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Author Topic: Sharking's Ethicality Revisited
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 08-12-2001 07:23 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don’t know when the last such thread died off, so I’m bringing up a new one. (And yes, “ethicality” is a real word. Look it up.)

I have defined a battleground for this debate. Practically everyone at AH, even Mr. K, agrees that there is nothing wrong with sharking stats for use on single-player Stadium matches. Anyone trying to speak on this point will be promptly ignored.

The main topic here is “What kinds of Sharking should be allowable at TOURNAMENTS?”

(Oh, and I sent a letter to NOA that might get them to come to this board, so if there are a bunch of posters that start talking about strict morality and have member numbers over 2000, ignore them. Anyone who argues that way must not know how to alter RAM, and doesn’t deserve to speak on this topic. Of course, the N never listens to anyone, so they probably won’t read this...)

Let’s take my Gold cartridge’s “normally sharked” save slot. It currently has 88 L100 max statters. Even I wouldn’t use that at a real competition; I would be figured out too easily. Even though the time on that save file reads over 680 hours (I sharked that on too, heh, heh, heh), the probability of coming up with 88 max statters in a row naturally (i.e., game generates 1408 consecutive bits of 1 in the appropriate variables) would be 1 in......
7,083,271,603,906,078,757,501,937,199,840, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000

*shakes off the stiffness from his hands after typing all that*

Now, it takes me (on average, for automatic-triggered Pokemon like Mewtwo, Ho-oh, and Snorlax) 18 seconds to fire off a Master Ball, catch the Pokemon, check the stats, and hit A-B-SELECT-START if not perfect. Multiply that 424-digit number by 18 seconds, then divide by 31,536,000 (number of seconds in a year), and we have...

*points out that it’s a really long number*
*doesn’t want to have to type 418 digits and break his fingers again*

That number isn’t even lexicographically defined. Take a googol (10100), square it, square it again, multiply by 5,000,000,000,000,000,000, and THAT is the number of years it would take.

Of course, that’s how many tries it would take to catch 88 IN A ROW. When caught separately, it should only take 5,767,168 tries. That’s still a lot: Playing for 4 hours a day, 18 seconds per try, you’d take almost 20 years to get all those. I’d estimate that 85% of the board’s population (excluding the founders) are under 20, but that’s if these games were even released back then. For GS, you would need to keep up the 4 hours a day, 18 seconds a try, from the game’s release until about July 13, 2020. Now do you see how long it would take?

So, in conclusion, DON’T make the claim that you caught 88 natural max statters. That save file is for Stadium 2 matches only.

But this topic isn’t just supposed to be about 400+ digit numbers. The question is “what things should be okay to shark for competition?” Some people just shark whatever they think they can get away with. That can work, but if you DO get caught because of one small oversight (I can tell when you mess up like that) and you have no justification, you’re officially screwed. I see no problem with sharking Stat Experience; it only takes about 12 hours to get a hatchling up to L100 and max it out (and when I’ve gone through the E5 that much, I have enough money to drug up the next Pokemon and make the process even faster.) You’re saving about 2 days, which is worthwhile enough for you to do it, but not overpowering such that everyone else bashes you for saving that time.

Sharking up movesets is no problem either, as long as they’re legal sets. Regardless of how complicated the moveset is, you could easily get it set up in about 45 minutes. The only exception would possibly be Smeargle, who would require 4 different paks to Mystery Gift with, or else take multiple days. But a “few extra days” story would easily be believable to Nintendo employees, who suggest their own ways, but in reality that takes even longer. Sharking just saves you the effort of switching GB games and fighting Stadium 2’s E5 for moves you missed.

Now, the most debatable point I will make: Sharking of DV’s. Getting perfect stats 6 times in a row requires about
79,228,162,514,264,337,593,543,950,336 go-rounds.

However, when done separately, the average number of tries it takes for 6 max statters is......
393,216

Boom. Compared to that 423-digit number I gave earlier, this actually seems kind of small. But at 18 seconds a try, that’s still 81.92 days continuously. For a more reasonable time like 2 hours of catching per day, that comes to more than 2˝ years. Is $27 a reasonable exchange for saving yourself almost 1000 days worth of pressing the same five buttons over and over again until you find a specific set of numbers that most trainers wouldn’t even know? I don’t think too many people would say yes to that. But what DV alteration is acceptable? I think that legally catching a Pokemon with certain DV’s allows you to shark anything UP TO AND INCLUDING those values for any future catches of that species, at or above that level, because you can clone anyway, either in a link trade or using a Megamem. (i. e. getting (13) 7, 15, 12, 11 as Determinant Values on a freshly caught L64 Chansey should allow you to use those values on any other L64 Chanseys you may have, but it doesn’t entitle you to put the same stats on a L50 one for the Poke Cup, since something you caught at L64 would never be able to enter the Poke Cup unless you sharked DOWN the EXP, which would definitely be written off as illegal.) For example, the only natural max statter I have right now is a Mewtwo I caught on Blue version. Therefore, I should be able to shark whatever DV’s I want onto any Mewtwos I get at L70 or higher (which shouldn’t be a factor for M2). For “up to and including”, that includes the HP DV. For example, let’s say you want a Raikou to have HP Ice. The DV’s when you caught it were (2) 14, 12, 9, 8. You could adjust Attack and Defense to 11 and 9, respectively, for an Ice-70, but I would call that illegal since the HP DV would then rise from 2 to 14. Even if you already had one with a 14 or 15 in HP, you still couldn’t use these values unless that high-HP one also had its other DVs at least to the points you wanted them at. (Luckily for me, I caught mine with (14) 11, 11, 13, 10, so that gave me the right to knock Defense down to 9 and have a legal Ice-70.)

Another approach would be to add up the highest DV you have total for that species and simply redistribute them. This would be nice, especially if you were training someone like a Snorlax who can deal with a 1 DV in a stat, allowing you to put higher values where they matter most. However, I won’t condone that for tournament play. You want a Chansey with a 15 DV for Defense? Keep catching them until you get a 15 in that stat. You don’t get to exchange the 15 from Attack for the 3 you had in Defense. Besides, with the HP dependencies, it’s tough even to follow that rule.

There’s my opinion on the subject. Some sharking should be allowed in tournaments, as I have described above. I don’t think being allowed to do this would be unbalancing to the competitions, not to mention the fact that there are people doing it anyway. If there are any disagreements, go ahead and speak so that cfalcon and myself can debate you to the point of insanity.

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ]


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
Farting Nudist
Member # 117

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posted 08-12-2001 07:55 AM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hack games, but only for research, I understand the balance of the game, I undertand why and how the game balance can function without artificial rules.
Playing the game as a Trainer is the way to balance it, you pay your dues and you work with what you have. No, you cannot have it all no matter how much time you have in your hands or how pasty your skin is from lack of sunlight, that's the way it was meant to be.
I play the game as a Trainer, I could hack my way through it but I don't because it kills the spirit of the game...
The thing is that in a tournament enviroment, hacking the game unbalances it for the simple reason that you have only certain pokemon with certain moves, then you get beaten, all the sudden next weekend you have a bran new power team that would have normaly taken you weeks if not months to assemble. When someone comes up with a fully trained team that is adapted to the other teams that trainer lost to in JUST one week, it's ridiculous, it doesn't give the honest players enough time to adapt. Tactical adaption is supposed to be a longer process in Pokemon, not this instantaneous crap.
But, you got your Strategists and you got your Trainers and they cannot co-exist in the same tournament scene.
It is best to have them separated, the ones that shark and the ones that train and this way everyone's happy and some of the players swing both ways.
If you're going to cheat, you might as well go all the way instead of half-ass cheating.
Screw catching pokemon and editing them, just create one out of nowhere, the Hell with finding TMs, with a shark, you're God.
Just make sure that your hacks look natural, that's all. Why bother catching this and getting that, talking to this person and going to places? Just hack everything!
You don't even have to "waste" your time playing the game, you can hack all the goals, all the quests, get all the items and do everything by just spending time punching in numbers. Shoot, even get a N64 shark and hack away at the Stadium series too, nothing's sacred! Why the Hell not, right? After all, to Strategists, Pokemon is just a game of numbers, right?
Hack it away, hack everyhing, tear it to shreads, it doesn't really matter, does it?Who cares...?

