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Author Topic: Loser vs. Cheater
Annon
Farting Nudist
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posted 01-10-2001 12:26 AM      Profile for Annon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That team was all sharked, acquired in a matter of minutes.

Whoa there. "Matter of minutes"?

It takes me around 2 hours to Shark a team, even with some of the codes already programmed into my Game Shark.

1. Infinite Master Ball Code
2. Random Encounter With Pokémon (x6).
3. Shark Max Stats (x6).
4. Box/Unbox Pokémon (x6).
5. Shark Movesets for Pokémon (x6).
6. Infinite PP Up Code.
7. Give all Moves maximum PP (x24).
8. Shark Items for Pokémon (x6).
9. Shark correct Gender for Pokémon (x6).


The Point?

Although it's quicker then actually raising Pokémon yourself, I wouldn't imply that Game Sharking takes a matter of "minutes".

-Greg

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cfalcon
OLDNBLD
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posted 01-10-2001 01:18 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't even brought up the fact that sharking a team can be a big pain in the ass, mostly because catching a team of max statters and levelling them would take months (and thats with lots of luck).

But that is a valid point.

It isn't fair to crush a little kid? I don't need Gameshark to make a little kid cry, I just need to be harsh enough to never, ever throw a game: after all, who could savor a victory against me if I hadn't really tried?

The question of whether it's fair or not to have sharked monsters in a tournament is a big one, and the real reason this thread is still going after so long.

After all, you have an unfair advantage against a little kid by knowing what stat EXP is, and making sure you boxed your guys to their own personal (and fair) max. It's unfair to stupid gamers to have intrinsic knowledge of moves, and it's unfair to the inexperienced to be able to watch as a move connects in stadium and be able to walk up to the TV and point to the point where the injured monster's life bar will stop falling. It's unfair to the neophytes to use movesets that aren't Fire Blast, Flamethrower (a horrible name for a move), Fire Spin, and Ember. It's unfair to someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to get L100 monsters via any of the methods (levelling, sharking, candies, etc.) to come up against someone like us in tournament: a L100 Mewtwo is a tank under chromatic rules, but what the heck is a L83 one?

It's hard to get a fair shake in pokémon, because... IT IS A VERY BIG GAME. Most people on this forum know more about pokémon than you would know about a given subject after you took a college course in it... seriously! Nintendo has written more about pokémon than they have ANY OTHER GAME EVER! EVER! Including Zelda and friends! They have a monthly Q&A column on it, they get flooded with questions which they answer as many as they can... and their documentation of it still sucks! It's just a lot of information, and a chunk of it requires knowledge of unpublicized formulas that have to be pulled from the ROM or reverse engineered from statistically sound data that takes thousands of tests...

...and they probably don't like pokémon as much as we do. It can't be fun for them.

So for all of these reasons, playing pokémon at a tournament level of play isn't easy. If you boxed your monsters instead of using lots of candies you'll have a huge advantage over lots of little kids... know all your type advatages, even weird ones, and you'll have an advatage when bug comes out against poison... and so on. This is a game designed to reward obsession.


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-cfalcon

"THIS IS NO GAME. MY ASS IS ON THE LINE!"
-Samurai Goroh, reminding the readers of the Super Famicom F-Zero instruction book that Japanese games are cooler than American ones


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 01-10-2001 01:23 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's still a big difference between learning all you can about a game and going that extra step and modifying the data, tho.

Learning about the game is how people get good. Practice, too. You'd expect a guy who practices to be better than a guy who doesn't...but a Shark is like steroids.

If you devoted your whole life to training, you could probably get as beefy as you can with 'roids, but it's a total short cut and there's a reason they're outlawed.

I know you were just making a point about levels of unfairness, but I see a Shark as going way over the line...unless there's the understanding that everyone is Sharking.

Just my opinion, of course.

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Unless you're nude, your laundry isn't done.

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 01-10-2001).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Annon
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posted 01-10-2001 03:35 PM      Profile for Annon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is Game Sharking "Cheating"?

