Someone cancel the stupid pill perscription. Mewtwo's defense is, at worst, over par. But you always seem to forget that it has *Barrier*. I'll say that again for the stupid ones. *Barrier* . Once more so that you remember. *Barrier*. M2's defense goes through the roof with *barrier* and coupled with *recover* he is definately cheap.

I've heard some people call him "unbalanced" well, that is a good point. I respect that opinion. But let me say this: If there was a wrestling move that was "Unbalanced" and you had to use it every time just to win because you knew the opponent would? I have to say that that would take the fun out of wrestling. Or boxing. Or any sport at all. Heck, things like that are *banned* from sports! Killer barely beatable combo's are *banned* from Magic! Why? Because it's *bad sportsmanship*. That's what Mewtwo is. Un-sportsmanly.

PS: I have made an extremely good point in this topic and I have, quite frankly, negated all pro-mewtwo arguments into nothing more than uncivilized overstated rationalizations, which, by the way, are all pathetic.

I will hold nothing against you if you are still a Pro-Mewtwo-ist, but your argument will now look very silly, and be unrespected, that's all. :P

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Project: Metronome

Where clever phrases worded are not properly!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gyarados Rage:
...if you are still a Pro-Mewtwo-ist, but your argument will now look very silly, and be unrespected, that's all.

---

That isn't the entire argument. There are many arguments you haven't covered, therefore, you look very silly. And you say that it is barely unbeatable and sports ban this sort of thing. I'm gonna tell you something.

Quoted from the Rush Limbaugh show earlier this morning, or to my best memory.

"Tiger Woods, who we all know won the U.S. Open yesterday by an unimaginable margin of 15 points, tied the lowest U.S. Open score in history of 292 in 72 holes.

PGA officials and men from the media are now actually trying to "Tiger-proof" the golf tournaments. They will make holes specifically designed that Tiger will have trouble with, and we all know Tiger's temper, once he messes up a little, he loses it all.

Isn't this incredible, ladies and gentlemen, that they are so afraid of Tiger pulling away with all the titles that they resort to this low form of keeping Tiger away instead of actually practicing harder to beat him?"

Tiger Woods = Mewtwo
PGA officials = Anti-Mewtwo
Future tournaments = Interboard battle and beyond.

There, TeeJay has proven his point that basically describes this entire chain of events and is actually pretty similar to my story above.

Things people will say to counter my post:

"TeeJay, I thought you quit the debate?"

Yeah, but I wanted to say this really bad.

"TeeJay, why the heck were you listening to Rush Limbaugh?"

I was in my dad's car.

"Yeah, but people can practice to get better to beat Tiger."

True, but they don't seem to be taking that honorable step. And neither are the anti-Mewtwo people.

Assorted insults

Grow up.

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"It's a revolving door of Pokémon!"

TeeJay
ICQ: 13724101
AIM: daBIGTom
e-mail: dabigtom@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by TeeJay (edited 06-20-2000).]

Tiger Woods does not have the maximum possible golf skill attainable in the universe. Mewtwo has the maximum possible stats attainable.

Try as Pikachu might, he'll never be able to have a 400 Special, Amnesia, or turn himself Psychic.

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"It's a revolving door of Pokémon!"

quote:

---

[b]
If you can't admit that a Pokemon with only one attack is WAY too limited, you will look very silly, and be unrespected (just showing you what it sounds like).
[/b[

---

Uh, ok. So what about Tobybro? And Grep? They are very limited aren't they. Always having trouble beating the opponent? Uh, yeah whatever...

------------------
Mew Dude

Like Mr. K once said, you people are missing the BIG PICTURE.

Mewtwo's stats excel in every aspect unless you complain about Defense, which is a pretty crappy argument. It has the best type, Psychic, and the best moves on top of that.

Mewtwo is SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than any other Pokémon. The only area in which it isn't through the roof is Defense, and that's still pretty damn high.

And for every Pokémon that can reliably take down Mewtwo, there are two or three or four or more that can take out any other Pokémon you choose.

