363.5 - Guess who?
322.2 - Moltres
320.5 - Zapdos
318.8 - Articuno
315.5 - Mew/Dragonite
308.8 - Exeggutor
303.8 - Cloyster
288.9 - Chansey
280.5 - Snorlax
272.2 - Slowbro

I might have missed a few in-betweeners, I just picked some logical strong Pokemon.

Hell, give Koffing 40 points per stat over every other Pokemon and even he won't completely suck!

Also note how close the field gets once it drops down to #2. If M2 isn't "far and away" the best Pokemon, I'm loopy on paint fumes.

So, if you still say Mewtwo isn't cheap...shut up.

Seriously, tho...c'mon!

How can you possibly argue otherwise, especially when he's got the best type (does anyone contend that?)!

I find it very interesting that Zapdos is #3 (unless I forgot someone). It would explain why I always have so much trouble with him.

But, again, at least Zapdos is weak to Ice (too bad only my Psyduck knows it). What's Mewtwo weak to? Oh yeah, that's right...Bug!

OOOOOOOOOooooh! Scary.

[I went back and added Cloyster, and fixed the order.]

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

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Insert sig here.

I personally think that "cheap" is the wrong word for something overpowered. "Unbalanced" is more appropriate. Mewtwo would be "cheap" if, say, only 1 in 10 games came with one. That would mean one person would have a very good pokemon that 9 others would lack.

By definition, Mewtwo is cheap and unbalanced if you don't use yours and your opponent does. He's just unbalanced, not cheap if both players use him.

I'm not trying to promote Mewtwo-use or anything. I just wish that the people complaining about him would try Poke Cup for a change.

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"

But to say that he's "cheap" is maybe unfair. Certainly he's overpowered, and he changes the game into one where he should be used in every fight. However, this makes for a different game, arguably a lesser one. However, the point could be made that the game is more fun with less variance, and the heavy reliance on special gives physical attackers something special.

I don't necessarily agree with those points, however: I feel that the low monster variance takes greatly away from the flavor of the game, as well as what you can expect in a tournament. I saw two kinds of teams at tournament:

(1) Teams without Mewtwo that dropped within 8 turns when faced with my Mewtwo equipped team.
(2) Teams that used Mewtwo and stood a chance.

I'm sad that it comes to this, and have taken to analyzing both petit (very nice) and poke (also excellent) as high variance alternatives to the annoying Mewtwo dominated prime cup.

In prime cup, however, I will continue to use Mewtwo. Is that cheap? Well, I prefer to think that I just have the numbers on my side

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-cfalcon

At least I think most everyone understands everyone else's opinion by now...well, except that I still don't get Fanha.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TeeJay:
Yeah, Zapdos is 2 probably cause you counted the Special twice. Just wait a few months until G/S is out and it won't be that way. With Special only once, it goes: Mewtwo, Mew/Dragonite,Moltres,Zapdos,Articuno,Cloyster(believe it or not),Exeggutor

---

When G/S comes out, there will be two Specials. Until then, counting Special only once is illogical. It's like averaging Attack and Defense and counting it once. That's why Amnesia is such an awesome move; it's a Swords Dance and two Hardens for Special attacks wrapped up in one move.

And when G/S comes out, I can get Blissy!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rolken:
When G/S comes out, there will be two Specials. Until then, counting Special only once is illogical.

---

Yeah, I know, I just love pointing out how far up the list Cloyster is!

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Insert sig here.

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"And sometimes you see things that aren't there (Like what?)
Like fat woman in G-strings with orange hair
(Mr. Shady what's a G-string?) It's yarn Claire
Women stick 'em up their behinds, go out and wear 'em"

But this message of yours highlights your only valid point (which was also mentioned in the other thread), so I might as well address it here.

You make a good case for Mew being cheap as well. You don't make any sort of case for Mewtwo being not cheap, and you've never come up with a shread of evidence that refutes the idea that he is cheap.

