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Author Topic: Now that we're all used to the rules, clauses and by-laws...
Uiru
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posted 08-10-2002 10:36 PM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...what would happen to the metagame if every one of them were whipped away?

I'm talking everything. Six Sleep Talking Horn Drill/Fissure Mews- legal. Sporing every opponent- legal. Last Pokémon using Explosion and KOing the opponent's last for the win- legal. And all the sissy ones like Evade Clause, HP Clause, OHKO Clause and Item Clause would soon be nothing but an unpleasant memory.

Without any sort of restriction, rule or guideline, other than the fact that everything must be legal... What would happen? What WOULD happen? Pandemonium would reign for quite a while, no doubt, as people gleefully abuse the lack of Sleep Clause while other people scramble to get as much Safeguard/Sleep Talk on their team as they could. Persian or Gengar's Spite might come into play to drain some OHKOs. It would be sheer, unadulterated madness, and I think we should go for it, just to see what would happen.
~Uiru

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TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

AFRO NOOOOOOO!!!

From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cesar
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posted 08-10-2002 11:34 PM      Profile for Cesar   Email Cesar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That presents a mass amount of problems that most trainers aren't willing to go through.

But you've made a point. If these clauses didn't exist, you'd have to find out ways to counter the abuse as well as dish out abuse yourself.

Substitute would be a very popular move (block fissure/horn drill, sleep, Explosion, etc.) but creativity would rule over most standard pokemon. I think its definately worth to try this out.

From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 08-11-2002 12:03 AM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
6 Smeargle with Spore, Horn Drill, Fissure, Seismic Toss (to break subs) @Quick Claw

Hoo hah.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk
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posted 08-11-2002 02:49 AM      Profile for Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, if there aren't any rules against pre-poisoning (though I'm not sure if it still works in G/S)..

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Trebor
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posted 08-11-2002 07:28 AM      Profile for Trebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like this idea.

The game was made with all these moves in it to be used as you want. I hate all the clauses. Its a game, and clauses make it too serious. All moves can be countered in someway, and its up to you what you use. If you want to use spore, horn drill, lock on @ quick claw on a team of 6 smeargles its up to you, but it can be counterede, with subsitute, other fast pokemon and any reasonably strong pokemon, since smeargle has crap stats.

Everyone could use 6 uberlegendaries (this includes curselax and blissey) and wipe out a well thought out team of standards, but they get no satisfaction out of it. Its up to you whether you want to counter this or just go for an attacking style of your own.

It would be worth trying anyway, just to see the pure chais it would cause.

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!TREBOR!

From: B'Ham | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
LanderZRPG
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posted 08-11-2002 09:43 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Even 6 00bers could be beaten, with standards and strategy.
Just whip out the Heal Bell, and then smack the 00bers up with Para, Conf, and Sleep.

This would certainly make the game more interesting, plus, as discussed on a previous topic (Although I can't remember which; probably Uiru's point system one) it would make many pokes more usable.

Case and point: Good luck to the Curselax trying to beat a Steelix with Fissure.

The OHKO clause has all-but eliminated Steelix's usability in battles against anything Ground isn't SuperEff on. Sure, it has good Defense, and can blow up, but blowing up wastes a poke, and your opponent will all-too-often bring in Starmie and Surf you to death before you have a chance to do anything, anyway.

Sleep Clause has killed off (one of) Smeargle's and Parasect's killing points. They have low speed for a reason; you don't need to punish the suckers any further. It has also made Jynx and Venusaur much more uncommon.

Basically, nothing has no counters. True, perhaps your Starmie, irregardless of its moveset, may not be able to beat Mewtwo on fair fighting grounds (Excluding mad luck), but as a team, nothing is unstoppable.
Adding all the clauses in just eliminated the usefulness of many pokemon, and thus creating the typical 10-20 standards that everybody will use.
Toss out the clauses, and people will start using Gligar, and Xatu, and Seaking. It opens things up. With more variety comes more options, and more things that need to be countered. So, you won't be able to say something along the lines of 'Alright, it's a Gengar. I know what to do.' as you have your standard team and know what to do vs the standard Gengar. You bring out your Sandslash with Miracleberry, and kick butt, or something like that. Now, what do you do if Gligar comes out? Bring out Sandslash and pray you don't get OHKO'd before you can kill it? Or maybe bring out your ice-pokemon; wait! It is taking a nap from earlier in the battle when you thought you could beat that Jumpluff with it, before it put half your team to sleep!
There will be no 'standards' and 'standard-counters' anymore. True, some pokemon will be used more, but there will be more ways to get around those, and then you'll need counters for those, which will lead to new ways around those... etc. etc. etc.