You idiots are missing the forest for the trees.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
Special is the only stat that's "unattainable", and Amnesia can match it, even with Slowbro...

---

There's nothing Slowbro can do to get to max before Mewtwo. There's no way a Slowbro can have more Special, out of the box. And Mewtwo can always get there faster, because not only does it always go first, it only takes 2 uses of Amnesia.

But all of that is the sort of pointless debate you specialize in. Yes, there is a counter for Mewtwo, but the point is, out of the box, Mewtwo is ready to kill.

Why do you persist with these arguments that have no relevance?

quote:

---

That has nothing to do with Prime Cup...

---

OK, how about try as Mew/Dragonite/Moltres/Zapdos/ANYONE ELSE might, they'll never have Mewtwo's stats?

Why must you argue every pointless little detail?

This is why I lose patience with you.

You argue to be combative, not to make a relevant point.

quote:

---

besides, we're talking about a whole team here, not one Pokemon.

---

No.

We are talking about one Pokemon, and why he is so much better than every other Pokemon in the game.

Stay focussed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
Special is the only stat that's "unattainable", and Amnesia can match it, even with Slowbro...

---

Polymovoslowbrophobia.

Defense is the only stat that's 'above average', and Barrier can send that up the wall too.

Twisted logic, bud.

------------------
"It's a revolving door of Pokémon!"

Slowbro's low CH rate ensures you won't be losing that 999 special on most of your attacks; Mewtwo is more likely to falter.

Here's a new wrinkle. Interesting. I'm positive you didn't have this in mind when you formed your initial opinion, but I'll humor you, now that you've pulled it out of your ass...

...out of mass tested 100 attacks, who will do more pumped up: Mewtwo with Psychic, or Slowbro with Surf?

I thought you were done comparing Mewtwo and Slowbro.

OK, ignoring the the fact that Slowbro has weaknesses Mewtwo does not, we see that Mewtwo does indeed CH 19% more frequently than Slowbro. Of course, those CHs cut thru the opponent's Amnesia, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that somehow something without Amnesia is living thru Mewtwo's Amnesia'd Psychics.

When you take CHs into account, Mewtwo will only do 93% as much damage as Slowbro. (Remember that Slowbro's Special is only 64% of Mewtwo's, so that gives Mewtwo merely an 816 Special when CHing. Roughly.)

However, since Psychic lowers opponent Special roughly every third time it's used, let's say the opponent takes 1 out of every 6 turns (I'm being generous) to deal with this and I'll even be so generous as to not take into account the extra damage M2 will be causing while the Special is lowered, because I don't feel like doing the math.

Don't need to.

Slowbro's now only 89% as powerful as Mewtwo.

I've given you a number of gimmes and it still doesn't add up.

Are we done with this silly game now?

Do all of your own styles of testing mean nothing to you?

Do your homework next time.

Chopping down enough trees means no more forest.

You aren't chopping down trees, you're pulling weeds.

You already admit Slowbro has more weaknesses than Mewtwo, you claim you're not comparing the two, yet you do it almost every message. Stop it. Even you have said that Slowbro has no relevance to this debate.

Moving on, let's look at the 3 things you found so important to pick out of my message of Big Picture truths:

1. You argue that Mewtwo doesn't have absolutely the highest stat in every category. Yet, he has the highest average (by a longshot), and the highest Special and Speed, arguably the 2 most important stats in the game.

Why did you bother?

2. You took issue with my example that Pikachu will never have M2-level stats, which was obviously just a metaphor. You cannot, however, come up with another Pokemon that can match Mewtwo's stats.

Why did you bother?

3. You try to change the debate about whether or not Mewtwo is cheap by claiming that if several Pokemon gang up on him, they can defeat him. Well, yes, that's well known.

Why did you bother?

Again, if you're going to argue something, it should be relevant to the larger issue.

You might as well be bitching about my spelling or grammar, for all your arguments have to do with the actual issue.

Mewtwo is not "high above" everything else; he is just overall good.