However, I can see how one could consider Mew cheap as well. I don't feel so strongly about him...he is supposed to be a gift by Nintendo, so it's nice that he's powerful (unlike Amnesia Psyduck).

I personally don't think he's cheap, because Nintendo Mews have krappy stats and simply because he's just not as powerful as Mewtwo.

Transform is a cute trick, but not terribly cheap, since it takes a turn to power up and all you can possibly gain in a HP advantage.

Mewtwo learns Amnesia, Mew learns Swords Dance. Amnesia raises Special Defense, but Dance can work with Swift. I'd call it a draw.

Mew learns One-Hit KOs, but so do a lot of other guys. He's no more accurate with it than others.

And, yeah, he has access to tons of attacks, but each individual Mew has only 4, and individuals are what make up a battle.

Given that any Nintendo Mew probably won't have a relevantly higher Defense than Mewtwo, will certainly have lower stats in the other categories (if the Mewtwo is trained well) and that it's sort of a gift (I'm sentimental), I don't have any problems with Mew.

But I understand how someone could.

At least you've finally stopped claiming that Slowbro is equivalent in cheapness to Mewtwo.

So, to review, you've nominated another candidate for cheapness, the only other candidate that could reasonably be considered cheap, and one that was in fact mentioned in the title of the first thread that was started in this debate.

OK.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
*should I really show up here?*

---

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"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
But if you can't admit he has MUCH more endurance...he can get the time to pull [One-Hit KOs] off a LOT more often (meaning on more ocasions than the others will live long enough)...EVERY turn counts...one extra turn might be the end of that Amnesiaed Mewtwo...

---

This is a valid point, especially given that Mew has the best type (a requirement for total cheapness), but 1HK moves are limited enough that I still don't see them as cheap. If you need to count on them, you need a way to always be faster than your opponent and you eat up a spot that could be used for more defense or attack.

I think it's a real jerky way to play, but doesn't push Mew into cheap territory. It's debatable.

quote:

---

Well I got so many...I got [a Mew] with near perfect stats...

---

Well, I don't include cheating in determinations of whether or not a Pokemon is cheap. I could shark up my Koffing's stats to 999 and he'd be cheap, but that doesn't mean all Koffings are cheap.

quote:

---

NOBODY is more unpredictable than a Mew.

---

True, but I don't consider unpredictability equal to cheap. You need brains to choose a good Mew moveset. You don't need brains to use Psychic on Mewtwo and kill half my team in one shot.

quote:

---

I ONLY SAID SLOWBRO IS CHEAP ON THE SAME GROUNDS MEWTWO WOULD BE CONSIDERED CHEAP...

---

This is why you should just drop arguments that have no relevance to the big picture. If you spend all your time arguing trivial points, people will get the idea that your whole argument is trivial.

I must admit, it took me an awful lot of reading before I read anything you wrote that made sense. You spent so much time with the nonsense, I'd just bail halfway thru your messages. I couldn't take them, and you didn't give any impression that they might be going anywhere.

quote:

---

That's outright rediculous...

---

For the record, there's no E in "ridiculous". Think of the word "ridicule" when you spell it...

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

Okay, Mewtwo's gone...

Oh no, now Moltres has higher stats than everyone else! He's cheap! Get him out of the lineup!

Moltres is removed...

Wait, now Zapdos has higher stats than everyone else! He's cheap! Give him the axe!

.....

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. K:
363.5 - Guess who?
320.5 - Zapdos
322.2 - Moltres
318.8 - Articuno

---

Umm... I might have barely passed math last year... but I KNOW 322.3 is higher than 320.5 ... that makes Moltres the highest... You'll also notice the names go in order of strongest to weakest (MolTRES = Best, ZapDOS = Middle, ArticUNO = Worst... but that's just Stat wise...)
-Givera

...There, all better. The gist of that post should be much clearer now that the math is correct.

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-Scorch

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scorch:
Hey, Mewtwo has higher stats than everyone else! He's cheap! Let's get rid of him!

