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Author Topic: Sharking's Ethicality Revisited
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 08-31-2001 08:08 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, for the first time, I've seen a cfalcon post that is a total load of horseshit.

And your post seems somewhat emotional or something. You seemed to clip out inflammatory snippets of text without their support, then attack them as if they had no support (you didn't do this in all cases, but I've got examples).

Just for the record, we've always had this exact disagreement. I didn't think this was nows to you here...

I realize that my post was retarded in length, but I went to efforts to stress certain things you ignored.

Gene sharking[b]

cfalcon: But whether it takes 30 minutes or 3 days, both are pretty short amounts of time, and a sufficiently prescient trainer will not need this out anyway.

Mr. K: 30 minutes is completely different from 3 days, and 3 days does not guarantee a perfect, or even above average Pokemon.
[i]

[b][i]What else did I say on the subject?

The simple fact is that, barring gene sharking, all the rest does is save time.

We are talking about doing only things that everyone can get done (with gene sharking the only possible exception).

Your levelled team should be very close to a sharked team (the genes are the biggest problem I face, and they've ended up addressed parenthetically a lot recently).

You ass/u/me that I think that the gene sharking is golden, when in fact I kept stepping around it because it's much harder than accepting the stat EXP and EXP (which I have successfully modelled based on EXP points per minute to determine how many hours I have left on a given monster). I've bitched about it plenty, especially Hidden Power, because you could theoretically go on forever and never see a max statter... in fact, if you play the game like a normal person, that's likely.

Undectectability[b]


cfalcon: It's entirely undetectable...
Mr. K: Moot point. This is krap, stop bringing it up.

[b]Did I really assume that because it's undetectable and you can't be caught it's OK? Did I say that?

Three blocks related to this:

The only rules you violate are the ones about training your monsters naturally. The rules your opponent doesn't need to know (and can't verify).

Dishonest? What's dishonest about different means to an end, means that don't hurt anyone and are indistinguishable from the end point?

It's entirely undetectable (meaning that you could just as easily accuse my monsters who've never touched the shark as being sharked), and really does generate the same mathematical play experience.

You quoted around this one. When I say "my monsters who've never touched the shark", I'm being pretty literal. They might have recieved sharked (unlikely), duped (very likely), MissingNo.'d, or MegaMem'd TMs and PPups, but that's it (if you feel that the infinite item glitches present in pokémon are as bad as Gameshark, I really have no conception of how to argue that point, except that it is built into the game. The Japanese versions also had infinite item glitches too, and I find them an endearing and fair part of any game they find their way into. <no I don't accept illegal monsters as fair just because they were organic: later games and rules have made it clear that >100 monsters are absolutely forbidden, while the item dupe cheat appeared in Nintendo Power! (at least I think it did)> ). So I'm not being hypothetical when I say that. Here I'm pointing out that I don't know, or have the right to know, any data about my opponent's gameboy except to make sure all his monsters are legally exceptible. I'm not claiming that something is OK because you don't get caught: I'm just pointing out that two numbers with the same value are actually the same number.

Right afterward you address the rest of my quote:


cfalcon: ...really does generate the same mathematical play experience.
Mr. K: No, it absolutely does not because, mathematically speaking, all your Pokemon are better than mine could ever rationally be expected to be.

Well, not *mine*, but I'll get into that point later. I'll guess this is the general case. Your statement, like your earlier one, makes the tacit assumption that I'm gungho about maxstatters.


The rest of it

cfalcon: Why does everyone actually assume that the one and two player experiences are the same?
Mr. K: Since when does anyone have to defend the simple fact that modifying RAM is cheating??

Since I looked up cheat in the dictionary. I'll grant that modifying RAM has huge potential to be both unbalancing and unfair, but I'm still not certain why sharking up a fair (again, I'm shirking at including max stats in this definition) team qualifies as cheating, just because two numbers that have the same value are the same number: all of the sharks advantages that I'm defending here end when you eliminate "time spent in preparation" as a variable- something you don't beleive should be done.


cfalcon: However, you need to see that when you sit down to play a link battle the bulk of the one player game has no meaning.
Mr. K: Only for you, because you choose to ignore that part of the game. However, you are playing something other than Pokemon. You are playing cfalcon's Special Brand of Pokemon That Isn't Quite Pokemon.

This still goes under "numbers that have the same value are the same number". The one player has no meaning for the link battle because I can get there by levelling and a sharker can get there by sharking, and both the sharker and I can play the exact same game from your perspective (assuming he doesn't max his genes). The only part of pokémon I have ever compromised with is max stats: it's too improbable to assume I'll see max stats someday. I set reasonable limits (usually 1/256, no worse) and go until it happens. I usually get a better deal than my worst case scenario this way, but it isn't quite the same as max stats. I don't feel that I have any entitlements because I enjoy the one player game and other's don't.


I don't want my opponents hampered by a lack of time. I don't understand why someone would.

Huh?

If it were one they didn't need, they could trade it for a Pokemon they can't get, or a max-stat Pokemon, or another TM. However, all of these things are meaningless to you, because you cheat.

Where the fuck did this come from? Before the glitches, before the shark, I sat merrily there, playing through to get a second TM I needed (I don't remember which one now, I figured a few would be necessary in duplicate). More importantly, how did you come to the conclusion that I cheat? While I will acknowledge that one of my link battles had two monsters that were sharked (actually 1.5, one of them was at 79 and I needed him sooner), that was against someone who had sharked illegal moves, so I didn't feel too bad. I've got shitloads of sharked things, and if it came down to needing them I'd use them, but everything I've played against people at tournaments and whatnot has actually been levelled normally.

One thing I will freely admit to is the use of in game item duplication. That was a no-brainer, Satoshi's intentions be damned. I wouldn't call that an unfair advantage, but I'm sure the Dreamer would (I'll address him in a second). It's bogus to make a distinction about who trades stuff (me or someone else), and he clearly pulled that one out of his ass. Satoshi might have had lots of intentions, but if he ended up writing a different game, so be it.

Where do you get off bringing all this to the second person and pointing it at me, anyway? My tournament battles were legal as sane people go (My sharked monsters didn't make an appearance, etc.: I instead spent the time before the tournament sharking down the levels on pkthunder's monsters so she could compete in poké cup). I have an oodle of sharked monsters, but they don't really see tournament light. If I had to, I would (sentimentality should not impede success), but I haven't needed too yet.


cfalcon: He might have an advantage, but it's really minor. It would probably be a fair fight.
Mr. K: That's so friggin' bogus. "He might give himself an unfair advantage, but it'd be fair." Bullshit!

Since his *ONLY* advantage over me would be a couple points of defense and a lot of attack (Mewtwo) or a similar combination (my monsters have very good stats), I believe it would be a fair fight. Maybe it wouldn't be for you, but that was first person when I said it.

...as long as his monsters are legal, I don't care.
Of course, because you have already cheated.

Here it is again. I don't care, not because I've cheated (which I didn't, but would if I needed to: for instance, if I had arrived at tournament to find that Mewtwo was banned or something, I would need a new team around a different metagame), but because I want my opponent to *not* be crippled so that the battle is an actual challenge.


cfalcon: The only rules you violate are the ones about training your monsters naturally.
Mr. K: OK, so you're not cheating, but you're violating rules.
Next.

Fair enough.


Just have the balls to call it cheating.
Stop insulting me by saying that hacking the fucking RAM to make the game conform to your specs is not cheating.

Well, come on! Do you think that cheating semantically describes this? You must, because you keep harping on it. Does having the ability to hack the RAM give you some kind of advantage? OF *COURSE*! Who on God's earth would claim otherwise? I make the (correct) claim that this advantage is confined to things outside the sphere of the link duel. That's why I make the claim at all. Do you miss you on the single player experience when you shark? Yes. Was that intended? No. Does it make the fight less fair? No (except for the touchy point about genes). That's why I don't feel it's cheating- when you sit down and play someone, they aren't cheating. They aren't violating any rules of the game you are playing.

You won't accept this, because you believe that the play experience is wholistic.


You acknowledge that someone who spends more time at the game should reap the rewards, and even quote several of my statements and disagree with them. That sounds rosy, but you skipped the important part of my initial post: the part where you say "I don't like games where spending money makes you a better player", and I point out that expending such temporal resources on pokémon is the *same thing*.

Suffice it to say that the Dreamer is largely wrong about Magic.

"So, yes, single cards sales it is the way Wizards intended it to be..."

No it isn't. It's the business model that was largely forced on them. Any number of interviews shows that they weren't afraid to print broken cards as rares, because never in their wildest dreams would someone spend over $100 on magic! It completely blew them away!

The INTENTION is made clear in books and interviews, and shows that the commercial cow that came about was not the intended product. When they saw the sales, then....

Unless you stop cheating, Captain, and play the game how it was meant to be, you'll never see how and why it works.

Holy fucking shit. I can't even respond to this one rationally.

I think I'll go get food or something. I'm sure I'll piss off pkthunder and post later.

Maybe after she's asleep.


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 08-31-2001 09:07 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, I notice now that you were talking around the max stat issue. That is gracious of you, but still irrelevant.

Look.

This is a totally stupid debate.

You are using a cheating device. You are hacking the RAM. You are clearly doing that which is not intended with the game. You admit that you are violating the rules.

You are cheating.

It doesn't make you a bad person or mean that your soul will damned to Hell, but it means you are CHEATING.

You are skipping the first 8 innings of the game because you don't like them.

If you want to be technical, it's so cheating that Nintendo even says that all Sharked Pokemon are not legal, even tho, admittedly, they couldn't possibly tell.

Sharking is arguably smarter, certainly more efficient, perhaps even more fun in a way, but there is no way that what you are doing is not cheating.

You are not supposed to have an infinite number of L100 Pokemon of all types, of any configuration you desire, at any time you see fit. You just aren't.

If you can't admit that, then I have nothing more to say on the matter.

You won't accept this, because you believe that the play experience is wholistic.

