here's what i'm working off of so far:

GIVEN #1
i'm currently working under the assumption that the following information, found on Meowth346's Pokemon Forever Breeding page, is correct.

Egg's Individual Value A = ( X and F0 ) + (parents's Individual Value A and 0F )

Egg's Individual Value B = ( Y and F8 ) + (parents's Individual Value B and 07 )

Attack and Defense are Individual Value A, and Speed and Defense <i'm assuming Meowth meant Speed and Special here?> are Individual Value B. X and Y are random values.

From in between each ( and ), the lower number of the two is chosen. The chosen numbers are added together, and that becomes the baby's Individual Values.

GIVEN #2
every time any pokemon is bred with a ditto, the DVs for the above equations (GIVEN #1) are supplied by ditto.

FACT
the ditto i have caught for breeding purposes has the following DVs:
Attack/Defense/Special/Speed
F/D/F/9

the male mareep i am breeding with ditto has the following DVs:
A/6/D/6

THUS
Egg's Individual Value A = ( X and F0 ) + (FD and 0F ) = ( X and F0 ) + 0F

Egg's Individual Value B = ( Y and F8 ) + (9F and 07 ) = ( Y and F8 ) + 07

RESULTS
HP/Attack/Defense/Special/Speed

mareep (f) 13/5/13/15/8
mareep-b (m) 13/9/13/15/12
mareep-c (m) 7/12/13/15/7
mareep-d (f) 7/2/13/15/9
mareep-e (m) 7/12/13/15/11
mareep-f (f) 13/3/13/7/0
mareep-g (f) 13/1/13/15/2

as we can see here from the offspring, my defense has always been 13, and my special has been 15 all times except once when it was 7.

my friend, using the same ditto (duped) and breeding eevees, always received 13 for defense and 15 or 7 for special over the course of 5 offspring.

notice that my HP DVs also seem to follow a 13 or 7 trend.
<edit> this may be coincidence, given how HP DVs are derived, but i figure it couldn't hurt to make note of it. </edit>

QUESTIONS
1) are my GIVEN statements true? if not, what's wrong?

2) are my THUS equations true? if not, what's wrong?

3) how *exactly* does the game determine which of the ( and ) pairs are higher? does it add the two paired values and compare? is it a direct comparison of, say, X1 and F and X2 and 0, for example in the ( X and F0 ) pairing.

4) assuming that the given equations are true, how can defense and special be consistently the same values? they're not paired DVs according to the equation. if, say, attack and defense were consistently the same, or special and speed, then it would make sense to me, but why defense and special?

5) assuming my THUS equations are true, what are the percentage (or how can i find the percentage) chances of the following:
a) X being greater than F0
b) Y being greater than F8
c) X being greater than F0 *and*
Y being greater than F8

as you can see, there's something i'm missing/not understanding about breeding stats.

any and all help is greatly appreciated.

thanks a lot for your time!

-Cuban B

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"Yo, I'm Cuban, B!"
"Yes! Cuban B!"
-Scarface & Samson

quote:

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Originally posted by Guld_YF21:
Hmmm... I think this should be posted in the research lab.

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ah! thanks for the redirect! sorry for the bother. =)

not quite sure why i didn't put this here in the first place. o_O?? ^_^;

anyways, can anyone in here help with this breeding issue? again, any and all help is appreciated. i really wanna figure this puppy out.

thanks a bunch!

-Cuban B

I'd heard that the stats of the baby are determined by the mother, so I'll assume that here. It might be wrong.

To put it simply, this means to get the best baby, you must use a mother with genetically perfect Defense, and a Special DV stat of either 7 or 15 (doesn't matter). Her other stats don't matter.

The baby's Defense will always be the same as his mothers. The baby's Attack and Speed are completely randomly determined. His gender is randomly determined as well since gender is based on Attack. If the baby's Speed turned out to be above average (DV 8 or higher) his Special will automatially be 15. If the baby's Speed turned out below average...his Special will end up at 7.

So, I guess the chances of having a perfect baby are 1 in 256 with the right kind of mother (or a Ditto). The mother should be easy to obtain in most cases...as she only needs 15 Defense and 7 or 15 Special.

