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Author Topic: Questioning Clear Skies and Pray for Rain...
Philbo
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posted 08-01-2000 07:30 AM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This morning, I was lying in bed thinking about coming up with some strategies to use these 2 in.
While I was thinking something dawned on me. Ok, I know it has been said in the past that Clear Skies and Pray for Rain are the opposite of each other, but if you look at Pokemon Daily and look at the descriptions of them, you will see that they are in fact not. The main point that I’m trying to get through here is that: I understand the significance of the effects that Clear Skies creates, but I really don’t understand the significance of the effects that Pray for Rain creates.
Just read on, ok. I know this may sound stupid at the moment, but things should become clear *he hopes*

Ok, lets look at the effects of both of them (I’m taking these from Pokemon Daily’s moves page)

Clear Skies
Causes Fire attacks ( whether used by your Pokémon or opponent Pokémon ) to do 50% more damage
Causes Water attacks to do 50% less damage.
Causes Solar Beam to become a 1-turn attack,
Reduces the accuracy of Thunder to 49.6%,
Causes a 9.8% chance of a frozen Pokémon thawing out,
Doubles the effectiveness of the recovery moves ‘Morning sunlight’, ‘Photosynthesis’ and ‘Lucky Light’.
All effects mentioned above last only for 5 turns after use.

Pray for Rain
Causes Water attacks ( whether used by your Pokémon or opponent Pokémon ) to do 50% more damage,
Causes Fire attacks to do 50% less damage.
Causes Thunder to have 99.6% accuracy (even when the opponent has used Double team or Minimize),
Halves the effectiveness of the recovery moves ‘Morning sunlight’, ‘Photosynthesis’ and ‘Lucky Light’. All effects mentioned above last only for 5 turns after use.


Now, lets take Clear Skies and put it into a practical situation. Lets say you have a Heruga with the set: Clear Skies, Fire blast, Solar beam, Crunch
Crunch is not really that important, as it’s not affected by Clear Skies
Right, now we get the effects of Clear Skies and analyse them, how do they Help Heruga??

Clear Skies
Causes Fire attacks ( whether used by your Pokémon or opponent Pokémon ) to do 50% more damage
This is obvious. Brings the base damage of Fire blast up to 180. Then with the STAB that Heruga gets for it, brings the base damage up to 270. No nonsense, pure power attack. Not much is going to stand up against that.
Causes Water attacks to do 50% less damage.
Protects Heruga from one of his main weaknesses, water. With this in effect, Heruga will take normal damage from any water attack, which is obviously an advantage being part fire.
Now this is the thing that has me confused (you’ll see why later)

Causes Solar Beam to become a 1-turn attack,
This allows Heruga to do a decent amount of damage to water types, and because Solar Beam is now a 1 turn attack, it allows him to do so without giving away the fact that he is going to use it

Reduces the accuracy of Thunder to 49.6%,
Causes a 9.8% chance of a frozen Pokémon thawing out,
Doubles the effectiveness of the recovery moves ‘Morning sunlight’, ‘Photosynthesis’ and ‘Lucky Light’.
These have no direct effect on Heruga (because of his moveset)

After reviewing these, I have come to a conclusion, which has it’s basis firmly set in both pokemon games, at the very beginning.
We all know at the start of R/B and G/S (Yellow is the exeption), that you get a choice of either a Fire, Grass, or Water pokemon (Charmander, Bulbasaur, Squirtle/ Hinoarashi, Chikoriita, Waninoko respectedly).
This begins the whole strategy of pokemon (The Rock-Paper-Scissors aspect)
So:
Fire > Grass
Grass > Water
Water > Fire

If you look at the aspects that Clear Skies introduces, then you will see that (when Clear skies is in effect)
Fire is still super effective against Grass
Fire is now super effective against Water (through Solar beam)
Water is now normal against Fire
Grass is still not very effective against fire

So…..(Sorry this is so long winded)
Fire now rules the roost over the other two starting types. This is my basic theory of what Clear Skies is meant to do….

Now we come to pray for rain, and this is where the confusion starts. Again, lets put it into a practical situation. You have Rantan: Pray for Rain, Surf, Thunder, Confuse ray
Confuse Ray is not really that important, as it’s not affected by Pray for Rain
Right, now we get the effects of Pray for Rain and analyse them, how do they Help Rantan??