He's, on the average, 40 points over every opponent in any given stat. No one comes close to his stats, tho everyone on the second tier is very close to each other. Even when you take the freaks like Cloyster and Chansey into account, they just can't add up to Mewtwo's near mastery of all stats save one.

Do not now make the argument that stats aren't everything, as it is irrelevant to the fact that you are wrong about this point, unless you want to debate whether or not 40 free points means "high above".

No, the game of Pokemon is about a team.

But this debate is about why a single Pokemon is better than every other single Pokemon. Stop trying to turn it into something else.

Now, all this nonsense aside, let's again look at the core issues. These are the only things that actually matter.

1. Mewtwo has the best type.

No argument from you, I hope. This also makes any future bullshit about Slowbro null and void.

2. Mewtwo has the best stats.

No argument from you, I hope.

3. Mewtwo can learn almost every good move.

Small argument is allowed from you, I suppose.

However, given that Mewtwo takes 1 and 2, all you're left with is 3.

Again, you can claim Mewtwo is not cheap because Mew is also cheap, but that doesn't cut the mustard in my book.

If you think the existence of Mew makes Mewtwo not cheap, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But every other argument you've made is total krap in light of this.

Look, I see your overall point. But it's as high-minded, but unfortunately ill-conceived, as The Great Dreamer's "all Pokemon are good" argument.

The simple fact is that Mewtwo is the best Pokemon (by a longshot if you look at the numbers) and he has no real weaknesses. If that doesn't make him cheap...

...OK, hypothetical question...

If there were a Pokemon that had twice Mewtwo's stats, could learn every attack, but everyone had access to him, would you consider him cheap?

If not, I have nothing more to say to you.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

Show me a Mewtwo that works with Barrier. Seriously, I've never seen one. One attack gone and Mewtwo acquires a new class of problems, including PP and resistance...go ahead, play Amenesia/Barrier/Recover; I've got my Chansey and Slowbro waiting for you...

LOL! Barrier creates PP problems! Yeah, that lousy 30 base that it has... Let's compare the base PP of this "crappy" Barrier Mewtwo with standard Chanseys and Slowbros.

Mewtwo (Barrier/Amnesia/Recover/Psychic) = 30 + 20 + 20 + 10 = 80 PP
Chansey (Thunderwave/Softboiled/Seismic Toss/Minimize) = 20 + 10 + 20 + 20 = 70 PP
Slowbro (Thunderwave/Amnesia/Rest/Surf) = 20 + 20 + 10x3 + 15 = 85 PP

Slowbro slightly edges out Mewtwo, and Chansey's PP would be higher (get your mind out of the gutter ) if it had Rest instead of Softboiled (90 PP). However, when you consider that a paralyzed Mewtwo will lose about 25% of its turns, his effective PP becomes 100, beating them both.

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Welcome to DJ Inc., where everything is JUST fine.

I was in my dad's car.

- My friend's dad looks like rush limbaugh...

------------------
"And sometimes you see things that aren't there (Like what?)
Like fat woman in G-strings with orange hair
(Mr. Shady what's a G-string?) It's yarn Claire
Women stick 'em up their behinds, go out and wear 'em"

We've all played street fighter right?

Remember Characters like Ryu had moves like the one where he fires a fireball across the screen - I'm sure at some point we remember soemone just shooting across the screen repeatedly - you get knocked down - get up - get hit again until you are dead - right?

So of course you agree with your friends not to use that attack in such a way - bad sportsmanship... but when you use mewtwo your friend doesn't stand a chance if he hasn't got a mewtwo - but will you agree to drop mewtwo like you would drop projectile attacks in Street fighter?

If you're gonna bring SF into this, let's use this analogy. In SF Alpha 3 (arcade), if you hold light punch and light kick while pressing start and then pick Karin Kanzuki, if you throw the other guy they will lose 99% of their life. This is equivalent to using Mewtwo in Pokemon. It can be countered, but it's the hardest to counter in the whole game ...

Or if we're talking strictly legal, and with expert skillz, picking V-Akuma, V-Sakura or V-Ryu is equivalent to Mewtwo (these guys have almost 100% damaging combos and are ridiculously overpowered at the high level).