Too bad I'm guessing it takes too long to create and hatch eggs to use this to have an easier time getting genetially perfect Pokemon without cheating with Gameshark.

thanks a bunch! =) i'm about to post a follow-up with a concise, step-by-step look a breeding so that we can have one easily accessable (meaning searchable) right here on azure. =)

thanks again! =)

-Cuban B

quote:

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Originally posted by Porcupine:
Wow, thanks for the info Cuban! I think I understood that...lemme try to summarize in a less technical way.

I'd heard that the stats of the baby are determined by the mother, so I'll assume that here. It might be wrong.

To put it simply, this means to get the best baby, you must use a mother with genetically perfect Defense, and a Special DV stat of either 7 or 15 (doesn't matter). Her other stats don't matter.

The baby's Defense will always be the same as his mothers. The baby's Attack and Speed are completely randomly determined. His gender is randomly determined as well since gender is based on Attack. If the baby's Speed turned out to be above average (DV 8 or higher) his Special will automatially be 15. If the baby's Speed turned out below average...his Special will end up at 7.

So, I guess the chances of having a perfect baby are 1 in 256 with the right kind of mother (or a Ditto). The mother should be easy to obtain in most cases...as she only needs 15 Defense and 7 or 15 Special.

Too bad I'm guessing it takes too long to create and hatch eggs to use this to have an easier time getting genetially perfect Pokemon without cheating with Gameshark.

---

Oops, I think I made a small mistake in my explanation though. The baby's Special will either be 7 or 15, and it will be randomly determined which one it is. It has nothing to do with what th baby's Speed ends up being. So I guess the chances of a perfect baby would be 1 in 512.

Maybe I made a mistake again who knows ohwell hehe.

as understood by Cuban B.

first, a quick recap:

1) DETERMINING A CHILD'S SPECIES

the child's species will always be the species of the Mother.

if a pokemon is bred with a Ditto, the child is always the species of the other (non-Ditto) parent.

Ex1. Pikachu (M) + Mareep (F) = Mareep
Ex2. Pikachu (F) + Mareep (M) = Pikachu
(or maybe a Pichu
Ex3. Tauros (M) + Ditto = Tauros
Ex4. Porygon + Ditto = Porygon

2) DETERMINING A CHILD'S GENDER

gender is based on Attack DV and species Gender Ratios.

the Attack DV of a child is always completely randomly determined. due to this fact, there is no way to determine a child's gender (aside from the obvious, meaning Tauros, Miltank, Electrode and the like).

a complete breakdown of species Gender Ratios can be found someone on Azure.
If you search, it will come.

3) QUICK & DIRTY UNDERSTANDING OF DV HEX

DVs range from 0-15. hex uses 1 bit.
thus, DVs 10-15 are understood as A-F.

now, onto the heavy stuff.

4) DETERMINING A CHILD'S DVs

ok, here comes the long part.

there is a breeding equation:

Egg's DV A = ( X and F0 ) + (parent's DV A and 0F )

Egg's DV B = ( Y and F8 ) + (parent's DV B and 07 )

Attack and Defense are DV A.
Speed and Special are DV B.

parent's DV values that fill in the equation are chosen as follows:

If Male + Female = Male, then the Mother's DVs are used in the equation.

If Male + Female = Female, then the Father's DVs are used in the equation.

If (Male or Female or Genderless) + Ditto, then Ditto's DVs are used in the equation.

X and Y are random values. X and Y are not single values, just like DV A and DV B. they can also be understood as X1X2 and Y1Y2. these are random DVs placed into the equation for comparison purposes.
X1 = randomly determined Attack DV
X2 = randomly determined Defense DV
Y1 = randomly determined Speed DV
Y2 = randomly determined Special DV

From in between each ( and ) construction, the lower number of the two is chosen. The chosen numbers are added together, and that becomes the baby's DVs.

comparisons are done directly. for example:

( X and F0 ) = ( X1X2 and F0 )
X1 is compared with F and X2 is compared with 0.

let's take a look at what the equation will look like in practice.

i have a mareep and a ditto i wish to breed.
the ditto i have caught for breeding has the following DVs:
Attack/Defense/Speed/Special
5/F/9/F

for breeding purposes, ideally you would like the parent DV donor (i always use ditto when i breed for stats; allows me more control) to have max DV (F) in Defense and a Special DV of 7 or higher. Attack and Speed are irrelevant. we'll get into why later.

with Ditto supplying his DVs to the Breeding equation, we come up with this:

Egg's DV A = ( X and F0 ) + ( 5F and 0F ) = ( X and F0 ) + 0F

Egg's DV B = ( Y and F8 ) + ( 9F and 07 ) = ( Y and F8 ) + 07

[EXPLANATION]
( 5F and 0F )
5 compares with 0. 0 is lower. equation chooses 0.
F compares with F. they are the same. F is chosen.

