The Azure Heights Forum


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Azure Heights Forum   » Main Campus   » Research Lab   » Bizarre idea based on interesting fact. Or: Vital Throw has an Actual Use

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Bizarre idea based on interesting fact. Or: Vital Throw has an Actual Use
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 08-15-2001 10:37 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We all know that Whirlwinders and Roarers are often used as Counter-Defense because they are more versatile than Psyche Up and Haze, which are purely Counter-Defense.

According to Metalloid Research, however:

quote:
Aside from failure due to Accuracy, there are two additional ways that this move can be made to fail.

1. If the opponent only has one pokemon remaining on their team.

2. If the move used by the opponent is also an “Attack last” move and the opposing pokemon is slower, therefore causing the other pokemon to go last, Roar will automatically fail. Roar must go last in order to work.

“Attack last” moves include: Counter, Mirror Coat, Roar, Vital Throw, and Whirlwind


This is a problem for Cursers. However, note the second failure condition.

Vital Throw can be used to make it fail.

Of course, this still requires a lower speed. What better to use than Curse?

So, basically, if you want to surprise your Roar/Whirlwind-happy friends, use a Curse/Vital Throw Machamp. I don't think this idea will catch on or actually be used by anyone because you can't Curse much before they bring out the Whirlwinder/Roarer, but it would be interesting.

Curse/Vital Throw/Quake/RSlide, I guess.

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
LanderZRPG
Got a whale of a tale to tell ya, lads!
Member # 1615

Member Rated:
posted 08-16-2001 12:07 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, GSBot screwed that theory up.

Since when does a Paralyzed Snorlax's Counter go before a Suicune's Roar?


But, yes, this could work very well, dealing damage, also. Until the Skarmory decides to Drill Peck, that is....

- - - - -
From what we've learned, it seems like you'd prefer girls dressed in ant costumes or something... -Kazuki (Regarding tl;dr)

Owner of the Power Advantage DBZ RPG
(www.poweradvantage.net)


From: High Prairie, AB, Canada | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 08-16-2001 12:31 AM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's sort of the problem with it, they start the counter-defense before you can finish the powering up. If you can get in enough Curses, though, Drill Peck shouldn't be too much of a problem. A few calculations:

3 Curses: Skarmory deals 27.4% damage max.
Machamp deals 53.2% damage min.

Okay, let's try something a little more realistic.

2 Curses (One the first turn after it comes out, the other the turn they switch to Skarmory): Skarmory deals 37.3% damage max.
Machamp deals 37.5% damage min.

Since Skarmory will most likely start with Whirlwind, Machamp will start the offensive tradeoff and ultimately win with a handful of HP (and 2 Curses) to spare.

Then again, there is the turn during your first Curse, and the chance that they'll switch out Skarmory early, in which case Machamp may receive sufficient damage to fall first. (Then again, there'll also be the chance that the opponent will be confused by Whirlwind's not working and keep on trying it.)

Any suggestions? Because this moveset was designed with today's metagame in mind, which I know virtually nothing of ^_^;;

P.S. I'm sorry for anyone offended at this post's title. I did not mean to imply that Vital Throw had no use before.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the calculations above were for no CH, but with Sharp Beak attached. I don't know what the standard has attached, although I guess it's more likely that it has Miracleberry, Leftovers, whatever.

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: oporaca ]

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
Member # 42

Member Rated:
posted 08-16-2001 03:00 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had considered a Machamp with Vital Throw and a Speed gene of 13 as a way to beat Countering Blisseys...

- - - - -
"Anybody gone into Whole Foods lately and see what they charge for arugula?"
-- Barack Obama, campaigning in Iowa

From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Master of Gligar
Orangutan Spouse
Member # 2114

Member Rated:
posted 08-19-2001 12:57 AM      Profile for Master of Gligar   Author's Homepage   Email Master of Gligar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lander, ROAR always goes second, no matter what.

- - - - -
You may know me as Gligar master...The legend lives on

From: FL | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 08-19-2001 01:10 AM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, actually, between exchange of the moves Roar, Whirlwind, Counter, Mirror Coat, and Vital Throw, the Pokemon with the higher speed goes first.

The attack priorities go like this:

1. Detect, Protect, Endure
2. Extremespeed
3. Quick Attack, Mach Punch
4. All attacks not listed
5. Counter, Whirlwind, Mirror Coat, Roar, Vital Throw, possibly Mirror Move

Within each "priority group," the Pokemon with the higher speed goes first. If their speeds are identical, the Pokemon to go first is chosen randomly.

Thus, the Counter (in the example above) should come AFTER the Roar. And thus, the Roar should fail.

Heh, I never thought about Countering Blisseys, that addition may be enough to make it actually useful in practice.

