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Author Topic: Azure's Double Team data...
Atma
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posted 07-18-2000 08:24 PM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been playing around with the numbers posted on Azure (http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/attacks/comp/evacc.htm) and I've come to the conclusion that they're flawed (sorry guys... I'm not saying it's bad, it's still helpful! It's just that you had bad luck with your testing accuracy). I've been trying to find a formula for the evade rate as a function of the number of Double Teams used, but the numbers just don't fit. Here are the percentages given:

34.1
50
55.8
59.6
67.1
71.6

It just doesn't make sense to have a big gap from 59 to 67 after smaller gaps from 50 to 55 and 55 to 59! Anyway, based on their data, I'm guessing that the actual nmumbers look more like this:

33.33333
50
57.5
63
66.66667
70

These numbers, are NOT backed by data, they're just my guesses based on Azure's approximations. Anyway, based on Azure's data, I made an Excel sheet of the number of attacks you would be ahead (or behind) by after x rounds of battle which include x DTs (for example, 5 rounds at 1/3 evade rate comes out to 3.333 successful attacks). If you want a copy of the whole Excel sheet, get on the channel in mIRC and I'll DCC you a copy. Here's a chart of the number of Double Teams to use based on the number of rounds you think the battle will last (including the rounds spenmt Double Teaming):

1-2 rounds: 0 DTs
3 rounds: either 0 or 1 DTs (1 DT is better by 0.023 attacks)
4-6 rounds: 1 DT
7 rounds: either 1 or 2 DTs (1 DT is better by 0.046 DTs
8-17 rounds: 2 DTs
18-20 rounds: 2 or 3 DTs (difference of under 0.1 attack in all three cases)
21 rounds: 2, 3, or 5 DTs (difference of 0.102 attacks)
22 rounds: 3 or 5 DTs (difference of .063 attacks)
23-24 rounds: 5 DTs
25-29 rounds: 5 or 6 DTs (difference of under 0.1 attack)
30+ rounds: 6 DTs

There ya go, hard facts based on Azure's data. Three more things that I'd like to note:
(1) These numbers are assuming your DTer goes first. If your opponent goes first, count one extra round when determining how many DTs to use.
(2) When you use the full six DTs, it's not until the tenth round (11th if your opponent goes first) that, on average, you'll have gotten in more successful attacks than your opponent.
(3) Although I didn't get a formula, I'm sure it's not quadratic -- if it was, it would mean one of these highly improbable things: (a) the evade rate DECREASES on the last DTs, or (b) Azure's data on 1 and 2 DTs is off a LOT (10% or so).

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From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 07-18-2000 08:56 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't remember who pointed it out, but the pattern seems to be:

1/3 = 33.3
2/4 = 50
2.5/4.5 = 55.5
3/5 = 60
4/6 = 66.6
5/7 = 71.4

...which is really close to what Toby came up with. Considering the number of trials he did, I doubt his numbers are more than a couple points off the target, but we have had some odd results (chance of Sludge to poison, for example).

Not sure why they chose the third one to be the wuss upgrade, but it looks like they thought 6/8 is just too effective...even for the programmers' skewed view of how things should work!

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"Rarely is the question asked: 'Is our children learning?'."
- George W. Bush


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 07-18-2000 09:04 PM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hmm... I suppose that's one way of intrerpreting the data. It's a pattern but doesn't really make sense... although Rhydon being able to Surf doesn't make much sense either....

Anyway, if those numbvers are accurate, then my results aren't far off from the truth, and 3 or 4 DTs really aren't a good idea.

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From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wizzymoto
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posted 07-19-2000 02:26 PM      Profile for Wizzymoto   Email Wizzymoto   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The actual numbers aren't really that important. It just shows that after the first three times you shouldn't go out of your way to Dteam cause the effect isn't as great.

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From: Irvine, CA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Givera
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posted 07-24-2000 02:17 PM      Profile for Givera   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you mind if I ask the formula you used to determine those numbers??
-Givera

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"I expect to see [Darryn] and Givera made Azurians when GS is released in English" -Ancient-Egyptian Cat-Gonk


From: Plano, Tx | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 07-24-2000 06:37 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Which numbers?

I don't think there's a formula for any of them, really.

We got our RBY numbers from testing, and from what I can tell, this TeamPA site gets them from ripping the ROM.

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"Rarely is the question asked: 'Is our children learning?'."
- George W. Bush


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 07-25-2000 11:11 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Darryn:
And a much more accurate method it is too, might I had (ROM hacking)

Sometimes...altho ROM hacking came up with some pretty off-base data for Selfdestruct and Explosion. It takes both to be sure of what's really going on.

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- George W. Bush


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Arcanine
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posted 07-26-2000 02:08 PM      Profile for Arcanine   Email Arcanine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
very accurate but a bit confusing to understand

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From: England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 07-27-2000 01:06 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Darryn:
Well, if it wasn't realised that Selfdestruct and Explosion count the opponent's Defense as half of the actual value, then yes, it could be a problem

Exactly. Unless you understand everything else about the program, you can't be sure ripped data is totally correct in context. It's the most accurate starting point, for sure, but it's still just a starting point.

