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Author Topic: Sharking's Ethicality Revisited
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 12-03-2001 05:01 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, so long without a reply and this topic is STILL on the first page. I guess it’s time to bump it one last time. Besides, I have new arguments, and I don’t see why anyone would disagree with them.

Mr. K: What do you mean by “cheating?” If it means “playing by anything other than the officially stated rules,” then yes. Strategists like me WOULD be cheating.

My question, then: Why should we be forced to cheat in order to play the game this way?

I’m sure almost all of us here would agree: If there was a separate game that was like Pokemon, except it didn’t require so much time (or a Gameshark) to get a fully satisfactory team, so that the multiplayer battle (rather than spending all that time training Pokemon) was the only focus, most of us would probably buy that game instead of the currently existing one.

After all, I’m fairly safe in saying that the only reason K and company don’t like playing the game this way is that the officials behind the game aren’t advocating that form of play (and because you’d need a Shark to go strictly by the Strategist ruleset).

Progress on my strategy-only Pokemon-like game is slowing down, but if and when it materializes (and if I can get around the inevitable copyright infringement lawsuit from NOA) I see no reason why a Strategists’ game would be illegitimate. It wouldn’t require a Shark, everyone has access to the same things, it won’t require an absurdly large amount of time to train monsters, and no one will try and hide secret game mechanics from the bulk of the players. Seeing as we are all Azurians, masters of the game’s strategic element, I know that most of us would prefer a game that plays like that, and the only obstacle for the anti-Sharkers is the fact that such a game is “not official yet”.

Well, there is one way to change that.

If we have to cheat in order to play a better game, that probably means there needs to be a new game. That’s all we’re really wanting. Most Strategists don’t play they way they do JUST because it involves an external device. Eventually, we just want a game where no external device is necessary to get the desired result, at which point playing that game would no longer be considered cheating.

But until I or someone else makes such a game, the Shark has to suffice. And we all continue to wonder why Nintendo doesn’t see what we are after.

The real question is “Why don’t players like us get recognition?”

Only NOA can truly answer that one. The rest of us can only wonder.

Now, to get to work on my eighth NOA Rant...


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
Member # 13

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posted 12-03-2001 05:26 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by K
quote:
I spent a quite an embarrassingly large number of hours breeding a single Pokemon for Little Cup this weekend.

Why didn't you shark them? It saves time you know.


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
Member # 13

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posted 12-03-2001 05:45 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If Everyone sharked max stat pokemon, then everyone would be on equal footing. Or better yet, if nintendo designed each species of pokemon to be endowed with one set of genes (and based personal stats soley on stat exp), then no one would be at a disadvantage for having raised a pokemon with shitty stats. (WHich sucks)However, I think most of the people here who don't like gamesharks would also dislike it if this happened (I would love it-- because everyone, regardless of how many hours of their life they threw away towards the game, would not be at a disadvantage towards anyone else), seems like anti-gamesharkers want to make everyone spend as much time playing pokemon as they do. I think that's wrong of them. The next two statments do not have to be mutually exclusive:

"I love to play pokemon"
"I have a life outside of pokemon which demands more of my time than re-pettitive levelling"


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
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posted 12-03-2001 07:11 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jolt135: If it means “playing by anything other than the officially stated rules,” then yes.

Yes, breaking the rules is a pretty fair definition for cheating.

If we have to cheat in order to play a better game, that probably means there needs to be a new game.

I don't buy the premise that your version of the rules is "better", but, given that, if a new game is created, with new rules, then clearly that game could be played without cheating.

On the other hand, I would have almost no interest in playing a game like the one you described. I think I've played 2 games of PBS, even tho I spent tons of time mucking around with the code. Playing PBS just doesn't interest me, and neither would your game.

The real question is “Why don’t players like us get recognition?”

Because you're not playing by the existing rules, and are, thus, cheaters.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this, as long as you only play with your own kind. The objection is to you attempting play with your own version of the rules in public competition.

10K: If Everyone sharked max stat pokemon, then everyone would be on equal footing.

The game, however, is very clearly designed to reward freaks who have tons of time to burn. If you don't have the time to burn, then the game is not really for you, if you care an awful lot about max stats and such.

If some new game comes along with a method for allowing all non-Sharkers to come up with identical Pokemon, then I would have no objection to it, except that the game itself better be much more interesting than something like PBS.


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Beckachu
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posted 12-04-2001 04:48 AM      Profile for Beckachu     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Last year, I recieved a GS as a gift around the time I bought Yellow. I've only ever used it on that one game, because even though I only used it to help evolve a Caterpie and a Weedle, I felt really guilty doing so, I was never going to use them in battle, just getting my pokedex filled up, yet I felt incredibly bad about it incase it damaged my game, for when I did battle. I've barely looked at my Yellow version since, I only used it recently to obtain a twisted spoon for my Alakazam (bred and naturally raised to l100). I catch and raise all of my pokemon naturally, and by breeding hundreds of Eevee I got a jolteon with max attack and speed. I wasn't bothered about attack, but I was very pleased when it showed up to have max speed.
I have a few pokemon with a max stat, because I spend hours breeding them the long way (I don't have doduo or dodrio mode on pokesta2) and I know it sounds stupid, but I'm proud of the ones I've bred and raised myself, especially when they have a max stat.
I have Gold + Crystal, and I played the two together on two gameboys for months now trying to get pokerus to help me raise their stats up. My hard work paid off and now I'm raising a team of pokerus immune pokemon.