Most definitely. Nintendo/Game Freak has determined Game Shark to be illegal for Pokémon enhancement. Just like the NBA determined steroids to be illegal for basketball performance enhancement.

Is Game Sharking for "Losers"?

Most definitely ]not. The reason people Shark is to save themselves time. They could potentially sit at the "random DV slot machine", monotonously pulling the lever, hoping to score the unlikely group of 15s. Instead of devoting this massive amount of time "gambling" on DVs, they have decided to take the matter directly into their hands by opening up the machine and ensuring that next time they pull the lever, they'll win.

Thus, I hardly think this makes Game Sharkers “bad people” (losers). It makes them very busy or very lazy people. Or with the recent number of Sharked teams at national tournaments, it makes them a group of competitive people who want to give themselves an equal opportunity to succeed.

However, if a person were to use Game Shark when fighting against a trustworthy group of opponents that agreed to raise the Pokémon themselves, that person could clearly be labeled a “Loser”. Unfortunately, the national tournaments do not fall into this category.

I personally feel Game Shark allows a group of opponents to play Pokémon without the distraction of lower then average DVs getting in the way. I can only imagine the number of times a low Defense/HP Blissey has died to Machamp’s Cross Chop, when on average she should have 3 HP left. Those 3 HP allow her to use successfully use Counter and KO Machamp. Without those Perfect HP/Defense DVs, Blissey’s survivability becomes very limited.

On average, Blissey was meant to survive Machamp’s Cross Chop. Playing the game any other way ruins the intrinsic balance that was programmed with care. Game Shark ensures that balance is kept. Game Shark is an equalizer.

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ProTrainer2001
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posted 01-10-2001 10:23 PM      Profile for ProTrainer2001   Email ProTrainer2001   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
::Claps for about three hours:: I agree Annon a shark is a equalizer.Like I said before only reason I have the shark is for the tm's because I dont have the time to set down catch pokemon train them to level 100 and get the tms.And its basically like doing the missno code.I also agree the people who shark are not losers.Like Annon said "It makes them very busy or very lazy people.".In my opinion he said it perfect.

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"You know ya blew up when women rush the stands and try to grab your hands like some screaming Usher fans"
Eminem


From: Doodie | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 01-11-2001 01:32 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blissey is meant to survive a cross chop on average, but the DV randomization is really there to make sure that that's more random than that, technically.

I don't really like the 'roids comparision. Steroids weren't banned because everyone would need to use them: they were banned because they are unhealthy and external- after all, they're drugs.

Sharks are obviously external, but so is Dodrio mode, and, one could argue, so is having reasonable knowledge of the game- after all, Nintendo has never documented the genes, they've just said that some monsters are better than others. No mention of a random 16 bit integer. Not even any odds given, which wouldn't be hard.

I think only the biggest cock would make the point that sharks should be used in all situations, even friendly ones where everyone agrees not to shark.

I'm just dubious of a national tournament being that. If there were an open and shut way to prevent cheaters from going into the tournament, that'd be nice. But there isn't. So everyone has to deal with sharkers at tournaments.

Personally, I enjoy levelling up monsters. I don't enjoy catching the really really hard to find ones. Usually I'll either shark myself a reasonable monster or just catch a shitload until one is good enough. My Mewtwo (caught, not sharked) is good enough. Max speed, special, hitpoints. Attack is kinda high, and defense kinda low.

I'm OK with that.

Hidden Power might change that for me. I refuse to lose in a tournament to that nonsense: this isn't a couple DV points, this is a *BIG* deal. I can't swap in Graveler against Jolteon: Jolteon would waste him with a strength 280 special attack. (str 70 Water or Grass power)

I'd like Nintendo to explicitly ban that move in tournaments.


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-cfalcon

"THIS IS NO GAME. MY ASS IS ON THE LINE!"
-Samurai Goroh, reminding the readers of the Super Famicom F-Zero instruction book that Japanese games are cooler than American ones


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 01-11-2001 11:32 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't say that all Sharking is losery. It's cool for research and just playing around with the game that you bought and paid for, so you should be able to muck about with it all you like, finding out how things are done, "what would happen if...", and stuff like that.