But I'm sure you're all bored of SF talk so I'll stop now =p

Seeyas!

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-
*** Ace ***

Show me an anti-Mewtwo, and I'll show you a Mewtwo that can beat it.

It seems you have "Polyhaymakerdeckophobia."

Keep in mind, it keeps the damage counters, you can easily have..

Have a Charizard FireSpin. Ditto would have taken 100 damage. Then use switch on Charizard.

Due to the ammount of Energy required, if you do that suddenly, the defending person woulden't have enough time to power up Ditto... After the switch, you switch it out for somthing like say...Fossil Dragonite (but if that was the case, you woulden't need to switch. Just use it's power "step in"), and it would be KO'ed since it took more damage then it could.

And Haymakers aren't tottaly Broken-- If you study the cards enough you can find MILLIONS of fun ways to beat them (seriously). How so, I'll let you find yourself...

<-----Vandergant----->

And now that TR is out, we have things like Evolutionary light. And you're not tottaly correct. You could always use a "DamageSink" card. And rember there are Pokemon Breeders too.

With that being said, you could have them out as quick as the round after they're put out. (With ComputerSearch and Bill too, Probaly, unless you have luck)

Third, they're slow PKMN, but given some cards (to get discarded ones), Pokemon Centre... You could effectivly get back what you lost eatch turn, and annoyingly gain it all back. Now...to make things even worse, you can put in a damage sink PKMN or Two, then the whole Haymaker Process would get slower....at least for the fighting types.

And by definition, a Haymaker was ORIGONALY had to had Hitmonchan. That's what makes it a Haymaker. In Realtiy, a true haymaker would be scrwed by a Breeder/Evolutionary Lightcombo (dependant on who's used.)(and Perhaps maybe TRTrap, but that's sort of considered broken).

And about Ditto; there's somthing that's in areas where there aren't just Haymakers: They're called Energy Removal decks.

You'll run out of DCE very fast. That's why no one uses him here.

Maybe it's just the diversity of players down here, or just that everyone up where you live likes HayMakers, but down here, I only see the Chan baised (real ones), and they're usualy considered.... "Bent". And they aren't used much.

That closes my end of my comment.

<-----Vandergant----->

*Dead people don't sign*

All it takes is for one little Vampire in a Black Outfit with hood and cape to open up a whole new can of worms.

*cleans the screen to ready herself to reply to yet another extra long post.*

Anyway...

As the debate goes..

First off, Fahn, HM is definitly non-existant down here without Chan. And Chan is usualy hoped as first attacker. We all know Magmar's Smog attack and ability to push out Poison is annoying (after Fossil came out, of course, and there are STILL people who rather Basic Magmar over Fossil. Urgh). I have yet to see a person that once I step into Toys R' Us that dosen't want to trade a card with me For one of my Hitmonchans. Now, you may hear of otherwise, but I'm reacting to the Metagame, and that's what it shows.

Of course, this can be very well because I'm usualy the only darn female.
And that they're usualy younger, but that's besides the point. There are also guys that come in that are around 22, and a whole other group around 18... I usualy play against them when they're around...

Elect tends to harm RainDance baised Decks (Urgh.). Hitmonchan Normal (Clefairy and the like. Clefable is underated imho. But that's probaly because everyone else is using Haymakers up there. ) Magmar grass (Scyther takes a licking here.)

Farfech'd being founded as Golden came later... (not after Magmar. But I mean In Mass.) At least by PoJo.

And about being creamed....

First, did I say Mime was to be out before anything other then Psy? No. Mr. Mime vs. Psy is usualy a good idea (Unless its an abra or the like) Slow but steady. I'm shocked you just didn't pick out the sheer fact that Mr. Mime against Chan, Elect or even Scy would assure an Early death. If I rember correctly, it only has 40 HP and it's PKMN Barrier only gaurds against 40 and up, so Scyther's (30), Farfech'd (30), Elect's (around 10 I think. I should look.), and Magmars (10 to 20 not including poison damage), would fry it.

