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Author Topic: [Ethics] Using a Cheat Device
kelv
Farting Nudist
Member # 843

posted 02-14-2001 09:45 PM      Profile for kelv   Email kelv   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it right to use a cheat device when playing Pokémon? Some say yes, some say no, most have no idea what I am talking about. So let me explain a couple of things:

Cheat Device: An item that attaches directly to your GB/GBC/GBA and your Pokémon cartridge that allows you to change values in the games, such as the Game Shark or the Game Genie.

Game Shark: A RAM editor for the GB/GBC/GBA. There is also a Game Shark for the N64. It is also known as the Action Replay.

Game Genie: A ROM reinterpreter for GB/GBC/GBA.

MonsterBrain/BrainBoy: Specialized Pokémon cheat devices that work in the same principle of Game Shark. The BrainBoy is made for the Chromatic games (RBY) while the MonsterBrain for Metallic games (GS). Neither will work optimally on non-RPG Pokémon games (Pinball, PC, TCG)

People say that you should cheat because it can take down the time it takes to train Pokémon. Surely, training Pokémon in the Cerulean/Silver Caves is tough, especially when conditioning your team to L100 or filling those SE points to max out your Pokémon training. In short, people say you should to cut corners. Often times, cutting corners means getting Master Balls, cash, max DVs/SE, or even physical Exp.

Yet, those who oppose this oppose it for the same reason: Pokémon is a game where cutting corners is wrong. By not using a cheat device, you increase its replay value. In short, those who oppose it do so because it is unethical, which is the point of this thread.

There are still some people who choose the middle of the road. Since the Pokémon/item duplication trick and other non-cheat device cheats have been done, there would be, in theory, no way to distinguish a cart that was played normally and a cart that has been tampered by means of a cheat device. I, for one, happen to be one of those people.

Then there are still people who are clueless. There is nothing that can be done about cluelessness other than getting a clue.

I, for one, use a cheating device for several reasons. I do not consider it unethical, yet I do not consider it ethical either (of course, I may not be aware that I am leaning either way). I never play Pokémon for its multiplayer value, and I never share my cart, so therefore I have no worries, since I also selectively pick the cheat codes that I use. In general, when I use a cheat device, I only use these cheats:

1) Cash. Although being cash-strapped is one of the key elements of the game, I would like to skip that part of the game and forget about it completely.
2) Pokémon. I do not have a link cable, and as I said before, I do not engage in any multiplayer activity. However, I would like to use each Pokémon, and so I must use a cheat device to get the Pokémon not present in my cart.
3) Master Balls. Only at the beginning should I consider acquiring Master Balls. I particularly like to get through the RPG part of the game as fast as possible to concentrate on other elements of the game.

I consider battling (namely, trainer battles) the core of the game, so I never cheat at that, and also I do not care about the genes of the Pokémon, or their physical/SE.

Now it is time for me to ask you: do you use a cheat device? Why or why not, and if you do use a cheat device, what is it that you are cheating at?


Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Badcrow
Cute Fluffy Squirrel
Member # 684

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posted 02-14-2001 10:14 PM      Profile for Badcrow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll post my thoughts when you get some more replies.

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Mick_Hale
Total Moron
Member # 419

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posted 02-14-2001 10:55 PM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do I have to do this again?

Well, some things are good, and others are not. Sharking exact DVs is one thing, keeping in mind that it's something like 1/65000 of getting those exact DVs. Sharking max stats, however, is a different story.

I am an extremly lazy trainer. I cannot be bothered with gaining money to buy balls and then using them up trying to catch a pokémon with DVs that I want. At the best of times, I cannot be bothered by levelling up my pokémon wiht the moves that they learn naturally, and thus I make them level 100 and shark the moves.

Unfortunately, G/S and Yellow have the huge disadvantage of not having an item duping trick, unlike R/B. I resort to Gameshark for these items, such as TMs, needed items, and extra balls. TMs you can normally get in the game and you can get all of them. Needed items same thing and also with balls. It's just a matter of multiplying them.

Ultimately, if you ask me, the question of ethics with using a cheating device all boils down to legal movesets and DVs. If you are playing multiplayer, and you have an Electrode with Spore and a Mewtwo with 999 special, that's wrong. But if you're too damn lazy to get your Alakazam to have specific moves that you didn't keep with it while training and you want to give it reasonable exact DVs, I'm fine with that. Anything in game within the RPG does not matter. If you need to get a specific pokémon that's hard to get, use that duped Master Ball and shark which one you want to appear. As long as the end result does not make it unfair in multiplayer battle.