No, this has nothing to do with my naive notions about how the game would be played in a perfect world, and it has everything to do with the fact that you are changing the rules of the game to suit your needs which is, in fact, cheating.

That sounds rosy, but you skipped the important part of my initial post: the part where you say "I don't like games where spending money makes you a better player", and I point out that expending such temporal resources on pokémon is the *same thing*.

Yes, but whether or not you or I like a game has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we can just abandon certain rules we don't like without it being cheating.

Just say it!

Shout it from the rooftops..."I'm a cheater, and I love it!".


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Subtallica
Farting Nudist
Member # 1101

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posted 08-31-2001 09:56 PM      Profile for Subtallica     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
HOLY SHIT i can not belive it

Restarting the game in order to get more pokémon and items is duplication, and therefore, cheating - TGD

HOW!? how is that cheating, all i hear from you is that its all about the hours put in, the hours put in in training, the hours put in in raising, the hours put in for picking and choosing, HOURS HOURS HOURS, so tell me how the hell would it be illegal to start a different game over, and log some of you precious HOURS to get a TM, its not Cheating at all, no MIssingno, so Gameshark, in no way is there any cheating involved in starting the game over and putting in the hours to get a TM, so even tho i will get a "IM right your Wrong Attitude" because certain people around here have a somewhat Dick-in-the-ass mentallity, but seriously, how in the hell could starting a game over to get a TM cheating, this absolutley blows my mind

- - - - -
The ingorance in your words merely reflects your own ignorance - MK


From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Footitch
Farting Nudist
Member # 663

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posted 09-01-2001 12:53 AM      Profile for Footitch   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I swear to God, I love you all (except TGD). I'm joining the debate team the day school starts. Anyway...

First off, respect my balls, using a Gameshark is CHEATING. My post asked earlier what was WRONG with cheating things that can be done normally in the game. I should have clarified this a little more, when I say "normally," I mean definites, such as getting a thunderbolt TM. You get one every time you play. The same is NOT true for max stat/perfect gene Pokes. I am very much against those. I actually stated something contrary to that in my last post, but thats because I was stupid and couldnt properly use english grammatiks.

Ok...

First of all, the only person who answered my question was Twinkle, and basically she was saying that it was unethical. Though I disagree, I'll hand it to her for being honest and having a code of morals. Congrats.

The rest of you just made stupid analogies. It doesn't matter though. I'll say it one more time (correctly now): If I shark something that can be done normally (NOT GENE EDITING/MAX STATING, I mean TM sharking), what's wrong with it? If you think it's the time put in, then your just being sore, because face it, the end result is the same. Why is someone who spends a million years training a Pokemon and getting the right movesets (I'm not referring to getting good genes, NOTICE THIS) any better than someone who does the same thing in 5 minutes?

Many of Mr. K's analogies weren't good for the situation. Stealing/Embezzling Money is illegal because in the end someone gets hurt. When you shark, that is not true. These analogies don't work. The one about the baseball game was kinda good, but the fact is, in order to play a baseball game, you have to play all 9 innings. This isn't in the instructions for playing pokemon (with an opponent), because the instructions for playing Pokemon (with an opponent) begin the moment you link together and the battle starts. If you disagree with this, then it entirely comes down to a pointofview debate, and we should stop arguing right now and start talking about the moment human life actually begins.

"It's entirely undetectable...

Moot point. This is krap, stop bringing it up."

This is my entire point. What is wrong with it?

One more time, for emphasis, I will say that I AM NOT REFERRING TO GENE SHARKING AND MAX STATTING. I AM REFFERING TO MOVESET AND LEVEL SHARKING. Thank you.


From: ===D ()-: | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 09-01-2001 02:21 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, here's what I object to, and why I am so annoyed with this line of thinking...all your rationalization are belong to bullshit.

To recap:

1. It is not cheating, because it is only cheating a little bit.
2. It is not cheating, because it's hard to cheat.
3. It is not cheating, because I know what I'm doing.
4. It is not cheating, because I don't like the rules.
5. It is not cheating, if I can get away with it.

And, the key factor here, which seems to tie most of you together...

6. It is not cheating, because I don't want to be called a cheater.

I cannot think of a clearer example of cheating than using a Game Shark. It is the very essence of what cheating is all about.

Some of you seem to think that because you cheat within certain parameters (ie, "I only cheat a little"), that that's not cheating. You might be cheating with more respect than others, but it's still cheating. This is clear because you have made up your own personal rules about the game. You can't do that without a device that allows you to modify the rules of the game.

As for what's wrong with cheating...I can admit that there are some cases in which I'd consider it OK. For example, if there's "No Holds Barred, Shark Til You Drop" Tourney, then, within that context, Sharking is probably not, technically, cheating. I would describe it as a contest in which cheating is acceptable, but that's just a technicality.

The main issue, however, is that the default condition should not be cheating. The people who don't cheat do not need to justify their methods to the cheaters. It is up to the cheaters to attempt to defend themselves, and so far "it's convenient" is the best any of them have come up with.

That don't cut it.

If two people go into a match with the explicit understanding that you're going to cheat, well, then, morally I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't have a problem with turning the game into anything else you like with another willing player. If two people decide to play ping pong and have each point worth 37 points and hitting it on the second bounce is OK, well, there's nothing at all wrong with that...except that they aren't really playing ping pong.

I don't subscribe to the idea that there is some "higher law" created by Nintendo, the breaking of which exposes a lack of morals and ethics. The ethical problem is not with regards to breaking The Law of Nintendo, but with behaving in a way that is unfair to another player.

If everyone you play with agrees that Sharking is just fine, then there's no moral issue.

The issue I'm talking about is having a match with a stranger, with whom you've made no agreement that cheating is OK.

Footitch: Stealing/Embezzling Money is illegal because in the end someone gets hurt. When you shark, that is not true.

Giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent "hurts" them. That is, the crime is not victimless.

The one about the baseball game was kinda good, but the fact is, in order to play a baseball game, you have to play all 9 innings.

And in order to play Pokemon, within the rules, you can't cheat. You're just not playing Pokemon any more if you cheat, just as you're not really playing baseball any more if you change the rules.

In both cases, you can do it, if you want to, but it changes the nature of the game.

This isn't in the instructions for playing pokemon (with an opponent), because the instructions for playing Pokemon (with an opponent) begin the moment you link together and the battle starts.

OK, so (I know cfalcon hates this analogy) if I use steroids, that's OK because the game doesn't really start until the moment the event begins, right?

If you disagree with this, then it entirely comes down to a pointofview debate, and we should stop arguing right now and start talking about the moment human life actually begins.

You're saying that anything that happens before a game begins is acceptable...which would include, I suppose, sabotaging your opponent's tennis racket?

"It's entirely undetectable..."

This is my entire point. What is wrong with it?

Since when is being able to get away with something a moral justification? Why do you think it is OK to cheat, simply because you can't get caught?

Look, I'm not saying I wouldn't cheat. cfalcon took clones of my L100 team and Sharked them into a Poke Cup team. I've never used them in competition, but I might some day. He changed a move or two and the Levels (obviously).

This is within my personal sphere of what I'd be willing to do, but I still consider it "unethical", and I certainly don't have the cajones to say that it's not cheating. I have all sorts of justifications for doing it (the DVs were not changed, the team sucks anyway, I don't have the time, wah wah wah), but to say that it's not cheating is completely asinine.

I am willing to label myself as a cheater, if I ever use that team in competition. That is because I have cheated.

If you people can't do that, then you need to grow up.

As for what's wrong with that situation? If someone wants to do what I've done without cheating, they'll have to get 6 new Pokemon, new TMs, spend more time training, make sure the Pokemon max out on stat exp without Levelling too quickly, etc.

How can anyone possibly say that having cfalcon spend a few minutes doing this for me does not give me an unfair advantage against someone who had to go thru all this themselves?

As for what's considered "cheating" in the area of restarting games, Missingno., etc., all that is in a much greyer area. Personally, I think using Missingno. is clearly cheating, because its inclusion in the game was not intentional. Taking advantage of bugs is not what I'd consider fair play, but since it does undeniably exist in the pure form of the game, I can see how someone could say it's not cheating.

As for trading with yourself, restarting games, etc., I just don't know about that. I don't have a strong enough opinion either way to argue either side, but I lean towards restarting your game being cheating and trading with yourself as not cheating...but that's hard to say.

What's not hard to say is that modifying your RAM directly is cheating every sense of the word.

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Mr. K ]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 09-01-2001 04:22 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops...in ignoring all of TGD's posts, I must have missed this one...

pkthunder: No where in the "rules" of the game does it say that when you hook up for a link battle that both players had to have spent hours catching and training decent Pokémon.

Let's just say that Sharking is outside the boundary of normal rules. By the very nature of all games, altering the rules to suit your needs is cheating.

There's no other way for me to be able to compete with the caliber of Stu's decks unless I "cheat."

Fine, but don't say you're not a cheater, then (assuming your assessment of how Magic is supposed to be played is correct). Again, it doesn't matter if you don't like the rules. That's just not a relevant point at all.

K, I think you just have a problem because it involves hacking RAM.

You're damn right I am. It is a video game. Hacking RAM is cheating. No excuses.

People who come into a battle with max-stat pokémon that were sharked are cheaters.

But if a person who is constructing a team for link battles decides which 6 pokémon should be on his team, decides which moves each one gets (regardless of how many TMs the game thinks he should have), spends a little time catching the pokémon with better-than-average stats, and then sharks them their moves and sends them up to level one hundred, that person is NOT CHEATING.

Moose pucky.

You can't make up your own rules, just because you find some to be inconvenient.

This is total hypocrisy...

"Breaking the rules in this way is cheating, but breaking the rules in this other way is not cheating...because I say so."

Besides, you just said that you are willing to disregard things like the numbers of TMs the game thinks you should have, ie, you are breaking the rules. If you break the rules, you are a cheater.