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"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?"
- George W. Bush

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 07-27-2000).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 07-27-2000 02:56 AM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I tried updating the file with the numbers Mr. K and Fanha posted, and came out with similar results:

(1) At the 50-round mark, the difference in attacks gained between 0 DTs and 1 DT is bigger than the difference between 1 DT and 6. If I extended the chart further, eventually the difference between 1 and 6 would be greater, but when's the last time you saw a battle (and I don't mean a PP-wasting battle) last over 50 rounds?

(2) The difference in rounds gained between 2 and 3 is about half of the difference between 0 and 1, and is bigger than the difference between 3 and 6.

(3) The third-biggest gain is with the 5th DT, but it doesn't come close to the gains from the first and second DTs.

Conclusion: Two DTs or less is almost always the best. If you're sure your pokemon will last long enough to make a 3rd DT worthwhile (in other words 20 rounds or more... anyone up for a DTing Mewtwo?), then do a 4th and 5th DT too, and a 6th DT is recommended as well.

If you want actual numbers on the number of DTs based on the number of rounds, here we go:

1-2 rounds: 0 DTs
3 rounds: 0 or 1 DTs
4-6 rounds: 1 DT
7 rounds: 1 or 2 DTs
8-19 rounds: 2 DTs
20 rounds: 2 or 3 DTs
21 rounds: 3 DTs
22-27 rounds: 5 DTs
28+ rounds: 6 DTs

quote:
Here are the previous results:
1-2 rounds: 0 DTs
3 rounds: either 0 or 1 DTs (1 DT is better by 0.023 attacks)
4-6 rounds: 1 DT
7 rounds: either 1 or 2 DTs (1 DT is better by 0.046 DTs
8-17 rounds: 2 DTs
18-20 rounds: 2 or 3 DTs (difference of under 0.1 attack in all three cases)
21 rounds: 2, 3, or 5 DTs (difference of 0.102 attacks)
22 rounds: 3 or 5 DTs (difference of .063 attacks)
23-24 rounds: 5 DTs
25-29 rounds: 5 or 6 DTs (difference of under 0.1 attack)
30+ rounds: 6 DTs

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From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Givera
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posted 07-27-2000 02:18 PM      Profile for Givera   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
Which numbers?

I don't think there's a formula for any of them, really.

We got our RBY numbers from testing, and from what I can tell, this TeamPA site gets them from ripping the ROM.


I meant the formula Atma used to determine you should use 6 DT's if you're battle will last 30+ rounds and such...
-Givera

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"I expect to see [Darryn] and Givera made Azurians when GS is released in English" -Ancient-Egyptian Cat-Gonk


From: Plano, Tx | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 07-27-2000 11:36 PM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Givera:
I meant the formula Atma used to determine you should use 6 DT's if you're battle will last 30+ rounds and such...
-Givera

Well, it was basically plugging numbers into Excel to create a table... but anyway, suppose that your pokemon uses Swords Dance and then cuts loose with two physical attacks (Earthquake, Scratch, Rock Slide, etc.). In the mean time, your opponent will have gotten in three attacks. Since Swords Dance doubles your special, this is like making four attacks in the time your opponent does three. You can calculate DT's effects in a similar way, except that instead of you gaining turns, your opponent loses turns.

Suppose you go first and use Double Team, then attack three times, and your opponent attacks four times.You will have gotten in 3 attacks in five rounds, whereas your opponent's 4 attacks each have only a 2/3 chance of succeeding, so that comes out to an average of 2.667 attacks (4 * 2/3) which got through DT. Now suppose you spent two of those turns DTing and two attacking. You will have 2 attacks, whereas your opponent will have gotten 2.333 attacks ((1 * 2/3) + (3 * 1/2)) past your DTs. And that's why using more DTs isn't always better.

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From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
KeroKato
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posted 07-28-2000 02:06 AM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:
And a much more accurate method it is too, might I had (ROM hacking)


ROM hacking produces questionable results. ROMs aren't the actual thing and are prone to errors. Remember that G/S ROM bug that made Erica use a Rattata a while back?
They can't be trusted, and besides, they're illegal.

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Reality's End, We've got stuff!
"The Great Circle of Crap is now complete!" -Drew from the Drew Carey Show
"I'll take care of it; I'm the captain." - William Shatner, not as Captain Kirk
"And then the bacon with wings flew right through that door!" - uh, it's better not to ask about this one


From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 07-28-2000 01:34 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1- Swords Dance doubles your attack the first time. It isn't exponential: using it twice adds your original attack to your current attack, then does it again, so you are striking with triple strength. In order to make the Greatly Increased moves pay off, you have to connect once (to break even) then connect again (to profit from it).

2- All cartridges can be dumped correctly or not. An incorrect ROM is just that. A correct one is just that. ROMs are in no way illegal, much as CDs are not illegal. Using them in an illegal fashion certainly is illegal (by definition), but the existance of a ROM is not a breach of law, nor is the possesion of one under the correct circumstances.

