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Author Topic: Maxing of stats at 999
Porcupine
Farting Nudist
Member # 46

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posted 04-28-2000 09:36 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Encouraged by Wintermute's new working CH formula, I have started testing a lot of stuff again! I tested how Paralysis works exactly, then I saw the site and saw my tests were wasted because of the new Paralysis section! =D But my tests agree with Azure Heights and I can believe Paralysis normally 1/4 your Speed. Dunno why my earlier tests said 1/2, maybe I screwed up so long ago.

Also, I can believe that moves like Barrier max out at 999 Defense. I just Gamesharked my stat to 999, and then if I casted Barrier the game would say "But, nothing happened!"

I also did the following tests: If you Gameshark any stat to over 999, the graphics for the number screw up. However, for the Speed stat only, any humongous number you Gameshark WILL work. If your Speed is 3,801 you will be mega fast and faster than any other regular pokemon. YET, for all the other stats Attack, Defense, Special, if you set your stat to over 1023, your pokemon may become super weak. 1024 acts like a stat of 0, 1025 a stat of 1, etc.

Here are some things that need to be updated in Azure website I think:

1) Selfdestruct and Explosion damage should be 260 and 340 respectively, not 275 and 350. Azure's numbers are too high, you can do some damage trials and it will be noticeable. In addition, the numbers 260 and 340 is exactly equal to the numbers Necrosaro ripped out of the ROM, times TWO (look on his attacks for Blue/Red...NOT Gold/Silver as the data for that is different).

2) Already Azure has updated the Lower Special rate of Psychic to 40%. However I dunno if any other moves like this have been altered. I have enough data to show that Bubble and Aurora Beam both have side-effect rates between 30 and 40% (but not the exact rate) without a doubt (totaling maybe 400 trials between all the moves). I believe ALL stat-altering side-effects have high rates like this, not 10% like all FAQs say. In addition I think Fire Blast has the same chance to burn as Psychic does to lower special (closer to 40%, not what Azure says as 30%).

This is the thing I am researching now, but I am too lazy to get enough data to be sure (I'll post what I have later). Maybe all these type of moves have variable side-effect rate, and the formula is given by Wintermute's CH formula (Base Speed / 2) / 256.....except that you must replace Base Speed in the formula by (128 + Base Speed / 2). Actually my data do NOT match up to that formula I wrote exactly, but it is close and I don't have enough data. That formula would generate side-effect rates near 30% for the crappiest slowest pokemons, and 40% for the fastest ones.

I'm going to switch my attention to the BDF instead of the ones above though. I still think the BDF is very incomplete (I printed out ALL my damage data yesterday, sat with pencil, paper, and calculator, and tried to match it EXACTLY to the BDF or any modification I could easily think of, and it failed completely -- of course it matches roughly though, I'm talking about wanting to calculate damage accurate to the exact point of damage for minimum and max damage). Damn, I think I don't have time today to do the tests I want.....because of all the great stuff on this forum!!! I'll have to wait till monday!!! X|

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
Member # 338

posted 04-28-2000 11:16 PM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If lonely you were understandable

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alex


From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
Member # 5

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posted 04-29-2000 01:46 AM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by Porcupine:

But my tests agree with Azure Heights and I can believe Paralysis normally 1/4 your Speed.

And if the data on the Paralysis page weren't convincing enough, I now know the RAM address for the current Speed of the pokémon in battle, and have watched it getting quartered by PAR! You can see Attack getting halved by BRN, too.

If your Speed is 3,801 you will be mega fast and faster than any other regular pokemon. YET, for all the other stats Attack, Defense, Special, if you set your stat to over 1023, your pokemon may become super weak. 1024 acts like a stat of 0, 1025 a stat of 1, etc.

Ah, that's interesting. This might be a nice addition to our under-construction Sharking page.

1) Selfdestruct and Explosion damage should be 260 and 340 respectively, not 275 and 350. Azure's numbers are too high, you can do some damage trials and it will be noticeable.

Well, naturally I have done some... not a massive #, though. I could buy that they're slightly high.