Pray for Rain
Causes Water attacks ( whether used by your Pokémon or opponent Pokémon ) to do 50% more damage,
Again, obvious. Surf’s power is increased to 135, and with STAB, it’s increased again to 202.5 base (I don’t know if Rantan learns Hydro pump, but if he does it’ll be the same as Fire Blast on Heruga).


Causes Fire attacks to do 50% less damage.
This is the point I’ve been building up to…..
Why????
Water pokemon learn Pray for Rain yes? And fire is already not very effective against Water.
If we keep with the system that Clear Skies sets out (that the move is used to give it the advantage over the other 2 starting types), wouldn’t it be more sensible to reduce grass’ effectiveness by half????
This would be the same as Clear Skies reducing Waters effectiveness, it protects it against it’s starting weakness….
To me this makes no sense what-so-ever.

Causes Thunder to have 99.6% accuracy (even when the opponent has used Double team or Minimize),
Again,….Why????
Clear Skies makes Solar beam a 1 turn attack, so that it can effectively attack the type that it is weak to. But, Thunder is not very effective against grass, so how does this help????
Electric is ONLY super effective against flying and water…
Wouldn’t it be more helpful here to make Blizzard 100% accurate, so that it would give water the advantage over grass (the type it is weak against)????


Halves the effectiveness of the recovery moves ‘Morning sunlight’, ‘Photosynthesis’ and ‘Lucky Light’.
All effects mentioned above last only for 5 turns after use.
[b] These have no direct effect on Rantan (because of his moveset)


So, after this I am confused….
There is a definite use for Clear Skies on ANY fire type (that can also learn Solar Beam), because it gives it the advantage against water.
But, with pray for Rain, Beyond Rantan, I can see no real use for it. There are no other Water pokemon apart from Starmie that can learn Thunder and a Water move (I know there is Lugia, but he doesn’t get STAB on either of them, which I think is a bit of a waste). It gives no advantage over Grass.


But also, among all of this confusion……where is grass??
That may sound stupid, but because of the triangle (Fire>Grass>Water), grass really should have a Clear Skies/Pray for Rain equivalent.
If it did, then there would be no problems with this
There would be a way to do it so that which ever type used it, it would have the advantage over each of the other starting types….
So why isn’t there one?

I think then, that the ideal effects for each one to have would be:
Clear Skies: Fire increases 50%, Solar Beam is 1 turn attack
Pray for Rain: Water increases 50%, Blizzard is 100% acurate
Clear Skies/Pray for rain GRASS EQUIVALENT: Grass increases 50%, Rock Slide is 100% accurate and increases 25%

This would of course presume that there was a pokemon created that could learn both grass and rock moves (there may already be some, but Darryn would be the person to tell you about that)
This would balance out all of them so that each one could be dominant against the other two (The other effects of them would not really be relevant)

All in all though, I think the programmers stuffed this up if they intended to do what they started with Clear Skies….

What do you think?

Sorry if I’ve bored you all to death with this, I didn’t intend for it to be so long……

cya
-Philbo

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Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
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[This message has been edited by Philbo (edited 08-01-2000).]


From: Kent, England | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gloomboy
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posted 08-01-2000 12:00 PM      Profile for Gloomboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You don't get it,do ou? These attacks symbolize the coming of storms and good weather! Pray for Rain symbolizes the
coming of thunder and rain,making the
effects logical. If they changed it to
what you wanted,it wouldn't be Pray for
Rain,it'd be Snowy Weather or such.

Also,the makers couldn't think up a decent
attack similar for grass-types.

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From: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Philbo
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posted 08-01-2000 02:41 PM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No Gloom Boy, I do get it
It's just I'm questioning WHY they gave those moves the charachteristics that they do...
Surely they would have created the move before the name....
Read it again though, you should get where I'm coming from (I know it's long, but writing it took longer than it'll take you to read it)

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Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
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"Damn you vile woman-you've impeded my work since the day I escaped from your cursed ovarian Bastille!"-Stewie, Family Guy

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Kobayashi
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posted 08-01-2000 03:25 PM      Profile for Kobayashi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess some moves are better than others..