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-cfalcon

"That's an awesome cape too, look, it's black and white!"
-pkthunder, on Lance's cape in the Gameboy version


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
KeroKato
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posted 07-29-2000 01:24 AM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ROMs as backups of CD are not illegal, Falcon, but check the back of your Nintendo games. It says that making copies is illegal and unnecessary for the protection of the game.
When you're talking cartridges, it's all illegal.

------------------
Reality's End, We've got stuff!
"The Great Circle of Crap is now complete!" -Drew from the Drew Carey Show
"I'll take care of it; I'm the captain." - William Shatner, not as Captain Kirk
"And then the bacon with wings flew right through that door!" - uh, it's better not to ask about this one


From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
KeroKato
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posted 07-30-2000 12:40 AM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*falls back in shock*

Fanha! You're actually intelligent! I take back everything I ever said about... even the stuff you never heard about *shify eye mode*.

------------------
Reality's End, We've got stuff!
"The Great Circle of Crap is now complete!" -Drew from the Drew Carey Show
"I'll take care of it; I'm the captain." - William Shatner, not as Captain Kirk
"And then the bacon with wings flew right through that door!" - uh, it's better not to ask about this one


From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 08-01-2000 02:43 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This has been covered before. U.S. law guarantees the right to have one backup copy of any software you own. Nintendo can't overrule this. Therefore, there is nothing illegal or unethical about using one if you own the actual game.

The "24 hour rule" and similar things are total bunk, though. And distributing ROMs on the Internet is illegal, even though having one of a game you own isn't.

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"If some loser like Ash can save the world, then just imagine what you could do!"
-- StarCaliber, on The Power of One's moral


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
KeroKato
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posted 08-01-2000 04:17 PM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The back-up copy thing goes for CDs. Nintendo says there is no need for back-ups of their cartridges and doing so is entirely illegal.
Read the back of a Nintendo game sometime. Hey, I guess they can overrule the law.

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Reality's End
"Cloud, your head looks like a Chocobo!" - Aerith, from FFVII

"What happened to Raymond?" - Space Ghost
"Oh, I *burp* ate him." - Zorak
"That's barbaric!... is there any left?" - Space Ghost, from The Hunger


From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 08-01-2000 04:32 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KeroKato:
ROMs as backups of CD are not illegal, Falcon, but check the back of your Nintendo games. It says that making copies is illegal and unnecessary for the protection of the game.
When you're talking cartridges, it's all illegal.


Try again. Read it carefully. From the top of my head, it states that making backups in unnecessary and unauthorized (meaning N doesn't want you to, not the government).

Don't feel bad: it's written to fool you.

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-cfalcon

"Here in America, we capitalize Nouns"


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 08-02-2000 04:32 AM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:

Try again. Read it carefully. From the top of my head, it states that making backups in unnecessary and unauthorized (meaning
N doesn't want you to, not the government).

Don't feel bad: it's written to fool you.


Well, read this:

quote:
Pokemon Blue manual, page 57:
"WARNING: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by domestic and intrernational copyright laws."

That sounds pretty clear to me...

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From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 08-02-2000 05:13 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That sounds pretty clear to me...

Clear, but still wrong...


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 08-02-2000 09:15 PM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Noper, it's not wrong... I copied it directly from the manual.

It says that in Mario 64 instructions too. If it was wrong, they would have removed it over the two years.

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From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 08-03-2000 06:38 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I meant "wrong" in the sense that it's not legally correct, not that you copied the text wrong.

Nintendo is pretending that the law is different than what it actually is, in order to scare people into not using ROMs, even in the cases when they're legal.

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-- Godzilla 2000 commercial


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
KeroKato
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posted 08-03-2000 10:32 AM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm, illegal? It is rather hard to misinterpet that word. Yeah, I think them saying that ROMs are absolutely illegal is all just a trick

Quite frankly, makers of software can put all sorts of wacky laws on it. Ever check out C++? It's all legal! Only may be used by one person, cannot redistribute software without legal copyright, etc. And it is all covered by the Constitution and international laws. Hmm, just like above.

Sorry guys, illegal means illegal.

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Reality's End
"Cloud, your head looks like a Chocobo!" - Aerith, from FFVII

"What happened to Raymond?" - Space Ghost
"Oh, I *burp* ate him." - Zorak
"That's barbaric!... is there any left?" - Space Ghost, from The Hunger


From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 08-03-2000 10:56 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
KeroKato: Sorry guys, illegal means illegal.

Yes, but it's Nintendo saying that it's illegal, not the government.

I don't know if it's illegal or not, but I know I wouldn't take Nintendo's word for it.

Do you believe everything Philip Morris says?

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- Howard Stern


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Prof. Dasugi
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posted 08-11-2000 11:26 AM      Profile for Prof. Dasugi   Email Prof. Dasugi   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nintendo have a motive for stopping people using ROMs - Nintendo are deeply pirate-phobic. They lost a console that way(in Japan). So, they just shout to scare people from doing stuff. It's just shouting threats, basically. Remember, they don't want people to copy the ROMs. At all. Ever. I think its legal to own a back-up copy if you own one. However you obtain it is irrelevant.

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Huh? Eevee is evolving?
Eevee evolved into Eon!

What's an Eon?


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