You and cfalcon both admit to breaking the rules, but yet refuse to call yourselves cheaters.

You can ignore everything else above if either of you can tell me why you quite freely admit to breaking the rules, yet refuse to call yourselves cheaters.

What Pokemon needs is something like "PunkBuster" for Counter-Strike. It is a program that is run voluntarily that (mostly) prevents you from cheating. If you want to play on a server that doesn't require PB, then you can expect to run into cheaters from time to time.

But, if you go to a server that requires PB, then you can be as sure as is possible that everyone is playing by the same rules.

I know there are technical issues that would prevent this from working on the Game Boy, but I would love to see punks busted in Nintendo competitions...

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Mr. K ]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 09-01-2001 09:29 AM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oy, so many posts that I seriously don't believe. Won't even bother replying to most as I'm short on time.

Jolt135
In conclusion, the game NEEDS its sharkers. They've really showed NOA what the game is really about, and they should continue to do so.

Location: Japan. Use of PAR: non-existant among all but a few players. Without using a "Gameshark," Japanese players vigorously trained and traded, building really great teams. No "Gameshark" was involved. They didn't need "Gameshark" to win battles.

Location: America. Use of Gameshark: very high. Although I can only judge Japan's use of PAR by what a lot of my friends living there tell me, I can easily say that about 29 out of 30 Pokémon players that I see use Gameshark. And that's not talking about the people online, or it becomes about 9,999 out of 10,000 people that I see use Gameshark on their Pokémon games.

I don't understand what you mean by "Gameshark has showed us what the Pokémon game is about." What is about that required cheating to reveal? You'd better not say advanced strategy, because I had that long, long ago without any "Gameshark," and still do have strategy without cheating or taking shorcuts.


The Great Dreamer
Restarting the game in order to get more pokémon and items is duplication, and therefore, cheating, just like using a glitch.
Then, why can I store all of my Pokémon from Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Gold, Silver, and Crystal, and all my items, TMs, etc. on Pokémon Stadium 2, then start new games on them?
Or, let's go on a more basic level. If I start a new game on Red, and pick Squirtle and catch Dugtrio, then use the Fissure TM on Dugtrio, but want it on Squirtle (now Blastoise,) is it cheating for me to trade Dugtrio and Blastoise to a friend, start a new game, then trade for them back to have two Pokémon with Fissure? Of course, that's speaking in pre-Stadium terms.

The difference between Gameshark and anything Nintendo endorsed is that the Nintendo endored products are designed to help gain more TMs, etc. But, even then, you must replay through the game, unlike a Gameshark where you type in a code and have the TM. I suppose that defeating Lance in Stadium2 and "relearning" a move is also cheating, because you should have to start raising a new Pokémon to get that move on a Pokémon, eh? And because that's the only way to get certain attacks on certain Pokémon such as Mewtwo, etc., that are caught on high levels, right?

Nintendo's own hacking clone machine ..., fact is that there is no natural way
By the analogy that Nintendo uses a "hacking clone machine," do you then agree that Pokémon Stadium 1's prizes of Bulbasaur, Squirtle, etc. are not gained "naturally?" You didn't get them on Gameboy, you got them from an "outside source." Therefore, they are not natural, right?

No matter how you look at it, the "Mew" and "Celebi" from Nintendo are designed to be provided that way just as Charmander from Stadium1.

... and trainers that I consider trustworthy enough may train outside leaguetime, I will inspect their carts from time to time.
And no one will claim, "unfair!" due to the fact that their time is "limited" no matter how much free time they have, but the people that you "trust" can train whenever they want? Don't let me tell you how to run things, though. Just bringing up something to think about.

When it comes to pokémon with exact genes, meaning that they have genes exactly how you want them, it is a rare feat.
For the curious, the chances of getting the exact desired genes are:
Breedable Pokémon: 1/128+1/64 (3/128) [1/128 is the chance of getting the right Ditto.]
Non-Breedable Pokémon: 1/65,535

And the desired Hidden Power (With an Attack Power of 70)
Breedable Pokémon: 1/32
Non-Breedable Pokémon: 1/64

Numbers may be off as I'm in a slight hurry and am doing the math quickly in my head and based on my memory of the formulaes.


I'd add more, but I've gotta' be ready to leave in only three hours. Let's see how many Gamesharked Pokémon I can count at FunFest and see how many Gamesharks and Brainboys I can count there, as well.

--Meowth346


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
Farting Nudist
Member # 117

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posted 09-01-2001 01:18 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Footich,
Thanks, I love you too...

Meowth,
"is it cheating for me to trade Dugtrio and Blastoise to a friend, start a new game, then trade for them back to have two Pokémon with Fissure?"
Yes, because it cripples the Trade factor and Pokémon is an RPG, sacking your character to have the next get the stuff is cheating because it is a form of duplication.

"The difference between Gameshark and anything Nintendo endorsed is that the Nintendo endored products are designed to help gain more TMs, etc. But, even then, you must replay through the game, unlike a Gameshark where you type in a code and have the TM."
Nintendoctrine knows shit about Pokémon and how it works except for marketing and getting cash.
Missingno, Lab Trick, restart duplication and any other cheat glitch they print in ther magazine are all cheating.
If it cripples the Trainning or Trade balancing variables, it is breaking the rules.
"I suppose that defeating Lance in Stadium2 and "relearning" a move is also cheating, because you should have to start raising a new Pokémon to get that move on a Pokémon, eh?"
No, the recall is bound by natural moves only and it does not duplicate anything, hence, not cheating.

"You didn't get them on Gameboy, you got them from an "outside source." Therefore, they are not natural, right?"
It is not an outside source.
Outside your GB, yes, but the Nintendoctrine influenced Stadium series are part of the Pokémon game series, therefore, it is an inside source. The Nintendo hack machine is not part of the game, it only creates, designs and supplies pokémon, it's just a Nintendo approved glorified shark.
If you want to use it, fine, I'm not because I know that the source it's not "native" to the Pokémon game series, but that's just me.

"And no one will claim, "unfair!" due to the fact that their time is "limited" no matter how much free time they have, but the people that you "trust" can train whenever they want? Don't let me tell you how to run things, though. Just bringing up something to think about."
Very good point, but it is the only way Trainers can wonder and train in the Mineral version series and be there for different events throughout the week and the league will only be limited to once a week meetings, I think that is more unfair.
Unless I find a better solution, trainers not allowed to train outside league time would just have to bite the bullet because I'm not going to compromise the purity of the league's game enviroment for a few complaints. Thank you.

"[1/128 is the chance of getting the right Ditto.]"
Yeah, but this is only a basic breeding ditto, the specialty Hidden Power dittos need higher genes in Attack, Special and Speed, no?
This is where I am right now, hunting for ditto in Yellow using Dodrio mode.

"Non-Breedable Pokémon: 1/65,535"
I'm never going to get my fun house mewtwo magician;
Metronome
Mimic
Psych-Up
Recover


- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Footitch
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posted 09-01-2001 04:06 PM      Profile for Footitch   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. K, I never once said it wasn't cheating. It is. I'm saying it wasn't unfair. Cutting your opponent's tennis racket is different.

Giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent "hurts" them. That is, the crime is not victimless.

It doesn't hurt them, and it's NOT unfair. I just spent less time reaching the same goal then my opponent did. It certainly isn't ethical, but in a gameboy game, I'm not really thinking about ethics...

In both cases, you can do it, if you want to, but it changes the nature of the game.

Sadly, that's true, but when you have so many people cheating, it's almost unavoidable...

It's official, TGD is a fag, he just said he loved me.


From: ===D ()-: | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
NickWhiz1
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posted 09-02-2001 12:12 AM      Profile for NickWhiz1   Author's Homepage   Email NickWhiz1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember reading this topic before.

It wasn't the same topic, and it wasn't the same people, but you could say it is the same in all other ways.

I think it was called "Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited", and it became one of the most infamous threads in Pokemon message board history (well, at least Azure's board ^_^;; .

I just have one thing to say.

I agree with TGD/Mr. K that Sharking is gay.

(Well, they've used different, more extreme ways of saying it, but that's besides the point.)

Then again, I guess, under TGD's "rules", I'm just as bad as a sharker because I multiply items.

Give me a break.

It's OK with me if it is within the constraints of the game and does not involve the use of a Gameshark/Game Genie/Brainboy/etc.

That means I believe that multiplying items and the Mimic/Transform trick are perfectly fine.

I am, however, against all forms of sharkery.

*watches TGD call him a hypocrite*

*kicks TGD*

*runs*

- - - - -
"Young love, with horns!"
-Toonami review of Ico (PS2)

[Rockzilla] Remember now, excuses are like asses, everybody has one and they all stink.


From: Toledo, OH, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 09-02-2001 12:54 AM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Footitch,
I was being sarcastic you dim wit...

NickWhiz,
They are not my rules, they are Satoshi Tajiri's rules, he wants players to trade and if you duplicate or hack there is no point in Trading and Trading helps balance the game so there is no need of any bans or clauses but you wouldn't understand that being a clausewhore...and yes, you are a hypocrite...
*counters kick into Ankle Lock*
WOOOO!!!!!*Kurt Angle*
*makes NickWhiz tap out*

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Subtallica
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posted 09-02-2001 10:27 AM      Profile for Subtallica     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
they are Satoshi Tajiri's rules, he wants players to trade and if you duplicate or hack there is no point in Trading and Trading

So then how is trading TMs illegal???

- - - - -
The ingorance in your words merely reflects your own ignorance - MK


From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 09-02-2001 01:02 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Subtallica,
Trading is NOT illegal, wich is what Game Freak wants us to do with the game.
Duplicating is illegal, because it cripples the Trade characteristic of the game.

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: The Great Dreamer ]

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Subtallica
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posted 09-02-2001 01:25 PM      Profile for Subtallica     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Restarting the game in order to get more pokémon and items is duplication, and therefore, cheating - TGD

So now wait is it, or is it not cheating?