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"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K

From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 08-12-2001 09:08 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's what I ws saying. Have two "sub-tournaments" at each place: One for Strategists, and one for Trainers. That might even be grounds for sharking perfect DVs at a competition. At least for RBY, the games have been out long enough that a team of 6 max-statters isn't too unreasonable. As I mentioned earlier, it would take an average of 2.67 years, playing for 2 hours a day. That could happen by now, couldn't it? But I'm also discussing to "what sharking should be allowed while keeping the Trainer spect intact."
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Artie Cuno
Linkin125473457539
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posted 08-12-2001 09:43 AM      Profile for Artie Cuno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I'm just starting up on the metagaming circuit, so I started a new (unsharked) gamefile. The only sharking I did? Turning my Haunter into a Gengar. Hey, I traded him anyhow! So, do I think sharking is ethical? In some cases, yes. See, I can't afford Pokemon Stadium 2, so if I miss a move I shark it up. I'm not wasting all my time on a Pokemon which I'll have to re-breed anyhow! No way! If my Umbreon misses, say, mean look, an essential for my Swaggerbreon, I shark it. I am NOT wasting my time training that Umbreon just to breed another one and start over at level 5! As for items, no. Not when you're in the metagame. Sharking levels? Nuh-uh. Not when you're playing humans. Pokemon? Only if you're evolving a Pokemon you can't evolve otherwise (don't have a link cable, etc.).
And as for stat EXP... MAYBE. If you've already trained them to where you think they're maxxed out (level 70 or thereabouts) you can double-check it with the Stat exp codes. A few points more won't make much of a difference, so long as you don't shark levels. OK, there are my views. Just my opinion.

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Piss off not the kittens, lest they claw your balls off.

From: A box in a swamp. With your sister. | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 08-12-2001 02:03 PM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jolt135: For example, the only natural max statter I have right now is a Mewtwo I caught on Blue version. Therefore, I should be able to shark whatever DV’s I want onto any Mewtwos I get at L70 or higher (which shouldn’t be a factor for M2).
So, ergo, if I have one Snorlax with stats of FFFF, but I plan on using 8 different Movesets on 8 different Snorlax, I should be able to "shark" all of them up to FFFF, as long as I catch all of them in the same place on the same level? Makes sense. Sure. And you'll have you 6+ FFFF Mewtwo, as long as you catch them all in the same place. It's NOT like the team'd be unbeatable in Red/Blue, 6 FFFF Mewtwos, oh no.

The Great Dreamer:
When someone comes up with a fully trained team that is adapted to the other teams that trainer lost to in JUST one week, it's ridiculous, it doesn't give the honest players enough time to adapt.
As much as I'd like to agree with this (and I do agree that a person shouldn't be able to instantly shark a team to oppose the person that just beat him, like the Pink Celebi Trainer was trying to do after my team whomped him team Saturday), but I have over 100 (nearing 200) Lv100s (or close to Lv100) that I've trained over the years and years, so if I wanted to gather a team just to oppose a certain person's team, it'd just be as simple as looking through my Stadium2 boxes.
However, looking at all the hours and hours that went into this (I'd play while walking to the store, walking to work, etc...all those 1 hours~8 hours walks of mine), I don't think it's right to compare my raising Pokémon to be prepared with Gamesharking a counter-team.
So, overall, I agree with you. It's just not reight to have someone instantly "shark" a counter-team.

Jolt135: That's what I ws saying. Have two "sub-tournaments" at each place: One for Strategists, and one for Trainers.
The day I host a Pokémon League for Gamesharkers to showoff their codes is the day Oak turns over in his grave. What? He's not quite dead yet?

"Shark" all you want for personal use. But, if you use a Gameshark on a single thing that you'll be using in battle against another person, lest they use a Gameshark yourself, you've given yourself an unfair advantage to them.

*Sits waiting to hear about my unfair advantage of having Yellow, Crystal, and Stadium 1 and 2. In the meantime, prepares a couple more Surfing Pikach and breeds another Swords Dance Cubone for "League Prizes."*

--Meowth346, whose math shows that he may just be able to get 45 Celebi out of FunFest...but may not be able to get quite so many ^_^;; (If I do, though: League Prize Fodder)


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Uiru
Sketch Molester
Member # 437

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posted 08-12-2001 04:32 PM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First off, Jolt135: Do something about that number that's stretching the screen. I've had to copy each message into Notepad just to read them.

Secondly, changing DV's is garbage. Surely you've heard the argument against sharking an FFFF: "Sharking for max stats is like stealing from the lottery. You're going to win eventually, right?" With what you're proposing, you can change that line to "I've won the lottery, now I can steal from them as many times as I like." Change one DV and you're a dirty rotten cheater.

Now, on the other hand, there are some things that are perfectly fine. Sharking up to personal max stats, for example. I don't care if you spent three hours in the Cerulean Cave or three seconds punching in numbers to get your Arcanine to top out to 15/15/12/12. Sharking moves is also fine. It makes no difference to me if you played through three times to get all the Earthquake TMs you need, or if you cloned up a thousand of them with Missingno, or just put the move straight on with GameShark. If the moveset is legal, who cares about how it got there?

These are simply methods of saving time. I agree that the game should not be decided by who has so little to do that they can spend three hours building Stat EXP, in Dodrio Mode. Six times. Without benefit of Stadium 2, this process could take days. (For those who say sharking DV's is saving time, see above.) Manipulating Stat EXP or moves or whatever is just speeding up what you have; the end result is exactly the same as if you had never Sharked at all.

Now, for the record, I have *never* used a GameShark. Each and every one of my 30+ Lv. 100s are homegrown, most powered up on Dodrio Mode, many the result of long, long breeding sessions. I clone up drugs and TMs freely, but that hardly matters. However, I am considering renting one for the sole purpose of getting a Celebi.

At first I was disgusted with myself for even considering this, but then I realized that Nintendo's generator machines are just specialized GameSharks. Both the generator and the shark stick a Celebi somewhere, where it cannot be accessed naturally. And my team needs a Celebi. If Nintendo wants to give me one, I'll use it, but if they don't, shag 'em. (I plan to obtain this Celebi through the GS Ball and by activating the Celebi sequence. This way, I'll be able to catch one with stats I like [and if you know me, you know they'll be high by the time I'm done with it]. I'll then clone it, and change one of the OT and ID numbers to match the 'Official' Celebis, for use in tournaments.)
~Uiru

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TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

AFRO NOOOOOOO!!!


From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
PikaCharma
I scanned my boobs and then said I was leaving and never coming back. OOPS!
Member # 2026

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posted 08-12-2001 06:51 PM      Profile for PikaCharma   Author's Homepage   Email PikaCharma   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've voiced my opinions on sharking before in a different thread, though I don't recall which. That being said...I completely and totally agree with Uiru on this whole "ethics of Gameshark" controversy. I guess I'm a Strategist rather than a Trainer by definition, since I view the ultimate purpose of Pokemon to be interpersonal link battles rather than in-game dicking around. I also view pokemon tourneys as battles of skill and strategy, not battles of who has no life, too much freetime, and several hundred dollars to dump on extra Gameboys, extra carts, and PokeSta 2. I would wholeheartedly support separate tourneys for Trainers and Strategists if Nintendo or any other tournament organizers would ever go for such a thing, though I don't see that happening anytime soon. But as things are now, I see nothing wrong with Sharking so long as it's only used as a shortcut. I wouldn't fight anyone who put Spore on an Electrode or sharked perfect DVs onto all their pokemon, unless an "anything goes" clause been discussed before hand. But if someone wants to save themselves some time and money by just duplicating their Thunderbolt TM instead of buying another gameboy and sitting around trading with themselves, then see if I care. If the team you fight me with is legal, I don't give a shit if you raised the pokemon yourself, sharked them, traded for them, or if they magically materialized in a flash of white light. The fact of the matter is, there they are, the end result is the same, so let's battle.

- - - - -
Pikacharma's Bottomless Pit -- Vote 4 Mike, see a dead Togepi, and take the Pokemon Purity test!

"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something made up to scare us kids, like the boogieman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson

From: Never Land | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
Farting Nudist
Member # 1974

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posted 08-13-2001 08:20 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Meowth346:
Jolt135: For example, the only natural max statter I have right now is a Mewtwo I caught on Blue version. Therefore, I should be able to shark whatever DV’s I want onto any Mewtwos I get at L70 or higher (which shouldn’t be a factor for M2).
So, ergo, if I have one Snorlax with stats of FFFF, but I plan on using 8 different Movesets on 8 different Snorlax, I should be able to "shark" all of them up to FFFF, as long as I catch all of them in the same place on the same level? Makes sense. Sure. And you'll have you 6+ FFFF Mewtwo, as long as you catch them all in the same place. It's NOT like the team'd be unbeatable in Red/Blue, 6 FFFF Mewtwos, oh no.

This thread is about sharking in TOURNAMENTS. Is there any tournament that allows you to use 6 Mewtwos? I didn't think so. And yes, you should be allowed to get all those FFFF Snorlaxes; you can clone them anywawy, but sharking them is less likely to corrupt your file (if you know how to do it, of course.)

