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Author Topic: Semi-Pointless Discovery: Minimizing the Attack Stat
Jolt135
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posted 11-28-2001 07:56 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is a well-known practice on this board that if you have a Pokemon with no Physical attacks, you take a 1 Attack DV to reduce Confusion damage.

I was wondering, though, if the Stat Exp. variable could also be reduced to decrease Attack even lower, and by how much?

Obviously, it would be easy to Shark those values all the way down to 0. However, my goal was to find the lowest LEGAL value that Attack could have while all other stats were maxed.

It was a problem that I was working on for two whole days, and even now it still has a slight bit of incompletion. Here is my research.

To get the low Attack, you want to battle Pokemon whose base Attack stats are as low as possible, to limit the Stat Exp. received in Attack. For a start, before battling at all, I use 10 stat drugs of every variety except Protein, so the other Stat Exp. values start at 25600. To max out stats, those values must all be at least 16 (63˛) – 8 (63) + 2 = 63002.

Best ratios of base stats in each stat vs. Attack:
HP: 50, Chansey
Defense: 23, Shuckle
Special A: 7.5, Blissey (Chansey close behind at 7.0)
Special D: 23, Shuckle
Speed: 10, Chansey

So trying to find a solution using only Chanseys and Shuckles seems reasonable. There are five equations that must be considered to find the optimum solution:

250a + 20b ≥ 37402
5a + 230b ≥ 37402
35a + 5b ≥ 37402
105a + 230b ≥ 37402
50a + 10b ≥ 37402

The optimum solution is the one involving integral values for a and b that produces the smallest value for 5a + 10b. After graphing everything out, I found the best solution. You would have to battle 140 Shuckles and 1049 Chanseys, giving Stat Exp. for Attack of 6645 (HEX 19F5). Plugging 6645 into int(((√ (V – 1) + 1) / 4), this value adds just 20 points to your Attack score. (Yes, I know that Blissey has a better Special-A-to-Attack ratio, and that this might improve it. However, ignoring the “int” command in the above equation, we get 20.6292..., and I doubt it would improve on that enough to knock it below 20.)

The one piece of missing research is: Since there are only 5 areas to enter Stat Exp., how does that work with two Special stats? If Special Stat Exp. is transferred from Special A, the above solution is still best. If, however, it transfers from Special D, the third equation is removed. That equation was easily the most influential in jacking up the totals. Without it, the optimum solution is 149 Shuckles and 719 Chanseys, giving Attack Stat Exp. of 5085 (HEX 13DD). That reduces the value of int(((√ (V – 1) + 1) / 4) down to 18. With the third equation removed, EVERY other “(Stat) vs. Attack” ratio has either Shuckle or Chansey as most efficient, so this solution cannot be bettered.

So I’m looking to know how Special stats transfer Stat Exp.: through SA or SD? If it is through SA, there may be some additional research involved. A TI-83 can’t do 3-D graphs, so I’d need someone else’s help to test a three-variable system, adding Blissey. Does that improve the solution for “5a + 10b + 10c” at all?

In conclusion, you can legally do more than just a 1 Attack DV for reducing Attack. If you want the minimum that can be attained legally, right now I know you can reduce Attack’s Stat Exp. variables (DA37 and DA38) down at least as far as 19 F5 (for those of you who shark “only legal things,” I see nothing wrong with doing this). And if Special Stat Exp. is found to transfer from Special D, you can knock it down to 13 DD and shave off ANOTHER two points.

But I doubt anyone will pay much attention to this, so I just wasted 2 days on a pointless discovery...

*looks to see if Meowth has already posted something on this matter*


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Donald
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posted 11-28-2001 12:37 PM      Profile for Donald   Email Donald      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stat Experience for Special is calculated from Special Attack. So I wish you luck in your research.
From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 11-28-2001 04:45 PM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The problem is almost solved.