( 9F and 07 )
9 compares with 0. 0 is lower. 0 is chosen.
F compares with 7. 7 is lower. 7 is chosen.
[/EXPLANATION]

X and Y are randomly generated and thus cannot be predicted. for example, let's say X is 7C and Y is E9. then we have:

Egg's DV A = ( 7C and F0 ) + ( 5F and 0F ) = 70 + 0F = 7F

Egg's DV B = ( E9 and F8 ) + ( 9F and 07 ) = E8 + 07 = EF

[EXPLANATION]
70 + 0F
7 + 0 = 7
0 + F = F

E8 + 07
E + 0 = E
8 + 7 = F (aka 15)
[/EXPLANATION]

therefore, the baby's DVs are:
Attack/Defense/Speed/Special
7/F/E/F

END OF PART 1
PART 2 TO FOLLOW IMMEDIATELY

always random. why? let's see, using our friend ditto and the random numbers we assigned:

Egg's DV A = ( 7C and F0 ) + ( 5F and 0F ) = 70 + 0F = 7F

Egg's DV B = ( E9 and F8 ) + ( 9F and 07 ) = E8 + 07 = EF

hmm. well, here, 5 and 9 are ditto's Attack and Speed DVs, respectively. well, they are always compared with 0. 0 will always be the lowest (or equal) value, no matter what stats Ditto provides to compare with, so 0 will always be chosen.

the random Attack and Speed DVs, here 7 and E respectively, are always compared with F.
meaning that no matter what the random value is, it will always be chosen because it will always be less than or equal to F.

thus, following the equation, since the random Attack and Speed DVs will always end up being added to 0, the random DVs will always be chosen for the child.

meaning getting good Attack and Speed DVs is just like catching in the wild, random, 1/16 chance of getting max.

CHILD'S DEFENSE DV

is always equal to the parent DV donor's Defense DV. 100%. why? same equation:

Egg's DV A = ( 7C and F0 ) + ( 5F and 0F ) = 70 + 0F = 7F

Egg's DV B = ( E9 and F8 ) + ( 9F and 07 ) = E8 + 07 = EF

the randomly chosen Defense DV (here C) is always compared with 0. thus, 0 will always be chosen (the random DV is always greater than or equal to 0.)

the supplied Defense DV from the parent (here F) is always compared with F. thus, the supplied DV will always be chosen (it's always less than or equal to F.)

and again, when u add 0 to the supplied parent's Defense DV, u get the supplied parent's Defense DV as the child's Defense DV.

CHILD'S SPECIAL DV

this is a little more difficult, but not by much. the reason we want the parent donor to have a Special DV of 7-15 is because the parent's Special DV is always compared with 7. we want the 7 to be chosen 100% of the time so we can better ensure certain results.

if the 7 is always chosen, there is a 50% chance that the randomly generated Special DV will be 8-15. this will then lead to the choosing of 8. 8+7=15 (F), which is good.

should the randomly chosen Special DV be 0-7, then the child's Special DV should range from 7-14. i emphasize *should*. every time i have bred i have come out with a Special DV of either 15 or 7. this means i'm either always pulling a 0 for the randomly generated DV anytime i'm under 8, or the equation is simply giving me the base 7 by default anytime the randomly generated DV is under 8.

either way is fine by me really, which is why i haven't looked into this particular feature too much more. i still end up with a 50% chance to pull a 15 for Special, so i'm happy.

CHILD'S HP DV

is determined normally based upon it having odd or even Att/Def/Spec/Spd DVs. again, this can partially manipulated since we know that we can get the Defense DV we want 100% of the time and the Special DV we want 50% of the time.

OVERALL CONCLUSION

yes, u can shark DVs. i refuse to shark, as do others. some can't shark for whatever reason.

given that, breeding may be the best alternative since it gives us some amount of control over the DVs we get and the odds are much better than catching in the wild.

something around 1/256 pokemon should be maxed out. something like that. maybe 1/512. it's late and i have work tomorrow.

and let me say, lastly, that i have done nothing extraordinary here. i simply processed and understood information that was already before me and posted my findings here on Azure since it seemed like it needed a concise Breeding Stats report.

i tried to find one here and couldn't. i thought there might be others like me out there, so i give them this.