The Great Dreamer:
When someone comes up with a fully trained team that is adapted to the other teams that trainer lost to in JUST one week, it's ridiculous, it doesn't give the honest players enough time to adapt.
As much as I'd like to agree with this (and I do agree that a person shouldn't be able to instantly shark a team to oppose the person that just beat him, like the Pink Celebi Trainer was trying to do after my team whomped him team Saturday), but I have over 100 (nearing 200) Lv100s (or close to Lv100) that I've trained over the years and years, so if I wanted to gather a team just to oppose a certain person's team, it'd just be as simple as looking through my Stadium2 boxes.
However, looking at all the hours and hours that went into this (I'd play while walking to the store, walking to work, etc...all those 1 hours~8 hours walks of mine), I don't think it's right to compare my raising Pokémon to be prepared with Gamesharking a counter-team.
So, overall, I agree with you. It's just not reight to have someone instantly "shark" a counter-team.

I'm not talking about insta-sharking. That would belong in a separate thread. I mean once you've caught the Pokemon with good DVs, feel free to speed up the leveling-up and lengthy breeding process.

Jolt135: That's what I ws saying. Have two "sub-tournaments" at each place: One for Strategists, and one for Trainers.
The day I host a Pokémon League for Gamesharkers to showoff their codes is the day Oak turns over in his grave. What? He's not quite dead yet?

"Shark" all you want for personal use. But, if you use a Gameshark on a single thing that you'll be using in battle against another person, lest they use a Gameshark yourself, you've given yourself an unfair advantage to them.

That's why people should be allowed to shark for some things. This "you did but I didn't so you have an advantage" thing pops up? Get a shark of your own so it's an even field!

*Sits waiting to hear about my unfair advantage of having Yellow, Crystal, and Stadium 1 and 2. In the meantime, prepares a couple more Surfing Pikachu and breeds another Swords Dance Cubone for "League Prizes."*

Why don't you put Fly on the Pikachus as well?



From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 08-13-2001 04:50 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't imagine anyone having a real problem sharking statEXP and levels... the special case of a "counter team" is a pretty good point, but that's the only one I've ever heard.

I'm not going to post all my opinions here right now (maybe later, but they're all around this board), but I will say that the max stats / special stats arguement is the most significant one.

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Subject: Ninja and Opensource


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 08-13-2001 07:47 PM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jolt135:
Why don't you put Fly on the Pikachus as well?
Now how on earth could I do that?

--Meowth346


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
PikaCharma
I scanned my boobs and then said I was leaving and never coming back. OOPS!
Member # 2026

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posted 08-13-2001 10:18 PM      Profile for PikaCharma   Author's Homepage   Email PikaCharma   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A flying Pika? O_o;; Hrm. Ok, I change my official opinion of ethical gamesharkery from "only shark legal stuff" to "only shark legal stuff or stuff that really really sucks and would actually make you EASIER to beat." If someone pulls out a sharked pokemon, and it results in me laughing too hard to bitch about it, I won't be too horribly worried.

- - - - -
Pikacharma's Bottomless Pit -- Vote 4 Mike, see a dead Togepi, and take the Pokemon Purity test!

"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something made up to scare us kids, like the boogieman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson

From: Never Land | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 08-14-2001 05:23 AM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Re-reading things, I think that Jolt135 mis-understood my saying "prepare." When I said that I was going to "prepare" those Pokémon, I meant "breed" those Pokémon. I suppose you thought that I own a Gameshark and was going to "prepare" them with that, as that's the only way that I could "prepare" a Flying Pikachu.

--Meowth346, who will never own a Gameshark.


Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Artie Cuno
Linkin125473457539
Member # 1205

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posted 08-14-2001 09:24 AM      Profile for Artie Cuno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Koffing! Ok, that bit of random nothingness aside, I have a new tidbit to add. I live in Florida (XP) and there are no tournaments within a hundred miles of here. The only people I can battle are at the local Pokemon league. Many of them have GS. All of the ones who have sharks use them. Fine with me, but should I shark to keep up? I don't like doing it normally, but in this case-sure, why not! Knock yourself out, AS LONG AS YOU BOTH AGREE TO SHARK. I've said it before and I'll say it again, DON'T SHARK UNLESS YOUR OPPONENT DOES. Now, yes, stat EXP doesn't hurt. Yes, a few sharked TMs are OK. Hell, even shark a few legal moves on if that floats your boat. But no sharkery of DVs unless both competitors shark DVs. And no illegal moves! I swear, if I fight another Mewtwo with Spore, when we both agreed that we wouldn't shark, I'll rip the cable out and beat my opponent with it! And as for the Cross chopping, Megahorning, Dark/ghost type ones... >_<.

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Piss off not the kittens, lest they claw your balls off.

From: A box in a swamp. With your sister. | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
CrystalMeth
Farting Nudist
Member # 1485

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posted 08-14-2001 10:09 PM      Profile for CrystalMeth   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eh, I guess I'll add my useless opinion. Cheating is cheating, no matter how you do it or how little it is. But I'm a hypocrite. I shark. But I try to do it as little as posable. Sharking stat EXP, no big deal, it just saves time. You could argue that if you're not gonna bother putting the effort into playing the game, then why bother playing at all? Well, cuz I like playing the game, and the point of a game is to be fun. But constantly fighting low level monsters over and over again starts to be not fun, so if you're gonna hurry the process along to make it fun, why not?
I'm more of a trainer than a strategist I guess, and I like putting time and effort into my monsters, thinking that I worked hard to get them that strong, so I only shark infinite powerups (except PP up ofcourse) to cut down on training time, although on a few occasions I have broken down and sharked max stat EXP on a few Pokémon. But that's just what's fun for me. If that's not your thing, and all you want is to have some good Pokémon to kick ass in link battles with, shark all you want, I don't mind.
Sharking moves is slightly different. I used to shark moves, but then I thought about something. All though unique TMs are unique for a reason. You're only supposed to have one Pokémon with that move, so why is it ok to shark as many as you want?
Sharking DVs, I'm totally against, that gives you an unfair advantage. Work hard to catch or breed stats you want.

- - - - -
-Crys
Meow!

From: Hell on Earth | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Random Loser
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posted 08-14-2001 11:06 PM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I personally find the game to be horribly tedious after the first run-through and shark just about everything I need. I shark up the poke, its DVs (no, not max, but close enough ), stat exp, level exp, the works. Of course, at present time my shark isn't working properly and the only worthwhile team to be found on my cart is my Shiny Eevee-pass team. I use whatever part of the game I enjoy (the battling) and basically ignore the rest... I suppose that makes me an awful person and I'm going to hell for my sins.
From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 08-15-2001 01:42 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Basically the arguement comes down to:

How much of the game is raising your own monster, and how much is battle skill?

My personal opinion is that I don't care what I fight, as long as it's obtainable (no Mews with other than official stats, no Sporing Electrode). I'm a little iffy on gene manipulation, but I've got zero argument with the rest.

I personally try to raise everything, but Hidden Power blows my mind (even with breeding), and I shark what I can't get until such time as I get it. It helps that I enjoy levelling the things I have, mostly.

If your opponents shark legal things, you should too, generally. Otherwise you end up not having full access to a game that they do. If you play against them, it will be on equal footing, but you have to do several orders of magnitude more work than them.

If you *ever* see an illegal move when you haven't agreed that that was allowed (the default is that only legal moves are allowed), power down your gameboy. You are playing pokemon and they aren't.

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Subject: Ninja and Opensource


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
FreeZeR
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posted 08-15-2001 05:54 PM      Profile for FreeZeR   Email FreeZeR   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just out of curiosity, everytime that we have a discusstion about ethicality on sharking, we end up with these breif points:

- Sharking is unnoticable as long as it's legal sharking.
- Shark is a big time saver.

And we also, ALWAYS, have had someone do one big thing about quote people and debunking their comments.
This forum is dedicated to sharking, so why not just continue h4xing? If sharking wasn't big and many people (notice that I avoided the obvious flame for saying everyone) weren't doing it, we wouldn't have it.
I'm not saying that I completely support it in tournament play, nor am I really against it, I'm just trying to point out that we have done this before and, well, this is what we come up with.
Why not leave the topic alone for awhile?
Brand new ROM to begin to h4x...

----------
P.S.
-Ooh! You can get swords dance on Cubone?!? Show, please!

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: FreeZeR ]

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WeLCoMe To THe FreeZeR


From: O'Fallon, IL, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 08-15-2001 08:03 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm... I am a sharker. I shark TM's, moves, ect but I do not shark DV's, leveling, pokemon, ect, because I find the catching fairly fun, as long as it isn't, say, any of the Beasts, lol.
From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
incompetent
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posted 08-15-2001 11:08 PM      Profile for incompetent   Author's Homepage   Email incompetent   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This has been an excellent discussion. A good deal of this has been said already, however I thought I should draw more attention to gltiches. Suppose you've been privileged enough to get a three way max monster with D being the other IV. The question would be is it more dishonorable to clone that monster or to shark out an equivalent, or perhaps they are equal? Items also come in to play. Was gold or silver intended to be played with one curse TM, one rest TM, etc. per cartridge? You might say no as it's more than possible to trade with other cartridges, dupe, or for the more purists breed on TMs. Still, having only one of a TM would make the game profoundly different, and perhaps maybe the game was designed this way to a certain extent. The more you ignore the way the game was designed, the closer you lean towards an environment where everything is sharked to the very limit of the game's legality and beyond. The same arguement of intent of the game goes for cloning. You can say that what you obtained has been obtained once and you have no right to shark or clone an equivalent, but that too becomes skewed with things like registering a team for pokemon stadium or using a mega memory card. So much of sharking ethics is so subtle and so many key points exist that it is all up to the individual to hear arguements and more importantly weigh the impact that it's more of an individual decision. Nevertheless, this has been a great discussion.