Of course, nothing was said bout Lapras. I know of Elect, but it has the ability to confuse, and is generaly said to be a fast card.

And the Ditto thing was my reply to "Ditto is good as he can change DCE into anything"... If you don't have the DCE, then it'll take you a while to get all the energy needed for some attacks, and by that time it would be utter mammed, and probaly get Gusted, as they're common too.

As for Status baised Problems with Damage Sink... TR has Full Heal colorless Energy, as well as potion. That, along with maybe a Vilepume on bench (or simmular) can truley annoy some things due to low damage output on some. And keep in mind, if you're playing like the way we do down here, you're probaly getting ER/SER from bouth sides... It's not uncommon down here.

Just keep in mind either way, as soon as Gym1 and 2 come out over here, thing's will get even more broken. So there's no use crying over spilt milk yet.

Because I am pritty sure even I'M going to complain about how broken those cards can get in the hands of some people.

Anyway, since this is a public forum, I'll tell you all that I'm ending this overly long Novel that's going to be called a "reply". Fanha? Why don't we trade deck ideas then. We'd be able to pick on each other much more if we did. And it would certainly keep us from tormenting these poor souls with overly long replys.

I mean look at what happened uner "Yes!! We have Lesbians" (Okay. That may not be it but I'm close..). Everyone else got confused.

Besides, it'd be better then trying to pick on other people's grammical errors. If you want too, then do it when school resumes so no one would be bothered. And it's not like I am, but it being three days from just "fireworks" day, I think it'd be wrong to remind everyone of the terrors of School...

...Oh my I just did that, didn't I? </kidding>

I think that ends my part of this post flood. Oh, how fast do you type anyway? I type at 13 wpm and still need a Spell check for typos.

Well at any rate, I look onto debating deck matters with you.

<-----Vandergant----->

You make some good points.

Later I did a re-match and KO'd all his Pokemon using just my Seadra... says a lot doesn't it?

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"There WILL be poking!" -Me
"I like grapes!" -Anthrax

quote:

---

Quit it with the frikin' Mewtwo arguments!~!#!@#$@#% !%^$^5217537y$% #@&%#Q@^n 53hTSW43 5gtswht4hbye rtbg h

---

Now that I have that off my chest, let's take a look at the numbers and the logic. For the millionth time, might I add.

Mewtwo's stats

HP - 415 Rank - 7
Chansey (703), Snorlax (523), Wigglytuff (483), Lapras and Vaporeon (463), Jigglypuff (433), all beat him.

Attack - 318 Rank - 10, tied with scyther, arcanine, snorlax, golem, dodrio
Dragonite (366), Rhydon, Kingler, Flareon, Machamp (358), Gyarados and Pinsir (348), Hitmonlee (338), Kabutops (328), all beat him.

Defense - 278 Rank - 31
Not gonna bother listing all of them.

Speed - 358 Rank - 2, tied with Jolteon and Aerodactyl
Electrode (378) is the only one that beats him.

Special - 406 Rank - 1
Enough said. Alakazam is 368 and ranks 2nd.

Stats Total - 1775 Rank - 1
Dragonite and mew rank 2nd with 1595. *gets out his trusty calculator* That makes a difference of 180. For the record, the lowest are Weedle and Caterpie at 945, a difference of 830. No comparison, of course.

That's all from the database that I made, all of the data taken straight from the Skill/Statfinder. The data talks for itself. Giving your mewtwo a set of Barrier/Amnesia/Rest/Psychic renders it nearly impossible to kill, barring all critical hits. Rest takes care of toxic and paralysis as well as it sets Leech Seed back to 1/32 or something like that. I will still use Mewtwo, however, as cheap as he is. It's just a matter of agreeing the rules beforehand. As for the Streetfighter analogy, I agree totally. Same in Mortal Kombat, with Sub-Zero's Freeze.

But please, for the love of Goddish, quit beating this topic into the ground.