You use the fire, grass, water triangle too much, although it is the basic idea of pokemon battling it is still only the basic idea, there are another 14 different types to use.

BTW, I haven't seen an answer to this but what happens if someone does Pray for Rain then the oppenent does Clear Skies? Are the both effects cancelled? Or does the second move just 'over ride' it?

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Philbo
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posted 08-01-2000 03:34 PM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
yes, I know, but going by the effects that Clear Skies brings in, I would say that Clear Skies is based on the Triangle....

I think they take place at the same time, and some of the effects just cancel each other out

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Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
"Welcome to Earth..."-Will Smith, Independence Day
"Damn you vile woman-you've impeded my work since the day I escaped from your cursed ovarian Bastille!"-Stewie, Family Guy

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Wizzymoto
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posted 08-01-2000 03:54 PM      Profile for Wizzymoto   Email Wizzymoto   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ever heard the saying "Why ask Why?" ? Maybe the programmers weren't even thinking about the triangle when they came up with the moves, and u, with your profound knowledge, just thought it up yourself. If they had, wouldn't they have included a move to make Grass good against fire? That way it'd work out Fire over WAter over Grass Over Fire. A lot better than just having fire rock against all of em.

Well, I rambled for a while there, and the point is, who cares why its like that, just take advantage of the fact the fire types are a lot more powerful..

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From: Irvine, CA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Philbo
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posted 08-01-2000 04:11 PM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WizzyMoto:
profound knowledge

lol

It just doesn't make sense to me, that's the only reason......

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Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
"Welcome to Earth..."-Will Smith, Independence Day
"Damn you vile woman-you've impeded my work since the day I escaped from your cursed ovarian Bastille!"-Stewie, Family Guy

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cfalcon
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posted 08-01-2000 04:13 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't feel it's fair to analyze within that triangle. The fact that fire monsters get grass attacks looks to be potentialy broken. The water setup looks to be nice to take out overpowered Fire/Flying (Hou Hou, notably), as any electrics will wop them with Thunder, and their Fire attacks will me muted.

The Fire / Water thing goes between Fire doing Normal to Water and taking Normal damage, to doing Half to Water and taking Double Damage, to doing a Fourth to Water and taking Quad damage, correct?

I don't think this favors the Fire type as much as you do.

Yes, it seems silly when you look at it flat out. However, recall that only Grass gets the silly sleep moves in general... and the water/fire/grass thing breaks down after the first several levels anyway, with other types intruding rapidly.

I could certainly see Pray For Rain giving the accuracy boost to Blizzard: have you tested to make sure it doesn't?

This assumes that all your info is accurate (haven't tested myself).

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KeroKato
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posted 08-01-2000 04:36 PM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Philbo, they thought of an idea for a move, not the strategy behind it. Rain Clouds come, Thunder does too. The Sky Clears up, Solar Beam charges faster. Sure, those Fire Pokes get an unstoppable combo against their weaknesses, but why not just use something hurt by neither? And Electrics, oh sweet Freya the Electrics! A Raichu with Stormy Weather, Thunder, and Surf kills all who dare oppose it!
As far as I can tell, it is a much better thing to use Stormy Weather with Electrics than it is to with Water types.

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From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Philbo
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posted 08-01-2000 04:46 PM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, I haven't tested these out, but I'm going from Darryns data on pokemon Daily....

quote:
Clear Skies: Fire increases 50%, Solar Beam is 1 turn attack
Pray for Rain: Water increases 50%, Blizzard is 100% acurate
Clear Skies/Pray for rain GRASS EQUIVALENT: Grass increases 50%, Rock Slide is 100% accurate and increases 25%


Sorry, might of confused people on this one....
This is what I think the moves SHOULD do, not what they actually do or I think they do.

quote:
The Fire / Water thing goes between Fire doing Normal to Water and taking Normal damage, to doing Half to Water and taking Double Damage,

Yep, this is right. So with Clear Skies in effect, Fire does more damage to water and takes less damge from water.
That is a BIG advantage

quote:
to doing a Fourth to Water and taking Quad damage, correct?