- - - - -
http://giovanni.sourcecod.com/
A ridiculous amount of guides and Pokémon fanfiction inspired by Joseph Conrad and Aldous Huxley.

From: California | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 08-16-2001 06:16 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What I think is that if you've already done something once on GB, you've demonstrated proof that you could do it again. Being able to get a TM is proof enough that you COULD get 99 of them. Catching an FFFF Snorlax is proof enough that you could do it again, but you could also clone it. Using Shark to get multiple copies, instead of cloning, is less risky to the save file, and so I prefer that method. That's what I believe should be the minimum for being able to shark in tournaments.

Straight maximum DVs, on the other hand, require an average of 4000 hours of gameplay, and that's if you're only using Pokemon who you can trigger fights by walking up to the icon and hitting A. Other Pokemon would take even longer. So I dont think too many people would have natural max statters like that.
Of course, the fact that the NOA Reps have been caught sharking could be interpreted as a justification of your own max statters. My opinion is that you should fight the tournament using your trained monsters, but when you go up to face the rep, I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to use your own sharked max statters. Anyone care to argue that?


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
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posted 08-16-2001 08:00 PM      Profile for Random Loser   Email Random Loser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't see why everyone feels the need to justify themselves. If you use a shark, you're cheating, plain and simple. You're trying to draw a line between moral and immoral cheating? I use a shark, I cheat at the game, I can accept that. Jolt's little thing with the Snorlax is probably the worst example of this. You caught it once, therefore it's possible, therefore it's not cheating to cheat to get it again? I think it's been proven possible to get max stat monsters, the fact that someone, somewhere did it makes it possible. So therefore you can shark to do anything legal, DVs and all, and this isn't cheating? Bleh...
From: Uni of Virginny | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 08-17-2001 02:58 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"If you use a shark, you're cheating, plain and simple."

This opinion is actually my gripe right here.

Webster: Cheat - To violate rules (as of a game) dishonestly

I feel that if you aren't breaking the rules dishonestly (meaning sharking illegal things), you aren't really cheating. I'm not even sure that you actually break the rules of the battle when you shark, though you certainly save yourself time in the one player game.

So yes, I draw the line at moral and immoral cheating, because if I walk up with a bunch of guys I caught and hand raised on one day, and a truckload of sharked guys another, there is no effective difference. The only advantage my "cheating" has put me at is that I didn't spend hours on my sharked team. They both fight the same way. From your perspective not only can you not tell, but there won't be any difference.

Did you masturbate this morning? Your answer doesn't have meaning, because not only can I not verify it, but its absolutely superflous to the goings-on at hand.

This kind of breaks down for max stats, though, which is why I'm iffy on them.

The other arguement:

There is absolutely no room in my mind for the possibility that the game was meant to be played with one of X, Y, and Z TMs, limited PPups, etc. Why?

Well, here we go:

1- The game encourages you to trade with a friend. This way you can get multiple copies of things.
2- Nintendo encourages you to purchase multiple copies of the game. This enables you to restart the game and play through again to equip your prize monster with the correct moves.
3- The game link wasn't an oversight, it was a concept the game was built around (interviews with Satoshi absolutely confirm this: he mentions seeing two gameboys connected and imagining liitle insects running back and forth on the wire). You aren't cheating when you have a team with multiple whatevers, you are playing the game the way it was meant to be played.
4- Nintendo has had several sets of tournament rules: there were even some in Japan that didn't make it over here (for instance, Stadium 1 had cups that were in their Stadium 2, but we never saw them: they also had tournaments that had some not quite finished rules).
5- In metallics they set it up so you can trade TMs. Wow, that's real easy!


You were meant to play the game over and over. Before it came over, people were talking about how some people could beat it in such-and-such hours, and I figured the reason was to have multiples of rare things...

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Subject: Ninja and Opensource


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
theclaw
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posted 08-17-2001 06:10 AM      Profile for theclaw   Author's Homepage   Email theclaw   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am willing to shark ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that I want to have or see! I don't have any morals. Sharking Max Stats and Max DV's Pokemon is fine with me.
There is no way to tell if a pokemon is max stats when you first see it.

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Come to my web site at http://geocities.com/theclaw135 . My message board is at http://pub081.ezboard.com/btheclaw135selectriccastle.

From: Pokemon World | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 08-17-2001 09:32 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Captain Falcon,
I would have to disagree with you on the way you are interpreting cheating.
The Webster definition is fine, I am not arguing that.
I understand that hacking the game within the limitations of what is possible saves time. I also understand when you say that this method is difficult to detect.
Now, ask yourself if the game was meant to be hacked...
Does Game Freak intend us to raise the pokemon by hand or hack them?
If they meant for us to hack them then there would be no such long process of pokemon growth. Gaining experience and leveling up the pokemon are part of the rules that the game must be played. Many do not agree with it, I understand. Many say that training is a waste of time, I understand that too.
But the fact remains that those are the rules of the game. Pokemon are supposed to grow in stregth slowly, counter responses to meta-game enviroments is supposed to also be slow, it is supposed to be a process instead of a instantaneous reaction where you can have bran new pokemon to contest against certain variables in a meta-game enviroment.
This inbalances the game because it corrupts the adaption process it also encourages players to cheat in everything else.
Maybe what I said was not too clear, compare it to a professional athlete.
It is possible for that athlete to reach a certain level of performance in so mnay years, but if the athlete had the mentality you have about working hard for your goods, that athlete would take genetic enhancing drugs to speed up performance because training is a "waste of time".
Genetic enhancing drugs are illegal in sports for a reason, the same reason that hacking the game to enhance your pokemon is cheating, the same reason that printing your own M:TG cards is cheating, it is the same principle.
I know Pokémon is not the Olympics or anything but just that concept alone is similar. Snce there is little way of detecting cheating, the best thing to do in a tournament enviroment (so far) is to have an isolated Strategist-minded game enviroment that works like a lightning rod to channel away the players that cheat from the players that don't.
But since no one can tell, is Pokemon doomed to be a sharker's game? Where the most skilled hacker wins over the hard work of the honest Trainer?
I don't like to think so but that is the way it looks without Nazi-like tight security...what I mean by that is that the only sure way (that I could think of) of making sure a Trainer game enviroment is clean is to play the game only in League meetings so the judge(s) can supervise those playing the game and make sure no one hacks or duplicates and save their game in a MegaMem to make sure they don't dick with it when they leave.
Problem with this is that it just seems like such a hard-ass security way of playing a relaxed and friendly game JUST to make sure the Trainers have a pure enviroment to play with...but then again I think this method would only make hacking look better that it already does killing the whole spirit of the game in the process...

If any of you have a better idea, I'm listening...

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 08-17-2001 10:04 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
theclaw, this is the wrong topic for you. Almost everyone here plays like that when it’s just for fun...

But I’m talking about TOURNAMENTS!

If you go to a competition with that cart, they’ll kick you out, simple as that. Two things:

1. I do not expect to go to any tournaments, because NOA would never send one out here. It is simply a DISCUSSION about sharking and tournaments.

2. The only time you should be allowed to use those sharked monsters at a competition is when you go to fight the rep. If the judges don’t let you use max statters to fight THAT battle, since the reps themselves shark, then they have a SERIOUS worry that anyone who even uses the same methods will undoubtedly beat them. If they have straight maximums, you should get them too because then the match is pure strategy, not “My Snorlax has 18 more HP than yours”.

Read my earlier posts in this thread for the rest of my opinion.

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ]


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
CrystalMeth
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posted 08-18-2001 02:06 AM      Profile for CrystalMeth   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Dreamer:
is Pokemon doomed to be a sharker's game? Where the most skilled hacker wins over the hard work of the honest Trainer?

The problem with that argument is that as along as your sharking perfectly legal things you can't tell the difference between a hacker and a trainer. They will both be on equal ground, so it doesn't matter. Obviously this excludes sharking DVs, that I am totally against. But as long as the sharking you're doing doesn't give you an unfair advantage over your non-sharking opponent, shark away!

- - - - -
-Crys
Meow!


From: Hell on Earth | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MK
is somewhat large.
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posted 08-18-2001 03:32 AM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like the way you think CrystalMeth
Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 08-18-2001 05:39 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First off lets trash the steroid analogy, something that comes up each and every single time this happens.