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
LanderZRPG
Got a whale of a tale to tell ya, lads!
Member # 1615

Member Rated:
posted 08-19-2001 09:29 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oporaca:

Thus, the Counter (in the example above) should come AFTER the Roar. And thus, the Roar should fail.


Well, the only place I can test this, GSBot, made it so if speed is too low or something, roar goes first. Either that, or they are both set to go last, and it's random in which goes last, as I've seen it work, and not work. Snorlax's counter SHOULD always go last, save if Suicune has no Speed, but it makes no sense that sometimes Snorlax goes last, sometimes Suicune....

Anyways, yeah, good research, although I saw JMan's thing a bit back.

- - - - -
From what we've learned, it seems like you'd prefer girls dressed in ant costumes or something... -Kazuki (Regarding tl;dr)

Owner of the Power Advantage DBZ RPG
(www.poweradvantage.net)


From: High Prairie, AB, Canada | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 08-19-2001 06:36 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, I got everything from Metalloid Research. My part was really in putting it all together, to make that obscure fact usable. They did the research, I did the application.

Looks like White Cat did the same thing, too, but we found different applications.

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
MK
is somewhat large.
Member # 1445

Member Rated:
posted 08-19-2001 08:48 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where is this metaloid research you are all talking about?

-MK


Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 08-19-2001 09:35 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/home1.html

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: oporaca ]

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
LanderZRPG
Got a whale of a tale to tell ya, lads!
Member # 1615

Member Rated:
posted 08-20-2001 09:22 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just heard something weird over GSBot about this.

This may pertain just to GSBot, or maybe to the game too, I'm not sure.

Apparently the FASTER pokemon gets first dibs, and will go second, while the slower pokemon goes first.

Sounds silly to me.

- - - - -
From what we've learned, it seems like you'd prefer girls dressed in ant costumes or something... -Kazuki (Regarding tl;dr)

Owner of the Power Advantage DBZ RPG
(www.poweradvantage.net)


From: High Prairie, AB, Canada | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
poccil
Farting Nudist
Member # 1457

posted 08-20-2001 01:58 PM      Profile for poccil   Author's Homepage   Email poccil   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oporaca:

The attack priorities go like this:

1. Detect, Protect, Endure
2. Extremespeed
3. Quick Attack, Mach Punch

4. All attacks not listed
5. Counter, Whirlwind, Mirror Coat, Roar, Vital Throw, possibly Mirror Move


Mirror Move is of the category "all attacks not listed." Extremespeed, Quick Attack, and Mach Punch are of the same priority level.

- - - - -
The Ultimate Pokemon Center | Gold/Silver Lab
"I believe that poccil is an intelligent, respected member of the online Pokemon community." -sarcastic comment by White Cat


Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 08-20-2001 02:06 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Someone's done a study before on Azure Heights, I've seen it, and Extremespeed apparently has priority over both.
http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/buzz/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000841

Guess the post changed since I last saw it... now things are getting confusing.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: oporaca ]

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
MK
is somewhat large.
Member # 1445

Member Rated:
posted 08-20-2001 07:38 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He said possibly because Mirror Move could Mirror move one of the following attacks...

Detect, Protect, Endure
Extremespeed
Quick Attack, Mach Punch
Counter, Whirlwind, Mirror Coat, Roar, Vital Throw

So, if a Pidgeot Mirror Moved an extreme speed would it automatically get to go first (under normal conditions and if the opponent didn't Extreme Speed again?)

-MK

P.S. Metronome should be in there too, it can go first if it got quick attack right?


Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
Member # 42

Member Rated:
posted 08-21-2001 04:12 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to the other thread, if both Pokemon use a goes-first move at the same time, then the one to go first is random. The game doesn't check to see which one has higher Speed, as was originally assumed.

- - - - -
"Anybody gone into Whole Foods lately and see what they charge for arugula?"
-- Barack Obama, campaigning in Iowa

From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Manuel Calavera
Sock Lover
Member # 1202

Member Rated:
posted 08-21-2001 03:04 PM      Profile for Manuel Calavera     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Glee... someone's taking notice of me. I think Mirror Move copies the last move used by the opponent, but doesn't go last. Read on...
-----
SPEAROW used MIRROR MOVE!
But it failed!
DIGLETT used EARTHQUAKE!
It doesn't affect SPEAROW!
-----
SPEAROW used MIRROR MOVE!
SPEAROW used EARTHQUAKE!
JACK laughed his arse off!
JACK fainted!
-----

Like dat, y'all?

- - - - -
Gates is the Saddam Hussein of the consumer technology world. ~ Mr.K


From: Newcastle, Home of Geordies, Brown Ale and The Wildhearts | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 09-02-2001 12:55 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was recently doing some tests on PokeSta 2 Free Battle. My results:

Arcanine (Speed 230) using Extremespeed vs. Raichu (Speed 254) using Quick Attack:

First battle: Raichu went first, 3 out of 3 times.
Second battle: Raichu, 3 out of 3.
Third battle: Raichu, 3 out of 3.