---

1. Look at the huge difference in stats between #1 and #2.

2. Moltres has significant weaknesses, Mewtwo does not.

3. Moltres learns krappy moves.

4. You obviously haven't read all the other stuff that's been posted about Mewtwo in the Azure Arena.

If you want to make an informed argument after you've read some of that stuff, I'm all ears.

But, come to think of it, you can disregard everything I just said and stick with "Look at the huge difference in stats between #1 and #2.".

That about sums it up.

The fact that Mewtwo has no legit weaknesses is just icing on the cake.

By the way, sorry about screwing up the ordering of the boids. I'll go fix that now.

Now I'm not about to deny that Mewtwo tips the scales severely. He is extremely unbalanced and unquestionably the clear winner in almost any situation. But I think the best way to handle this problem is not to ban him or complain about him but simply to deal with him. Losing to your opponent's Mewtwo? Use your own. Better yet, do what I've already seen a lot of people here doing and devise strategies that play on his weaknesses. (low defense, PP exhaustion etc.)

Unfortunately this game can't be patched like a PC game can when a marked imbalanace in gameplay is found. From the discussion going on around here it seems like Nintendo did indeed take notice of Mewtwo's extreme advantages and toned him down somewhat for G/S. Until then, Mewtwo is here to stay (in all his irritating glory) and I think the time and effort spent complaining about him would be better invested in simply finding ways to deal with him.

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-Scorch

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scorch:
Unfortunately this game can't be patched like a PC game can when a marked imbalanace in gameplay is found.

---

Yes, it can.

All it takes is a gentleman's agreement between two players that they won't use Mewtwo.

And that's what all the debate is about.

However... if someone wants to use Mewtwos then they have every right to do so, whether one person wants them in the battle or not. I'll admit that this usually leads to all-out Mewtwo brawls, which can be a bit absurd, but not necessarily dull.

Just because Mewtwo does all the work when he's allowed in a battle doesn't mean the fight has to be boring. Example: a friend of mine has three max stat mewtwos, so I sharked up three of my own and gave them wildly varying (but legal) movesets. I mean, come on, using pyschic on another mewtwo is just stupid, what with its high special and resistance to the attack. Much more fun to use something unexpected, like fire blast, double edge or seismic toss. We have some interesting battles.

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-Scorch

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scorch:
...if someone wants to use Mewtwos then they have every right to do so, whether one person wants them in the battle or not.

---

Of course, I have every right to refuse battle if the other player insists on being a bastard.

I don't mind it in Prime Cup competition, but if I want to play for fun, I have found playing without Mewtwo to be a lot more fun.

The typical random kid, tho, has no problem having L255 Pokemon on their team, so it does take a little work to get a non-Mewtwo game going, but when you get one, I find the other player is usually not quite so much of a jerk as the typical kid.

Hey, Fanha, those Mews you have that have good stats - they're cheat pokemon. You wouldn't be able to use those in a real tourney unless Nintendo were dumb and didn't check.

Which leads us to ....

But if you can't admit he has MUCH more endurance...

What's this krap about MUCH more endurance? Do you mean defence?

Max legal Mew defence = 270

Max legal Mewtwo defence = 278

HP? Special?

There goes a chunk of your Mew argument =p

Seeyas

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-
*** Ace ***

quote:

---

The typical random kid, tho, has no problem having L255 Pokemon on their team, so it does take a little work to get a non-Mewtwo game going, but when you get one, I find the other player is usually not quite so much of a jerk as the typical kid.

---

I don't play random kids much but I can definitely believe that.

Well, seeing that the points I wanted to make are already understood and that the horse was probably dead long before I even registered here, I think I'll stop.

From now on I'll keep two separate teams; one with six normal monsters and one with six L255 Mewtwos.

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-Scorch

FIghting with special defense!!!!!!!!
ANy good fighting attacks?
Machamp is bound to be useful someday.

I want a dark/normal pokemon in G/S

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
I caught people coming out of the line and asked them to copy their Mews to me...so I sat there for over an hour(s) and pooled Mews...you happy?!

