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Author Topic: Critical Hits and Reflect/Light Screen
Slo Migs
Farting Nudist
Member # 110

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posted 04-23-2000 08:21 PM      Profile for Slo Migs   Author's Homepage   Email Slo Migs   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, I know that critical hits negate all the effects of stat modifying moves like Amnesia and Harden, but how do they effect those one-time use moves like Reflect and Light screen which double the defense and special defense respectively?

For example, Player A has a Starmie and Player B has a Victreebel.
Starmie uses Light Screen
Victreebel uses Razor Leaf and it Critical Hits.

Would the damage done by Razor leaf in this scenario be the same or smaller than if Starmie had not done Light Screen in the first place?

I ask this because I wanna know if I should bother putting up reflect against Slash equipped opponents

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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
MewtwoSama
Asshole
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posted 04-23-2000 08:31 PM      Profile for MewtwoSama   Author's Homepage   Email MewtwoSama   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Critical hits also ignore those one time defense moves as well.

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From: Abyss of Evil | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Keibu
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posted 04-25-2000 06:25 PM      Profile for Keibu     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dont do reflect and light screen reduce the damage you get by half instead of doubling your defense?

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From: Madrid, Spain | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Slo Migs
Farting Nudist
Member # 110

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posted 04-25-2000 06:57 PM      Profile for Slo Migs   Author's Homepage   Email Slo Migs   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh yeah, you're right Keibu. My mistake.

Arrghh I hate semantics!! I have to double check every word I say around here.

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"It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Then it's just fun"


From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 04-25-2000 07:59 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Keibu:
Dont do reflect and light screen reduce the damage you get by half instead of doubling your defense?

Well, pretty much...but who knows what's really happening in the code, since that would do roughly the same thing.

Actually, maybe Wintermute knows, but I'm not sure if he ever figured out exactly where the 50% is applied in the forumla.

Either way, I think it's easier to think of things as 50% off.

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From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 04-28-2000 09:15 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. K, according to unreliable research I did VERY long ago, the Light Screen/Reflect 50% is applied in a different yet part of the BDF.

In other words, not where Barrier would go, nor where "Fire not very effective against Water" would go. But a 50% damage reduction overall nontheless. I came across this by doing tons of damage tests using various VERY WEAK attacks, to find the tiny errors in what we would expect to be the damage formula.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
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posted 04-30-2000 01:37 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In other words, not where Barrier would go, nor where "Fire not very effective against Water"

Where else could it go? The formula we have now is binomial, so the two places you describe are the only places I can see to put it.


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
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posted 04-30-2000 04:46 AM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In the new formula, I'm basically sure that it works right at the D variable. But that's AT, not ON. I've looked at the RAM location for Defense of the pokemon in battle, and it doesn't double when Reflect is used (as it does when Barrier is used).

There's some other evidence that Reflect and LS don't double D (heh heh) directly. For one thing, if LS worked that way, it would be increasing Special, which would mean your attacks would do more.

I'm also basically sure (b/c of examining good data from several different combat scenarios, that Critical Hits work at the A variable. Not ON, I don't think, because I've checked the Level location in the RAM, before, during, and after a CH (though if A really doubled, it would obviously be transitory, and perhaps too fast for me to catch. Anyway, that's how it works out mathematically.


From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 05-01-2000 04:09 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By "new formula" are you talking about the BDF currently on Azure Heights? I guess so.

Here is some new info! I haven't done more testing yet since Friday (I am about to), but I did discover some things analyzing my old damage data on paper.

White Cat, Wintermute, I believe there is a 3rd spot in what would be a corrected damage formula. I have no idea what it'd look like though, possibly being related to the damage variance mathematically somehow. Here's why:

Slash 20 PP
Damage: 98 - 115
Average Damage: 106.5
Damage Variance: 16%
99,110,115,98,99,108,109,106,106,105,108,104,100,103,102,100,110,103,108

Sky Attack 5 PP
Damage: 102 - 119
Average Damage: 110.5
Damage Variance: 16%
102,207x2,105,102,105,111,107,110,117,104,114,229x2,112,119,112

Slash does 70 damage, but x2 with CH. Sky Attack does 140 damage. So by the BDF they should do exactly equal damage. I don't have a lot of data, but I do have enough to show the range of damages accurately for these attacks, since they show up statistically as 16% which is a lot (rarely does the damage vary more than this, and if you use too little data the damage variance is always lower).

Sky Attack damage is exactly 4 points more than Slash (CH)!! Even 1 or 2 points difference is important if we want an exact BDF, and 4 points is quite a LOT.

It could be that because Sky Attack is a 2-turn attack it's data is somehow altered slightly, however I don't believe this to be the case. To be sure, someone (maybe me but I have to test other stuff first) should test Karate Chop vs Earthquake, or something. You wouldn't need a ton of data, just enough to show the full range of damages for each attack (16% or 17% probably).

Also, I've been writing all this time about how Light Screen/Reflect also operate on a 3rd location in the BDF which needs to be discovered. Sorry, I never recorded my data showing (without a doubt) the differences in damage between LS and Amnesia (and Not Very Effective also). I only remember that I tested with Fire Spin, since it does such low damage. With a weak attack like that the difference in damages between LS and Amnesia was VERY apparent (I think it was L100 pokemons with equal stats against each other, no 1.5x bonus). Maybe I will test again.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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