Arcanine (Speed 230) using Extremespeed vs. Umbreon (Speed 176) using Quick Attack:

First Battle: Arcanine went first, 5 out of 5 times.
Second Battle: Arcanine, 5 out of 5.

Then again, I guess you don't care about PokeSta 2, because you're all a bunch of GSBot junkies.

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.


Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Continue
Farting Nudist
Member # 31

Member Rated:
posted 09-04-2001 01:51 PM      Profile for Continue   Email Continue   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oporaca:
Then again, I guess you don't care about PokeSta 2, because you're all a bunch of GSBot junkies.

There may be a few people who have posted some dumb things (like testing things on the GSBot and proclaiming that's how it works), but that's not everyone here.

Some people just don't have the time to test everything and trust that what someone else says they saw is accurate.

Others just don't have the time to put the information up in permanent form (like I did for Vital Throw, the start of this particular topic) or just didn't stop being lazy enough to get around to responding to this thread (more of this latter one for me, I'm afraid).

The (unnecessarily long-winded) point is that not everyone in the thread deserved that quoted portion.

And while I'm on a moralizing soapbox...

quote:
Originally posted by MK:
Where is this metaloid research you are all talking about?


In one of the other threads in here awhile ago you gave someone the URL for MR's Substitute page. What happened between then and when you posted this?


From: Boca Raton, FL | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
Farting Nudist
Member # 1234

Member Rated:
posted 09-04-2001 03:39 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Continue:
In one of the other threads in here awhile ago you gave someone the URL for MR's Substitute page. What happened between then and when you posted this?

Remember, Continue, this is MK we're talking about here...


From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
oporaca
Farting Nudist
Member # 922

Member Rated:
posted 09-04-2001 10:35 PM      Profile for oporaca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, sorry, you're right, I was making a generalization, but at times (many times), it seems that way. (I didn't even think that I had said "all" in that comment.) People build teams specially for GSBot way too often, IMO. (Like using HP on legendaries, or assuming max stats, or abusing glitches.)

- - - - -
I'm a closet Pokémon fan -- all evidence I like Pokémon is locked away in my closet.

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
Farting Nudist
Member # 1234

Member Rated:
posted 09-05-2001 04:32 AM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the most part, I think Continue was more referring to the fact that many people judge the mechanics of the GB/N64 Pokémon games by what they see on GSbot, or what they see on teams designed for use with GSbot, and he was simply cautioning against the possible (probable) pitfalls associated with that.
From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Continue
Farting Nudist
Member # 31

Member Rated:
posted 09-05-2001 10:18 AM      Profile for Continue   Email Continue   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Automaton:
For the most part, I think Continue was more referring to the fact that many people judge the mechanics of the GB/N64 Pokémon games by what they see on GSbot, or what they see on teams designed for use with GSbot, and he was simply cautioning against the possible (probable) pitfalls associated with that.

Er, yeah, I'll say that I was that forward-looking and visionary.

Honestly, while the first sentence has that, it's just what came out when I was trying to get to my point. However, yes, both you and oporaca are right. The GSBot is not a substitute for the actual games when exploring the intricacies of their behavior.


From: Boca Raton, FL | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Manuel Calavera
Sock Lover
Member # 1202

Member Rated:
posted 09-07-2001 01:29 PM      Profile for Manuel Calavera     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Continue:
The GSBot is not a substitute for the actual games when exploring the intricacies of their behavior.

I know. Everybody knows that. It's like a mina bird. It only copies reality, and doesn't know what it's copying, so it screws up. I think.

- - - - -
Gates is the Saddam Hussein of the consumer technology world. ~ Mr.K


From: Newcastle, Home of Geordies, Brown Ale and The Wildhearts | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mewone
I have a pokemon as my username. I mean, come on.
Member # 1694

Member Rated:
posted 09-22-2001 12:21 AM      Profile for Mewone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Then it pokes itself in the eye. O_x
From: Azure Heights | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Manuel Calavera
Sock Lover
Member # 1202

Member Rated:
posted 09-24-2001 04:25 PM      Profile for Manuel Calavera     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mewone:
Then it pokes itself in the eye. O_x

I wouldn't know, because I only got it from Red Dwarf, from the Polymorph episode.

- - - - -
Gates is the Saddam Hussein of the consumer technology world. ~ Mr.K


From: Newcastle, Home of Geordies, Brown Ale and The Wildhearts | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged


All times are ET (US)  
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

© 2000-2016, Maximum Penetration Industries.

Karpe Diem


The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author(s). The contents and links have not been reviewed or approved by the University of Miami.