I think Sharking for tournaments is wrong and losery, tho. OK, yeah, so "everyone does it"...big deal.

I guess this sorta reflects my opinion on life...it annoys me when people don't recycle those cans simply because they say it doesn't make a difference if one person does it. Well, yeah, true.

But "everyone" is made up of individuals and all you can do is your part. If you want to look at things that way, why not kill the odd person here and there? There are billions of people on the planet, who cares about a couple of them?

Er, anyway, I've wandered off course again...

The point is, I don't cheat because I don't want others to cheat, and the only player I can control is myself.

I agree with cfalcon, in that the randomness of Pokemon genes is supposed to be part of the game. It's supposed to mean something when someone tells you "That's one Hell of a Snorlax you've got there!", as opposed to "That Snorlax which is exactly like mine sure got lucky with the CHs!"...

If Nintendo says that Sharking is legal, then I'd happily let cfalcon Shark up clones of my team for use in competition, but as long as it isn't, I'm not going to let the fact that they have no idea whether I Sharked or not convince me to cheat.

Maybe there should be a Colosseum3 mode where all stats are maxed for those interested in strategy-only play. It'd save people a lot of time.

Annon: Playing the game any other way ruins the intrinsic balance that was programmed with care.

I think you're going a bit overboard there...I think there are significant balance problems in the games...they were designed by people who made a few mistakes (and admit it)...it's not exactly like the balance of nature or something.

But I agree with your main point...the Shark is an equalizer and that turns the game into a completely strategy-based thing. But for those same reasons, I don't really care about PBS...those aren't my Pokemon, they're just some numbers I typed in. Anyone can do that. I feel the same way about Sharked teams. Big deal.

I can (well, cfalcon could for me...) Shark up a grep and a Molly Nut Bomb and a Tobybro, but that's not Pokemon to me, that's some other game. Might as well be the card game if all things are equal, nothing ever changes, and anyone at any time can get exactly the same Pokemon I have.

The time "wasted" training a Pokemon is supposed to be important. No one would have 151 L100 Pokemon in real life. They'd have a few of them, maybe, after many years of training, and that would mean something.

The diversity is supposed to mean something. The time spent training is supposed to mean something.

cfalcon: Sharks are obviously external ... and, one could argue, so is having reasonable knowledge of the game...

Yes, but so is practice. Games aren't designed to be equally fair for all people, regardless of training.

Everyone has the same ability to learn about chess, and if you want to play on a competition level, you'll have to learn a lot. Learning pays off, and you are justly rewarded for it.

Using a Shark is like paying 30 bucks to turn your rooks and bishops into extra queens...if everyone decides it's OK to do that, there's nothing really unfair about it, but it's not really chess any more at that point either.

I like the idea of banning Hidden Power in tourneys...but not on my Unown!

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Unless you're nude, your laundry isn't done.

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 01-11-2001).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Blade
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posted 01-17-2001 02:37 PM      Profile for Blade   Email Blade   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Your thinking about the shark all wrong if you think it is like using steriods or making extra queens in chess...you can't normally get those results by doing things normally. These are anologies to using the shark for setting stats directly, using pokemon exceeding level 100 or using it to learn moves thata pokemon could never normally learn. Using it for setting a pokemons settings to ingame maximums is not the same thing because anyone can get these settings on a pokemon anyhow, the only factor is the time it takes to do it. Its like saying people who can pass exams without revising are cheating because they don't have to spend the same amount of time that an average person does to get the same results. The fact is that you can get the same results without using a shark although it is more difficult and time consuming. You can't (fairly) judge people on how they choose to prepare strong pokemon so long as they prepare them within the limits the game sets. That said of course I do agree that hidden power on anything but unown is potentially a very unbalancing thing, particularly with the game sharks ability to manipulate it.