Sorry cfalcon, where did you get that from?
Are you talking about when both are in effect?
When both are in effect:
Fire attacks do normal damage
Water attacks do normal damage
Thunder is 74.6% accurate (as normal)
`Morning sunlight’, ‘Photosynthesis’ and ‘Lucky Light’ recover normal amounts of damage

These are the ones I'm sure off

9.8% chance of a pokémon thawing out
Solar beam is a 1 turn attack

Now these 2 are problems...
These are 2 effects brought in by Clear Skies..
So far, everything has been opposites, and so cancels each other out...
Does Pray for Rain cancel these effects?
I could test the solar beam factor very easily, but we'd need a ROM hacker like Meowth to work out the 9.8% chance of thawing.

Well, cya latter
-Philbo

------------------
Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
"Welcome to Earth..."-Will Smith, Independence Day
"Damn you vile woman-you've impeded my work since the day I escaped from your cursed ovarian Bastille!"-Stewie, Family Guy

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From: Kent, England | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Philbo
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posted 08-01-2000 04:48 PM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't tested the Blizzard thing, I might get the chance to soon I don't know.....
I'll try to

------------------
Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
"Welcome to Earth..."-Will Smith, Independence Day
"Damn you vile woman-you've impeded my work since the day I escaped from your cursed ovarian Bastille!"-Stewie, Family Guy

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From: Kent, England | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Elian
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posted 08-01-2000 11:17 PM      Profile for Elian   Author's Homepage   Email Elian   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
sorry, i didnt bother to read all of the posts......

Clear skies:
it is clear skies, the rain that would come from the rain clouds would put out a fire.... hence when the skies are clear the fire can burn...

water attacks do less cause the skies are clear... (like if it calls on rain or somethin)

solar beam becomes a one turn attack cause it can gather sunlight cause the skies are clear

thunders accuracy goes down cause there is now thunder clouds in the area..

i dont know that the chance of a pokemon thawing out was before, but im guessin that this is higher, cause the sun can help thaw it out

the recovery moves... they all have somethin to do with the sun, well when the sun is out they would be better... hmmmm ... that was hard to figure out </sarcastic>


Pray for rain:

rain would help the water attack do more damage...

the rain would take the fire pokemons power away cause they are harmed by water

well when there is rain, there is usually thunder and lightning... hence thunder haveing better accuracy

when the sun isnt out, then the recovery moves that have to do with the sun would do worse..


im sorry, but it isnt that hard to just analyze things!

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Atma
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posted 08-02-2000 04:27 AM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wizzymoto:
Ever heard the saying "Why ask Why?" ? Maybe the programmers weren't even thinking about the triangle when they came up with the moves

Hehehe in the IRC channel we've pretty much established that the programmers took heavy doses of LSD while programming Pokemon(insert mental image of a Surfing Rhydon)

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Jackdaw
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posted 08-02-2000 08:00 AM      Profile for Jackdaw   Author's Homepage   Email Jackdaw   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll explain:

In R/B/G, Grass was the type for beginers, fire for expert, and water for inbetween. Grass clearly had the advantange in the triangle at the begining.
So, in G/S, the mixed things up.
Grass is now for expert difficulty, and fire is for newbies. So, Grass, in short, is meant to suck, just like fire did in R/B.

This should make sence, but then again, I'm pretty drunk...

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Articuno64
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posted 08-05-2000 04:07 PM      Profile for Articuno64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Nintendo was just trying to even out the types a bit more. In R/B/Y, Psychic was the dominent type, which was why dark was created. Fighting was a bad type so they gave them better Special defense and an advantage against dark types. The same thing goes with water, fire, and grass types. In R/B/Y, water was the best type, grass was medium, and fire was the worst. So they give fire types an advantage over steel types and Clear Skies to make them better. So now it is reversed. Fire is good against grass and normal against water types(because of Clear Skies), grass is just the same as it was before which keeps it in the middle. Water is bad against grass and is now normal against fire which makes it the worst type. Does this make sense? Another thing. Pray for Rain is sort of a bad thing because it raises the accuracy of Thunder which is one of water types greatest threats. If the enemy water pokémon uses Pray for Rain we can replace Thunderbolt for Thunder on our electric types because it has the same accuracy, and Thunder is stronger. That is another thing that tones down the power of water types.