First off, About Mr. Mime, we where bouth wrong.
My Card says 30 or more damage.
40 HP is it's Max. So Hitmonchan and co STILL would most likely be doing damage.
If it was 20, it would be eay too golden.(I have the card IRL.) As as I had thought, Chan would still be able to hurt it, as well As the Movie and Base Electrabuzz. (Quickattack, Thundershock.) I still have him in my deck though... The same with Magmar. Who's 10, 20 I belive (I can check, I collect the cards.)

The odd of getting a VilePlume as well as Alakazam... Look at your own deck.

As for Ditto, just keep in mind he has 40 HP, and bench attacking is also common (and fun).

Lapas has Watergun.
Base damage 10. The most 30. You do the math... RainDance. It CAN get annoying due to it's HP. (80)

As for Farfech'd, agreed. Those Darn Eles ruin that card.

And if they don't ban some of those Gym1/2 cards when they come out, then I quit.. (infact, I was ready to quit as a player before TR came out...)

You seem to be nicer to me this time, and I thank you.

As for the down here stuff, it was like that when I played over Apprentice too... But then again, I could also just be playing against people that aren't too good.

I feel as if I'm the slowest typer that's been on the Internet for more then 3 years, but then again, I still use only four fingers. I really need to go to typing class. I'd probaly sound more coherent if I did. The sad fact of the matter is: Even though I do make alot of errors, I woulden't make the majority of them on Pen and Paper (I.E: "Eatch" instead of "Each".). Which is odd...

Where's the Energy in your Deck? O.o
I take it it's Psychic...

<-----Vandergant----->

Just because they happen to have good stats? That's not right. Mewtwos can be beaten easily with something called strategy. I don't see why everyone over-reacts about Mewtwos.

And obviously using strategy to defeat Mewtwo would be appropriate if the Mewtwo user was shite. Unfortunately, if you're going to argue agains Mewtwo being cheap, making it so that the no-Mewtwo guy is the Pokemon God and the Mewtwo user is shite and has no strategy of his own is kinda off.

Go Prop15!

And yes, TCG has balance problems that make the GB one's look small. =P

Ya sure, it's an unfair advantage, but look at it this way... THE OTHER PLAYER COULD USE IT TOO!!!!

If the other player wanted to do it, and he knew how, ya, he could do it. But if he choose not to, even though his opponent did, he's the stupid one.

It's the same with Mewtwo, if one person choose's to use him, but the other does not, its the Non-Mewtwo users problem, not mine.

Haymaker? Ya, I play with one of those, and I fell no shame about some idiot ranter saying "Haymakers Cheap and Overused". Do I care? NO!! I'm also having a fun time playing with thew deck. Why? Because I'm winning. On another point, I made this deck from scratch, so its my own creation, just like 3 of my 6 Mewtwo's Movesets.

You saying the 6-Mewtwo team is cheap? Ya, thats what all the losers say, just cus they din't win. They too have the option of choosing a 6-Mewtwo team on PBS, but do they? NO!! Not my problem.

TobyBro? Ya, he is a nice Pokemon, but not made for killing Mewtwos (Mewtwo used Thunderbolt!!). Its like comparing Alakazam with Magikarp, ones just better then the other. You want a Mewtwo killer, go find your own %^^$ing Mewtwo killer. Then I will change My Mewtwo to kill that Pokemon, and you will start whinning, saying its cheap and has no Strategy... or does it. What I would have done would be strategy, giving Mewtwo a move to kill the next Mewtwo killer.

If a Mewtwo user, and a Non-Mewtwo user go up against each other, who wins? The Mewtwo user. Why? Because he has better Pokemon. Now lets say both use a Mewtwo, what then? Well, it will come to the point where both Mewtwos are fighting, and as an old saying goes "2 Mon enter, one Mon wins", so technicaly, one Mewtwo muist fall, but which one?

In then end, we all have a choice, we can play with Mewtwo, and show that we don't care what someone says is cheap, or you can not use Mewtwo, and show that your a Moron.

You decide...

< quickly manages to crack PBS and puts in a version of Spore which always goes first, just like Quick Attack >