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Mr. K
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posted 01-18-2001 01:56 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blade: These are anologies to using the shark for setting stats directly, using pokemon exceeding level 100 or using it to learn moves thata pokemon could never normally learn. Using it for setting a pokemons settings to ingame maximums is not the same thing because anyone can get these settings on a pokemon anyhow, the only factor is the time it takes to do it.

Yes, but the time it takes to do it is important. Do you know anyone who has 6 legally obtained max-gene Pokemon on their team?

Of course not.

And that's the point. Time spent selecting and training Pokemon is supposed to matter. Gene diversity is supposed to matter. The only thing that invalidates that is using a cheating device.

The point is, no one is ever going to spend the time to legally obtain 6 max-stat Pokemon. If they do, then they are nuts and they deserve to be rewarded for their insanity.

It's only fair that their Pokemon be better than ours.

The time saved is part of the game.

It's like taking a 26-mile bus ride and saying you ran a marathon...OK, yeah, if you walked for a long enough amount of time, you would have finished the course, but you didn't! That's the whole point of running the marathon.

By using a shark, you're just eliminating half the game.

The fact is that you can get the same results without using a shark although it is more difficult and time consuming.

Right. Like you can work out to get in shape, or you can use steroids, which is less difficult and time-consuming...but that's the point.

All that stuff you're skipping with a Shark is part of the game...

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Unless you're nude, your laundry isn't done.


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Blade
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posted 01-18-2001 01:49 PM      Profile for Blade   Email Blade   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, but the time it takes to do it is
important.

Important to you perhaps, but not to everyone.

Do you know anyone who has 6 legally obtained max-gene Pokemon on their team?

Such people will exist and because of the random nature of the game may well have spent less time than someone using a shark doing it too. Think that its fair because they got lucky (though getting all worst stats would involve exactly the same luck).

And that's the point. Time spent selecting and training Pokemon is supposed to matter. Gene diversity is supposed to matter. The only thing that invalidates that is using a cheating device.

Why is time spent catching important for a game tournament? It doesn't make you a better more skilled player, it is just reflective of your spare time. Why should those with more time to spend preparing a superior team win over someone who has considerably more skill and strategy playing the game?

The point is, no one is ever going to spend the time to legally obtain 6 max-stat Pokemon. If they do, then they are nuts and they deserve to be rewarded for their insanity.

I think such a waste of time should be punished rather than anything. IF they time spent preparing was to increase their own skills at the game to give them the better chance such as would be the case in say a beat'em up that would be a different matter.

It's only fair that their Pokemon be better than ours.

That doesn't follow for an essentially random process. If the pokemon provided got better the longer you played, that would be different, you would clearly be intended to play for hours to get the best in that case.

It's like taking a 26-mile bus ride and saying you ran a marathon...OK, yeah, if you walked for a long enough amount of time, you would have finished the course, but you didn't! That's the whole point of running the marathon.

A marathon by definition is a race that is run, it is not a race between buses. Hence taking a bus is beyond the original maximums of the event...akin to using over max stat or illegal moves.

By using a shark, you're just eliminating half the game.

If you have complete the game and won't play it again except for tournaments, how have you eliminated half the game. Eliminating half the game would be using the GS to set half the events to having happened already and sharking half pokemon+items up

Right. Like you can work out to get in shape, or you can use steroids, which is less difficult and time-consuming...but that's the point.

Using steroids is again like using over max stats or illegal moves. You can never achieve the same results without them.

All that stuff you're skipping with a Shark is part of the game...

All what? The hours it takes to get pokemon to level 100 or the months/seconds it can take to get a few max stat pokemon given the random nature of the game. All using the shark does is make things more certain and at the end of the day the shark isn't used to skew the accuracy of moves within the actual tournaments or anything beyond the normal bounds of the game.