END OF PART 2 OF 3
PART 3 TO FOLLOW

Porcupine
for sparking some kind of neuropathway in my brain to push me past my limited sight. good thing you were being observant where i wasn't. thanks Porcupine!

Leprecaun (from Pokemon Daily)
for helping me with Breeding tests and pimping out his Eevees for a noble cause.
thanks Lep!

thanks to anyone who's read this far. i hope this is helpful. =)

and by the by, standard disclaimer, i could be wrong. if u see anything in here that just doesn't add up, or you find conflicting results in your own breeding, don't hesitate to bring it up. we only learn by questioning, doubting and striving forward.

-Cuban B

the odds of me finding the pokemon with the DVs i desire in the wild are pretty darn high, i forget the actual numbers right now.

the odds are significantly better through breeding.

so what it comes down to, i suppose, is time. the amount of time spent in the wild catching, compared to the amount of time breeding.

well, using a Ditto from my Red game brought over to my Silver game soley for breeding purposes really speeds things up for me. plus, after pumping him full of vitamins, he seemed much more pliable for breeding.

i can generally acquire 5 eggs (as many as i can hold in my party without returning to a poke center) in about 10 minutes, give or take (they seem to produce in spurts for me).

i can pick up a 2nd egg before my first one hatches. and so on, and so on. so i'm always doubling over walking time for multiple eggs to save time.

so in general, i'd say something like 30-45 min for anywhere from 10-15 offspring, has been my experience.

but then, i could just be lucky.

overall, it's up to personal preference. i prefer the control i have in breeding over just catching wild. it just seems faster to me in the long run. =) most of the time i'm tossing the majority of the wild pokemon i catch, if not all of them. that's a lot of pokeballs. honestly, if i'm not looking for max statters, i can mostly breed a pokemon with respectable stats in one batch.

plus, if i'm using a pokemon that i need moves bred onto, then i have to breed with ditto for stats. it's the only way for me to get the stats and the move. =)

anyway, again, it's personal preference i suppose. if you haven't tried it yet, give it a shot. maybe you'll like it. =) if not, well, there's always the tried and true method. =)

-Cuban B

quote:

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Originally posted by Porcupine:
Cuban, so you think breeding babies for stats is quicker than catching lots of pokemon in the wild? Even though the odds are better, doesn't it take a LONG time to raise and hatch each egg? And if it's wrong you need to throw it away (or load your gave again) and start all over again. How quickly can you create and hatch two eggs in a row, for example? Walking around in the wild you might be able to capture the pokemon you want every 30 seconds or so.

---

BTW, this is a separate question, but I heard that babies learn attacks from their father. If a baby is born from a Ditto and a female pokemon...will he learn attacks from the mother, or will he just learn nothing? Also, can two Ditto's breed with each other?

If you could post more info about this from Meowth346's page that would be great. I can't seem to access it via the forum links people are posting.

quote:

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Originally posted by Porcupine:
Wow! I didn't know that you could breed babies so quickly. I was just guessing that it was something like 1 egg an hour. Wow, you can breed them quite fast...it is WAY faster to breed for stats then. Thanks for letting me know.

---

not a problem. =)

quote:

---

BTW, this is a separate question, but I heard that babies learn attacks from their father. If a baby is born from a Ditto and a female pokemon...will he learn attacks from the mother, or will he just learn nothing? Also, can two Ditto's breed with each other?

---

yeah, attacks are inherited from the father and only the father. if you breed a female and a ditto, no attacks will pass over.

let's look at what i did to get thunderbolt on mareep. i bred a male pikachu with thunderbolt with a female mareep.

we know that thunderbolt will cross over to mareep and since the mother is a mareep, the babies will always be mareeps.

i kept breeding until i got a male mareep with thunderbolt.

i then breed the male mareep with my ditto for stats. this way i can breed for stats and always guarentee a mareep child that still knows thunderbolt.

can dittos breed with dittos? no clue. =)
maybe? =) i have no need to breed them so i really don't know. =) kinda silly, isn't it? to post that 5 page long report and still not know if ditto can breed with ditto? =) just never tried. =)

quote:

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If you could post more info about this from Meowth346's page that would be great. I can't seem to access it via the forum links people are posting.