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From what we've learned, it seems like you'd prefer girls dressed in ant costumes or something... -Kazuki (Regarding tl;dr)

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(www.poweradvantage.net)

From: High Prairie, AB, Canada | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trebor
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posted 08-11-2002 01:19 PM      Profile for Trebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[Big Grin] , making the game how it was supposed to be played.

They made 250 pokes for a reason...for each persons individual battle strategy. Admittedly some will never be used in any form of battling (except maybe 6 magikarps with flail and focus band for the hell of it, wouldnt work but this was illegal under the item clause rule, pointless!). 250 pokes, with perhaps all fully evolved pokes being feasibly usable, more movesets, more ideas to counter, more fun to battle. With standards there is an element of luck, when u bring out a Furret/Ariados/Ledian/(insert crappy never used poke here) no one will have any idea what moveset it will have, so you have skill on ur side in creating a good moveset.

There will eventually become a time after using this for so long that "new standards" become obvious, but for the main this will bring a new style of battling for a while.

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!TREBOR!

From: B'Ham | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Draco the spirit dragon
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posted 08-11-2002 03:28 PM      Profile for Draco the spirit dragon   Email Draco the spirit dragon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
thats call teams under this style free-for-alls!

and like you say everything has a counter. i myself use sleeptalking Arcanine to kill Jynix.

[ 08-11-2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Draco the spirit dragon ]

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always expect the unexpected!

I've desidered since I can't get my Nidoking Gorkamorka into R/S he's be killed and reincarnated as a Metagross.

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ThumbsOfSteel
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posted 08-11-2002 08:36 PM      Profile for ThumbsOfSteel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think you should make this a tourney. Mostly because this idea kicks ass, but also because you'd have a hard time convincing the local proles to play with this normally. Plus you wouldn't have to type much on the rules page, just: Rules: None. Easy, huh? BTW, great idea.

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"If you put that post in 00bersig, you owe every post ever made by MK a 6-foot monument made of platinum." -StarCaliber
"I'm pretty sure it says in there somewhere that Iron Tailing Mewtwos are half price." -Uiru
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From: Nowhere on a normal map | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
PikaCharma
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posted 08-11-2002 08:42 PM      Profile for PikaCharma   Author's Homepage   Email PikaCharma   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd LOVE to see it happen. The only clause I think has any right to exist at all is Species clause, and I'd even be willing to debate that one under certain circumstances. IMHO, most clauses are cop-outs. One of the main reasons I haven't gotten into G\S\C is becuz I didn't feel like learning all the new moves and how to use them, only to have them banned the second I put together a decent pokemon.

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Pikacharma's Bottomless Pit -- Vote 4 Mike, see a dead Togepi, and take the Pokemon Purity test!

"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something made up to scare us kids, like the boogieman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson

From: Never Land | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
jshadias
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posted 08-12-2002 12:24 AM      Profile for jshadias   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it would be great, except when your opponent uses 3 Mewtwos and 3 Lugias. I say you make a tourney with species clause and absolutely nothing else. A M2 counter will likely not live through 3 M2s. If you don't use species clause, well, I know what my team's going to be [Wink]

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What Nintendo doesn't want you to know
Uiru: "Now that we're all used to the rules, clauses and by-laws... what would happen to the metagame if every one of them were whipped away?"
GP-Chan: "id probably quit every battle, and not just every other battle."
ThumbsOfSteel: "Why, because they broke the rules?"

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Uiru
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posted 08-12-2002 12:36 AM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think a tournament would be an interesting test. Absolutely no rules... Heh heh heh.