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"I don't know what WW3 will be fought with, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones" - Albert Einstein


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Marril
Farting Nudist
Member # 51

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posted 02-14-2001 11:15 PM      Profile for Marril     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bah, the only use of GS that I condone is getting one-pf-a-kind TMs in R/B/Y/G (not G/S, since you can clone them), and exact DVs for Awakening/Hidden Power...

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"But, it was so artistically done."
--Grand Admiral Thrawn's final words,
Star Wars: The Last Command


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1970Beetle
Farting Nudist
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posted 02-15-2001 01:19 PM      Profile for 1970Beetle   Author's Homepage   Email 1970Beetle   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm with Mick Hale on this one. When I first got my GameShark some 8 months ago, I wanted to use it pull Cut off my Charizard and Venusaur, and that's what I did. Then I started using it to save the TM's I had left, so more than one Pokemon could have Thunderbolt or Mega Drain or Toxic. And that's still what I use it for today. Getting moves back that I should have kept, or teaching TM moves without the TM. And that's it. And it's not cheating. Like I told someone a month ago, if I didn't tell you right now, you'd never know the difference. "Prove me wrong..."

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From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Meowth346
Farting Nudist
Member # 166

posted 02-15-2001 02:57 PM      Profile for Meowth346   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm someone who's seen a lot of "sharking". From Pokémon with wrong attacks to Pokémon all having max DVs and max Stat EXP (yes, I can recognize if your team is like that in Red/Blue/Yellow!)
Here's some of what I see right and wrong:

Neverending Money:
Buy Potions, Poké Ball, Andidotes, I do't care. Just don't buy Protiens and such and items to use in battle, as it gives you an unfair advantage to those who don't cheat and must battle the elite Four just for a couple of stat enhancing items.

Master Balls:
Go ahead and catch'em'all or edit the PokéDex to full. I don't care. Doesn't effect me any, though I'd rather not have to battle people who just "catch" Steelix without having to evolve it, but that's one that I won't bother arguing over.

Max Stat EXP and Attacks on Pokémon:
I refuse to battle these peopel. If they can't take out the time to raise their Pokémon, I can't take out the time to battle them.

Max DVs:
Yes, you're saving anywhere from 5 seconds to 5 decades of searching for a max DV Pokémon. Don't expect to battle me, as after a week of searching my greatest could be a 14/12/9/10 Raticate.

Rebattling Trainers:
If you want to use the Gameshark to *rebattle* Gym Leaders and Trainers, that's fine by me. Not only does it not effect battling against me, but I'm sure it ups reply value for the sharker, which is good.

That's all I can think about at the moment.

--Meowth346

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Researcher in charge of Pokémon Forever, a compilation of about 1/1000th of my work.


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DSCreamer
Orangutan Spouse
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posted 02-17-2001 02:35 PM      Profile for DSCreamer   Email DSCreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I feel the same as Meowth346 about this subject. Cheating in this game would be doing something not normally possible, such as getting a L100 Pokémon from thin air within a few minutes, or changing DVs to what you want. Even if it is possible to have these things eventually, the Gameshark makes it possible to do something not normally possible: to have a L100 ready to go within a short amount of time.

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PFTMIDTPTWFDTUAPWONTDTEOTALTEORTTSAJJTRBOATSOLSNOPTFMTR! -The Team Rocket motto, abbreviated


From: Virginia, United States | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gimme That Bindi
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posted 02-18-2001 02:35 AM      Profile for Gimme That Bindi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it just me or does it seem like there is a topic about the morality of using a Game Shark going on all the time? One dies and another one comes to take its place. Why won't they all just DIE?! *trembles*

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"Cruelty is shameful - unless the cruel man can represent it as a practical joke." - Screwtape from "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis


From: Nunya... as in nunya business! | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MidgetSnowman
Farting Nudist
Member # 1400

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posted 02-19-2001 02:06 PM      Profile for MidgetSnowman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
there are only 3 kinds of sharking I condone

1: TM sharking..faster than dupe codes..and I am NOT gonna play through 50 times to get my team
2:Sharking max STAT EXP, DV's are a big no-no..you get what you catch :P
3:sharking LEGAL movesets, in cases where TM's cant be used..I.E. giving a KINGDRA ice beam..since I cant trade it back and crystal's months away..

other than that it is CHEATING, plain and simple..you are using the GS to get a way too unfair advantage over trainers who have the time to raise naturally...

thats my opinion...