- - - - -
The ingorance in your words merely reflects your own ignorance - MK


From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 09-02-2001 02:16 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NickWhiz1:
I remember reading this topic before.

It wasn't the same topic, and it wasn't the same people, but you could say it is the same in all other ways.

I think it was called "Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited", and it became one of the most infamous threads in Pokemon message board history (well, at least Azure's board ^_^;; .


Maybe it's something bout the word "revisited" that guarantees the topic will get a ton of replies.
Besides, this topic is so long you could publish it as a book. Call it "The Great Sharking Debate" or something.


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 09-02-2001 02:46 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Subtallica,
Maybe you don't understand what Trade means.
Let's ask Webster what Trade is, shall we?
Webster says;

Trading:
1 obsolete : to have dealings : NEGOTIATE
2 a : to engage in the exchange, purchase, or sale of goods b : to make one's purchases : SHOP <trades at his store>
3 : to give one thing in exchange for another


Moving items or pokémon between your own cartridges AND THEN starting a new game in the cartridge that the items or pokémon came from is DUPLICATION, since you're using a loop hole to duplicate what you already have.

The Trading variable of pokémon refers to Trading, as per Webster definition above, with other Trainers.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand...

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Subtallica
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posted 09-02-2001 03:46 PM      Profile for Subtallica     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Belive me TCG dont make this a IQ battle because you wont win, your narrow mind, is proof enough of your own ignorance...when you have two packs, you trade between yourself... thats it, its not duplicating, it is the way Tajiri or whoever made the game intended it to be, you know why its like that..because the game was not made for
in-game balance, trade balance or anything..Its not about Raising legally or illegally, its not about all the tight ass crap you have been spewing around..you want to know wat the real reason this game was made for....Money..hard cash, that is the only reason out that the game is being made, to make money...

The reason that they made the game like they did, two versions, 1 TM for each, is so that people would go spend another 30 bucks on a different color, so that Nintendo, and the Gods you worship there, can have a few extra bucks in there pockets...The only reason Nintendo doesnt like GameShark is that now people dont need to get another cart to get a TM or a pokemon not in that Version..tis the only reason....

Nintendo couldnt give a damn about how we play the game, the rules, tournaments nothing..all they care about is how much they get paid

- - - - -
The ingorance in your words merely reflects your own ignorance - MK


From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Footitch
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posted 09-02-2001 08:28 PM      Profile for Footitch   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TGD, So was I...

Anyway... what's with this!?

Restarting the game in order to get more pokémon and items is duplication, and therefore, cheating - TGD

That's bullshit, what are you eating for breakfast? It suggests in the Prima stratedy guide to do the exact same thing, except with Pokemon. This is in no way cheating, it is totally fair, but it requires quite a bit of time.

- - - - -
Yeah, you smash those buttons you beat that thing!


From: ===D ()-: | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 09-02-2001 09:24 PM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, in order for my argument to make sense, you have to be in the mindset that the Pokemon world in the game, is real.

Now, let's assume, that in the real world, there are parallel dimensions. Somebody invents a machine to travel back and forth between these dimensions. They find an extremely rare item, and only one exists in each dimension. So, they travel through as many dimensions as possible, grabbing up the duplicates of this item, and take it back to their home dimension. Do you get the picture? This, in the real world, would not be considered cheating, it would be using your resources to gain profit. Got it?

Now, to bring that analogy to Pokemon. Each game, as I see it is a parallel dimension. There is a Mewtwo in every RBY copy, a Lugia and a Ho-oh in every GSC, despite the fact these are supposedly rare legendary one-of-a-kind birds. There are a finite amount of TMs in every dimension. Let's then say, you have two of these dimensions that you are playing through, a Silver Game, and a Gold Game. You then decide to reset your Silver game, in order to garnish yourself a new Mud-Slap TM. This would be literally killing off an entire dimension, but that is made easy in the game, all you have to hit is "New Game".

So, now, your game has literally lost one dimension, and started another. See what I'm getting at? Reseting your game, merely creates a whole new game. Now, you are playing in that game, and if you decide in that game, to attach your rare and valuable Mud-Slap TM to a Magikarp, and trade it for another Magikarp that comes from your player in your Gold game, another dimension, then that is simply using your resources to gain, essentially, a profit, not cheating.

There is no Rule against reseting your game, if there were, the game could be coded to literally remove the New Game option after you have saved a game. It however, is not.

Does that make sense?

- - - - -
My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge


From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 09-03-2001 03:41 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I fail to see how this debate has gone on so long...

OK, anyone who says sharkin, braining (XD), or Genieing is NOT wrong is a moron. The fact is, using a external device to get masterballs, pokemon, TMs, ect is illegal. However, duping is not so clearly defined. I myself have no problem with it, but I can see why others do.

I would make a longer message, but my lower half of my body seems to be numb...


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 09-03-2001 08:17 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Although this post is likely to get overlooked, I’m going to make an attempt to organize this thread.

I have 5 “articles” that deal with sharking. From now on, we will try to determine why or they should or shouldn’t be “ratified,” and if not, then if a rewording would make it acceptable. In each future post to this, be sure to specify the article(s) you are referring to.

ARTICLE THE FIRST: That in single-player, non-link “Pokemon” gaming, any player can use a Random Access Memory (“RAM” altering device (hereafter referred to under the descriptor of “Gameshark”, although names for it may vary) to alter any data in their own Red, Blue, or Yellow (“Chromatic” or Gold, Silver, or Crystal (“Metallic” data group (“Game Pak” , and will not be discriminated against in battling based solely on this criterion.

ARTICLE THE SECOND: Part 1: That since the writers of the Nintendo Power magazine work as part of the Nintendo of America Corporation, and said corporation is responsible for the “Pokemon” series of games, that anything published in the Nintendo Power magazine can reasonably be determined to be intended as public information, and no one can claim that someone has an “unfair advantage” because of knowledge of such information.
Part 2: That since the process of specifically timing the release of power flows while linking two systems from the “Game Boy” series of handheld gaming systems, in order to copy one set of data to another “Pokemon” Game Pak without losing it on the original “Pokemon” Game Pak, has appeared in Nintendo Power magazine, that it is not “unfair” to make use of such a process.

ARTICLE THE THIRD: Part 1: That since the Nintendo of America Corporation benefits from consumers buying more than one of the six true “Pokemon” Game Boy Game Paks, that it reasonably follows that having multiple “Pokemon” Game Paks is not unfair.
Part 2 That since owning multiple “Pokemon” game Paks is not unfair, combinations of a player’s “Pokemon”, moves, and items on a team that can be achieved, but only through ownership of multiple Game Paks (but can be simplified through the use of a Gameshark), may not serve as grounds for disqualification in a battle.

ARTICLE THE FOURTH: Whereas: raising a Pokemon from the point where the “Level” variable for a “Pokemon” is 5 to the point where said variable equals 100 requires, based on the value of the “PokemonIdentity” variable, an increase in the “PokemonExperiencePoints” variables of either 799900, 999875, 1059725, or 1249844, and since battles in the area of the game called “Unknown Dungeon” in Chromatic games or “Silver Cave” in Metallic games trigger an increase in these variables by an average of 1000, that 1250 battles are reasonable for increasing the “Level” variable to 100.
Whereas: since, using the “Dodrio Game Boy Tower” feature of the “Pokemon Stadium” series, an average of 8 battles each minute can reasonably be initiated in said areas, that it takes a maximum reasonable average of 1250/8 = 156.25 minutes of dedicated play in order to raise a newly hatched “Level 5” Pokemon up to “Level 100”.
That: Since 156.25 minutes is a negligible figure compared to the amount of time the “Pokemon” games have been released, using a “Gameshark” to immediately trigger an increase in the “Level” variable will not hugely imbalance the battling abilities of competitors in a tournament for battling “Pokemon,” that no player be discriminated against by reason of using a “Gameshark” to alter the “Level” and “PokemonExperiencePoints” variables.

ARTICLE THE FIFTH: Whereas: there are two bits assigned to “PokemonDeterminantValues”, and each one contains two variables. Each variable has 16 possible, randomly assigned settings from 0 to 15, yielding a total of 16^(2*2) = 65536 possibilities for this set of four “DeterminantValues” variables, and each is equally likely to occur.
Whereas: It takes a reasonable minimum of 18 seconds to run into a Pokemon, catch it, look at its stats, determine if all of the variables are equal to 15, press A, B, Select, and Start if they are not, and get back to the original point. Thus, on average, it will take (18 seconds * 65536 setings) = 1179648 seconds = 327.68 hours of nonstop dedicated play in order to find such a Pokemon, and after that much time, reasonable sleep will be required and fatigue will definitely slow down the “repetition rate” to longer than 18 seconds. The average time thus required in order to find a Pokemon whose “DeterminantValues” variables are all equal to 15, without reasonable expectation of bodily harm, is approximately 500 hours. Since a player’s team is made up of 6 Pokemon, the time taken for 6 of these “Straight 15 DV” Pokemon can be found by multiplying the preceding figure by 6 and adding time for long term “aversion of fatigue”, resulting in a minimum average of approximately 3225 hours, or 4˝ months. Because of the high magnitude of this figure, such a time could not reasonably be obtained without interfering with the player’s long-term career or academic training. When this time is added in, the final total becomes 5100 hours, or over 6 months to obtain a team of six “Straight 15 DV” Pokemon.
That: Since 5100 hours is a very significant portion of the amount of time the Pokemon series of games has been released, it is reasonable for a player, assuming they have not used a Gameshark to alter the “PokemonDeterminantValues” variables, to ask that their opponent also only use Pokemon that have not been altered in the aforementioned way. (If the opponent DOES shark DV’s, and this includes the NOA reps, then you are entitled to as well.)

There you have it. If you read the fifth article carefully, you’ll see that I have abandoned one of the points I mentioned in the original post: being able to set DV’s for a Hidden Power. Since each DV setting is equally likely, you should need to find the right Hidden Power setting just like finding the max statters. While the odds are slightly better, looking for 5 max statters and one Pokemon with optimum Hidden Power would still take about 4800 hours, which is still significant.