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Artie Cuno
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posted 01-18-2001 02:27 PM      Profile for Artie Cuno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a few opinions to add. First, due to personal error, or the error of a certain dumb downstairs kid... You might have lost a move that you wanted to keep on a pokemon. Take my Ho-Oh incident. My downstairs neighbor kid, Jimmy, somehow got his hands on my gamepak. First thing he did? Gave my Ho-Oh Fire blast and removed sacred fire. And then saved. So, I sharked Sacred fire back onto my Ho-Oh at the first possible moment. Is that cheating? Well, technically, yes, but morally, no. See, I wanted to keep sacred fire, and it is a move Ho-Oh naturally learns, so I wasn't really cheating. If I had sharked Sacred fire onto, say, my Typhlosion, then, yes, I would have been cheating. But I wasn't. I repaired Jimmy's error, Flare regained Sacred fire, I was happy.
Or Pokemon. I have spent well over two years searching for Mew, MINUS GAMESHARK. Yep. I tried every trick, tried to get people to trade me a Mew, EVERYTHING. No luck. So I sharked a Mew onto my Red cartridge. Was I cheating? Well, I'm not sure. I spent two years trying to get an official Mew, but never any luck. Now, I was running the marathon, and I finished it on a skateboard, having done the last mile on it. Would that have been cheating? I ran the marathon, and I was behind, then I used the skateboard and won. Now, maybe that was cheating, but I don't care. I have my Mew, which I cherish for it's cuteness factor, and that is that. End of story. I don't use sharkery on DVs because I just don't think it is right. Bottom line: Battle me with a sharked team, but don't shark the DVs. Take what you get.
I got an Ampharos with a Poison hidden power, and that's ok, because she's beaten everything I threw at her. And, no, she wasn't sharked. I took what I got. In shakery as well as non-sharked Pokemon. Once I got lucky, and my sharkery yielded a shiny Smoochum (ok, I was lazy then, but I don't like breeding) Which I caught and trained into a Jynx. Train what you find and like it. If you are lucky, and get a perfectly DVed one, then kudos to you. Maybe there should be a rule, where you can shark the Pokemon, but not the movesets or DVs...
Again, my farty-two cents.

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^_~ GO ARTIE! ~_^


From: A box in a swamp. With your sister. | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Velox
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posted 01-18-2001 04:56 PM      Profile for Velox   Author's Homepage   Email Velox   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The bottom line is: if you were SUPPOSED to be able to get max-stat Pokémon WHENEVER YOU WANTED, Nintendo/Game Freak THEMSELVES would have supplied you with a way to do it.

As for Blissey being able to survive Cross Chop "on average," um...how are absolute max stats "average?" An "average" DV would logically be something like 8, no?

I've said it before, Sharking stats at tourneys is for low-attention-span pissants who can't accept anything less than instant, absolute gratification...

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-Mysterious Priest Velox

[This message has been edited by Velox (edited 01-18-2001).]


From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Pokegod
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posted 01-18-2001 07:11 PM      Profile for Pokegod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Gamefreak should've made the power of the hidden power you get based on how long you've actually trained your Pokemon. Of course you'll still be able to shark, but it would be a lot easier to get hidden power legally!

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If there is true evil in this world, it lies in the heart of Mankind...
-Opening quote in Tales of Phantasia
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From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 01-18-2001 09:17 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
K: Yes, but the time it takes to do it is important.
Blade: Important to you perhaps, but not to everyone.

Important to the designers of the game, and that's all that matters. You can't make up your own rules for a game, simply because you don't like the real ones.

As Velox said "if you were SUPPOSED to be able to get max-stat Pokémon WHENEVER YOU WANTED, Nintendo/Game Freak THEMSELVES would have supplied you with a way to do it".

Exactly!

If everyone were supposed to have max stat Pokemon, there wouldn't be any genes, and it sure as Hell wouldn't be so hard to get even one real max-stat Pokemon.

As for the possibility of someone getting 6 max-stat Pokemon thru pure luck: great! Luck is part of the game. We can all be pissed at the guy who won the lotto, but luck is part of the game. That's how it works.

Cheating to get around a rule you don't like is just childish.

Think that its fair because they got lucky (though getting all worst stats would involve exactly the same luck)?

Absolutely.