I'm a very moral person, and I believe that it is an unfair advantage to shark up pokemon in minutes when people spend months perfecting pokemon. The people I've met who shark seem to have no shame in doing it, no remorse whatsoever. Yet I used mine once and still hate myself for doing so.


From: UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pokegod
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posted 12-04-2001 01:41 PM      Profile for Pokegod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This debate is going in circles. IMHO, sharking is only cheating if you do something outrageous (ex. giving illegal moves, getting yourself up to level 255, or altering DV's). If you shark in the limits (getting monsters you accidently missed, or changing a move you meant to put, or putting your guys up to level 100 with max stat exp.), you are only doing something you would normally be able to do, only faster. You can complain all you want about that, but unless the trainer admits to it, you have absolutly no way of finding out that they did it, so there really isn't any point in getting all bent out of shape about it.

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Pokegod... yeah, that won't look dumb in 10 years

From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 12-04-2001 09:50 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another example of the If the Referee Doesn't See It, It's Not Cheating school of thought...
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Pokegod
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posted 12-05-2001 10:43 AM      Profile for Pokegod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, hire some Referees to watch every Pokemon player in the world and make sure that they don't shark!

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Pokegod... yeah, that won't look dumb in 10 years

From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
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posted 12-05-2001 06:14 PM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the next time that I play Monopoly with three of my friends, I'll start the game owning Park Place and Boardwalk with hotels on both, and I'll begin with an extra $500,000. Afterall, it's possible to obtain, and I'll just be saving time.

--Meowth346


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 12-06-2001 09:08 AM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think its wrong to use a gameshark just as long as you use it for legal stuff like sharking for moves that you've missed on a certain pokemon or your too lazy to breed moves on it. I have a gameshark and well i use it, and i do those things mentioned and also i think it saves a hell of alot of time becuase breeding does take alot of hours and i'd rather just teach it the moves when i catch it rather than going through a 30 hour process to get one max stat pokemon... I have friends that shark and one of them has a Sporing Celebi...XD

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: o_O ]

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Weezing!


From: Hackensack, nj | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pokegod
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posted 12-06-2001 01:14 PM      Profile for Pokegod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What's so bad about being at level 100 and at max SE faster anyway? You would likely never battle someone until you have those maxed out anyhow, legit or sharked.

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Pokegod... yeah, that won't look dumb in 10 years

From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 12-06-2001 05:19 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Meowth346:
I think the next time that I play Monopoly with three of my friends, I'll start the game owning Park Place and Boardwalk with hotels on both, and I'll begin with an extra $500,000. Afterall, it's possible to obtain, and I'll just be saving time.

--Meowth346


$500,000?

The game only has $15,340, so half a million WOULD be impossible.


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 12-06-2001 08:00 PM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
o_O :
I don't think its wrong to use a gameshark just as long as you use it for legal stuff like sharking for moves that you've missed on a certain pokemon
Which is like putting a hotel on Boardwalk just because I was on Parkplace and rolled a 5...

or your too lazy to breed moves on it.
Which is similair to starting Monopoly with property owned...

Pokegod:
What's so bad about being at level 100 and at max SE faster anyway? You would likely never battle someone until you have those maxed out anyhow, legit or sharked.
I battled recently with a bunch of untrained level 100s. Lost almost every battle, though. But, if I used a Gameshark and won those battles, I'd feel really rotten. Just me, though.

Jolt135:
The game only has $15,340, so half a million WOULD be impossible.
You can buy packets of money in stores. Probably to replace lost money, though. However, fel free to re-read my last post as "and I'll begin with an extra $10,000," as that'd be more realistic. Nya, next time I refer to a board game, I'm actually taking a look at the pieces included first! ^_^;;

--Meowth346


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
NOBODY IMPORTANT
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posted 12-07-2001 08:57 AM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Which is similair to starting Monopoly with property owned...

Not exactly. Again, maybe you should look at the game before referencing, as Monopoly has official rules for starting a game with properties owned. That would be more like the funky egg...

To put what you were trying to express in other game terms, it would be like starting a game of clue and knowing who the suspect that did it was, or what they did it with, etc...


From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 12-07-2001 10:45 AM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, I can't cheat in Monopoly because it has rules against it. Yet, I see people post things like, "If Nintendo has another tournament, I'm buying a Gameshark," when there's a rule against using a Gameshark on a game pack that'll be used in the tournament. The differance?

--Meowth346


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psykloak1
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posted 12-07-2001 01:41 PM      Profile for psykloak1   Author's Homepage   Email psykloak1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that using a GSed team on an innocent, home grown team isn't that fair. But do use GS. If you and your opponent are both using GS and both agree on using it, ten who cares. its like clauses. I think when u battle in Nintendo turnis, they make you use an item clause, but if two guys wanna get together and play w/o it, more power to them.

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-psyk
NeptuneCircle.com

From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Donald
Bob the Builder
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posted 05-31-2002 08:30 PM      Profile for Donald   Email Donald      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stupid bump/delete gnomes...
From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged


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