So, for future posts, I ask you restrict it to commentary on one of the five Articles that appear here (and be sure to specify which article(s) you are referring to), or else the proposal of additional Articles. I don’t want this to get boring, but it needs to be organized or else people would just post “SPAM in disguise” messages.

Of course, most of the argument here is going to revolve around Article 4. I’ll start there.

I WILL say this:
Sharking isn’t really in line with the “in-character” RPG approach to Pokemon.
(Of course, under that approach, NO Mew or Celebi, even one given to you by NOA, would be either.)

However,
”Cheating” isn’t the right descriptor, at least not for the kinds of sharking being discussed in this thread.

It’s just an “alternate path” to the optimum team. Consider this analogy:

Back in the 1800s, everyone washed their clothes by hand. But later on, some people made the washing machine. As people realized what it could do, more and more people used that method to get their clothes cleaned. But there were still purists out there who said stuff like “No one should use that. Getting your clothes cleaned should be difficult.” Of course, they were laughed at.

Likewise, everyone trained their Pokemon naturally for a while. Then, people figured out how to use the Gameshark. It wasn’t popular at first, but the number of shark users is growing all the time. Although the Shark can be used for a lot more, most of us are being fair and only using it for things that COULD be achieved through natural gameplay. Of course, there will still be contradicting people; the “Amish” to the Gamesharking environment. They think it should be very hard to train Pokemon, because 1) they happen to HAVE that kind of time on their hands, and 2) they figure that by placing a restriction on what people should be allowed to do, there will be less competition to them, which is about the only way they’ll ever win. As long as it’s just used to save time (except DV/gene sharking, of course, because saving that much time is DEFINITELY unbalancing to people who can’t afford a Shark), no one should truly have a problem with other people doing it. That’s like the Amish saying “Everyone should have to be like us, because we’re a bunch of sadistic freaks who can’t stand other people being able to do the same things as we do but in less time, but instead of us adapting to them, they need to adapt to us because then we get to see everyone else suffer.”

See my point?

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ]


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 09-03-2001 09:21 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolt135:

See my point?

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ]


Errr no. I think your analogy is simply rubbish and incorrect. I doesn’t matter what method people use for washing their own clothes because they do it in the privacy of their own home – it doesn’t effect anyone else. They don’t battle their clean undergarments against each other. People don’t bring laundry to competitions where the person with the cleanest laundry wins, nor do they bitch when they get beat by people who machine-washed theirs instead of hand washing. This simply does not apply to pokemon.

Basically you say that Amish people try to impose their values onto others that don’t want those values just to be sadistic. This is racist, whether you intended it to be or not, and probably not true. You say that people who don’t want to cheat shouldn’t impose their values on those who have “adapted” by using the gameshark, yet in the same breath list a bunch of laws that legalizes sharking in the general case whether people want to cheat or not. That’s called being hypocritical.

I think branding the gameshark as an evolutionary step in pokemon is laughable. If you really want to use the Amish example then it is more applicable to people who play RBY and those who play GSC. Some people prefer to play RBY for whatever reason and not GSC, and don’t want to play against those who have GSC. So what happens in this situation? People who want to play RBY play others who do the same- ditto for GSC. What happens with Amish people? They live separately from the rest of society so they can enjoy the way they want to live. This is a better analogy but it still doesn’t really apply to pokemon.

Your “laws” assume sharking is ok for the default case. This shouldn’t be the case. Sharking should be ok if both combatants agree that it is ok beforehand not by default – you shouldn’t try to impose your way of thinking onto others. Neither should they. If you can’t come up with some mutually agreeable rules then don’t battle, plain and simple.

As far as I can see from this topic the main points have been:

i) People who have a shark don’t think sharking is that bad. (Well duh)
ii) People who do not have a shark don’t like sharking (duh again)
iii) Sharking is cheating by dictionary definition.
iv) Using a shark is ok if both people use it or are not bothered by others using it. Sharking is no longer cheating in this case as you’ve modified the rules to include it.
v) Responsible sharkers don’t like to be branded as cheaters (probably because they play in environments like point iv)

Which really boils down to ‘The gameshark is ok to use, if you and your opponent think it is ok to use’, which is a matter of two opinions can never really be decided for the general case. I wish nintendo would publish some official tournament rules for what is and isn’t legal, like the DCI publish tournament rules for M:TG. Then again we wouldn’t have had this great discussion now would we?

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: j-br ]


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 09-03-2001 11:08 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
j-br: I wish nintendo would publish some official tournament rules for what is and isn’t legal...

In Nintendo's official Tournament Rules & Information in the section entitled Basic Rules for ALL Tournaments the very first rule is as follows:

quote:
"You may not use any Pokemon that have been altered or boosted by any game enhancing devices. Doing this may result in game program malfunction and will result in your disqualification from the competition."

Nothing in there about Sharking responsibly or when it's convenient.

The intent could not be clearer.


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 09-03-2001 11:33 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
j-br: I wish nintendo would publish some official tournament rules for what is and isn’t legal...

In Nintendo's official Tournament Rules & Information in the section entitled Basic Rules for ALL Tournaments the very first rule is as follows:

Nothing in there about Sharking responsibly or when it's convenient.

The intent could not be clearer.


Thanks Mr. K, I didn't know they had published official rules for tournaments. So for Nintendo tournaments, no shark. In this case the gameshark really is cheating as whether it can be used or not is not up for debate. They make the rules and I suppose if you don't like it don't go.

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: j-br ]


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
I pay schoolgirls to verbally abuse me.
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posted 09-03-2001 02:14 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like how Jolt thinks using a shark is not cheating.
From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Manuel Calavera
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posted 09-03-2001 03:17 PM      Profile for Manuel Calavera     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zerot:
I like how Jolt thinks using a shark is not cheating.

It depends HOW. Say you killed Ho-oh by accident. The move turned into a critical hit and did that fatal extra few HP of damage. You want Ho-oh. Nobody around will trade with you. You don't want to restart, because it bloody takes ages. The most attractive option? A certain game altering sea inhabiting carnivore.

- - - - -
Gates is the Saddam Hussein of the consumer technology world. ~ Mr.K


From: Newcastle, Home of Geordies, Brown Ale and The Wildhearts | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 09-03-2001 04:33 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Subitchica,
First of, Nintendo DOERS NOT make the game, stupid bitch, GAME FREAK does...
2nd, like I said BEFORE (I'll repeat myself so your down syndrome tumored swollen brain can understand or at least I give it the benefit of the doubt) restarting the game to get more stuff IS a method of DUPLICATION, that is why is CRIPPLES the TRADE variable that the CREATOR of Pokémon(you know, the person that knows more than YOU about the game)wants to encourage in HIS game.
Pokémon is NOT like a card game since it has an RPG aspect to the game and has OTHER elements that make it go BEYOND the mere strategy a card game has to offer...
DO YOU UNDERRSTAND THE WORDS I AM TYPING?

...you know what? From now on I'll just ignore anything you say since it's not even worth trying to explain you anything, if your mind was at least as open as your anus you might just get a thing or two, but until pigs fly, bye...

....pft, bloody cunt...

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
I pay schoolgirls to verbally abuse me.
Member # 1295

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posted 09-03-2001 07:47 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Manuel Calavera:

It depends HOW. Say you killed Ho-oh by accident. The move turned into a critical hit and did that fatal extra few HP of damage. You want Ho-oh. Nobody around will trade with you. You don't want to restart, because it bloody takes ages. The most attractive option? A certain game altering sea inhabiting carnivore.


I fail to see how this justifies cheating.


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Digital Kaizeren
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 2081

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posted 09-03-2001 09:34 PM      Profile for Digital Kaizeren   Author's Homepage   Email Digital Kaizeren   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
::sits there smacking her head against the keyboard because this topic is so utterly pointless and unimaginably stupid to be arguing over::

Ok people. Let me put it REAL simple. Pokemon, Pocket Monster, pokemonsta, whatever you want to call it, is a VIDEO GAME. A simply programmed game with a few cute monsters that you run about and train.

Now in this game some people decide that they do not want to use a game enhancer and train out there monsters the long way. And some people enjoy flipping a switch and having the same-or greater effect as the person who doesn't 'cheat'. Those are the two types of players, sharkers and trainers.

Now, cheating on the Pokemon game, what will happen to you if some person catches you? Well, if it's in a tournament you'll most likely get disqualified, that is if you were a sloppy sharker and made the cheating obvious. But if you do subtle sharking, like not making a magikarp have all 999 stats, but instead sharking legal moves and such, then most likely you won't get caught. But the worse thing that could ever happen to you (unless if you're going up against a hulking il-tempered kid who found out you sharked...then you may face some injuries) but that's rare and you could sue the person for beating on you. But that's off topic. My point is that there are really no consequences for cheating on a Pokemon game. Where on the other hand, there is a penalty if you're caught cheating on taxes, or a loved one, etc etc etc.

Want it blunter? People quit this stupid pointless argument. You're not going to change the views of anyone, whoever is a sharker will remain a sharker and see it to be ok to cheat while the trainers will think that sharking is horrible and that people should never cheat and lead a complete honest life in the world of pokemon.

It's a mere game, it's not football, it's not soccer, and it's not like any national game where cheating is horribly penalized. It's Pokemon. Plain and simple.

- - - - -
Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality


From: Somewhere in the Chronicles of time and space where cows are cheesesticks | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
Member # 42

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posted 09-04-2001 02:54 PM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NickWhiz, They are not my rules, they are Satoshi Tajiri's rules

Show me where Satoshi Tajiri said that restarting your game and trading with yourself is cheating.

C'mon, I dare you.