Pretend that a substance comes along that makes you stronger and faster. It helps out every sport. Does every one use it, or is it disallowed so that human performance can be judged without this substance?

It actually depends on side effects, honestly. If you couldn't take increasing amounts of this miracle substance, balancing risk with gain, if it had no downside... yes, people would use it, and it wouldn't be illegal.

This is far from steroids, however.

That was to show how it's a bad analogy. Now I will show how it isn't even one to begin with:

The world's strongest man, given steroids, becomes stronger.

The equivalent statement isn't true for pokémon. At all.

Steroids take you beyond natural human performance. The kind of modification we are talking about doesn't.

But the fact remains that those are the rules of the game. Pokemon are supposed to grow in stregth slowly, counter responses to meta-game enviroments is supposed to also be slow, it is supposed to be a process instead of a instantaneous reaction where you can have bran new pokemon to contest against certain variables in a meta-game enviroment.

Your basis for the arguement is "the game was written the way it was written because it was written that way".

However, the sped up metagame really does seem like a valid point at first... at it's heart, it is.

The problem is that your arguement is this: in a group of players, the one who should be the most adaptable isn't the one with the greatest tactical skills: it's the one with the most free time.

Also, it implies that there is a set time for the metagame to develop, which, as I'm sure we know, isn't the case.

And the comparision to Magic would assuredly not be printing one's own cards, it would be making proxies ("The forest in this deck is actually ancestral recall"), which might be what you meant.

Where the most skilled hacker wins over the hard work of the honest Trainer?

It has nothing to do with skill with the shark. The entire reason I feel strongly about this is:

The best person at picking movesets, putting together teams, selecting items, and making in battle calls should win. Simply put: the person who is best at making all the tactical calls that make up the pokémon link battle should win.

Here it is even smaller:

The player that is better at link battles should win link battles.

I don't think that sitting around fighting the same things a jillion times should make you better off in a link battle, as much as I have done that.


The attitude of many of the purists reminds me of some lyrics by The Offspring:


The more you suffer...
The more it shows you really care...
Right?


That being said, I do understand how, after playing oodles, one thinks that that behavior, undeniably part of the game of pokémon, should be rewarded in link battles. The reason why I think it shouldn't is simple: the levelling and catching are not part of the link battle, even though they are part of the game in general.

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Subject: Ninja and Opensource


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
FreeZeR
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posted 08-18-2001 09:16 AM      Profile for FreeZeR   Email FreeZeR   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by FreeZeR:
Just out of curiosity, everytime that we have a discusstion about ethicality on sharking, we end up with these breif points:

- Sharking is unnoticable as long as it's legal sharking.
- Shark is a big time saver.

And we also, ALWAYS, have had someone do one big thing about quote people and debunking their comments.
This forum is dedicated to sharking, so why not just continue h4xing? If sharking wasn't big and many people (notice that I avoided the obvious flame for saying everyone) weren't doing it, we wouldn't have it.
I'm not saying that I completely support it in tournament play, nor am I really against it, I'm just trying to point out that we have done this before and, well, this is what we come up with.
Why not leave the topic alone for awhile?
Brand new ROM to begin to h4x...

----------
P.S.
-Ooh! You can get swords dance on Cubone?!? Show, please!


Ummm...did anyone actually read this?
It doesn't appear to be that way...

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WeLCoMe To THe FreeZeR


From: O'Fallon, IL, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 08-18-2001 06:08 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Captain Falcon;
Sorry for the iffy genetic drug analogy...
You're saying that link battles should be separated from the game, and many people do think the same way too.
This is a sketchy subject, no one can say for sure, with absolute proof from Game Freak, if this is the case.
I understand why someone would think that link battles should be separate from the game, mainly because it is strictly a separate game enviroment, unlike the battles you fight with NPCs in the game.
The second, IMO, that the whole game design is not viewed as an RPG.
And third being that no strategy game has ever incorporated RPG events to actually affect the performance of battle and separating the 2 elements is a way to deal with a bran new genere of RPG/Strategy hybrids...
The only argument I can use to argue the RPG/Strategy hybrid separation is to look at the Pokemon phillosophy from a RPG point of view. It says that the more you train, the stronger your pokemon will be, it says that to be a great trainer you have to put love and trust in your pokemon (wich could be interpreted as spending time with them by training them over and over) and it also says that a trainer that is not serious is not successful at Pokemon.
However, whenever the link battles are to be separate or not, by hacking a pokemon, an item, a move, stat exp, etc, you are accomplishing a goal without using the rules already built into the game. The point of a game is to accomplish goals while being bound to the rules, and hacking or duplicating the most insignificant thing violates that and that's why it is cheating.
M:TG has proxys, yes, actually any good player uses proxys...but only to test strategy instead of spending time and/or money trading or playing for the cards, this is why proxys are not permited in tournaments, for the same principle that hacking or duplicating is cheating.
I have a shark, but I only use it for "proxys", in local tournaments I keep it clean.
The method that I came up with before will give everyone the same time to train with, but it is too anal for a game that it's supposed to be fun and relaxing.
One of the reasons I don't like to involve cheating of any sort is because once you open that door, it is very hard to close.
Maybe Game Freak should get rid of the RPG element, get rid of the levels and everything and just focus on strategy having certain elements within the game that shark things for you within the legal specs, so, if the winning players are the ones that can shark the most and make it look natural then everyone should leveling the playing field...
But then it stops being Pokemon, I guess, it becomes sort of like a TCG...
Well, there is no way to prevent hacking so unless Pokemon gets it's own secure server like Diablo II and EverQuest to prevent cheating or the Training-only during League meetings method becomes popular, this game is doomed to be a game where the smartest hacker, that is the one that makes it look like it hasn't hacked at all, wins the props.

CrystalMeth;
But see, the problem here is that no matter how within what is possible you hack, no matter how small, it is still cheating and giving the player that spent $30 on a shark the advantage over the one who wants to play by the rules. If you duplicate an item(wich cripples the Trade balancing variable), if you cut corners training or if you edit genes, you are obtaining a goal without using the game rules and that is cheating.
It is very easy to cheat at pokemon because half of the game, no one is looking at you but you, but in other games, you always have your opponent and other players breathing down your back...


Anyway, I think is sad that the reality is that Pokemon in a world wide advanced tournament level will become a "hack or die" game, I'm sure that Satoshi Tajiri (founder of Game Freak, creator of Pokemon) did not intend it to be this way...

Personaly, I'll try to have a pure Trainer game enviroment localy, I'll have prizes and try to make the enviroment as serious as possible...but...if that doesn't work, I see no point in playing a game where the players need to break the game rules in order to stand a chance...

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
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posted 08-22-2001 12:10 AM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cfalcon:If you *ever* see an illegal move when you haven't agreed that that was allowed (the default is that only legal moves are allowed), power down your gameboy. You are playing pokemon and they aren't.

I believe the same is true when sharking experience.

When Sharker links up with Honest Trainer, the two have been playing different games. Honest Trainer has been playing a game where hard work pays off; where time an dediation are key. Honest Trainer has been playing Pokemon. Sharker has been playing the moveset picking game, the game where hard work is irrelevant. He's been playing, essially, PBS. That's fine, when everyone is playing by the same rules. But this is a different game from Pokemon. Is it a better game? Is it a more fun game? Does it save time? In my opinion, the answer to all three of these questions is yes. That is completely irrelevant. The games are different. They reward different things.

What I'm trying to get at here, is that playing an honest team with a sharked one is pretty damned disguesting.

I just imagine some 10-year old who spent hours trying to work there Pokemon up to the highest level possible. The movesets may not be perfect, but they're respectable. Then they get swept by a Curselax a sharker pulled out of his ass in two minutes. Surely I'm not the only person who sees something wrong with the scenario?

If you want to argue that they are electronicially identical, that's precisely the problem. Their fifty hours translates to your ten minues.

For an analogy (not a perfect one, but reasonable IMO), let's look at money.

Money is hard to earn. It takes a long time working at a job. In order to reach a satisfactory money supply, you have to give up several hours of your life. Why bother to take that long? There is a faster way. Just steal the money, then you'll be on equal footing with all the people who worked to earn it. People's social standing should be based on who makes the best use of their money, rather the based on who has no life and can afford to waste all of their time earning it. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with stealing(or counterfitting).

Of course it's not perfect, but hopefully you all can see where I'm going here.

The RPG side of Pokemon is what got me into it. I remember first hearing about the 2 player battle way back when the game was firs released in Japan. The idea of being able to poor time into my guys and have them come out on top against the slacker of the world is pointless against sharkers. I've since come to realize the existance of and enjoy the strategic side of the game, but it pains me to see the RPG side so blatantly ignored.

Level 100 is a bit hard to reach though. I think there could have been better balance and hope there will be with the next installment.