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Love cant continue as a dream, I'll ravage you into a beautiful corpse but, If you want me come find me... ~Moon Revenge, end theme to Sailor Moon R Movie


From: Sedalia,MO, USA | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Psybro
Half Psyduck. Half Slowbro. All cop.
Member # 290

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posted 02-19-2001 02:26 PM      Profile for Psybro   Email Psybro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think there are going to be many anti-sharking viewpoints put forward if you put the debate in a forum dedicated to sharking.

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"The 'man in the trash can' is Oscar the grouch, bitch. you betta be respectin, that motherfucker is old skool, an' he 0wnz yer azz."-Pornbot
I'm not the same guy as the G/S Lord Psybro. So spack off.


From: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
doralee23
Farting Nudist
Member # 165

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posted 02-19-2001 04:51 PM      Profile for doralee23   Email doralee23   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I feel that if you don't ever do any link battles, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with a gameshark.

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One plump Pidgy,or Farfetched, (Pidgetto and Delibird are reccomend for big feeds)
Marinated bird pokemon in olive oil , thyme and basil. Bread with bread crumbs mixed with wheat germ and garlic. Cook in oven at 350 degrees for one hour. Skin sould crispy not soggy or brunt.
Serve with Rice piliaf seson with Megauium leaves.
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I'll mispell If i damn well feel like it!


From: A beautiful feild with bees and choclate milk. | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
kelv
Farting Nudist
Member # 843

posted 02-19-2001 05:52 PM      Profile for kelv   Email kelv   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I feel that if you don't ever do any link battles, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with a gameshark.
I agree.

G/S and Yellow have the huge disadvantage of not having an item duping trick, unlike R/B.
WRONG. In the Metallics, there is the Pokémon Duping trick and all you have to do is just put an item to a lab Rattata to be duped. In Y, though, there is one, but I'm not sure what it is. I haven't played Y in a while.

Getting moves back that I should have kept.
Come to think of it, I no longer have a need for Whirlpool on my Blastoise...

(yes, I can recognize if your team is like that in Red/Blue/Yellow!)
How can you tell if it's been sharked? With the box trick, I don't see how.

*rebattle* Gym Leaders and Trainers
What codes do you do that with?

Is it just me or does it seem like there is a topic about the morality of using a Game Shark going on all the time?
It's just you.

sharking LEGAL movesets, in cases where TM's cant be used..I.E. giving a KINGDRA ice beam..since I cant trade it back and crystal's months away..
I agree to that, too.

I don't think there are going to be many anti-sharking viewpoints put forward if you put the debate in a forum dedicated to sharking.
Maybe you're right, but I can't take the whole message and put it somewhere where it doesn't belong, like the Research Lab.


Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 02-19-2001 06:01 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1970Beetle: And it's not cheating. Like I told someone a month ago, if I didn't tell you right now, you'd never know the difference.

Gah. You kids.

Since when is "cheating" based on whether or not you get caught?

Stop rationalizing. Cheating is cheating.

You might be cheating insignificantly or for the forces of good or whatever excuses you have, but you're still cheating.

If you only use the Shark to do that which is possible thru other means within the scope of the game, you're still cheating!

Come up with another word...

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 02-19-2001).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
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posted 02-20-2001 09:28 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MidgetSnowman:
there are only 3 kinds of sharking I condone

1: TM sharking..faster than dupe codes..and I am NOT gonna play through 50 times to get my team
2:Sharking max STAT EXP, DV's are a big no-no..you get what you catch :P
3:sharking LEGAL movesets, in cases where TM's cant be used..I.E. giving a KINGDRA ice beam..since I cant trade it back and crystal's months away..

That only lists two kinds of Sharking that you condone...

However, the last one would definitely be cheating if you also had a G/S breed-only move on it. Until Crystal comes out, there is no legal way to get a Kingdra with, say, both Ice Beam and Octazooka.

Meowth346:
(yes, I can recognize if your team is like that in Red/Blue/Yellow!)
kelv:
How can you tell if it's been sharked? With the box trick, I don't see how.

Well, maxed genes are extremely easy to identify, if you're familiar with the max stats of the Pokemon. There's no way to determine if the stat exp was Sharked, though.