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Dark Jaguar
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posted 08-05-2000 11:57 PM      Profile for Dark Jaguar   Email Dark Jaguar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One thing that must be remembered is that using Pray For Rain or Clear Skys has one obvious weakness. It uses a turn, so in the sense that the turn could be used for other setups that might be more effective those two moves wouldn't effect the balance too much. Well, that's what I think so far but since I have NO GS experience I can't say anything for certain.

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Da Fwifta
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posted 08-06-2000 04:38 AM      Profile for Da Fwifta   Author's Homepage   Email Da Fwifta   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can Raichu learn Pray for rain? If so, Thunder, Surf, Pray for Rain, uhhh? I'm not to hot on gold/silver (since I haven't played it yet), but this is just a thought.

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Jackdaw
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posted 08-06-2000 05:56 AM      Profile for Jackdaw   Author's Homepage   Email Jackdaw   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, every electric pokemon in the game can learn Pray for Rain, and that's the new hot combo for Raichu in G/S.

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Da Fwifta
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posted 08-06-2000 06:18 AM      Profile for Da Fwifta   Author's Homepage   Email Da Fwifta   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeh, cool. See, I had only just heard of this move pray for rain, and already I came up with the new combo for Raichu that is already in place.

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Pokecapn
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posted 08-06-2000 08:45 AM      Profile for Pokecapn   Author's Homepage   Email Pokecapn   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Da Fwifta:
Can Raichu learn Pray for rain? If so, Thunder, Surf, Pray for Rain, uhhh? I'm not to hot on gold/silver (since I haven't played it yet), but this is just a thought.


A defense move, reflect, if not a G/S defense move.

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Dark Jaguar
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posted 08-06-2000 02:37 PM      Profile for Dark Jaguar   Email Dark Jaguar   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, cool, Raichu is probably a power-house now eh? Unless something else in G/S prevents that. I think I'd throw in thunder wave as that last move myself, but that's just me.

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Prof. Dasugi
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posted 08-07-2000 06:29 PM      Profile for Prof. Dasugi   Email Prof. Dasugi   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another strange thing is that Grass gains a few advantages from Clear Skies - the Photosynthesis bonus, the Solar Beam bonus...

But it also has no even more reason to fear Fire types.
On the other hand..
it gains the advantage from Pray for Rain(if you apply the triangle) that Fire types are now less of a threat to it - and water types simply become average. But it doesn't lose the Solar Beam bonus(or does it)?

And do some pokemon thaw in GS without Master Flame or Clear Skies?

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Sutoreiku87
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posted 08-09-2000 11:36 AM      Profile for Sutoreiku87   Email Sutoreiku87   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Prof. Dasugi: And do some pokemon thaw in GS without Master Flame or Clear Skies?

So far, I've heard Freeze thaws out after four or so turns, but I could be wrong.

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TeeJay
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posted 08-09-2000 11:47 AM      Profile for TeeJay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But then freeze would be the same thing as sleep almost.

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Prof. Dasugi
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posted 08-09-2000 02:23 PM      Profile for Prof. Dasugi   Email Prof. Dasugi   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How *does* sleep work in G/S?
Same as in RBY?
Same as in Stadium?
Can Spore be breeded everywhere now?
Is it worth it?

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Prof. Dasugi
Huh? Eevee is evolving?
Eevee evolved into Eon!

What's an Eon?


From: UK | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
TeeJay
Farting Nudist
Member # 265

Member Rated:
posted 08-09-2000 03:09 PM      Profile for TeeJay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the only thing I know about Sleep that has changed is that you can attack the same turn you wake up, thus eliminating those times when your opponent keeps putting you to sleep over and over.

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"Salad is O-K!"- Fish

ICQ: 13724101
AIM: daBIGTom


From: Overland Park, Kansas, USA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Philbo
Farting Nudist
Member # 443

Member Rated:
posted 08-09-2000 05:03 PM      Profile for Philbo   Email Philbo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Spore cannot be bred FULL STOP
(hehehe, you guys say PERIOD)

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Philbo, you rock.-Cat-Gonk
"Damn you vile woman-you've impeded my work since the day I escaped from your cursed ovarian Bastille!"-Stewie, Family Guy
Peter_the_man: you better not mess with my dick......'cos my dick will kick your a... wait a minute...Nevermind!
ICQ:77057994
AIM:Philbosan


From: Kent, England | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged


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