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Author Topic: NickWak question
MK
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posted 07-15-2001 12:24 AM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why make a big deal about baton passing agility and a substitute to Nickwak? Why not just send out Nickwak as a starter, use one swords dance, and then attack? Does he get killed right away or somethin? Thanks.

-MK


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Tghost
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posted 07-15-2001 12:33 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Without them, Nickwak is really too slow and fragile to survive long enough to take full advantage of it's Swords Danced up attack.
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 07-15-2001 12:34 AM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's that whole "Marowak being faster than Electrode with just one Agility" thing that'll allow it to get the jump on anything that doesn't have a Quick Claw.

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From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 07-15-2001 12:52 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, it's slower than Electrode by 2 points when Baton Passed 1 Agility.
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Random Loser
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posted 07-15-2001 01:37 AM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Damn.. now in crystal everyone's gonna be using water power 'trodes...
From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 07-15-2001 01:46 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nah, Water HP Electrodes only knock about half HP off Marowak (unless a RD is up, attached Mystic Water and a CH), Swaggering Electrodes would do more damage to it by resetting Marowak's attack. Theifing Skarmories are the thing that really screws it up, sometimes Countering Wobbuffets can KO Marowak with Counter....Quick Clawing Destiny Bonders got a small chance....
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Jolt135
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posted 07-15-2001 10:38 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Think. Do you really want a speed-188 starter that's weak to WTR, when about half the leads nowadays are Starmies? I say no, so lead with a BP'er. Scizor or (surprisingly) Girafarig, since the latter has no W4s.

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From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MK
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posted 07-15-2001 07:26 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you play by Stadium Rules, it seems kinda risky that 2 of the 3 Pokémon you send out depend on making this work. Sure it's a good idea, but what if you send out Jolteon, enemy sends out Rhydon. Jolteon Agility, Rhydon Earthquake. Can Jolteon survive that? If Jolteon can survive, the agility would more than likely ensure that Jolteon would go first next turn & could Baton Pass his/her way out, but, that may not save time for a substitute. Any thoughts?

-MK

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"The streets shall flow with the blood of the non-believers" -Bevis

[This message has been edited by MK (edited 07-15-2001).]


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Bartlebee
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posted 07-15-2001 10:49 PM      Profile for Bartlebee   Email Bartlebee   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now you're trying to second-guess the metagame. Welcome to the real world, MK.

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Or if you're feeling evil use some good g/s tradebacks such as starmie with t.wave - Mewmwan's advice for beating Mewtwo


From: Your mom's ass | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MK
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posted 07-15-2001 10:58 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What's wrong with trying to second-guess the metagame (whatever that means)

-MK


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Donald
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posted 07-15-2001 11:53 PM      Profile for Donald   Email Donald      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MK:
Sure it's a good idea, but what if you send out Jolteon, enemy sends out Rhydon. Jolteon Agility, Rhydon Earthquake. Can Jolteon survive that? If Jolteon can survive, the agility would more than likely ensure that Jolteon would go first next turn & could Baton Pass his/her way out, but, that may not save time for a substitute.

You're darn right it's not. If you're going to pass after taking one Earthquake from Rhydon, down goes the Jolteon. BP always goes SECOND.

Actually, NickWak and Scizor have a mutualistic existence... Scizor's main threat (Fire) is easily disposed of by the Marowak, and then Scizor can set it up to sweep.

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From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 07-16-2001 01:49 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Scizor can't really co-opt with it that well becuase it can't get a Subbie up. Marowak really needs a Sub to protect it to SD up, and from Selfdestructing Snorlaxs. Baton Pass doesn't go second, it goes depending on the speed like normal attacks. Rhydon cannot survive. Sure, Scizor seems like a really good idea at first, but so does Jotleon, infact, Jolteon seems better becuase it discourages Water Pokemon, who could easily get a dent in Marowak if timed right. Out of all the Agility Baton Passers, the options are quite simply Girafarig, Scizor, Jolteon and even Ariados.

Girafarig has the advantage of being able to Baton Pass Amnesia, even if it is a little frail.

Jolteon discourages Water Pokemon, and can setup a Substitute.

Scizor can force switch to Fire, and maybe a Sandstorm or something, but mainly, if your going to use Spikes to boost Marowak's effectiveness (knocks 10 Pokemo off the non-OHKO list), you really should be using Forretress, and then it's 2 Pokemon 4x weak to Fire. Nice way to design a team based around a rather frail Pokemon, Marowak.

Araidos can use Spider Web, locking in an opponent that Marowak can easily setup against, if it can survive.

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"no! i'm the diet coke of evil! only one calorie! NOT ENOUGH!
*melts into evil-envious puddle*" - spunman


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Jman
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posted 07-16-2001 10:55 AM      Profile for Jman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cmsnrub25:
You're darn right it's not. If you're going to pass after taking one Earthquake from Rhydon, down goes the Jolteon. BP always goes SECOND.

Not true. Baton Pass is like any other move in speed priority. That may be true for GSbot(I don't use Baton Pass too much), but as for the gameboy game, I'd follow Continue's research on the move. You can check out the page here.

For those who are lazy monkeys, here's the quote right from the page:

"The Pokémon that uses this move will be switched for a Pokémon of the player’s choice. The switch will occur with the same speed and priority as any normal attack used by that Pokémon."

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Metalloid Research!!!!11!11
<Dunsparce> AHAHA, JMAN IS TEH SMRT


From: da burgh | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jman
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posted 07-16-2001 11:28 AM      Profile for Jman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you lead with Forretress, you can Spikes and Explode. Then, switch to Scizor. Substitute and Amnsesia as usual, and then Light Screen, and Baton Pass to NickWak. The use for Girafarig's Amnesia can be replaced by Scizor's Light Screen(working for 5 turns, of course). Those 3-4 turns will generally allow you to kill the water-type they have(they will most likely switch to that pokemon).