Ummm....so yeah, I probably haven't said anything particularly new or exciting, but to some up -

Sharking against other sharkers = knock yourself out.

Sharking against honest trainers = bad idea.

...I guess that's more or less what everyone has been saying. *shrug*


From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
j-br
Farting Nudist
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posted 08-22-2001 09:42 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Dreamer:
But see, the problem here is that no matter how within what is possible you hack, no matter how small, it is still cheating and giving the player that spent $30 on a shark the advantage over the one who wants to play by the rules.

I have multiple copies and multiple gameboys and this allows me access things that can't be with just one game (multiple TMs, trade evolutions). It also lets me access many shortcuts to training pokemon (boosted exp, doduo mode on PS2, mystery gift). So I agree with what you say but doesn't this give me an advantage over those who only have one game/gameboy in the same way that a gameshark does? The only real differences are that one *feels* more like cheating, probably because the gameshark isn't an official nintendo product (and that the gameshark shortcuts take far less time). I think the whole arguement over gameshark legality in any form would be mute if the gameshark was made by nintendo.

I like the analagies to M:TG that have been made. The link battle aspect of the game is very reminicent of a CCG and suffers from the same problems. At the lowest level of battling (ie everyone only has one copy of the game and spends about the same time playing) the playing field is level and fun. Similarly at the highest level (where you can have what ever pokes you want with whatever DV's and movesets(so long as they are legal), like on gsbot). However when you play in the middle level things get screwed up as you will always have people who have more money, time, a gameshark, or whatever that will give them advantage over someone who doesn't have those things. This reminds me of when i used to play Magic. At first it was great because me and my friends all had about the same amount of cards and it was pretty much equal. Then i bought boxes of cards and beat them all. They got pissed off at this because they were not willing to spend the extra money so gave up playing. I then looked toward a higher level of play (tournaments etc) and I got pissed off because there were people willing to spend more time and money than me, to a point where i could not compete with them, so i gave up playing in exactly the same way my friends did.

I suppose the point is you have to play whatever level you feel comfortable with. If you believe that link battling should be purely about moveset selection and battle skill and should not be influenced by your skill/luck at breeding or the amount of time you spend playing the RPG element, then find a group of friends who feel the same, shark up your team and go for it. Similarly if you feel link battles should incorporate all those elements without a gameshark, then play that way.

Which brings us back to the original question: should a certain degree of sharking be allowed in tournaments? Well it would be nice if no sharking was allowed but as a good sharkers work is undetectable, and it's likely that someone will shark, then you have to shark yourself in order to remain competetive unless you have loads of sparetime, money for extra carts/gameboys, and are good at breeding etc.

Well that was a bit of a longwinded 'yes' to the original post wasn't it?


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
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posted 08-22-2001 11:54 AM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just a quick point that was raised in another thread -

Personally, I consider duplicating items and TMs just as much cheating as Sharking on max experience. A good deal worse actually.

Experience sharking will only get you to the same level as honest trainers. In the end, it will only save time.

Duping TMs, however, will actually put you on a higher level than honest trainers. You'll be able to to have more moveset diversity and possibilities.

Even against people who restart train or trade for extra TMs, your still cheating them out of time and effort, which is the same problem most opponents of sharking experience have.


From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 08-22-2001 12:16 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*throws Pokéball at gruco's quote*

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K

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Psybro
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posted 08-22-2001 05:01 PM      Profile for Psybro   Email Psybro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the end of the day, aren't the majority of Azurians more interested in fighting for strategy than in hard work?
From: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
PikaCharma
I scanned my boobs and then said I was leaving and never coming back. OOPS!
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posted 08-22-2001 07:46 PM      Profile for PikaCharma   Author's Homepage   Email PikaCharma   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by gruco:

If you want to argue that they are electronicially identical, that's precisely the problem. Their fifty hours translates to your ten minues.

For an analogy (not a perfect one, but reasonable IMO), let's look at money.

Money is hard to earn. It takes a long time working at a job. In order to reach a satisfactory money supply, you have to give up several hours of your life. Why bother to take that long? There is a faster way. Just steal the money, then you'll be on equal footing with all the people who worked to earn it.


That metaphor is extremely unfair. Stealing involves taking something that rightfully belongs to another person. The pokemon equivalent of that would be finding someone who has a pokemon you want, jacking his\her cart, and then trading the desired pokemon onto your cart when the original trainer isn't looking. Original trainer completely loses the pokemon along with whatever work they put into it, and you now have the pokemon. Sharking involves no such thing. It's merely a means of getting things more quickly and easily than you normally would, without doing damage to anyone else's cart, pokemon, or property. I'd think the better analogy would be someone who makes money as a garbage man as opposed to someone who makes money as a stripper. The garbage man works really hard all day and gets minimal pay. The stripper just shakes her tits in someone's face, and she gets a lot of money instantly. But if you were playing poker against the garbage man and the stripper, would you say there's any difference in the legitimacy of their money? ((Note: Yes, I do realize that if it were strip poker, nobody's attention would be focused on the money. That's beside the point. ))

- - - - -
Pikacharma's Bottomless Pit -- Vote 4 Mike, see a dead Togepi, and take the Pokemon Purity test!

"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something made up to scare us kids, like the boogieman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson


From: Never Land | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
gruco
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posted 08-22-2001 08:36 PM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pikacharma -

Yes, I fully realize and acknowledge the point that sharking only boosts the self, rather than diminishing others. I admitted it was an imperfect analogy. The point was about getting something for nothing, however.

Actually, when I first wrote it, I did throw in counterfitting as something of an afterthought, but it'll probably do a better job of explaining things than stealing.

Counterfitting doesn't directly take away from others. It does, however, still cause honest hardworking people problems through inflation. With excess money on the market, the value of all the money other people hold is dimisished. Simularly, when sharkers pull a max stat Pokemon out of their ass, it diminishes all the hard work of honest trainers. With all sorts of sharked Pokes on the market, their legitimate ones lose value.

So, perhaps you'll find this modified analogy more fitting-

Money is hard to earn. It takes a long time working at a job. In order to reach a satisfactory money supply, you have to give up several hours of your life. Why bother to take that long? There is a faster way. Just counterfit the money, then you'll be on equal footing with all the people who worked to earn it. People's social standing should be based on who makes the best use of their money, rather the based on who has no life and can afford to waste all of their time earning it. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with counterfitting.

Psybro -

You are 100% correct to say that most Azurians care more about strategy than hard work. The point is, most Azurians don't even come close to representing the Pokemon community as a whole, and that such a set of priorities changes the game from its original shape and form.


From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
PikaCharma
I scanned my boobs and then said I was leaving and never coming back. OOPS!
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posted 08-22-2001 10:35 PM      Profile for PikaCharma   Author's Homepage   Email PikaCharma   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, you're right about counterfeit causing inflation, but that directly deals with the amount of money in circulation. There is only meant to be a certain amount of money in circulation, and individual people are not meant to introduce more money ((ie, counterfeit)) into the equation, by any means at all. If there's more money in circulation, the existing money becomes worth less, thus harming everyone who already has money. However, increasing the number of pokemon in the world doesn't make existing pokemon worth any less, as there is not meant to be any set number of pokemon in circulation at any given time, and, unlike money, the value of a pokemon is completely unrelated to the total number of pokemon in existence. The introduction of new pokemon into circulation does not harm the people who already have pokemon. While creating your own money is highly illegal and highly damaging, the entire point of the Pokemon game *is* to create pokemon, as the value of a pokemon depends on its personal strengths and weaknesses as compared to the strengths and weaknesses of other pokemon, not on the sheer number of pokemon in existence. The 'number of pokemon' factor is completely irrelevant, except in the most extreme of hypothetical situations ((ie, you had the only Lugia in the world)). If Magikarp were the secret hidden pokemon, it wouldn't make Magikarp suck any less, and even though everyone and their dog has a Mewtwo, it doesn't make Mewtwo any less of a tank. Pokemon creation is not only part of the game, it's the basis of the entire game, and thus, use of a gameshark is a means of saving time, not a means of accomplishing an illegal task. Therefore, the concept of money earned by a stripper vs. money earned by a garbage man is a more fitting analogy than money earned vs. counterfeiting. The stripper will earn money more quickly than the garbage man, but the end result is the same, and the money earned by the stripper doesn't make the money earned by the garbage man go down in value, simply because it was acquired in a more timely manner. Using a GS to give a pokemon a completely illegal move is a whole nother story, and I would definitely consider that to be counterfeit...but if you simply use a Shark as a timesaving device, you might be a pokemon skanky slut and outrage the moral majority, but you're not a criminal, as you're doing no actual damage.

Peace,
Pikacharma the Pokeslut

- - - - -
Pikacharma's Bottomless Pit -- Vote 4 Mike, see a dead Togepi, and take the Pokemon Purity test!

