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Author Topic: What exactly is the interaction between defense curl and rollout?
waruimewtwo
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posted 12-30-2000 01:42 PM      Profile for waruimewtwo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I know this sounds stupid, but I'm not sure exactly how it works. After Defense Curl powers up rollout, does it start increasing more after more rollouts?

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Automaton
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posted 12-30-2000 03:33 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Defense Curl doubles the first hit of Rollout when used immediately afterwards. And logically speaking, if you double the first hit, you double the whole chain;

No defense curl;
No STAB/STAB
30/45
60/90
120/180
240/360
480/720

Defense Curl;
No STAB/STAB
60/90
120/180
240/360
480/720
960/1440, (999 capped)

So what this means is, Golem is actually a better candidate for DC/Roll than Rhydon, because of Rhydon's inability to learn Defense Curl.

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[This message has been edited by Automaton (edited 12-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Automaton (edited 12-30-2000).]


From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
waruimewtwo
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posted 12-30-2000 06:01 PM      Profile for waruimewtwo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
interesting, thanks a lot Automaton/phildo.

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Teddiursa
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posted 12-30-2000 07:12 PM      Profile for Teddiursa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What's this!!! I didn't know there was any effect from using Defense Curl before Rollout. Rollout is already pretty lethal (my Miltank just went through Koga's team with two attacks). Doubling the effect seems like overkill. Where is that effect mentioned? I'm suddenly worried I may have missed more important stuff.

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From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Mad DoctorX
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posted 12-30-2000 07:32 PM      Profile for The Mad DoctorX   Email The Mad DoctorX   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Deos Furry Cutter get Capped to 999 to?

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From: Dublin, Ohio | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 12-30-2000 08:43 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by waruimewtwo:
interesting, thanks a lot Automaton/phildo.


Well, you're very welcome, waruimewtwo/waruimewtwo!

Also, I was wondering if it's possible to get Lock On/Mindreader onto a Fast pokemon that can learn Rollout. That would potentially be very lethal.

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From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 12-30-2000 08:49 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Mad DoctorX:
Deos Furry Cutter get Capped to 999 to?


Fury Cutter caps off at 160. You're just gonna have to trust me at this one. The reason for this is that Rollout is five hits with increasing power. Since Fury Cutter can go continuously, (Hell, it's Japanese name is Continuous Cut) to have it go any higher than 160 would unbalance the game to such a horrible level. It would make Bugs into the best type, like Psychics were in the Chromatic cycle. Thus completely undermining the prerelease playtesting process.

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From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 01-02-2001 01:33 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know all the details of these moves either, but I've done some more testing and here is what I found:

I was wrong before about Rollout decreasing in accuracy for each subsequent hit. The accuracy remains the same at 90%. Sorry about that hehe.

Defense Curl can be used *anytime* before any Rollout and it will still double the attack power of all your Rollouts. So you could Defense Curl, then Double Team or something, then Rollout and still get the bonus. And after your Rollout ends if they are still alive I think if you Rollout again you still get the 2x damage bonus from your very old Defense Curl.

Defense Curling twice doesn't do anything more than one Defense Curl.

You lose complete control of your pokemon will Rollouting. For Fury Cutter you don't, and need to reselect the move every turn. Question: does interrupting your Fury Cutter hits with other moves reset the damage back to 10?

I could be wrong about these things, so please check if you care.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 01-02-2001 01:45 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fury Cutter does reset if you use a move between. It happened to my Scizor all the time.

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From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
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posted 01-08-2001 09:10 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Automaton:
Fury Cutter caps off at 160. You're just gonna have to trust me at this one. The reason for this is that Rollout is five hits with increasing power. Since Fury Cutter can go continuously, (Hell, it's Japanese name is Continuous Cut) to have it go any higher than 160 would unbalance the game to such a horrible level. It would make Bugs into the best type, like Psychics were in the Chromatic cycle.

I'd agree with you... if there was a bug that could last more than five turns anyway. Going higher would also make a nice balance to the fact that it starts at a power of 15, and doesn't even get any Defense Curl-esque bonus. (Not too far though - continuous max-strength attacks would quickly devastate any opponent who was stupid enough to let you power up.)

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From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
1970Beetle
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posted 01-08-2001 09:23 PM      Profile for 1970Beetle   Author's Homepage   Email 1970Beetle   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Automaton:
Also, I was wondering if it's possible to get Lock On/Mindreader onto a Fast pokemon that can learn Rollout. That would potentially be very lethal.

Now that would be cool. I'm gonna look into that tomorrow morning.

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From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 01-08-2001 10:06 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 1970Beetle:
Now that would be cool. I'm gonna look into that tomorrow morning.