In addition, the numbers 260 and 340 is exactly equal to the numbers Necrosaro ripped out of the ROM, times TWO.

Hey, good observation. I've wondered how he went wrong there. AHHHH, the light just dawned.

I've been looking at the place in RAM where the current attack being used is stored. All in a row are the Name/Effect/Power/Type/Accuracy/Max PP. Power for Explosion and Selfdestruct are indeed as Necro reported. But the Effect spot only contains a number code, which is obviously a reference to a routine stored in the ROM. So for Gust it's 00 (nothing special). For Blizzard and Ice Beam it's, oh I forget now, 05 or something. And for Explosion and Selfdestruct I think it's 07. Now obviously routine 07 includes some instruction to make the user faint upon attacking, but it could also easily contain an instruction to double the damage (or Power value, which would be roughly the same thing).

2) Already Azure has updated the Lower Special rate of Psychic to 40%.

It's going to be updated again. I've since done 740 trials on Psychic alone: 33.92% lowered Special.

However I dunno if any other moves like this have been altered. I have enough data to show that Bubble and Aurora Beam both have side-effect rates between 30 and 40% (but not the exact rate) without a doubt (totaling maybe 400 trials between all the moves).

That could very well be. I think you've shown me that data... I'd like to see about 400 trials for each move individually, though. Not that I'm asking you to do them all! But my Psychic experience has only made me more distrustful of smaller sample sizes.

In addition I think Fire Blast has the same chance to burn as Psychic does to lower special (closer to 40%, not what Azure says as 30%).

Hmm. For that one I've only got 100 trials. I could buy that it was 33%, dunno about 40.

Maybe all these type of moves have variable side-effect rate, and the formula is given by Wintermute's CH formula (Base Speed / 2) / 256.....except that you must replace Base Speed in the formula by (128 + Base Speed / 2).

Maybe. But damn, I've done a couple thousand trials all told, looking for just that sort of relationship, and nothing turns up systematically. Oh well, we can always keep looking.


From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dan and the Kirbys
Farting Nudist
Member # 221

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posted 04-29-2000 12:13 PM      Profile for Dan and the Kirbys     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Porcupine:

1) Selfdestruct and Explosion damage should be 260 and 340 respectively, not 275 and 350. Azure's numbers are too high, you can do some damage trials and it will be noticeable. In addition, the numbers 260 and 340 is exactly equal to the numbers Necrosaro ripped out of the ROM, times TWO (look on his attacks for Blue/Red...NOT Gold/Silver as the data for that is different).

260/340 is what Stadium says too...

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/('.')\ Beware the Kirbys...


Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
Farting Nudist
Member # 46

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posted 05-01-2000 04:26 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ya, I keep doing trials to try to determine if there is SLIGHT (it would have to be slight) speed dependence on side-effect rates for Fire Blast, Bubble, Psychic, etc. It's hard, esp because I even predict the dependence to be so slight. But it is weird that a side-effect would occur 33.92% right? That's not a nice number...is it even a nice computer number? No it's not, 33.92% = 87/256 yuck.

Are you being careful to always use the same species of pokemon when you test side-effect rates for Psychic, etc? Which pokemon do u use?

You're right I showed you most of my data before, but the Bubble one is new, here it is:

Bubble 30 PP
(on Charizard)
Lower Speed Accuracy: 27/70 = 38.6%
(on Lickitung)
Lower Speed Accuracy: 35/98 = 35.7%

(by coincidence my Bubble data for Charizard is the exact same as Aurora Beam on Mewtwo)

My Lickitung data is higher than I'd predict, but with only 98 trials it's not the end of the world. At least it is lower than the Charizard data.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
Farting Nudist
Member # 46

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posted 05-01-2000 04:29 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey all you guys are reading the RAM data (Wintermute, KittyFox, Meowth376, etc)! How do you do that?