"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something made up to scare us kids, like the boogieman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson


From: Never Land | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
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posted 08-23-2001 12:54 AM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Fed engages in expansionary monetary policy all the time. Inflation is not such a bad thing when it is predictable, controlled, and slow. The problem comes when money supply is expananded so greatly that the short term market can't keep up with the long term changes.

Pokemon will always be made. But the quantity that will be made will be naturally limited by the time available to produce them. A slow, steady, controlled output of Pokemon isn't a problem. When new Pokes and movesets come out left and right via cheating, however, it's the equivilent of hyperinflation.

Okay, well, that's more of an argument of sharking in general(which I don't necessarily oppose), rather than the specific case I'm making, which is that sharking against honest trainers is a no-no(Actually, I don't fully understand your take on the subject? Are you trying to say that there is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with sharking against old-fashioned trainers?).

quote:
Originally posted by PikaCharma:
However, increasing the number of pokemon in the world doesn't make existing pokemon worth any less,

Economically speaking, that's utterly absurd.

Scarcity is the source of value on everything.

Increasing the number of anything in the world does indeed make the already existing ones less valuable(provided it is a scarce resource).

Every time a new Pokemon hits level 100(be it sharked or natural), the value of every other level 100 poke goes down. Regardless of the fact that there is no exact number of Pokemon that are supposed to exist at any given time, there is an exact number of Pokemon that do exist at any given time, and that number defines each Poke's value. I suppose it should be noted(if it wasn't obvious), that this is looking at things from the view of the game as a whole, rather than simply 6 on 6.

....economically speaking.....

And I find an economic analysis valid. In a trainer environment, Pokemon are a scarce resource. When introducing sharked critter into a nonsharking environment, they are not.

quote:
Therefore, the concept of money earned by a stripper vs. money earned by a garbage man is a more fitting analogy than money earned vs. counterfeiting. The stripper will earn money more quickly than the garbage man, but the end result is the same, and the money earned by the stripper doesn't make the money earned by the garbage man go down in value, simply because it was acquired in a more timely manner.

Here is what I find faulty in this analogy -

While the stripper can earn money far more quickly, both are still earning their money. Both have jobs and are employed.

It strikes me that the garbage man is simply spending all of his time fighting level five Magikarp, while the stripper may be fighting balanced stat experience on traded pokerus infected monsters, maybe even on Dodrio mode. Both are staying within the rules of the game, but the stripper uses her time more effieciently and thus gets more done.

The counterfeitter and sharker, however, make up their own rules, and pull the money/Pokemon out of thin air.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: gruco ]


From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 08-23-2001 04:53 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well what about glitches? Do they fall under the umberela of sharking and therefore shouldn't be used against honest trainers? I think high level pokemon part of the missingno glitch can be ignored as it produces illegal pokemon and it like having a machine that prints $134 bills in the money/counterfitting analogy. But what about item duplication (either thru missingno or the g/s dupe trick). I think it's fair to say that it's equivalent to sharking as it produces unlimited items with little effort. Ok then what about using the Mimic/Transform Ditto trick to copy perfect DVs onto a ditto for use in breeding? It provides a big shortcut as instead of spending hours catching dittos all you need to do is find and RBY pokemon with a defense DV of 15 and a special DV of 15 or 7 (not difficult if you've caught lots of pokemon while playing the game) and do the trick. . Sure you still have to breed the pokes you want but you've still saved yourself a lot of time. I don't think that anyone can argue that it was the original intention of the programmers to allow this to happen, the fact that it was fixed in GSC proves that it wasn't. So how does it differ from the item dupe trick? or a gameshark? heck, it's like sharking the ditto's DVs.

How does this fit into your economic example?.... garbage man wins a small amount on the lottery?

While we are on the subject of shortcuts what about pokedex's? Have all the honest trainers researched the moves that pokemon can learn thru breeding, leveling and TMs themselves? Did they hack the ROMs to find out about DVs, stat exp and breeding mechanics? Or did they just use the work of others to help them? Is it fair for someone who has used someone elses pokedex to battle against some who spent a lot of time researching the information for themselves? Isn't it the same as using someones else movesets rather than coming up with your own. 'Standing on the shoulders of giants' springs to mind.

I think the arguement comes down to what you percieve pokemon, as a game, to be. Using pokedexs, standards, hell even the ditto trick, is in the spirit of the game if you percieve the game to be the sum total of it's parts ie. training, trading *and* battling. The gameshark isn't. If however pokemon is just about the battling then the origin of the pokemon doesn't matter and using the gameshark to save time is ok. It would be nice if people could chose which environment they would prefer to play in but this isn't really possible due to the fact that sharked pokemon can be undectable. I suppose you just have to go with your conscience. I personally wouldn't use sharked pokemon in a tournament because i wouldn't get any statisfaction from winning with a team i'd whipped up in ten minutes. Nor would I feel that bothered if i lost with it.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: j-br ]

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: j-br ]


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 08-23-2001 07:29 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PikaCharma,
As opposed to popular belief, stripper DO work hard for their money, however, it is psychological hard work.
You have no idea how straining it can be of your mental health to draw psychological lines between you and your customers, to accept rejection and to attempt to cast an illusion in a customer's mind without lying.
You get pressure from your boss to make money or loose weight or even get boob jobs, you get rejection from customers that don't pay you because you're not their "type".
Oriental men don't like oriental chicks, white guys don't like black chicks, latin guys don't like white chicks, etc.
And those that do like you enough to give you money have constipated wallets that shed $12 for 12 hours. The customers that really do pay you, that give you about $10-$20 on the stage and buy maybe 1-2 lap dances most of the time want something more than to be your customer, happens alot with regulars.
Not only that, you have competition from your fellow strippers in a hypocritical mascarade for survival, secretly "stealing" your customers, gossiping, etc...
So, a garbage man with his $15-$20 an hour(even more after you've "payed your dues" and become a driver) has it easy compared to the average stripper, FYI...

- - - - -
"Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon." -Mr. K

From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
I pay schoolgirls to verbally abuse me.
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posted 08-23-2001 08:39 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by j-br:
it like having a machine that prints $134 bills in the money/counterfitting analogy.

But,
[anal]
134 dollar bills are the equivelent of me making a Lvl 999 Karp with 999 in every stat, being Ghost/Psychic, and Spore/Thunderbolt/Twinneedle/Surf.

Obviously illegal.
[/anal]

Nice post.


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
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posted 08-23-2001 10:39 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
white guys don't like black chicks,

We don't? I never knew that... I gues that my girlfriend isn't really black, she's just in diguise... Really, could you be any MORE racial?

From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
PikaCharma
I scanned my boobs and then said I was leaving and never coming back. OOPS!
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posted 08-24-2001 02:25 AM      Profile for PikaCharma   Author's Homepage   Email PikaCharma   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Um, TCG, you sure know an awful lot about strippers O.o;;
Actually, my best friend is a stripper. She makes great money, works when she wants, and finds the job very easy. She also doesn't engage in any "extracurricular activities" with the customers. She simply shows up, shakes her tits, and walks off with hundreds of dollars every night. But anyways, we're getting a bit off track. ((And no, I will not post her phone number. ))

And the econ example wasn't my creation. I find Sharking rather hard to compare to anything, and econ gives me a headache to begin with. Heh, guess that'll teach me to argue with an example I disagree with by making further use of the example. O.o;;

Anyways..

quote:
Originally posted by gruco:
Actually, I don't fully understand your take on the subject? Are you trying to say that there is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with sharking against old-fashioned trainers?

Depends on what type of Sharking. If we're talking a Lvl 255 Electrode with 999 in all stats that comes out, uses Spore, then sweeps the entire opposing team...oh hell no. The only linkbattle Sharking I support, minus the presence of an "anything goes" clause, are time-saving mechanisms. Lvl100, stat experience, etc. And I don't see anything wrong with those. I have quite a few Lvl100 pokemon in my PC's on my different carts. Some I hand raised, some I sharked\candied, and others I traded for. If I use my hand-raised and box tricked Lvl100 Jolteon against someone's sharked Lvl100 pokemon, I couldn't care less. Even if I knew they'd sharked their pokemon, I wouldn't care, as it has no effect at all on the match itself. If the situations were reversed, and I was using one of my Sharked 'n' Candied pokemon against a player who raised his\hers by hand and then box tricked, I wouldn't feel guilty about it, for the same reason mentioned above.

And also, I want to point out that it is damn near impossible to tell who's an "old fashioned" player and who's a "cheater"....especially with so many blurry lines and shades of gray, not to mention the possibility of the person outright lying if asked directly how they caught\raised their pokemon. Many people I've battled in the past have cha-cha'd with Missingno before, and like j-br brings up, the concept of glitch exploitation can blur the definition of cheating. If someone gets 99 rare candies using a gameshark, is that any more or less acceptable than getting 99 rare candies from fighting Missingno? And to take it one step further, what about Box Tricking? Not too many people know about Box Tricking or the concept of stat experience, and the programmers probably didn't intend for people to find out a way of exploiting the game's recalculation of stats upon depositing\withdrawing a pokemon from the PC. Does that mean that use of the Box Trick qualifies one as a cheater?

quote:
Every time a new Pokemon hits level 100(be it sharked or natural), the value of every other level 100 poke goes down.