So if you're sharking Attack to the minimum legally possible, just set DA37 to 19 and DA38 to F5 at least for now). "cmsnrub25" gets a 5.

Now, the final piece: Does anyone care to test to see if adding Blissey to the mix will enable the Attack to go any lower (because of its higher Special-A-to-Attack ratio)? I don't have the tools to check a 3-D system of equations, but maybe someone else might--if anyone cares to try it, it's a 5-star rating to whoever figures it out!

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ]


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MK
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posted 11-28-2001 05:45 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jolt135, I can't promise anything, but maybe sometime later I can try to give it a shot and see what I can find...

P.S. I'm sure this is what you meant, but just so you know, the lowest DV you can have isn't one, it's zero.


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JohtoMaster
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posted 11-28-2001 06:04 PM      Profile for JohtoMaster   Author's Homepage   Email JohtoMaster   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But then you would not have Max HP, seeing as 0 is not an odd number.

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Oh, and it's not "newbies", it's "proles". Nothing wrong with being new to the game if you're not stuck in the working classes. Hey, if we're going to be elitist, may as well go the whole hog and refer to the idiots as a lower social rank... - CatGonk at SoaG

From: Valparaiso, IN, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
MK
is somewhat large.
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posted 11-28-2001 06:12 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahhh, I see...

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Folks if you're like me, you're legs are all scarred up and itchy with elf bites. Ya know, ya tried the bug sprays, you left small poisonous cupcakes out for em, you called every exterminator and wizard in the phone book! But despite your attempts you just can't get rid of these darn elves. Folks you aren't dealing with a cockroach or a rat here, you're dealing with a small irritable magical man armed to the teeth with a thousand deadly jigs & dance steps.


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oporaca
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posted 11-28-2001 07:48 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good work. I thought about this once, but I didn't bother. And, since I may be getting a GameShark soon (I definitely will if Nintendo has a tourney) and I prefer Special attacks to Physical, it becomes that much more valuable.
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Lark84
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posted 11-29-2001 01:05 PM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jolt, I have a 3D-graphing program for my Mac. It's pretty basic, though. You enter a formula in the form of z=xy, to draw a graph. (Yes, you can divide and multiply and square root and whatever with the x and y)

I'm not a 3D-graph expert, but if you could supply me with the expression necessary to draw the graph you want, then I'd be happy to help.

I personally find this interesting -using the graphing calculator and a math program for something *useful*. (school doesn't count :P)


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DrFuko
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posted 11-30-2001 12:53 AM      Profile for DrFuko   Email DrFuko   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow..... this research is what makes you guys the ultimate pokerofessionals. Want to be part of MY pharmacology research team down here in Mexico? Of course, you´d have to give up a pleasurable life in the states, start speaking spanish and get used to eating lots of tacos.

No?

Well, you still get a 5, Jolt.

And by the way, What´s so bad about injecting antibiotics directly into the veins of horses?

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Noone expects.... THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!


From: Monterrey, Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 11-30-2001 07:38 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lark84: The equations I would need fulfilled are:

250x + 20y + 255z ≥ 37402

5x + 230y + 10z ≥ 37402

35x + 5y + 75z ≥ 37402

105x + 230y + 140z ≥ 37402

50x + 10y + 55z ≥ 37402

with the object being the solution involving only integer values that gives the lowest possible value for 5x + 10y + 10z. x is obviously the number of Chanseys, y is Shuckles, and z is Blisseys. The current best solution, involving only Chansey and Shuckle, is 6645, but unless the new solution goes below 6242 (the breaking point between 19 and 20 in the Stat Exp. reverse equation), it will be of no additional value.

Solving these equations for z gives:

z ≥ (37402 – 250x – 20y) / 255

z ≥ (37402 – 5x – 230y) / 10

z ≥ (37402 – 35x – 5y) / 75

z ≥ (37402 – 105x – 230y) / 140

z ≥ (37402 – 50x – 10y) / 55

Hope these help.

