arguing for it just don't want to lose the debate no matter how far out the premise is (myself I will concede defeat in the face of overwhelming odds).

So I'll stop now. Though I'm greatly interested in probability formulas and where exactly you got your one, AtomicMew ... was it from a maths book?

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*** Ace ***

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acey:
I don't get your logic ... back from my probability stage of maths, I think I recall it as adding.

It makes sense. If Jolt's chances of critical hitting are 25% that means he has a 1 in 4 chance of CH right?

Well, in 4 turns that means he gets at least 1 CH right?

Therefore to get at least one CH in 4 turns the probability is 100%.

1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 1.

---

I think I recall it as multiplying.

3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 = 31.6% chance of no CH (or no Paralyzation).

Does that mean the probability of hurting yourself in confusion is also 1 in two turns, since 1/2 + 1/2 = 1?

And I never said that Mewtwo wasn't cheap, or that I supported him. It's just that if we were to remove him from the game, a new champion would arise.

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

10010110 because the grouping [10][01][01][10] has one of each.

However, if we regroup it 1][00][10][11][0 we find it isn't valid after all.

So, if we use adding to determine probability, the only valid Confusion pattern is

0101010101...
or
1010101010...

which obviously isn't the truth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acey:
But anyways, StarCaliber has the right idea in that its pure crap to argue whether TobyBro is as good or better than Mewtwo.

---

What that equation of yours represents is, the pobability of NOT critical hitting. Trust me, you have to subtract it from 1.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AtomicMew:
Rolken:[b]3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 = 31.6% chance of no CH (or no Paralyzation).
I don't think so. That's WAY too low.
3/4 represents the chances of NOT critical-ing.
[/B]

---

That's...exactly what I said.

31.6% chance of no CH

Yeah, it's find the probability of the other thing happening in a row and then minus it from one. That makes sense ^_^. I think I got mixed up with some other formula that involves adding in Permutations and Combinations ...

Oh well, I'm sure no one here likes discussing maths (we can do that at school) so I'll stop now. Thanks for setting me straight though.

Cyas!

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*** Ace ***

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rolken:
And I never said that Mewtwo wasn't cheap, or that I supported him. It's just that if we were to remove him from the game, a new champion would arise.

---

I don't think that's true.

Things are pretty evenly matched once you slice Mewtwo off the top. There's no clear #2. Could be Mew (pure Psychic), could be Slowbro (Amnesia), could be a number of other tough guys.

But none of those guys approach Mewtwo in raw power, which is exactly what makes Mewtwo cheap.

Mr. K...we were just having this debate about who would be cheapest if mewtwo was out of the picture..over AIM.

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

Rolken: sorry, I didn't read your post correctly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Argo:
Could be zapdos....or Articuno...for their Tank'y ness....

---

Nah, their types leave them vulnerable to plenty of stuff.

Mew would probably be the strongest contender.

Witness:

Mr. K: Things are pretty evenly matched once you slice Mewtwo off the top. There's no clear #2. Could be Mew (pure Psychic), could be Slowbro (Amnesia), could be a number of other tough guys.

Fanha: Not really. Guys with Amnesia (especially Slowbro with STAB) reign supreme still, and now Mewtwo with T-bolt can't check Slowbro. Mew still retains its place, and probably gains a LOT of ground, so you've got basically two (possibly three) "power Pokemon": Slowbro, Mew (he's still a "top Pokemon" and on Mewtwo's ground except in Attack instead of Special IMHO especially with SO much moore to offer), and POSSIBLY Snorlax with Amnesia. It's still only a couple guys being powerhouses. You could skim them off, then you'd end up with problems with other Amnesiacs like Poliwrath and Golduck and SDers.

OK, so you deny that #2 is up in the air. Then you list Mew, Slowbro, Snorlax, and I'd throw in Zapdos. You have now shown, by your own admission, that #2 is not set in stone.

But #1 is.

Do you deny that Mewtwo is not clearly the best Pokemon?

If so, I have nothing more to say to you, because that's so totally stupid that it's not even worth a response. It's like arguing that 1+1 does not equal 2.

You can take that argument for a philosophical spin if you want to, but you're just being annoying if you do. And you're doing it on purpose.

The rest of your argument is just smoke.

You claim "Amnesia" could be considered cheap.

OK, Mewtwo learns Amnesia. Mewtwo has the best stats. Mewtwo has the best type.

He is the best, by a mile.

That's it.

Case closed.

What's your fucking problem?

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

What really confuses me is that it seems like some people here don't want to use Mewtwo if he's cheap; but rather than stop using him, they try to prove that he's not cheap.

Of course, 'cheap' is an irrelevant term and has no effect on how effective Mewtwo is. He obviously is quite effective, though. THAT is why he's cheap. Because he's widely effective. Plain and simple. Others with lesser degrees of effectiveness also contain lesser degrees of cheapness.

quote:

---

What really confuses me is that it seems like some people here don't want to use Mewtwo if he's cheap; but rather than stop using him, they try to prove that he's not cheap.

---

- I agree, so what if Mewtwo's cheap? Its not like you can't use it or something.

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"And sometimes you see things that aren't there (Like what?)
Like fat woman in G-strings with orange hair
(Mr. Shady what's a G-string?) It's yarn Claire
Women stick 'em up their behinds, go out and wear 'em"

Now, I'll define cheap again for those people who forgot. No wait, why should I define it when there is a nice place called, "http://www.dictionary.com" ?

cheap (chp)
adj. cheap·er, cheap·est.

Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive.
Charging low prices: a cheap restaurant.

Obtainable at a low rate of interest. Used especially of money.
Devalued, as in buying power: cheap dollars.
Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.
Of or considered of small value: in wartime, when life was cheap.
Of poor quality; inferior: a cheap toy.
Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
Stingy; miserly.

Now, I'll point out the most relevant that I see, "Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs."

I think you'll all agree that by using Mewtwo you make the victory much easier than if you didn't have him. Little effort. Cheap Victory ...

Of course, "worthy of no respect, contemptible" is a startling good description too *grin*.

Well, gotta go to church now ^_*

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*** Ace ***