I did some checking, and it would appear that one of the only (if not THE only) Pokemon that can do that Lock-On/Rollout thing is Magneton, and it would appear that you'd have to BP some agility to him to get him fast enough, or Prz the entire opposing team, (Another theme that 'Ton fits well in... ). CatGonk seems to think that the combo would only work on the first hit, however what s/he is forgetting that all five possible (very possible if my hunch is correct about Rollout) hits all expend only a single PP. Theoretically;

Rollout's Hit% by itself;

90%
81%
72.9%
65.6%
59%

The hit rate doesn't actually lower, it's just that that's the percentile chance of amassing that many hits, and to anyone else that's actually fired this move up, knows that this is more than correct.

Rollout's Hit% with Lock-On;

99%
98%
97%
96%
95%

Again, that's just the chance of all five hits connecting. I'd take a 95% chance of landing a 480 base move any day of the week compared to a 59% chance. And, I could raise his Atk, and make him a badass sweeper. Plus he can't be poisoned, and his defensive capabilities have improved dramatically due to his Steel type. And if he's faster than everything else... Then he can seriously take out entire teams. And how painful would it be to have a giant steel mass of electrified screws and magnets roll over you?


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[This message has been edited by Automaton (edited 01-08-2001).]


From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 01-08-2001 10:15 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rolken:
I'd agree with you... if there was a bug that could last more than five turns anyway.


Think for a second... Which Bug Pokemon is solely responsible for Fire Blast on many Pokemon that should never have it?


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"Well, Hiro, time to probe the bush. Let's get this party started."-Ronfar, Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete

[This message has been edited by Automaton (edited 01-08-2001).]


From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr.E
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posted 01-08-2001 11:15 PM      Profile for Mr.E     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whoever thinks you're gonna last long enough to repeatedly Rollout is insane anyway.

Decent Speed Pokémon with Defense Curl and Rollout? Smeargle.

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From: Munchkin Land, Oz | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 01-08-2001 11:47 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.E:
Whoever thinks you're gonna last long enough to repeatedly Rollout is insane anyway.

Decent Speed Pokémon with Defense Curl and Rollout? Smeargle.


Would you care to ellaborate? I was talking about using this pokemon as part of a mass paralyzing platform, with enhanced Atk, and Lock-On, not Defense Curl. At which point, he's going faster than your opponent's entire team, preferably with 200% of his normal Atk, and Rolling for the max number of hits, always, because of Lock-On, which he could easily use without incedent. If you could describe to me an actual situation, using example of common pokemon and strategies, with decision making skills that would actually make sense other than something like "Ho-oh used Sacred Fire! Critical Hit!!! XD" or something of that order.

Feh, "GOLDEN GOD" indeed...

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From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Charmeleon42
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posted 01-09-2001 01:41 AM      Profile for Charmeleon42   Author's Homepage   Email Charmeleon42   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...Can you say.... SNORLAX?

Snorlax (Rollage of Justice)(c)
-----------------------------
Rollout
Defence Curl
Rest
Sleep Talk
-Beserk Gene-

Can you say boo yah. After the first Defense Curl, both it's defence stats are el high, and it has awesome HP. If it can stay focused through D-Curl and Rollout, and no be confused, you can lay the beat down. I would imagine you wouldn't have to try for confusion every turn of Rollout, so once its going, it aint gonna stop.

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From: Mountain Dew Land | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr.E
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posted 01-09-2001 06:46 AM      Profile for Mr.E     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But can you find anything FASt that can learn Lock-On/Rollout that would last more than 1 turn in combat in the first place? And how would you get the time to FULLY Rollout without getting your ass kicked by some Machamp, Marowak, Steelix, anything will fairly good Defense + a recovery move or somebody else resistant, especially those 3. (Marowak has Thick Club,'nuff said. Steelix has a near 500 Defense and a double resistance. Machamp is self-explanatory.) Oh, and Magneton, though not the best for the job (if anybody else besides Smeargle could fullfil your requirement,) you still mentioned it in your post. And it's completely dead to those 3 mentioned above. Oh, and let's not forget Protect/Detect. Ain't a common move used in battle, but it'll still stop you dead in your tracks. Same with confusion, and possibly even paralysis. And who in the hell would bring in Ho-oh against somebody using Rollout? Besides, you're a lot more likely to Burn than critical anyway, which would also screw you over. (Not that switching Ho-oh in against a Rollout user is recommended, mind you.)


Can you say boo yah.

Can you say Machamp?

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From: Munchkin Land, Oz | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Charmeleon42
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posted 01-09-2001 03:24 PM      Profile for Charmeleon42   Author's Homepage   Email Charmeleon42   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If people use Machamp. Not everyone is going to. I dont have one in my team 'cause there aint any room for one.