- - - - -
"Anybody gone into Whole Foods lately and see what they charge for arugula?"
-- Barack Obama, campaigning in Iowa


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
pkthunder
I look like your mom.
Member # 67

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posted 09-04-2001 06:15 PM      Profile for pkthunder   Author's Homepage   Email pkthunder   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You may not use any Pokemon that have been altered or boosted by any game enhancing devices. Doing this may result in game program malfunction and will result in your disqualification from the competition.

Yes, this would mean that using pokémon that have been altered with a Gameshark is against tournament rules.

But, this would also mean that using Golem is also against tournament rules, because that pokémon can only exist by altering or boosting an existing pokémon (Graveler) using a game-enhancing device (game link cable).

Or maybe I'm just taking this too literally...

Mr. K:
OK, so (I know cfalcon hates this analogy) if I use steroids, that's OK because the game doesn't really start until the moment the event begins, right?

Bad analogy. Sharking pokemon to level 100 is not like giving them steroids. Its more like fast-forwarding them through puberty. A fight between a full-grown man (level 100 pokémon) and a boy (not level 100 pokémon) would not be fair.

How can anyone possibly say that having cfalcon spend a few minutes doing this for me does not give me an unfair advantage against someone who had to go thru all this themselves?

It is an advantage, but not an unfair one (see article four).

Oh, and in response to article five:
"Thus, on average, it will take (18 seconds * 65536 setings) = 1179648 seconds = 327.68 hours..."

If there are a possible 65536 possible settings, and the distribution is uniform (equal probability of any one event occuring), the average would be half of that.

Average number of tries before finding a max stat pokémon equals total number possible stat combinations divided by 2!

So by your estimation methods it will take at least 3 months, not 6 to get the perfect team.


From: Broomfield, CO | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 09-04-2001 10:16 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Manuel Calavera: Say you killed Ho-oh by accident. The move turned into a critical hit and did that fatal extra few HP of damage. You want Ho-oh. Nobody around will trade with you. You don't want to restart, because it bloody takes ages. The most attractive option? A certain game altering sea inhabiting carnivore.

Yes, that is certainly the "most attractive" option. It might even be the one I would choose in that situation (altho, probably not). But that doesn't mean it's not cheating.

pkthunder: But, this would also mean that using Golem is also against tournament rules, because that pokémon can only exist by altering or boosting an existing pokémon (Graveler) using a game-enhancing device (game link cable).

Or maybe I'm just taking this too literally...

Yes, you are, and you know it. The intent of the rule is perfectly clear. I'm not even going to bother debating whether or not a link cable is a "game-enhancing device", because the premise is so silly.

Me: OK, so (I know cfalcon hates this analogy) if I use steroids, that's OK because the game doesn't really start until the moment the event begins, right?
pkthunder: Bad analogy. Sharking pokemon to level 100 is not like giving them steroids. Its more like fast-forwarding them through puberty.

The point is that time saved is in itself so incredibly important that it changes the nature of the entire game.

I spent a quite an embarrassingly large number of hours breeding a single Pokemon for Little Cup this weekend. That's just a single Pokemon, and its stats were fair from great. They are probably even below the stats that cfalcon would accept using his "responsible" cheating methods.

This is the way the game is designed to work.

Having any Pokemon, at any Level, with any stats, with any configuration of attacks, and with any item, at any time is simply not the way the game is designed to work.

If you are semi-reasonable person with any limits at all on your free time, you are most likely going to end up with Pokemon on your team that are not as strong or not configured as closely to how you'd like as cfalcon's "responsibly" Sharked Pokemon.

I still don't have an Electabuzz on my team, because I haven't found one with decent enough stats to be worth the spectacular effort it takes to raise one to L100. And I am a nut for the game. Why is it fair that cfalcon can immediately just Master Ball a few dozen of them and pick the best one?

It is an advantage, but not an unfair one (see article four).

Total and complete BS and you know it.

All this just because you're afraid to call yourself a cheater.

Just suck it up.

I'm a cheater, and I'm not afraid to say it. Why is it so hard for you?


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
pkthunder
I look like your mom.
Member # 67

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posted 09-05-2001 08:04 AM      Profile for pkthunder   Author's Homepage   Email pkthunder   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Digital Kaizeren:
Want it blunter? People quit this stupid pointless argument. You're not going to change the views of anyone, whoever is a sharker will remain a sharker and see it to be ok to cheat while the trainers will think that sharking is horrible and that people should never cheat and lead a complete honest life in the world of pokemon.

In a debate competition, like some people participate in high school, the point is not to try to change the mind of the other team, or the judges, or the audience. You score points on how well you argue.

I think with this group here, we're all just a bunch of peacocks, flashing our purty feathers. Or goats, ramming horns. It's actually a mating ritual among humans, I think. The more good arguments cfalcon makes, the more sex he gets (j/k).

Debate is healthy. Let it go.

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: pkthunder ]


From: Broomfield, CO | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
pkthunder
I look like your mom.
Member # 67

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posted 09-05-2001 08:30 AM      Profile for pkthunder   Author's Homepage   Email pkthunder   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. K:
"Or maybe I'm just taking this too literally..."

Yes, you are, and you know it.

Yeah, I know - I was just fucking around.

I spent a quite an embarrassingly large number of hours breeding a single Pokemon for Little Cup this weekend. That's just a single Pokemon, and its stats were fair from great. They are probably even below the stats that cfalcon would accept using his "responsible" cheating methods.

But he would spend an entire weekend training a pokémon for little cup as well. He wouldn't cheat. I've had to hear him go on about what he's going to have to do to get a good little cup team.

Why is it fair that cfalcon can immediately just Master Ball a few dozen of them and pick the best one?

Because you can get unlimited Master Balls, too.

"It is an advantage, but not an unfair one (see article four).

Total and complete BS and you know it.

No, I don't.


From: Broomfield, CO | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Uiru
Sketch Molester
Member # 437

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posted 09-05-2001 02:17 PM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With each post I read, I become prouder still of my 11/13/15/15 Exeggutor, and my 13/15/15/13 Moltres, and my 1/15/11/14 Eevee, all obtained legally and all obtained without a huge investment of time. When I went to get my Kadabra out of the Cerulean Cave, the third one I found was ?/14/14/15. I was breeding Forretress for maybe 20 minutes when I got a 13/9/1/13 with a 65 Bug Power. My Sandslash is 9/15/10/15 and I'm proud of it. After a night of searching for Onix, all I had to show for it was a 14/15/14/14 Machamp. I had a 14/14/14/14 Ditto at one point. I had a 15/14/1/15 Porygon with a nickname I didn't like. Ten minutes later, I found one that was 15/14/1/14. Good enough.

I dupe up items, drugs and Masterballs. It isn't entirely right, I know. I have all six cartridges, and both Stadiums, and I save all the TMs I get when I play through Gold training things (which happens often) so a lot of the time, I don't need to dupe TMs. And when I do, I usually wind up getting another of the TMs anyway as I train up whatever I put it on. So, there's no harm done there. The drugs are usually unnessessary as well, as my current trainee that's hammering Gold all by itself is usually at max stats long before Lv. 100.

However, I would never use a GameShark for any of this. I'm still hoping I somehow manage to get a Celebi soon so I don't have to activate the sequence and get one myself. The way I see it, everything I do above (and you'd have to search far and wide to find somebody who'd care) can be done on any cartridge. However, not everyone wants to spend another $40 to get something to shag up their cartridge with, and potentially erase their game. (I can't remember the last time my Blue game has been restarted, and my Silver game has never been restarted. I like it that way.)

However, the duping of items still isn't entirely right... I'll tell you one thing I didn't like, though. I used the Ditto trick to create two copies of my Sandslash and Machamp. I don't recall using them on anything that's made it to my Lv. 100 box, but I know I'm going to get rid of them. My star Exeggutor had Moonlight bred on, after maybe 20 minutes of catching Exeggcute, and the first Gloom I could find. That was luck right there, kids. But the Exeggutor was entirely mine, and it felt great to train it up.

(It wasn't so great as its Giga Drain and Psychic attacks kept running out of PP on me, but I was training up a Heracross with it, so that hardly mattered.)

I would encourage people whom I'm helping to use the Missingno glitch or whatever to speed things up, because God knows, it takes long enough to get to Lv. 100 without having to restart for more Earthquake TMs. I usually Rare Candy them first and get the stat exp later on... Still takes eight or nine hours without Dodrio Mode; I can't see leveling them up properly taking any more time. I'll have to test it though.

Missingno is in the game, so it's all right. GameShark isn't, so it's not all right. That's my two cents on the issue. I can accept that duping items like they're going out of style isn't entirely right, but after spending two weeks looking for a decent Muk and Starmie, I have to say that I don't mind cutting some minor corners. But I've really got no problem fighting someone who GameSharks to save time, as long as it's within the 'legal' limits. That is, no gene manipulation. But they should have the balls to admit that it's cheating.

GameSharkers really cheat themselves, as well as their opponents. They either don't or can't appreciate the thrill of realizing that Raikou you just caught not only has decent stats, but a 60 Water Power. They can never say "This Snorlax is mine", with its max Health, Attack and Specials, and low Defence- perfect for using Counter. Or maybe the max Health, Defence and Specials Snorlax, terrorizing the RBY battlefield with Ice Beam and Thunderbolt? They will never know the satesfaction of cleaning out the Battle Tower with their own Skarmory, Alakazam and Misdreavus, bred specifically for that purpose. Cheaters never prosper. They may win the battle, but they still lose the game.
~Uiru

- - - - -
TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

AFRO NOOOOOOO!!!


From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Manuel Calavera
Sock Lover
Member # 1202

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posted 09-05-2001 02:19 PM      Profile for Manuel Calavera     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now, I think I know why people are against Gameshark.

quote:
Posted at Gameshark's crappy new Snowboard:
Rate My Team post!