That statement is way too broad. When determining the value of a pokemon, there are many more variables entering into the equation than just the level of the pokemon, its stat experience, and the ease with which its trainer acquired his\her TMs. All Lvl100 pokemon are not equally valuable, and the ones that have minimal value to begin with will pose little threat to the value of the decent Lvl100's. You could have a whole truckload of fully boxtricked Lvl100 pokemon, and if they all have poorly planned and poorly executed movesets, or are used on a team that's poorly put together, they ain't worth shit. My point is, the sharkable variables are not the same variables that pose a threat to the value of good pokes. A gameshark can't create a strategy for you. It can't suggest movesets, help you decide which pokemon to use on a team, assist you with practical application of strengths and weaknesses, develop theories of potentially useful specialized move combinations, or boost your ability to make split-second decisions in the heat of battle. Gameshark, when used to accomplish "legal" things, is a timesaver and a timesaver only, not a magical means to an impossible end, as there's no gameshark code to make someone's sucky battling skills stop sucking. And a sucky pokemon with a sucky moveset in a sucky team used by a sucky player poses no threat to the value of anything.

[Edit: fixed typo]

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: PikaCharma ]

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Pikacharma's Bottomless Pit -- Vote 4 Mike, see a dead Togepi, and take the Pokemon Purity test!

"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something made up to scare us kids, like the boogieman or Michael Jackson." -- Bart Simpson


From: Never Land | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twinkle
I'm feeling fat and sassy~!
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posted 08-24-2001 03:20 AM      Profile for Twinkle        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Missingno glitch for item duplication ~ fraud?

- - - - -
Hich loch faauto noxlattoyen.

From: Brinstar | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 08-24-2001 05:33 AM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What’s the point arguing again? That it's annoying to be beat by a person that has sharked a team to specifically beat yours when you've spent months training your team? This doesn't really hold up to scrutiny for a number of reasons. A good player will have already invested a large amount of time creating their team through the initial choice of pokemon and their movesets, research into the metagame, gaining battle skills, testing their team on gsbot, PBS or whatever, and refining their team until they think it’s perfect. This could take months even if the final team is sharked, so isn’t this equivalent to training in the game? If a player has crafted a team well enough it is unlikely that one specific pokemon or team could beat it consistently and therefore it comes down to an individual’s battle skills. So a skilled player should always be able to beat a sucky player even if they’ve sharked a good team (barring luck of course, like fissure hitting every time). Even if someone could create a team that could beat yours hands down every time regardless of skill it’s unlikely that it could beat any other teams unless they are similar to yours. So in a tournament environment you wouldn’t really have to worry unless you met in the first round.

And to be honest if someone can look at your team and shark up team in 10 minutes that will beat it then the fault lies with you not them. You need to go away a refine your team so it can’t be beat so easily, not take away their gameshark so they can’t do it again. If someone did this to me I would thank them for pointing out such an obvious hole in my strategy.

PikaCharma is absolutely right: owning a gameshark doesn’t automatically make you a better player than those who don’t have one. It’s just a timesaver that allows you to create and refine strategies more quickly. Sure this may suck for other people who don’t have one in a limited environment, against a few of your friends for example, but if they have a well made team and a good grasp on battle tactics it shouldn’t matter much. In a tournament you want the most well-crafted, refined team you can come up with and using any shortcut to achieve this (the gameshark, gsbot, glitches, the Internet, discussion with others) is fair game (well not *any* shortcut. Obviously I don’t condone stealing, murder etc)


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gloomboy
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posted 08-24-2001 07:19 AM      Profile for Gloomboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here here! You said it succinctly. You anti-sharkers are people who can't distant the metagame from in-game and thus need to take a look at yourselves.

I just bought a shark,but I only use it to fill up my Pokedex(which would take ages) and dupe TMs(since the duplication trick doesn't work in Crystal). Even so,I stopped using it on Crystal after the first time,since it did some glitchy things to my cart(including erasing my bike! :eek

- - - - -
"You forgot the part where Pikachu faints Rhydon with Thundershock..." - White Cat

"I don't care if you're lost. You show up here,you're nothing but a victim!" - Rocket Grunt under Goldenrod City

"That's what Hypnosis does; it fails horribly." - Uiru


From: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
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posted 08-24-2001 11:17 AM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bleh...

*takes one last stab*

FFT is the only game where my input rivlas Pokemon. There is no trading; no 2 player combat. However, the Job/Ability system in the game allows for interstng move/team combinations that in some ways rivals Pokemon. Despite that fact that I'd would never be able to trade these characters, or play them against others, I poured quite a great deal of time into this game in order to get the best moveset combinations and pick up all the best items. I could already demolish every enemy in the game. I was accomplishing nothing at all of practical value. Still, I was very proud of my creations. I just liked having them around.

When I think about people sharking up teams in FFT, it bothers me(although admittedly to a very small extent). It bothers me that they accomplished what I accomplished by cheating for it instead of working for it. It makes my team feel like it's worth less. However, the knowedge that their team can have no possible impact on my makes it better; they're not really hurting anyone else.

If FFT suddenly grew a trade and 2 player battle mode, do you think my resentment for sharkers would decrease? Does the fact that the teams are now interchangable between and usable against any others now make everything better?

Pokemon is a game of strategy. The game as a whole, however, is much more than that. It's an RPG, a collector's game, a social game, etc.

A gameshark in the hand of a bad trainer still yields a bad trainer. However a shark in the hands of a good trainer is more dangerous than it gets credit for.

Sharking experience doesn't just save a little bit of time. It saves a sickeningly large amount of time. This time can be reallocated towards other things such as catching multiple pokes for good DVs, for tweaking movesets, and for analyzing team chemistry. Sometimes, honest trainers have to cut time or settle for less than ideal in these aspects, in order to find the time for the long leveling up process. Some don't, but those people who do go the extra mile truly deserve the advantage that brings them in the match. Do sharkers deserve that extra advantage when they have it? Did they earn it?

Furthermore, (a point of view I hadn't even considered until seeing this thread) when a new, powerful strategy is developed, it takes time to raise up the proper counter. While that is being raised, the original stratgy will still be able to reap the benefts and have great success. If the opponent works exra hard and brings up the counter extra fast, well, good work. It'll still take time though. Sharking will simply allow that counter too be ready too quickly, and the person who came up with the new strategy won't be able to enjoy the rewards of creating it for very long.

Really, their are two different games we're looking at. The movesert picking and materializing game, vesus the more time-consuming moveset raising game. It all comes down to what you percieve the game to be. If you think it should all be about coming up with honest strategies and then sharking them into existence, that's fine by me. But trying to impose them on others is just wrong. Defeating a six-year-old's home grown Ember/Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Fire Spin Charizard with a completely shaked team is wrong. Well, without letting them know beforehand it is.

I think the lines of mine that TGD sigged sum up my thoughts fairly well.(heh, never thought I'd see TGD and I in such agreement).

And now, I give up. If I haven't convinced anyone at this point, I'll concede that I'm simply not capable of it

*wonders if cfalcon has anything to say*

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: gruco ]


From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Velox
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posted 08-24-2001 12:20 PM      Profile for Velox   Author's Homepage   Email Velox   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Given that my home-bred-and-raised team's DVs are good enough to rival those of Sharkers, I say Shark away. It'll be that much more satisfying when I kick your ass. =P

- - - - -
-Mysterious Priest Velox

From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
j-br
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posted 08-24-2001 01:06 PM      Profile for j-br     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would just like to point out i don't own a gameshark and never will. I would much prefer to develop a team then breed and train it up properly rather than just shark it into existence. It's like putting the icing on the cake. I do this because i like playing all elements of the game but I can see why some people don't like training as it is not as exciting as battling and takes a lot of time.

I will agree that the gameshark accelerates the metagame’s development greatly but doesn’t the likes of gsbot and PBS do the same? Discussing tactics and movesets on forums like this accelerates it as well. Some people prefer a faster metagame and other prefer a slower one. I suppose you just have to choose which one you prefer and find other people to battle who feel the same. You should always let your opponent know beforehand the origins of your team, as telling people your sharked team was trained legitimately is just plain wrong. Then they can decide whether they want to battle with you. Interestingly the honest trainer (or the liar) will never get rejected in this way.

Well hasn’t this been a great argument? I opened this topic thinking all sharking was evil but, after a bit of thought, changed my mind so long as the shark is used responsibly in an environment where all accept it for what it should be - a tool to help you and not something that should be abused as much as possible for your own gain.


From: UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged


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