---

Like I said, since you pretty much have to cheat to get a good Mew, they don't go down as quite so cheap in my book.

quote:

---

Raw numbers don't reflect anything.

---

Are you high?

Anyway, you keep forgetting to mention Slowbro is part-Psychic. Slowbro is only useful because of this. Otherwise, Poliwrath would be a decent Pokemon.

Eh, why do I bother?

You seem intent on getting bogged down in pointless details...

What? Is this a joke? *_* .Because it sounds very farfetch'd. Cloning pokemon is risky. I know if I just came out with a Mew and a stranger popped out and told me to clone it for him, I'd give him a very funny look and walk away. I'm a fairly benvolent soul, but even *I* wouldn't risk my hard-earned team of Pokes to an apparent greedy trainer I never heard of =P. Not to mention you can't even *tell* if a Mew is going to have good stats when you get them at .. what level again? 5 or 10 or something?

Anyways, everyone with legit Mews should know what the stats look like. I think most of them are the same. I know for a fact the Aussie ones are and from the people I've talked with in the US when we compared stats they seemed the same as well.

If you must know, the stats go something like 383, 288, 270, 292, 278 (yea i have it memorised for some reason).

Anyways if you have someone reputable like Sama or something back you up on that, *then* I'll believe you.

I don't cheat...normally.

ARGH! A cheater! =p

And whoever set this "Nintendo standard Mews" wasn't very bright; they're just random DVs generated.

Not really. Like I said all the legit Mews I've seen and talked about are all the same. And your example above, that sounds very farfetch'd too me ..

Seeyas!

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-
*** Ace ***

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fanha:
OF COURSE raw numbers don't mean anything if they aren't literally expressed. How is a Pokemon's "average" expressed?

---

How do you think Mewtwo got such a high average? Because his individual stats are great.

Are you attempting to argue that Mewtwo has bad stats?

Your point is well-taken that a hypothetical Pokemon with 999 Defense and 1 of everything else would have an average score that doesn't reflect its overall versatility...

...but we're talking about Mewtwo!

I really, really, really wish you'd stop putting on the blinders and trying to pick apart individual sentences, and start looking at things in the big picture.

Again, the more you continue to harp on the trivial, the easier it is for me to brush off everything you say as nonsense.

It's not worth it to pick thru the tripe to find the relevant info...

You need to learn to pick your battles, if you ever want to be taken seriously.

...or maybe that's not your goal, maybe it's just the fun of the debate.

If that's it, then you're not worth my time.

It's not "funny", it's common sense.

If either I agree with you on a point you make, or the issue is so small that it's irrelevant, it doesn't warrant a response.

Picking apart each individual sentence is a waste of time.

Discussing a topic is not supposed to be an exercise in semantics, it's not about winning or losing individual battles, it's about The Big Picture (or at least it should be, unless you're just debating for sport, which it seems you are).

I refuse to waste time squabbling about piddly details.

Look how ridiculous you look constantly bringing up Slowbro when you claim he's not relevant to your argument. Well, if he isn't, then just drop it!

Man, you are one thick coconut.

Also, you should know that when you GameShark up a Mew, it does have a random DV. I've talked with many peeps who GS their Mew then spent a lot of time trying to get one with good stats (I guess before they found out you could just alter it anyway with GS).

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-
*** Ace ***

It's like we're arguing about the design of an airplane and I off-handedly mention that the sky is blue.

Then you take issue with that, explain how the sky is sometimes pinkish, and that clouds may (or may not) be actually a part of the sky and they are not blue, etc., etc. and then when push comes to shove, you eventually admit that that's got nothing to do with anything.

But 10 minutes later you're going on about light refraction and what really constitutes "blue" anyway.

Some things you should drop. Especially the things that even you have admitted are not relevant to your argument.

If someone brings them up again, just don't respond, especially if you've both already said the same thing three times.