Trainer:Adam
Human Opponets Defeted by team:500+
National Champion Ships Won:8

Feraligator Lv. 100:Mistic Water
Surf
Hydro Pump
Thunder(Thank You Gameshark
EarthQuake

Cellib Lv. 100(no Gameshark used)Mirical Seed
Thunder
Soaler Beam
Sunny Day
Fly

Mew Lv. 100(Receved from promotion)no item
Ice Beam
Thunber Bolt
Roll Out
Transform

Lugia Lv. 100:Bright powder
Hydro Pump
Surf
Fly
Hyper Beam

Mewto Lv. 100:Left overs
Thunder Bolt
Flash
Shadow Ball
Psi Wave


This IS a real post. Read it here.

- - - - -
Gates is the Saddam Hussein of the consumer technology world. ~ Mr.K


From: Newcastle, Home of Geordies, Brown Ale and The Wildhearts | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Digital Kaizeren
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 2081

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posted 09-05-2001 03:37 PM      Profile for Digital Kaizeren   Author's Homepage   Email Digital Kaizeren   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Debate is healthy. Let it go."

-Yes, debate is a wonderful thing that keeps us full of energy..but a pointless debate..(what this is..) is something where you're wasting you're arguing talent.

- - - - -
Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality


From: Somewhere in the Chronicles of time and space where cows are cheesesticks | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 09-05-2001 07:58 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
pkthunder: But he would spend an entire weekend training a pokémon for little cup as well. He wouldn't cheat.

So does he now acknowledge that using a Shark is cheating, or do you just mean he wouldn't "cheat" using Special cfalcon Rules?


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
I pay schoolgirls to verbally abuse me.
Member # 1295

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posted 09-05-2001 09:39 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
k u have a good variety of pkmn, but u need to try and teach them betta attacks un like sunny day it doesn't really do anything...I score u 750/1000 I hope u like that it's above average

things but stuff like recover shouldn't be needed u should try to use items instead!
-Beff

Ugh.


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 10-12-2001 03:29 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The debate must continue!

I’ve noticed a conflict in what people see as what the rules of Pokemon should be. For simplicity, I’ll refer to these as “Mr. K’s Rules” and “cfalcon’s Rules” for this and all subsequent posts.

There is a definite problem with Mr. K’s rules: They provide absolutely no reason to play the game. If I may ask Mr. K the following:

”Following your rules, what merit comes from being successful at Pokemon?”

As he sees it, it is supposed to take 150-200 hours every time you want to make a new team. The people that have the time to do that probably don’t know a thing about the true game mechanics, and the people who come up with good strategies don’t have the time to do all this!

How did Azure become this successful? It’s because all the best strategists come here to give their strategies......

...and yet the biggest name on the site seems to think strategy isn’t as important as having enough free time to go through the same boring steps over and over!

We didn’t become so respected for having members who have tons of free time but no strategic knowledge whatsoever.

See my point? If you don’t, I suggest you get your eyes checked FAST.

On the other hand, cfalcon has repeatedly stressed the advantages of playing by his set of rules. The player who has the better strategy should win, which makes sense. You may argue that the GB carts were designed to be played as RPGs rather than all-out strategy games, but there is no way to make sure who is right, save we pull a lobotomy on several NOA and GAMEFREAK employees and somehow determine the contents of their brain cells.

Stadium 1 and 2, on the other hand, are hard to refute. They were designed as strategy games, nothing less, as the RPG element there is non-existent. The fact that the Library exists in S2 only further supports my claim. If you have a problem with Stadium fights being a battleground where Strategists can exist freely, please state why, along with why Mr. K’s rules have any practical reason to exist.

I also noticed a post where K listed the rule about Gamesharks being illegal. While it may stop the 8-year-old proles from running amok with their 999-stat Dragonites, when it comes to people like us, there is absolutely NO WAY Nintendo can enforce that rule! As long as you maintain continuity in the ID Nos. (e. g. a Mewtwo with your Gold cart’s ID No. is a dead giveaway) and use somewhat believable DV’s, no one can ever find out whether or not you sharked. Now, Mr. K repeatedly dismisses this as a moot point, but has continuously failed to say why it should be such. The fact is that this is a rule they’ll never be able to enforce properly.

So if you want to call it “cheating,” go ahead.

We’re cheating at a pointless game in order to turn it into something where it actually has merit to be good at the game.

If you have a problem with this, then you shouldn’t be worthy of the coveted status of “Azurian.”

I rest my case.


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DarkPersian
Farting Nudist
Member # 898

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posted 10-13-2001 04:13 PM      Profile for DarkPersian   Author's Homepage   Email DarkPersian   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I feel like picking a fight so why not.

I think you're a bit off on "Mr. K's Rules." From what I have seen Mr. K prefers to play the game to winning the game. Mr. K uses favorite Pokemon, not the popular battle Pokemon. Mr. K does not have a load of Nintendo badges because he plays a strong game with weaker Pokemon. But Mr. K is into strategy; it’s just that he only uses strategies that would work with his Team Wiggly because anything else, for his personal use, is mute.

As for time being an excuse for sharking that is just a load of crap. On RBY with Stadium in Dodrio Mode it would take you 1:20 to box trick a lvl 100 Pokemon with vitamins. How do I know this? Because I found out about the 2000 World Championships three days before they were held and I had no decent team with which to compete. So I took the Pokemon I was training, as well as 4 of a friend's Pokemon, and I Rare Candied their butts up to lvl 100, put on the attacks I wanted, and then I just went through the Elite Four over and over. It only took me 1:20 per Pokemon meaning that it took me 14 hours total to have 10 Pokemon up to their full potential and ready for serious battles.

Just because you can break a rule and get away with it doesn't mean it is okay to break it. You don't kill someone and justify it by saying you weren't caught. Nintendo says, "No outside devices." That's the rules. No matter how much you may shark and get away with it you will never change the fact that that is the rules.

Stadium came out to give trainers a chance to test their already raised Pokemon. A lot of us can't find lots of other trainers with which to battle with. Stadium provided lots of battles at any level anyone would have wanted. Stadium was designed to be the reason why you raised Pokemon to lvl 100 when you had never attended a Nintendo event in your life. Sure it is pure strategy. The RPG of RBY and GSC are done when you beat the final trainers. After that what most of us want are battles. But just because you have a strategic aspect of Pokemon doesn't mean everything else isn't worth shit.

Why should Mr. K's rules exist? Because it makes the game fun for him. Why the hell do you need his rules for his own training methods justified? Has he ever prevented you from doing what you do? Last I checked the sharking forum is still up and open. Last I checked Azure Heights hosts basic sharking pages for RBY. When have Mr. K's rules ever interfered with you? Never you say. Well then you don't need them justified, do you?


From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 10-20-2001 08:25 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay. It’s time to resolve this debate.

For my next argument, I ask Mr. K to help support this.

(Don’t worry, it’s not going to attack your viewpoint, only TGD’s.)

I already mentioned two kinds of rules in my above post. I’m not going to discuss either of them right now.

However, there is also a third school of thought about what the rules of Pokemon are. It’s time to clarify on “TGD’s Rules” as I have gathered from previous posts here.

The rules according to cfalcon and K both have merit, and can be supported well. However, TGD is like the psychopath that wants to be the “official authority” by claiming that he makes the rules. Let’s go over them:

He thinks only two things are important: “trading” and “training”. Strategy is worth next to nothing from his standpoint. I have several questions to ask to TGD:

Are you saying that it’s WRONG to own more than one game?

So when GSC came out, we were supposed to just “get rid” of our RBY carts, because keeping them would violate the balance of the game?

You seem to dismiss every point as “against the way the game was supposed to be played.” Where did you hear someone say “this is how the game is supposed to be played, and playing any other way is wrong”? Can you link to a website that has a copy of one of Tajiri’s speeches that (as you claim) say our way of playing is wrong? Can you document your claims?

Here is an excerpt from one of your previous posts:
“You don't have a TM? TRADE for it, because that's what the CREATOR of Pokémon WANTS you to do, Satoshi Tajiri.”
Question: Who would be dumb enough to trade one of their rare TM’s? Under your system, the player that ends up being the best battler is usually the one with the dumbest friends. Do you see the problem with this?

If you answered “Well, who needs multiple TM’s?” then have you even seen any of the good strategies that have been posted on this very board?

You have been quoted as saying that your game environment eliminates the need for clauses. But considering that no one I know would trade away TM’s, isn’t that essentially saying “No duplicate TM’s on a team,” and isn’t that a clause in itself?

Is it WRONG to build teams that actually USE strategy?

Is Azure nothing more than a gathering of people who know nothing about the game?

If strategy is meaningless, then why was Stadium even made?

Should ANY strategy games be allowed to exist?

If not, then are you suggesting that intelligence has no merit?

(Anyone else can feel free to add questions to this “To Be Asked To TGD” list.)

It’s time for all of us to realize something.

Some people (I’ll call them “Casual Trainers”) want Pokemon to be a game that plays like Mr. K has been describing in this thread, where time must be spent on the game in order to succeed, but among players that have spent the necessary time, the better strategies usually win. Playing multiple games concurrently to achieve better teams is encouraged by these people.

Others prefer the purely strategic environment advocated by people like cfalcon and myself (“Strategists”). To them, the RPG element loses value after a while. They don’t want to spend time solving “There’s a 20-point stat differential between these two Tyranitars.” They just play Pokemon as a game where the individual’s ability to know what works in battle and what doesn’t is the primary objective. As of now, these people must buy a Gameshark in order to achieve this environment, because it is believed that there are not enough of these people in order to profit from products targeting this group.

And a few players are like TGD (“Strict Trainers”), who come up with unverifiable quotes to try and say that the other two schools of thought are incorrect. These people may think that Pokemon is a game where playing a long time (and having friends dumb enough to trade away their essentials) are more important than strategy, and they can among themselves. However, their ability to say “someone who DOESN’T follow these EXACT rules is a cheater, no questions asked” is unfounded, and any time they do so, they may be safely ignored.

With these three mindsets coexisting, an obvious problem comes along. The same game must function as all of these.

Once Nintendo or some other company comes up with three different games such that all of these groups can remain content, then this debate becomes useless.