Why is time spent catching important for a game tournament?

If the rules for some tournament state that any fair Pokemon is viable, even if you Shark them, then that's fine. PBS is essentially an all-Shark game, but real battles shouldn't be that way (because Pokemon is much more complex than just the battle aspect), unless everyone involved agrees to use different rules (and, hence, play a different game).

That's not the case in tourneys...Nintendo explicitly says that Sharking is cheating, and it's obvious from the game design that pure dumb luck and hard work are both to be rewarded.

Why should those with more time to spend preparing a superior team win over someone who has considerably more skill and strategy playing the game?

Because that's how the game works. If you don't like it, play a different game, but don't cheat.

I think such a waste of time should be punished rather than anything.

Luckily, the rules aren't yours to make.

A marathon by definition is a race that is run, it is not a race between buses.

And Pokemon, by definition, is a game where the capture and training process is part of the game. The only reason you are capable of avoiding these steps is because you cheat. Clearly, that's not how the game is supposed to be played.

K: All that stuff you're skipping with a Shark is part of the game...
Blade: All what? The hours it takes to get pokemon to level 100 or the months/seconds it can take to get a few max stat pokemon given the random nature of the game.

Yes.

All using the shark does is make things more certain...

Which is exactly why it's cheating. It's like rigging a slot machine. Eventually you'll get all 7s, but why bother if you can just take the thing apart and set it to always score?

...and at the end of the day the shark isn't used to skew the accuracy of moves within the actual tournaments or anything beyond the normal bounds of the game.

Right, it's just used to alter the effectiveness of every move used.

Look, I understand that you personally feel that catching and training is boring and wasteful, but you don't make the rules.

As for Artie's story...Sharking to get Mew is cheating, yes. Mew is only supposed to be obtainable via contests and Nintendo giveaways and such. But if you just Shark it for your own personal enjoyment, it's like cheating at Solitaire...if it makes you happy, why not do it? It's not hurting anyone else.

Using a Sharked Mew in a tourney is another matter, of course.

As for the story about your Ho-oh, I think it'd be pretty hard to find someone cold-hearted enough to be upset with you for that. It is, tho, technically still cheating...technically speaking, I guess, you should have kept better tabs on your cartridge. And by Nintendo rules, that's wrong.

But I wouldn't be upset about it.

Again, tho, I don't make the rules.

I've had cfalcon take my L100 team and turn them into a PokeCup team...this is, essentially, cheating. It would be hypocritical of me to use this team in a tourney. It is officially against Nintendo rules, and if I got disqualified for it, that'd be OK.

I won't let him touch my Pokemon's genes (even the ones that really suck), but that's still just my personal line in the sand. There's really no more justification for that than what you do.

I've never used a Sharked Pokemon in a tourney, but I have used my PokeCup team in Stadium. Cheating at Solitaire. It didn't matter anyway, because, even Sharked, I couldn't beat the PokeCup without a (legally obtained) Starmie. Oh well.

Anyway, the issue is simple:

The game is designed with certain rules. The only way to break them is to use a cheating device. That is cheating.

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Unless you're nude, your laundry isn't done.

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 01-18-2001).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Artie Cuno
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posted 01-18-2001 09:43 PM      Profile for Artie Cuno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PRECISELY, Mr. K!
And, as it turns out, my dumb MOM gave the cartridge to the kid while I was training my red version 'Mon on Stadium. She hates Pokemon- once I found my gameshark in the trash! However, now I hide my GB, Shark and cartridges in my room. He he he. And that kid lost his Blue version Blastoise for that- I stole it! He he he. *evil snigger* But I gave it back- after sharking a moveset of Splash, Bubble, struggle and nothing onto it! And the strangest thing? Jimmy was HAPPY about it! That kid is DUMB.

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^_~ GO ARTIE! ~_^


From: A box in a swamp. With your sister. | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
N-Man
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Member # 733

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posted 01-20-2001 07:07 AM      Profile for N-Man   Author's Homepage   Email N-Man   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, but Bubble has STAB!