Well, Species should probably exist in some form or another. Even with six Parasect; one Mewtwo of six is bound to have Flamethrower. Then again, the threat of six Mewtwos would bring Electrode back into circulation big-time; with Thunderwave, Mirror Coat and Light Screen, it'd be the perfect utility.

It would certainly be a fascinating experiment. [Big Grin]
~Uiru

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TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

AFRO NOOOOOOO!!!

From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
GP-Chan
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posted 08-12-2002 02:08 AM      Profile for GP-Chan   Email GP-Chan   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
what would happen?

id probably quit every battle, and not just every other battle.

hey, at least im honest. [Wink]

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yes, i know i suck.

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ThumbsOfSteel
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posted 08-12-2002 08:10 AM      Profile for ThumbsOfSteel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why, because they broke the rules?

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"If you put that post in 00bersig, you owe every post ever made by MK a 6-foot monument made of platinum." -StarCaliber
"I'm pretty sure it says in there somewhere that Iron Tailing Mewtwos are half price." -Uiru
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From: Nowhere on a normal map | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk
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posted 08-12-2002 09:37 AM      Profile for Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There'd be no "GP Clause", which causes any battle you quit out of to be an instant loss regardless of circumstance.

It sucks if it happens to you and you honestly had to leave, but it's in tournaments for a reason.

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From: Perth, Western Australia. | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Trebor
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posted 08-12-2002 12:48 PM      Profile for Trebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A species clause would have to be only rule, sine it would be crap to see 6 mewtwos. Just use:

M2
Lugia
Ho-oH
Celebi
Mew
Snorlax/Blissey

[Big Grin] . The problem is you have 3/4 psychics there so its up to you, cus youll probably be wiped out by T'Tar/Houndoom.

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!TREBOR!

From: B'Ham | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 08-12-2002 01:38 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only viable clauses, I think, are Species Clause, 00ber Clause, and POSSIBLY Item Clause.

I wonder what TGD would say if he saw this topic.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Uiru
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posted 08-12-2002 02:38 PM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is that the guy who goes "OMFG U ONLY GET ONE EARTHQUAKE TM U CHEATING BASTARD TAJIRI NAILS ME EVERY NIGHT SO I KNOW"? Yeah, I'd love to see his reaction. [Big Grin]

And Species is the only debatable one; Item and 00ber are *gone*. With no Sleep Clause, I can practically guarantee that Safeguarding Mewtwos will see a huge upsurgance. I might even use one myself. [Eek!]
~Uiru

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TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

AFRO NOOOOOOO!!!

From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Trebor
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posted 08-12-2002 04:33 PM      Profile for Trebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OOber clause and item clause are a definite no, since tha main idea of this is to widen the number of used pokemon. Species clause is to stop boring teams likes 6 unowns, 6 mewtwos and 6 smeargles. Use one, fine, but dont use more than one. Item clause is pointless, otherwise why would they give you two leftovers in game, and loads more when you trade a snorlax.

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!TREBOR!

From: B'Ham | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
jshadias
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posted 08-12-2002 09:54 PM      Profile for jshadias   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wuv your sig Uiru.

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What Nintendo doesn't want you to know
Uiru: "Now that we're all used to the rules, clauses and by-laws... what would happen to the metagame if every one of them were whipped away?"
GP-Chan: "id probably quit every battle, and not just every other battle."
ThumbsOfSteel: "Why, because they broke the rules?"

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Random Loser
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posted 08-13-2002 02:34 AM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Meh, I doubt it would take long for 6 M2s to become the dominant force. The ugly thing can handle just about any role, and better than just about everything else. Maybe drop Recover for Rest and fit a Blissey in... You can run the whole "there're are many M2 counters" line as much as you want, but how many of them can take out 2 of him? Dropping 1 for 1 isn't going to win you any battles...
From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trebor
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posted 08-13-2002 12:38 PM      Profile for Trebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thats why the species clause would be kept.

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!TREBOR!

From: B'Ham | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk
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posted 08-16-2002 03:26 AM      Profile for Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LanderZRPG:
Adding all the clauses in just eliminated the usefulness of many pokemon, and thus creating the typical 10-20 standards that everybody will use.
Toss out the clauses, and people will start using Gligar, and Xatu, and Seaking. It opens things up. With more variety comes more options, and more things that need to be countered.