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"He looks a bit like a Chinese."
-- Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien, introducing a Filipino MP to a group of Chinese law students

[This message has been edited by White Cat (edited 02-20-2001).]


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
KeroKato
Farting Nudist
Member # 230

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posted 03-07-2001 08:49 AM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I say using a cheating device is completely okay as long as you don't enter competitions with them or if you're fighting someone else with a cheating device.

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"Lots of things happen. Either make your own PBS or deal with it." - Prof. Ink


From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
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posted 03-14-2001 11:55 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1- Minor sharking such as pulling HMs off of monsters

If I pull an HM off of a monster, the only one it bothers is me, and it was Nintendo's fault for not letting my chromatic game do that. The myriad of minor cheats that either correct newbie screw ups or provide for interesting play experience without modification of multiplayer, or modification that is "off topic" (for instance, someone not liking the fact that you have a box full of tournament level max stat monsters while you play against them with fairly attained monsters) fall in this category. No one should really have a problem here, and only the anal do (note that this is different from not wanting *your* game modified in any way, which I think is more of personal quirk anyway... for instance, the gameshark is not permitted to touch my blue cartridge...)

2- Moderate modification, such helping out with in game things (infinite money, etc.) that do not greatly modify multiplayer

These cheats do not directly modify your multiplayer game, but save the "role playing" time a great deal. It doesn't save you much time training (after all, stat ups don't solve everything). A person who does this isn't really "cheating" in the way that most people use the word: he isn't trying to pull the wool over the eyes of his opponents, or get some surefire advantage or anything. He is of course, cheating as the word is defined.

3- Heavy standard modification, such as spawning monsters to catch, rare items useful in multiplayer (PPups, holdables), and/or cheating past major in game events.

This is the point at which the sharker begins to have a signifigant advantage over the others. This level of modification doesn't give maxstat monsters or anything, but no one can say the person isn't ignoring the roleplaying aspect. While I personally don't think the roleplaying aspect should stand in the way of a fun multiplayer game, no one will state that the game wasn't designed to have the two integrated.


4- Heavy to total modification. This includes sharking max stats, fetching arbitrary monsters of chosen levels with a given moveset, and other fun things

Everyone tends to have a problem with something from this category, basically because no one has successfully argued that it is fair to be able to shark max stats (1/65536 normally) or a perfect hidden power setup (not as low, but close, and harder to believe because when you catch a monster you must then do a fun dance to find out whether it is close or not: with max stat, you first must have certain stats, then you level them to make sure it's truly max and not just close). Others have a problem with people who keep a buch of monsters around that are documented to be one of a kind (though you can achieve this normally). This is also the only kind of sharking you can reliably detect in a tournament, just because of the phenomonal odds involved in some of the numbers.

Some will also complain about the lack of time spent training when levels and stat EXP are added.

This "final level" of sharking here is the most hotly debated. It is the only one that can be detected in tournaments (specifically, those who shark straight up max stats) whereas the previous ones really will only cut down in game time spent and not affect whether the monsters are tournament quality. This method WILL deliver tournament quality monsters, without doubt.

Making this sillier is the fact that Hidden Power is so very useful on some monsters. I originally avoided sharking max stats, but all they ever did before what cost a couple damage here and there when you were a little off of max in a couple areas with an above average natural monster. I was willing to pay that price. But missing out on a Str 70 elemental attack (specifically, an Str 140 to Str 280 attack against whatever would normally screw you hard) is a sad thing indeed....

Note that there is also a fifth level of modification that contains things that are illegal in the game ("Bugplosion" from chromatics and friends). No one will seriously debate that these are fair or intended at any level. I didn't list it with the others because it is clearly only used for friendly matches where both players know about (and probably use the illegal moves) and desire the "new" moves. Also here is direct stat modification (1023 and other such ridiculous numbers). These are really easy to catch and prevent at tournaments, and Nintendo's own products do not even function with them, as they are not deliberate.

Is any of it "right"? How much? Well, technically if you are using the shark you are probably cheating. It isn't cheating to use the shark to make your Bulbasaur sound like pikachu and be yellow or someshit. Most of the rest of it is.


I won't tell you not to shark your monsters up for a tournament. You want to win, right? Do you want to lose to someone who sharked while you didn't, but you can't prove it? Do you want to lose to someone who just put in lots of more time than you did?

The mature answer is "yes".

The correct answer is debatable, I think.

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-cfalcon

"DAMN those are some skinny sick cows"
-pkthunder sighting a field of horses


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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