I think you can Shark up to a certain level. I have a Shark but none of my Pokémon have max. stats, only in some areas. I do shark the DVs, but to a certain amount: I just take a number an divide that over the DVs of my Pokémon. That way I feel less guilty because the stats are than almost the same as like I legally caught them.

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Behold my graceful ball dexterity!
- Juggler Irwin in G/S

My best G/S teams:
Powerhouse v.1.01.10
Ultrabalance v1.01.20


From: Rotterdam, Holland | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
ImmortalFreezer
Farting Nudist
Member # 1261

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posted 01-20-2001 11:00 AM      Profile for ImmortalFreezer   Author's Homepage   Email ImmortalFreezer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This topic is nuts. Heres my 2 cents anyway.

Let me start by saying that I dont like the "game" Pokemon. By "game" I mean walking around the little Game Boy world and getting badges. Its tedious and boring to me.

I dont like catching Pokemon and raising them. Nothing beats sitting around doing the same thing over and over and over for 10 hours to gain from level 75 to level 90 does it? That cant quite compare to catching Pokemon after Pokemon looking at its stats hoping to find the one I want though. Ive nearly fallen asleep doing these things. Its boring to me. (Maybe not to other people but it is to me)

How can anyone say that catching a Pokemon with high stats and raising it to level 100 takes any skill? It doesnt. It takes luck, patience, and insane amouts of time that I generally dont have.

While Im not fond of fiddling around with raising Pokemon, I love the battle aspect of the game. Its strategic and fun (when the playing field is leveled). Its what I play Pokemon for. So how do I manage to level the playing field and fully employ the strategy aspect of a game without spending months doing what I dont like about the game? Gameshark.

What are games about? Theyre about fun. If it makes me happy to make Link do backflips off of the frozen Zora falls until he breaks his legs, Im gonna do it. If I like to occasionally make a character invincible an a Resident Evil game so I can run around like a madman blowing up everything in sight with no backlash, why not do it? If I like to battle Pokemon on a level playing field, then why not save myself 200 hours and shark a couple Pokemon? Its not like Im making the Pokemon undefeatable or outside of their natural limits.

Its a game. Its about what pleases the person playing it.

If I wanted to, I could play Pokemon for a year straight and get 6 5-way max stat Pokemon. I come out of my cave and go show some people. Do you think anyone's going to believe that I actually got 6 5-way maxes without cheating? Hell no they wont. So if you want 6 5-way max stat Pokemon, either shark them or tape yourself sitting around playing Pokemon for 200 hours. I'll take the first option thank you very much.

Its not like I go to tournaments. Most tournaments are full of little kids that have no idea what theyre doing anyway. You dont need max stats to shred them. National tournaments will have sharked Pokemon galore anyway. The only people I usually play against are Stadium (Which wont complain), PBS (Everyones on a level field anyway), my brother, and his friends (They shark anyway so I might as well). In all of these above sitations, I see no problem with sharking (as long as the codes used do not cause a Pokemon to exceed naural limits set by the game) as it hurts no one.

To sum it all up: If it makes you happy and hurts no one, do it.
Sharking for personal competition and enjoyment: Good.
Sharking for tournaments: Bad.

Wow. That ended up being more than 2 cents. More like a $1.50. Thanks for reading this long ass post.

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Sig coming Feb. 2001!
(June 2002 if Nintendo makes it)


Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Blade
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 820

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posted 01-20-2001 07:04 PM      Profile for Blade   Email Blade   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You also have to figure in the detectability of a "cheated" team. Provided you don't go for all max stats which is a little obvious because of the probabilities involved, then it is essentially impossible to distinguish between a legal "I took forever/got very lucky in a few seconds getting strong pokemon" and a "I have more to do than play this game endlessly to prepare for a tourney" 'cheat' approach of sharking, how can you possibly complain about the means if the end is the same...you will still have to face people who have strong pokemon with well constructed movesets either way. The only difference is superficial "well if i'm going to do it the hard way everyone should" kind of attitude IMO.

