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Author Topic: Sleep talk and Extreme Speed, Counter, Mirror coat, and Vital Throw
Sean A.
Farting Nudist
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posted 02-06-2002 07:34 PM      Profile for Sean A.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As many of us know, Sleep Talk doesn't work with Psuedohazing moves because they rely on going second so you can't have an Aerodactyl with Rest, Sleep Talk, Whirlwind, Roar. However, how does Sleep Talk work with Extreme Speed. If Ex Speed always goes first, what happens when an Arcanine uses Sleep Talk against a Starmie? Also, though we know how the Psuedo hazing are effected, but what about Counter, Mirror Coat, and Vital Throw which also always go second?

- - - - -
Three Stages of Galactic Civilization:
1)Survival (AKA: How): "How do we eat?"
2)Inquiry (AKA: Why): "Why do we eat?"
3)Sophistication (AKA: Where): "Where shall we eat lunch?"

From: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cesar
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posted 02-07-2002 04:39 PM      Profile for Cesar   Email Cesar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm guessing that extremespeed will still work. Its like if two arcanines where off against each other and they both use extremespeed, would the first one hit and the other miss? I'm pretty sure they both hit. On the other hand, I'm almost positive counter/vital throw/mirror coat will miss if the user went first.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
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posted 02-07-2002 04:56 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As many of us know, Sleep Talk doesn't work with Psuedohazing moves because they rely on going second so you can't have an Aerodactyl with Rest, Sleep Talk, Whirlwind, Roar.

Really? What if your pokemon uses sleep talk after the opponent attacks?


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sean A.
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Member # 2277

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posted 02-07-2002 06:38 PM      Profile for Sean A.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Really? What if your pokemon uses sleep talk after the opponent attacks


Yes, if the opponent moves first Roar and Whirlwind will work, but not if it goes first, i.e. using Aerodactyl against anything but a higher DV Jolteon, Mewtwo, Crobat, or an Electrode.

- - - - -
Three Stages of Galactic Civilization:
1)Survival (AKA: How): "How do we eat?"
2)Inquiry (AKA: Why): "Why do we eat?"
3)Sophistication (AKA: Where): "Where shall we eat lunch?"


From: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 02-08-2002 06:21 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/sleep_talk.html
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
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posted 02-09-2002 12:38 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vital Throw works regardless of whether it goes first or second. The others (Counter, Mirror Coat, Roar, Whirlwind) have to go second to have any effect. That's the idea behind Curse/Vital Throw Machamp (used against Blissey and, in a pinch, Skarmory).
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Sean A.
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posted 02-17-2002 03:53 PM      Profile for Sean A.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would you be so kind as to explain the Curse/Vital Throw Machamp? I've heard of Cursing Champs, but not with Vital Throw.

Also, is Vital throw the 100% accurate attack or is the move after so you can use a Vital Throw/Fissure Combo?

- - - - -
Three Stages of Galactic Civilization:
1)Survival (AKA: How): "How do we eat?"
2)Inquiry (AKA: Why): "Why do we eat?"
3)Sophistication (AKA: Where): "Where shall we eat lunch?"


From: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Continue
Farting Nudist
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posted 02-19-2002 04:43 PM      Profile for Continue   Email Continue   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sean A.:
Also, is Vital throw the 100% accurate attack or is the move after so you can use a Vital Throw/Fissure Combo?

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/vital_throw.html

quote:

Would you be so kind as to explain the Curse/Vital Throw Machamp? I've heard of Cursing Champs, but not with Vital Throw.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/roar.html
http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/whirlwind.html

I was tempted to just give the links and let you figure it out, but I decided to be a little more helpful.

Curse/Vital Throw Machamp is used to defeat the psedohazers because of the combination. As noted by oporaca (who was the first one to note this strategy on this board), Roar and Whirlwind need to go last in order to work. Curse is used to boost Machamp's Attack and Defense, but more importantly to drop its Speed, so that its Speed becomes slower than any other pokemon. Vital Throw is then used because it is in the same priority category as Roar and Whirlwind. Machamp will then makes its attack according to its Speed rating as normal, which after using Curse will be slower than the opposing pokemon. This will cause Roar/Whirlwind to be used first and therefore fail, leaving Machamp in and get an unanswered hit on the opposing pokemon.


From: Boca Raton, FL | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sean A.
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posted 02-20-2002 07:27 PM      Profile for Sean A.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I figured it had something to do with that, however, anything with Whirlwind will still pwn Champ since it's a flyer.

- - - - -
Three Stages of Galactic Civilization:
1)Survival (AKA: How): "How do we eat?"
2)Inquiry (AKA: Why): "Why do we eat?"
3)Sophistication (AKA: Where): "Where shall we eat lunch?"

From: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tyranitar 101
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posted 02-23-2002 11:23 PM      Profile for Tyranitar 101        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not really, since most Champs pack rock slide. This coupled with curse makes short work of flyers, except skarm

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The loner from Mt. Silver

It ain't bragging if ya can back it up.

From: Mt. Silver | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
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posted 02-24-2002 01:13 AM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just because Rock Slide/AP/Rock HP is so widely used among Cursers, Skarmory seems to be the only Whirlwinder widely used. It would take two uninterrupted Curses to bring Machamp up to high enough stats to take out Skarmory in a Drill Peck-vs.-Vital Throw war. (Vital Throw would be the most effective attack in this case. Rock Slide is less powerful counting STAB, and both it and Cross Chop will stop Whirlwind dead in its tracks.)
Vital Throw/Curse Machamp is more effective against Blissey, as virtually none of Blissey's moves can stop it, as far as I know. Blissey would usually have Counter to stop Machamp, but it suddenly becomes useless. Minimize and Double Team become wasted turns. And, with STAB, increased Attack, and 2x effectiveness, Blissey certainly won't last long. I haven't done calculations for if Skarmory switches into the Vital Throw, but the battle should be easier then.

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Sean A.
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Member # 2277

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posted 02-24-2002 12:26 PM      Profile for Sean A.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Skarmory seems to be the only Whirlwinder widely used
I disagree with that, Zapdos is ultra common, and if you don't see Zapdos, you sure as hell will see Raikou!

- - - - -
Three Stages of Galactic Civilization:
1)Survival (AKA: How): "How do we eat?"
2)Inquiry (AKA: Why): "Why do we eat?"
3)Sophistication (AKA: Where): "Where shall we eat lunch?"

From: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged


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