You're completely mistaken. Adding more rules can easily increase the number of viable Pokemon (and interest in the game), the runaway success of Sucky Cup back in the days of the PBS is more than proof of this. Heh, it was almost impossible for me to fight a regular match for about two months.

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Mr.E
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posted 08-16-2002 08:26 AM      Profile for Mr.E     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sucky Cup, where mighty Victreebel ran rampant and everyone had a Persian.

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MickHale18: nevermind, I'll pull out for a second
MickHale18: *pulls out finger*

From: Munchkin Land, Oz | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk
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posted 08-16-2002 10:29 PM      Profile for Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought Persian got taken out.

Oh, and I think the best part was when Funkytoad told me to use a Kangaskhan with FE, so I did, and nobody realised that Stadium sharks for about a month.

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From: Perth, Western Australia. | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
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posted 08-26-2002 01:11 AM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excuse me for coming out of the blue like this.

I'd like to relate this to the card game Magic: the Gathering. I've become an expert at it over the past few years, and I've learned quite a bit about the formats of the game.

A new set for the game comes out every few months, with new cards and new potential strategies. Playtesters check these cards to make sure none are as broken as a lot of the old cards were. Those were the days where there was little playtesting. A few unbelievably powerful cards were created (like the $300 Black Lotus card), and they allowed kills basically on the first turn. They were subsequently banned from tournaments. Let's equate this to 00ber-ban/Guardian ban.

To solve the problem of the ever-increasing card pool, and the potential for huge combos, there are now two main formats. Extended covers sets from a long time ago until now, while Standard is just the most recent sets. They both change with time. For example, you could think of Extended as being YGSC, while Standard is GSC, with all the old RBY Pokémon banned. (Think of Extended as having all the RB Pokémon banned that weren't in Yellow.) When Ruby and Sapphire come out, Extended would change to GSCRuSa, while Standard would probably change to RuSa. And so it has been for a while now. Of course, changes have been more frequent, keeping the metagame on its toes. That, and the fact that there are tournaments, with actual prizes, in the form of actual money.

Standard games take about 7-10 turns to complete if the decks are designed to be fast, with a beatdown strategy. Slow, control-style decks (a little like a combination of Heal Bell and SST) usually take 20-25 turns or so. The card selection is so limited, there are few interesting combos.

Extended games typically are much faster. There are a lot more combos possible, but they're often too slow to work.

The fact is, interesting decks ( = interesting teams) are easier to create for older formats with more sets ( = formats with fewer restrictions), but the decks that are in formats with the fewest restrictions are often beaten in about 3 turns (about equal to a successful, immediate Nickwak sweep).

So, in case you skipped everything above to come straight to the conclusion: The fewer restrictions, the more interesting, insightful, synergetic teams are possible, and the faster those teams will have their rear ends served to them on a silver platter.

Oh! Before I go, here's an idea:

In Magic, there's a format called "Limited," where people gather, open booster packs, pass the packs around, take cards, and make a deck with the cards they've collected. If there's someone who can do pretty much the same thing -- assign rarities to Pokemon, moves, and maybe even DV sets, and find a booster pack algorithm to put packs together -- and find a programming genius to do the same, then maybe there could be a Limited Pokémon format. Limited would require trainers to think up strategies on the fly and be aware of ALL possible moves a Pokémon could have, and their respective rarities, for the best possible play. There would always be strategy and a challenge in every match, and significantly more skill than is found in Challenge Cup. If anyone's willing to take this on, I have a few more ideas/bits of knowledge to give, if they would contact me.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a blue to return to.

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Uiru
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posted 08-26-2002 01:34 AM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So I think what you're trying to say is that without rules, matches will be like two supernovae in a pissing contest. Fast, hard, and brutal, but mainly fast. That wouldn't be a problem with me after the PP wars I've gotten dragged into. It's so dull and lame, people winning by boring you to tears. (And the mobile adapter in Japan had a time limit of ten minutes, so you'd have to be quick.)
~Uiru

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TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

AFRO NOOOOOOO!!!

From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged


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