My Anti-Normal is a Gengar with Mean Look/Curse. See ya, Snoringlax...

[This message has been edited by Charmeleon42 (edited 01-09-2001).]


From: Mountain Dew Land | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr.E
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posted 01-09-2001 05:23 PM      Profile for Mr.E     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I mentioned Machamp because it would still completely screw you...not to mention it's on of the most common Pokémon in the game.

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From: Munchkin Land, Oz | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 01-09-2001 11:56 PM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rollout
Defence Curl
Rest
Sleep Talk <-----------------------
-Beserk Gene-

That's bad. With only one damaging attack, Sleep Talk is virtually worthless. Use Snore instead. And I'd take Curse over Defense Curl, since you can boost your power twice as high, and it affects all your attacks, not just Rollout.

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From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Charmeleon42
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posted 01-10-2001 07:09 PM      Profile for Charmeleon42   Author's Homepage   Email Charmeleon42   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But then it would take 2 turns to power up, rather than one.

Sleep Talk is there so it continue to lay down massive amounts of damage, while still asleep with Rollout. You cant argue that with Snorlax's high attack + Beserk Gene + a 2x damage bonus wont deal a LOT of damage. If I can restore my HP, and keep Rolling out at the same time, it's good. Very good.

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From: Mountain Dew Land | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Automaton
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posted 01-10-2001 11:27 PM      Profile for Automaton   Author's Homepage   Email Automaton   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Charmeleon42:
But then it would take 2 turns to power up, rather than one.

Sleep Talk is there so it continue to lay down massive amounts of damage, while still asleep with Rollout. You cant argue that with Snorlax's high attack + Beserk Gene + a 2x damage bonus wont deal a LOT of damage. If I can restore my HP, and keep Rolling out at the same time, it's good. Very good.



Because you're confused the entire time when using this moveset, you have a 50% chance of actually hitting yourself out of the Roll. I've done it, literally. Not only that, but you have a Snorlax, sleeping soundly like a widdle bebe, with 636 Atk, hitting himself, with not much Def, even with Curl. Besides, If a normal unconfused Rollout has a hit rate of 90%, then for all thoughts and purposes, confused it has a 45% hit rate. So;

45%
20%
9%
4%
2%

You have a 2% chance, (Technically 1.8%) of landing all five hits. So basically, Rollout+Berserk Gene=Tackle with a 45% hit rate..

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"Well, Hiro, time to probe the bush. Let's get this party started."-Ronfar, Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete


From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
spunman
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posted 04-01-2001 10:17 PM      Profile for spunman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Porcupine: I was wrong before about Rollout decreasing in accuracy for each subsequent hit. The accuracy remains the same at 90%. Sorry about that hehe.

Defense Curl can be used *anytime* before any Rollout and it will still double the attack power of all your Rollouts. So you could Defense Curl, then Double Team or something, then Rollout and still get the bonus. And after your Rollout ends if they are still alive I think if you Rollout again you still get the 2x damage bonus from your very old Defense Curl.

Defense Curling twice doesn't do anything more than one Defense Curl.

You lose complete control of your pokemon will Rollouting.

aargh! well, if i look on the brighter side of this little situation, if i had known all of this BEFORE i tested it i STILL would have tested it. i'm like that.

so i've tested it. this is what i got. and here it is, plain as day, from over two months ago...

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From: the middle | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
MegaScythe
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posted 04-02-2001 04:33 AM      Profile for MegaScythe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just a thought, if in fact you can use Rollout and then another move besides Rollout and it will still give Double Damage, would it be possible to Bp a Defense curl to a Pokemon w/ Rollout and it get the double damage bonus? again,just a thought. Im testing it a bit tonight..er.this morning.

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From: ATL | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
MegaScythe
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posted 04-02-2001 05:59 AM      Profile for MegaScythe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, thats right, its my spring break.All the testing time in the world. I just got done, and the double damage does get passed through a Bped DefenseCurl. I just found that interesting. Im going to bed...

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"I am happy, im feelin glad. I've got sunshine, in a bag.Im useless, but not for the long, the future is comin on."-Gorillaz, "Clint Eastwood"


From: ATL | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Charlie
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posted 04-02-2001 09:31 PM      Profile for Charlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Automaton:
You have a 2% chance, (Technically 1.8%) of landing all five hits. So basically, Rollout+Berserk Gene=Tackle with a 45% hit rate..


[/B]


Doesnt the game discard the decimal (Making it a 1% chance)? Or is that just for chromatics?

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White Cat
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posted 04-03-2001 08:28 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Doesnt the game discard the decimal (Making it a 1% chance)? Or is that just for chromatics?

No, because the game doesn't deal with those percentages at all. We write it as 1.8%, but the GameBoy sees it as ((229/256) / 2)^5 .

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