However, they haven’t. With a single series of games being forced to fill all of these roles, eventually there will be arguments between players from different groups.

The best way to avoid this is to simply find out what mindset everyone else has, and just avoid battles with people from different groups.

So if you want to shark, just avoid the players that don’t believe in its use.

I don’t think anyone would have a problem with this.

But to the game makers, people that aren’t playing as Trainers are simply ignored.

The “Strategist” group has a right to exist.

The only reason we need a RAM altering device to play in the Strategist environment is because NOA either doesn’t think they can profit off us (an incorrect assumption) or because they don’t like the idea of having EDUCATED consumers (can anyone say FLAME THEM?).

If DV’s are removed and there finally becomes an efficient way to level up monsters in the cart itself, then the Strategist group becomes just as legitimate as the Casual Trainer group.

But no one is willing to make a game just for the Strategists, and so we have to make a small change on an existing game to be content.

I know that not everyone wants to play Pokemon as a purely strategic game.

But I happen to want to, and I am not alone.

Think about it: This is Azure Heights, home to the greatest STRATEGIES yet discovered in the game.

I simply want to be recognized as a legitimate player of “the game as I see it.”

Which is really why this whole thread started: because no one takes us seriously, and people seem to stereotype everyone that uses a RAM altering device as “cheaters.” It’s not so much “cheating” as it is “playing a different kind of game.”

Come to think of it, I don’t feel the need to mask my Pokemon’s DV’s to make it indistinguishable from a Trainer’s cart anymore. I’m playing a different game, independent of Trainers...

But it's a perfectly legitimate game.

Barring extreme circumstances, this should be the last clarifying post I need to make on this thread.

Any post-debate comments?

[ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ]


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Donald
Bob the Builder
Member # 1551

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posted 10-20-2001 11:52 AM      Profile for Donald   Email Donald      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jolt, TGD left Azure about a month ago.

You should've asked him before that.


From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
psykloak1
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posted 10-20-2001 04:36 PM      Profile for psykloak1   Author's Homepage   Email psykloak1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
(i don't know if this has been brought up before but)

You cant really say that sharking is always bad b/c u can use it for things that don't affect your ability to win or lose in a battle agents humans or the game NPCs. thinks like changing yours or your pokemon's nicknames or ID # isn't immoral.

Using a knife to cut yourself a piece of cheese isn't bad just because you can use that knife to kill people.

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-psyk
NeptuneCircle.com


From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 10-22-2001 07:15 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
“Casual Trainer”? I’m a “Casual Trainer”? I’ve just spent 2 months of my life breeding 6 lvl 5 pokes for my new team just so I can have the right moves and stats, and I’m a “Casual Trainer”? And you’re not? I haven’t even leveled them up yet and still need to get some more money so I can fully drug each of them. You could have done the same with a gameshark in 5 mins and you’re not a “Casual Trainer”? LMAO.

"So if you want to shark, just avoid the players that don’t believe in its use."

Well you’re right about something at least. Like other and I have said about 30 times already in this thread if you don’t want to be branded a cheater by others for using a gameshark just find some people who feel the same way you do.

“Casual Trainer”!!!

*dies of laughter

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: j-br ]


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
LordLocke
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posted 10-22-2001 08:54 PM      Profile for LordLocke   Author's Homepage   Email LordLocke   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cheating is cheating. The moment you give yourself something through means outside the basic rules, even if it's something that's obtainable within the rules, it's cheating.

Now, it's how much you GIVE a damn about cheating. Me, while I don't own a Gameshark, I've freely exploited a Blue cart for years as Missingno central. I've trained more Pokemon with Earthquake, Ice Beam, T-bolt, T-wave, Body Slam, or Double Edge then you can shake a stick at. Why? Because I didn't want to play through R/B/Y a thousand times to get enough copies of Body Slam, Double Edge or Thunderbolt (My three most used TMs) for all the Pokemon I wanted to have them. So, I Missingno'd them up as I needed them. Is it cheating? Yes. I admit freely- I did not earn those TMs the legit and proper way (playing through Red for the n-th time.) Do most people care? No. They thought it clever that I found a way around playing through the game YET AGAIN to get the TMs I needed.

Personally, if I had a Gameshark, I would probably use it for basic things- legal movesets, Pokemon catching, etc. But I'd draw my own line in the sand (For me, leveling up and stat DVs) and simply refuse to cross it. Would I hold people in contempt for using it to do those things? Probably not. After all, they're cheating, but I am to, even if I refuse to cross a self-made line. Frankly, the only people here who can bitch any form of cheating are those who've refused to exploit glitches, use a Gameshark, etc... (although, I guess I can claim a bit of a moral high-ground for G/S/C, since I have yet to exploit any G/S/C gliches like the dupe trick yet...)

BTW, I don't consider starting a new game a form of cheating. Indeed, I feel that if someone's willing to drag themselves through the painful labor of going through all the gyms and hunting everything down again (Particularly in the deathly-boring Red and Blue) then props to them for that kind of dedication. I did Red twice, Blue three, and I was DONE with it for those two, myself...

- - - - -
Return of the Mankey's Uncle.

It's not shopping if I don't plan to pay for it!


From: American Canyon | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 10-22-2001 10:17 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oy. Jolt, I didn't read all your krap, but since you apparently haven't read (or least comprehended) what I had to say, it's only fair. I'll try one last time:

I do not make the rules. Sharking is cheating.

That's all I'm saying.

If you say sharking is not cheating, then you are a motherfucking idiot.

Now, if you find it's more fun to play with a sharked team, and you play others who also do, or at least don't mind playing against sharkers, that's totally and completely fine. But it's still cheating.

It doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you cheated. Fine. If 2 people decide they wanna play Chess with 2 extra bishops, that's just fine, nothing wrong with it; but it is a violation of the rules of Chess, and therefore cheating. It's not regular Chess any more, it's Chess Plus Extra Bishops, which is a totally fine game to play if two people wanna do that.

The only problem at all is when one guy has decided he's going to try and slide a couple extra pieces on the board when the other player isn't looking and isn't expecting it.

In short: Sharking is cheating. It doesn't matter if cheating makes the game more worthwhile for you. If you are going to shark tell the other person. If he's OK with that, game on. If not, you will burn in Hell next to that guy in class who copies answers off the smart girl.

I hope that wasn't too complicated for you to understand.


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dragonite21
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posted 11-03-2001 06:07 AM      Profile for Dragonite21     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by j-br:
i) People who have a shark don’t think sharking is that bad. (Well duh)
ii) People who do not have a shark don’t like sharking (duh again)

Not at all. I have a shark, and although I do use it, I don't like to. Okay, so I sound insane, let me explain.

I bought the thing a while back, when I had no problem with sharking everything and anything. Now, tho, my viewpoint has changed.

The shark doesn't touch any of my pokemon. Call it stupidity or just gut feeling, but it seems wrong to be altering genes or forcing them to know tricks they shouldn't. I guess I'm a sentimental idiot who gets attatched to his "1's and 0's", but I certainly feel good about myself knowing that that Dragonite was raised from lv 15 after weeks of work - I wouldn't be proud of myself if I just bunged in some numbers and said that this Dragonite was the profit of dedicated training.

Most items, the shark doesn't touch either. I do think the game was meant to be played with just one masterball etc, and it does bring a certain element into it when you're tracking the legendary dogs with just a few fast balls.
TMs are presently the only thing I dupe. I would keep restarting my game, except that it would be such a shame for over 100 hours of work to go down the drain - the other option is Missingo and the shark, which I use. It's cheating, yes, but I feel comfortable with it. I don't think the game was intended to be played with just one of certain TMs, prove me wrong if you want, but that's just how I feel. How you feel is the best way - heck, it's the only way - to decide whether you want to use the shark or not.

Something interesting I did notice tho, is how people say that sharking for max stats is fine, if you spend long enough searching you're bound to find a max statted one anyway. This is bull, there's no guarantee that you're ever going to run into one.

EDIT: I just glanced at the official rule K posted, and it says no pokemon to be enhanced, making items fine. While it is still cheating, it seems to be fine for tournaments, so nyah.

Just my two cents, I'll probably say more later.

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Dragonite21 ]


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 11-05-2001 05:40 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay maybe I should have worded that a bit better. I meant that people who *use* gamesharks don't sharking is that bad, and vice versa. Of course you can get one and then change your mind.

quote:
Originally posted by Dragonite21:

EDIT: I just glanced at the official rule K posted, and it says no pokemon to be enhanced, making items fine. While it is still cheating, it seems to be fine for tournaments, so nyah.



Err I think your pushing the boat out a bit there. I doubt Nintendo would say ‘Yeah that’s fine’ if you explained the loophole in that rule to them. Still it is a loophole and, I suppose, if you can sleep at night with the knowledge that you sharked all those TMs, then it’s an exploitable one. I wouldn’t like to go into this further as undoubtedly the sharkers out there would like to open this hole a bit further (like saying a sharked Celebi is legal by that rule, as technically, the pokemon hasn’t been touched a shark. All that’s been altered is the catch data for a specific area and not the actual pokemon data itself). This is just one example – I’m sure there are more.

Anyway I think everyone, apart from Jolt135, has agreed to disagree as far as the legality (and ethicality) of sharking goes, so maybe this topic should be allowed to die gracefully.

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: j-br ]


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DarkPersian
Farting Nudist
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posted 11-05-2001 08:33 AM      Profile for DarkPersian   Author's Homepage   Email DarkPersian   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by j-br:
Err I think your pushing the boat out a bit there. I doubt Nintendo would say ‘Yeah that’s fine’ if you explained the loophole in that rule to them.

Actually I once did explain the loop hole to some Nintendo reps during the first mall tour. Some friends and I were concerned about our MissingNo usage so we asked for the official rules which stated, "No outside device." I then asked about MissingNo since he was an in game glich. The ruling was it didn't break Nintendo's rules so, for me anyway, the loophole was validated.


From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged


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