*has already given you a 5 rating a while ago*


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 11-30-2001 11:51 PM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahh, Jolt135, I think you've made a typo...if you battle only 1041 Chanseys and 140 Shuckles, you'll still make it over the threshold of max stats in all areas but attack (only by a small margin of 3 on Defense), leaving you with an attack of 6605, but that isn't enough to drop it down a level...

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My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge

From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jolt135
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posted 12-01-2001 08:50 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think you need to re-read the first post. It says 1049 Chanseys, not 1041. That boosts up Attack SE by 8 * 5 = 40 points, which puts it at the 6645 I mentioned.
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Squeeeezie
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posted 12-01-2001 03:36 PM      Profile for Squeeeezie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
my level 100 blisseys and shuckles have attacks of 47. lowest genes with + no attack stat exp

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"coo-kee coo-kee"--Krabby

From: Martha's Vineyard | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 12-01-2001 05:20 PM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolt135:
I think you need to re-read the first post. It says 1049 Chanseys, not 1041. That boosts up Attack SE by 8 * 5 = 40 points, which puts it at the 6645 I mentioned.

I think you need to re-read my post, I'm saying you DON'T need to battle the extra 8 Chanseys, as with 1041, you would have already reached max effort value in all areas but attack, I'm saying you ONLY need 1041 Chanseys, which puts it at the 6605 I mentioned.

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My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge


From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lark84
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posted 12-02-2001 06:02 AM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolt135:
Lark84: The equations I would need fulfilled are:
(equations posted by Jolt135)

*tries to plug in first equation into graphing program*

*finds out program can't use the *-sign*

*replaces * with =*

*gets a nice, flat, tilted surface, exactly like the surface you get from z=x*

I'm sorry my program couldn't use the *-sign, but as I said, it's very basic (it comes included with system software, guess that says pretty much about the capabilities of it ). I'm not sure if my completely flat graph is of any use to you... You get the exact same result with z=x, or z=y. Sorry...

I have heard about a program for the TI 83+, which draws 3D-graphs like those on the 86. IIRC, it's included on the TI resource CD (which I unfortunately cannot use, it crashes my computer). It's a slow, memory eating program, but it gets the job done. Maybe that's a better option.


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Jolt135
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posted 12-02-2001 07:53 AM      Profile for Jolt135   Author's Homepage   Email Jolt135   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
EXTRA, EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT! LOOPHOLE IN THE FINDINGS!

Even with Special SE transferring from Special A, and even without Blissey, I just remembered a loophole that allows the solution to improve from 19F5.

Recall that in RBY, there was only one Special, and Chansey’s Base Stat there was still 105. However, in GSC, this gets shot all the way down to 35, making it take three times longer to max out Special Attack SE with Chansey.

Therefore, why use GSC for that? After taking down the Shuckles (don’t worry about Shuckle’s 230 Special D Base Stat getting erased and only the 5 remaining; the 230 never gets added to SE in the first place) the theoretical solution would have the Pokemon traded back to RBY so it can get 105 Special SE off Chansey instead of 35! When the requisite number of Chanseys are taken down, trading back to GSC keeps the 105-per-Chansey Special SE.

As far as the implications on the optimum solution, this makes Equation 3 much easier to fulfill. Because of this, fighting Blissey wouldn’t improve on anything (sorry, Lark84, for wasting your time). The best solution now is 149 Shuckles and 719 Chanseys, giving Attack SE of just 13DD (worth 18 stat points), which is exactly what it would be if Equation 3 had been removed altogether.

If anyone else finds a potential loophole in the research, post it here.

On a side note, I am now completely finished with Version 2 of my Pokemon utility spreadsheet, a combination Stat Finder/Damage Calculator/Team Weakness Finder that takes up just 169KB. It was set up on Works 6.0, but it should run on Excel. If you would like a copy, e-mail me.


From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged


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