As far as I can tell, you don't actually have a point any more (if, indeed, you ever had one). You just like punching holes in sentences that on their own are not relevant.

If you tried to have a discussion in real life the way you pick apart these posts, you'd drown in a recursive spiral once you got past the word "hello".

I'm just trying to suggest that you take a step back from your posts and make sure it's actually going somewhere. If not, you're just amusing yourself at our expense...which is fair, I guess, if we keep buying into it, but it'd be nicer if you didn't.

We are simple creatures, and easily baited.

A lot of the cheapness thing didn't include actual numbers, so this was a nice break from that.

Heh heh... I like that line.

How do you deal with grep in chromatic Stadium, TGD?

Let's make this real clear: if you are going to say that Mewtwo is mortal in chromatic stadium, back it up. Tell me what you would do against ME, if *I* was to bring Mewtwo out on your ass. It's a safe bet I have Amnesia, Recover, and Substitute, and it's a safe bet I'm packing Psychic.

What do YOU do? Not against some peeny little kid, not against someone who is going to fuck up, not against someone who you can hope that the die rolls in your favor- What in the hell do you do against MY Mewtwo?

Remember, I'm not dumb. You can't "trick" me reliably. I can crunch numbers. I won't win everytime, but I would be fucking blown away if you could take my Mewtwo more than half the time.

Don't just say you'd paralyze me. You need one of three monsters for that, and you, having claimed that Mewtwo isn't so hot, are presumably not playing with your own Mewtwo, so that leaves two. One is Jolteon, who might get his ass rocked anyway. The other is electrode, who has a shot at taking Mewtwo down with him.

I say this because this is an old debate, and there's still a lot of people who think that chromatic Mewtwo is a fair shake. If this were the case they wouldn't have castrated his left nut (Amnesia) and his right nut (psychic types only resisted by psychic types).

I don't agree that Mewtwo should be banned for official tournaments in general: they have perfectly decent pokecup tournament that should be the main event. It also discourages the ludicrous L100 k-rap that I have to do to get legal monsters.

I assure you when I run numbers on Mewtwo I'm not "Justifying my lack of skill". So here's your challenge: You and I are battling. Mewtwo is on my team. He isn't necessarily my lead, and you don't know the rest of my team. I maintain that whatever you have on your team, unless one of them is Mewtwo, you probably lose. VERY probably.

My use of Mewtwo doesn't make me worse at the game. My use of Mewtwo makes me win. If someone said "Let's play without Mewtwo" I'd be fine with that. But to claim that you can beat Mewtwo without one of your own is lunacy, unless you have their whole team known and have a bunch of counters planned (10k's trainer team, for instance).

So to preemptively answer your query to Mr. K, YES, tell me what you would do against Mewtwo in chromatic stadium.

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-cfalcon

Thankfully he looked at his team last weak and realized his team sucks!!! Even my shadow ball mewtwo couldnt kill his, but hopefully our mewtwos will sit on our boxes awhile, and we can try new stuff.

Captain Falcon;
Well, first, the Nintendo influenced and defiled Stadium it is totally unblalanced, unlike the Game Freak design purity of the Chromatics.
Also, it would be critical if I knew if the Grep would be used.
It is also critical to know what game enviroment we are playing, Trainer or Strategist. Trainers follow the game rules, they play the game the way it was meant to be played thus balancing the game to perfect equilibrium...but, the Strategist game enviroment the rules are broken and the balance it's warped just to make the game a purely strategic game. The balancing variables are removed making a void demanding to be filled and often replaced by clauses and other restrictions.
There are to many variables and possibilies to account for in an imagenary battle, you can only virtualy simulate it so far.
As far as I know you, Captain, you are a Strategist and that's why you percieve the game as unbalanced.
Just tell me what game enviroment the scenario would take place and we can try take it from there...

What you said there was that you could always beat a M2, but only if you knew it was coming and its moves, and only if the other player wasn't determined on winning. Ok, I can do that to, but it doesn't make M2 a balanced poke...