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well, everything i know about breeding is pretty much here in this topic. =)

as for what attacks pokemon can inherit, u can always check www.pokemoninfodex.com. they're very useful to me. =)

hmm, my link to meowth's breeding stuff seems to still work for me.
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/meowth346/gs/breed/breed.htm

how about you?

-Cuban B

quote:

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Originally posted by necrosaro:
hm, Pokemon Infodex is good but i don't trust its data. For example, Bulbasaur CAN learn R/B/Y TM 50 Substitute, and Nidoran Female can NOT learn Amnesia.

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hmm, well, how about White Cat's Dex?
http://white-cat.virtualave.net/files/gsdex.txt

or Pokemon Daily has a bred attack list on their site.
http://www.pokedaily.com

quote:

---

Question: If it's impossible for male-only Pokemon to learn attacks through breeding (Such as Nidoran Male), of for genderless Pokemon to learn attacks through breeding (such as Staryu), then why do those Pokemon have the ability to learn several attacks through breeding? It could just be a fluke on Nintendo's part to allow Staryu to learn Aurora Beam, Barrier and Supersonic through breeding but not let him breed, any ideas on why this is so? Maybe there's another way to breed attacks? Maybe there will be in Crystal or Pokemon Stadium 3?

---

i'm sure i don't know. =) technically, it's impossible unless:

1) there's something i'm not thinking of or the rules change for these pokemon. why don't you give it a shot and post the results? =)

2) there will be new ways to breed come Crystal or Stadium GS. we can hope, but i doubt it.

3) it was coded but with no way to make it happen within the confines of the breeding rules. hey, it happens. =)

that's all i can really say on that. sorry i can't be more help. =)

-Cuban B

Meowth's page can be found at http://anime.at/pokefor/

Regarding the "breeding moves onto male Nidoran" question, perhaps female Nidoran sometimes give birth to male Nidoran? That doesn't explain how Tyrogue can get new moves, though...

quote:

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Originally posted by White Cat:
That doesn't explain how Tyrogue can get new moves, though...

---

rapid spin from hitmontop
mach punch hitmonchan
hijumpkick and foresight from hitmonlee

or did you mean new moves different from these? i THINK these are his only breed-only moves.

Meowth's main page: http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/meowth346/forever.htm

If that doesn't work, your browser's screwy.

Of course! Silly of me not to think of that. (Although it's Mind Reader on the breeding list, not Foresight.)

Also, SOMETIMES (this has only happened twice) the methods for calculating Defense and Special are reversed.

And Special is always either equal to the donor's, or 1/2 the donor's, more or less.

Well, that's my two cents, now to catch the perfect ditto. *is gone*

Not only that, but the example on meowth's page is... well, wrong. It's combined wrong.

On his page it treats X and Y and the Attack/Defense Speed/Special DVs as single base-15 numbers, which would make stat determination by breeding almost completely random. Note I say *almost*. The fact that defense ALMOST ALWAYS equals the donor's indicates his method is incorrect. Because if you had a set totalling more than F in defense, your defense would reset to 0 and you would have 1 greater attack. And god knows what happens if you have greater than F in attack.

Now, that's no good.
...
Anyways, the point is that somehow, special is usually equal to or half the donor's, and the distribution is 50% with a donor DV of 15. However, the lower the donor DV, the more likely you will get a value equal to the donor's DV. This trend becomes inverted once special DVs are below 7.

Ugh, I'll need to come up with an equation for that, until then, I MUST test more.

Thanks very much and keep up the good work, I'm finding this very useful.

I'm about to attempt an experiment with Hidden Power selection. I have a Ditto with a defense DV of A. I am attempting to get a Grass Power on Gastly. I believe the odds are 1 in 4 will have Grass Power if I'm not mistaken. I'll get back to you after I've hatched about 15 or so eggs and done DV checks.

Theoretically, you could also use this information to attempt to breed your own Shiney Pokemon. Just use Ditto with a Def of A and I suppose Spec of A just to increase your chances as the information is shakey. Well, it's worth a shot, and I'd love to get me a shiney! ^_^

Edit: Waitaminit, I'd probably want 2 for spec. Half the time the 8 is transferred over and 2 + 8 = A, so if you're breeding for shinys, the Spec should be 2 if the selection method is true, or A if the 50% direct method is true.

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No matter what you read or what you're told, experience will always yeild the truth.
-Moltres23

Egg's DV A = ( X and F0 ) + (parent's DV A and 0F )