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
NeoSyrex
Farting Nudist
Member # 52

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posted 05-01-2000 04:41 PM      Profile for NeoSyrex   Author's Homepage   Email NeoSyrex   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
These are the numbers I found on TeamPA's Gold/Silver damage page:
9.8%
19.9%
29.7%
39.8%
49.6%
99.6%

They are obviously the % of effects occuring, and these numbers are what we should use (unless they were changed in Gold/Silver). And by the way, Toby, I'm almost positive that "07" for the chance of an effect occuring means that the attack's effect always occurs (ie. Explosion always fainting the user, even if it misses, unlike) under normal conditions (not like in R/B/Y if use Explosion on a sub). I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hyper Beam was given an "07" for its effect of recharge in Stadium.

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NeoSyrex™
[ NeoSyrex@hotmail.com ]

[This message has been edited by NeoSyrex (edited 05-01-2000).]


From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
Farting Nudist
Member # 46

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posted 05-01-2000 08:09 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey NeoSyrex! I've been looking at the garbled TeamPA Japanese pages! =D I was wondering what some of those numbers were for!

NeoSyrex, Wintermute...yup I was well aware of how Necrosaro ripped out his data, the way Wintermute writes it is what I've thought all along. I've also e-mailed Necrosaro a few times to ask some questions about his lists.

NeoSyrex, the way side-effect rates occur in Gold/Silver IS completely different than in Blue/Red. I knew this from long ago because Necrosaro's ROM-ripped movelist data for Gold/Silver contains different data for each move than in Blue/Red. Go check out his movelist to see what I mean. In Gold/Silver, each attack has a data corresponding to its side-effect rate explicitly stored as a number (equal to TeamPAs values). In Blue/Red, there isn't even a data spot for such a value. It's not there. So in Blue/Red, the side-effect rate of each move is built in to those values that Wintermute talks about (the 05 and 07 etc). For example, 05 would mean Freeze with 10% chance of occuring, all combined in one data value. In Gold/Silver, there would be two datas for that move, maybe a number that means Freeze, and a number that says "25" for 25/256 = 9.8%. This also means that the number (05 07 etc) are NOT the same for Blue/Red and Gold/Silver. 05 might mean Freeze in Blue but Lowers Attack in Gold.

The 07 for Explosion in Blue/Red has to explicitly contain ALL the relevant information to Explosion. So it means not only attacks effect always occurs, but it plain out contains all the effects of Explosion, ie you kill yourself, attack does double damage of normal attacks, etc.

I did some research in Gold/Silver to try to determine if side-effect rates had some speed or other dependence regardless of the fact that the ROM data itself lists a specified side-effect rate for each move (unlike in Blue/Red). I didn't come up with anything conclusive though.


If I trust my senses though I got while playing through Gold/Silver (which apparently were right regarding the lowered effectiveness of Sand-Attack and other stat altering moves), something is definitely up with the side-effect rates. They are not just what is listed (10%, 30%) by TeamPA or Necrosaro's ROM movelist data. While I was playing with my Bakufuun, I burned the CRAP out of everybody who didn't die in one hit, many many times. But after I am at the end of the game, I tested my Bakufuun again against the end boss Ash, again and again (Ash is like the only guy who doesn't always die in 1 hit to my L100 Bakufuun), and Ash only burned rarely (10%). Oh well....my imagination maybe, as I was playing through the game....

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Givera
Farting Nudist
Member # 234

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posted 05-06-2000 09:36 PM      Profile for Givera   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You pointed out S.Destruct and Explosion damage is double what Necrosaro printed... that's because 260 & 340 are both long integers (two bytes) rather than regular integers (one byte). They are the only two attacks that go over 255 so obviously it would be easier for them to add a special side-script for those two attacks to double damage and faint the attacker rather than change the format for every attack to handle two bytes - If they changed the format it would waste A LOT of space (1 byte for every other attack)
-Givera

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"My staff is complaining about the rats in the kitchen; I want to hire a new staff" -Lunchlady Doris on how to spend the School's oil money
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From: Plano, Tx | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 05-06-2000 09:43 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Givera:
They are the only two attacks that go over 255 so obviously it would be easier for them to add a special side-script for those two attacks to double damage and faint the attacker rather than change the format for every attack to handle two bytes...

Hey, that makes a lot of sense.

Who's a clever lad, now?

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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