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Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 01-22-2001 07:03 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ImmortalFreezer:
Sharking for personal competition and enjoyment: Good.
Sharking for tournaments: Bad.

I agree entirely.

Blade: ...it is essentially impossible to distinguish between a legal "I took forever/got very lucky in a few seconds getting strong pokemon" and a "I have more to do than play this game endlessly to prepare for a tourney" 'cheat' approach of sharking...

Cheating is cheating, whether or not the ref knows about it. Inability to notice that you cheated is no excuse for cheating.

The only difference is superficial "well if i'm going to do it the hard way everyone should" kind of attitude IMO.

The point is, people shouldn't cheat. It doesn't matter if they cheat a little bit instead of a lot, it's still cheating.

Would it be OK with you if you were playing football and the refs sucked and the opposing team kicked the ball ahead a yard or two every other play? Or would you just start cheating too? Oh, wait, I think I know the answer already...

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Unless you're nude, your laundry isn't done.


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
kelv
Farting Nudist
Member # 843

posted 01-27-2001 10:01 PM      Profile for kelv   Email kelv   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, if Nintendo put a gene lab in the game we wouldn't be making this argument now...

Then again, why would Nintendo put a gene lab in the game? It will just ruin the whole purpose of it!

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Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
OrientalNoodle
Farting Nudist
Member # 616

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posted 01-29-2001 01:12 PM      Profile for OrientalNoodle   Author's Homepage   Email OrientalNoodle   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By the way, one my friend caught his Mewtwo with a GREAT BALL.

Then again, he has a legendary Cloyster that has Aurora Beam, Ice Beam, something that I don't remember and TELEPORT.

Oh, and I caught mine with an Ultra Ball

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ICQ Message Session, 4.1.2001:

22:48 OrientalNoodle> Tell me your opinion on Pikachu.
22:49 Philbo> I can't express it in words

The words f**king and die come into it over 150 times tho

Note: Phil's message was censored due to it's harsh language


From: Hanko, -, Finland | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Blade
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 820

Rate Member
posted 01-30-2001 03:08 PM      Profile for Blade   Email Blade   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cheating is cheating, whether or not the ref knows about it. Inability to notice that you cheated is no excuse for cheating.

But if no one but me knows that I have cheated, the point is moot because I am in the same situation that I would be in anyway had I not cheated and used other means to do it. My situation in competition remains unchanged appart from the free time I had to do other things in the run up to the competition.

The point is, people shouldn't cheat. It doesn't matter if they cheat a little bit instead of a lot, it's still cheating.

By this reasoning taking the shortcuts in mario kart when the other players don't know about them would be cheating.

Would it be OK with you if you were playing football and the refs sucked and the opposing team kicked the ball ahead a yard or two every other play? Or would you just start cheating too? Oh, wait, I think I know the answer already...

Thats allowing one team to do something the otehr team cannot do. This is not my argument. People can or cannot shark for a tournament, its almost entirely their desicion how they prepare for the tournament so long as they don't use things that are beyond the limits of what is already possible in the game.

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Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 01-30-2001 04:17 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blade: But if no one but me knows that I have cheated, the point is moot because I am in the same situation that I would be in anyway had I not cheated and used other means to do it.

I didn't say that others could detect that you have cheated. I just said that cheating is cheating, and when you cheat, you're a cheater.

If you're happy being a cheater, that's fine, but it doesn't make it right.

If you murder someone and don't get caught, that doesn't make it right.

It's a very simple concept.

My situation in competition remains unchanged appart from the free time I had to do other things in the run up to the competition.

...and, of course, you're now a cheater.

K: Would it be OK with you if you were playing football and the refs sucked and the opposing team kicked the ball ahead a yard or two every other play?

Blade: Thats allowing one team to do something the otehr team cannot do.

No.

If the refs suck, you can do it too.

So, you think if everyone cheats, then that makes for a good game?

My mama warned me about people like you...

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"...interesting things happen along borders -- transitions -- not in the middle where everything is the same." -Neal Stephenson


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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