The problem, of course, is the two 4x weak to fire pokemon that are preatty-much necessary to make this strategy work.

Because the Baton Passer is more important, why not have a back-up baton passer? Jolteon fills this spot well.

So final team:

Forrtress(spikes, blowup)
Scizor(Baton pass stuff)
NickWak(Sweepage)
Jolteon(Back-up Baton Passer)
Sweeper #1
Sweeper #2

The sweepers clean up after NickWak goes down. The average Fire-type dies to the Forretress Explosion.

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Metalloid Research!!!!11!11
<Dunsparce> AHAHA, JMAN IS TEH SMRT


From: da burgh | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
The-Boss
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posted 07-16-2001 12:13 PM      Profile for The-Boss   Author's Homepage   Email The-Boss   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tghost:
Nah, Water HP Electrodes only knock about half HP off Marowak

I Laugh if someone did that to me.
like trying to do CC against a ghost type.. ha

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geese
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posted 07-16-2001 01:32 PM      Profile for geese   Email geese   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tghost:
Out of all the Agility Baton Passers, the options are quite simply Girafarig, Scizor, Jolteon and even Ariados.


I don't necessarily think that Agility passing is the only way to go with NickWak. What about...

Umbreon
*Mean Look
*Batton Pass
*Sand Attack/Double Team
*Body Slam
@LeftOvers

The idea being to ML first, then if you still have the type advantage, SA until comfortable. BS is there purely for paralysis support for NickWak. I'm in two minds over SA or DT. I'm leaning more towards SA because of a certain Psyche Upping cow. Now Umbreon doesn't have too many serious counters other than Machamp.
So to back it up...

Gengar
*Destiny Bond
*Psychic
*Perish Song
*Rest
@Mint Berry

He either takes Machamp down with him, or Perish Songs others.

Opinions anyone?

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"If there is today which exceeds me who does not care even if it is slow yesterday" - Team Mario's attempt to convince you to join them in the official F-Zero Advance championship.


From: London | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
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posted 07-16-2001 02:16 PM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The point of Agility is that he can then OHKO just about everything that shows up.. even most of those 22 will die half the time. W/ the Umby you're guaranteed to kill the 1, but he's got no chance of surviving the next 2, thanks to the free shots and his low specdef. And the problem w/ Umby isn't machamp, but that whenever most people see him they're going to bring out their roarer.

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"how can u tell a shiny pokemon from a normal pokemon?"
-Team_Rockets_Arcanine @ The Pokegym


From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 07-16-2001 08:36 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*Points out Marowak's Special Defense is 258*

That's actually not that bad. A major improvement over RBY, anyway.

------------------
"It looks like this is my lucky day. I'll take 'The Rapists' for 200."
"That's 'Therapists,' not 'The Rapists.'"
-(Saturday Night Live Celebrity Jeopardy Skit)

AIM: Nobie20
ICQ: 71976989


From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
NickWhiz1
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posted 07-16-2001 08:50 PM      Profile for NickWhiz1   Author's Homepage   Email NickWhiz1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*points out another good way to defeat Marowak*

Player2 sent out Heracross!
Player1's NickWak at 100%.

Player1's NickWak used Rock Slide/Earthquake!
(barring flinch) Player2's Heracross used Counter!
Player1's NickWak fainted!

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"Aww, does the poor widdle Death Stawmie need mommie to kiss away its boo-boo?" - White Cat

"Ugh, that's impossible!" - R-2 Rival, after Belly Drum Lax OHKO'd Mewtwo with Double-Edge


From: Toledo, OH, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
MK
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posted 07-16-2001 11:06 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Counter will do Heracross little to know good if it is 100% knocked out by Marowak's attack. If you think you are against a Pokémon that you think might know counter & are using a Marowak, don't attack right away, do a swords dance or two or three, then attack (if you think you can surive long enough to do this). A thing can't counter you if you downright kill it.

But, you do have a valid point, counter is good to some extent, but, can your countering Pokémon survive? There lies the game...


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Charmeleon42
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posted 07-17-2001 12:48 AM      Profile for Charmeleon42   Author's Homepage   Email Charmeleon42   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm...

Next time I see a Scizor, remind be to whip out mah Charming Espeon!

Seriously, though... if they do that, then you could have a pr0bl0rm.

Because of this revolution, I will have no problems countering any wak crack that befalls mah tema!11!

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The Sheep suddenly seems more powerful.
The Sheep suddenly seems more powerful.
The Sheep suddenly seems more powerful.....


From: Mountain Dew Land | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 07-17-2001 01:55 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The major problem with teams desinged around JoltWak, is that can't do anything if Marowak is defeated, which is a possiblity, given the amount of counters disscussed here, and random chance like CHs. You would then need not only a backup Baton Passer, but a backup Baton Target.

MK, dude, Swords Dance more than once and your attack will be decreased. It's at an effective 1016, you can't go higher. Heracross with Counter seems a bit too specialized, and would really be predicted. It's not that extremely hard to setup NickWak twice if needs be, just adds a bit more risk into it.

Just, use a damned Skarmory. NickWak can't deal with Skarmory, and Skarmory can easily be taught Thief given it's current moveset options. Bingo, problem solved.

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"no! i'm the diet coke of evil! only one calorie! NOT ENOUGH!
*melts into evil-envious puddle*" - spunman


From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged


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