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Author Topic: Snorlax + 3 amnesias = ?
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
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posted 03-29-2000 05:05 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does Snorlax's Special max out to 999 like everyone else who uses it? Or does it stay at 912 as seems to be the case?

And I was pretty sure that Special was Doubled with each use of Amnesia, as in cumulatively. I know research says otherwise, but how is this conclusion arrived at?

Dang it! I hate Slowbro now.

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If I had a Snorlax, I'd use him as a Bed


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
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posted 03-29-2000 05:55 PM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
it only doubles the first time. every time it adds 100% of the original stat. and this can be proven by simple testing.

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-Atomic Mew


Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
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posted 03-29-2000 08:31 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am aware of how Amnesia is thought to work.

"simple testing"? Explain

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If I had a Snorlax, I'd use him as a Bed


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
AtomicMew
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posted 03-29-2000 09:35 PM      Profile for AtomicMew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 10,000Lb.Snorlax:
I am aware of how Amnesia is thought to work.

"simple testing"? Explain


ok this is what i did.
got a level 100 dragonite and lvl 100 mewtwo.
record damage done to dragonite w/o amnesia by mewtwo using psychic.
record damage done w/ 1 amnesia.
record damage done w/ 2 amnesia.
you can see how amnesia affects special.
see? simple.

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-Atomic Mew


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Mr. K
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posted 03-31-2000 12:49 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yep, Snorlax maxes out at 912 Special.

As for the testing, Toby does zillions of tests, usually with his friend Wintermute the Porygon.

In this case, I expect he would run a few tests to determine Mute's average damage to a victim (or perhaps have someone else attack Mute and allow him to Recover). Then someone uses Amnesia and the new value is checked against that. He probably doesn't have to do much testing at this point to figure the different between a simple doubling adding max Special to a running Special total.

(The reason he doesn't have to test much is that he has run zillions of tests with his BDF and knows that it's really close to being correct.)

Anyway, I'm doing the talking for him at this point, but you can get some insight into his style of testing by reading the Evade/Accuracy page: http://azureheights.com/attacks/comp/evacc.htm

A page on Statistic modifying is in the works.

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Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 04-03-2000 03:34 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Huh? How does maxing out of stats work? Why would Snorlax max out at 912 Special when Azure Heights says most pokemon max out stats at 999?

I myself discovered maxing out long ago, and I only did one test to investigate it: I used Gameshark codes to cheat and set my pokemon's stats arbitrarily high...I found that if I set any stat to 1024 or above the game would not display the number properly, and in battle it would act as though I had a really crappy stat instead of the number I gave it. I also found that anything 1023 or below would function properly and I would be buff. So I always assumed but never tested specifically that stats would max at 1023.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
SpaceDog
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posted 04-03-2000 04:27 PM      Profile for SpaceDog     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1023 makes sense. After all, it is one of the "magic" numbers that nearly fit on the line y=2^X. (like 255, 15, etc.)

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From: Laurel, MD | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 04-03-2000 09:54 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Snorlax maxes out at 912 because he can only do Amnesia 3 times. 912 is based on his max Special.

Remember that statistic-modifying attacks not only have the max stat limit, they have max usage limits too, usually 3 or 6.

As for 999 vs. 1023, I haven't done the testing myself, but by sharking some max stats on a Mewtwo, it ought to be simple to test.

Not sure Wintermute hasn't already done that, in fact.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
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posted 04-04-2000 02:14 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why did they put max uses in there if they already had a ceiling limit of 999? It just screws my snorlax out of 78 points of special. Also.. If you have 912 special, and psychic loweres your special, and then you use amnesia again, your special would be at 999, right?

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If I had a Snorlax, I'd use him as a Bed


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
MewtwoSama
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posted 04-04-2000 02:55 PM      Profile for MewtwoSama   Author's Homepage   Email MewtwoSama   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, well if Snorlax's special was at 4x (912) then dropped via Psychic to 3.5 (798)

After Snorlax using Amnesia it should get a full 1x boost to 4.5 (1026)

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MewtwoSama
A viscous,Psychic Pokemon that was created by a scientist after years of horrific gene splicing and DNA engineering experiments. It's DNA is almost the same as MEW's. However, it's size and disposition are vastly different. It's cold, glowing eyes strike fear into it's enemies.

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From: Abyss of Evil | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
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posted 04-04-2000 07:31 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is an interesting thread! I had wondered before about the significance of 999. After all, without a Shark the game will never display a value greater than 703 for HP (Chansey) or 458 for A/D/S/S (Cloyster's Defense). So displaying a digit in the 4th place isn't the limiting factor. Also, we know that the game code is actually written with hexadecimal numerals, not decimal, and 999 has no special significance at all in hex (that I know of).

At any rate, Mr.K is right that a simple test is needed. I took a Nidoqueen with a Speed of 251 and a Jolteon with a Speed of 252 and taught them both Agility. If the limit is 1023 (or higher), after 3 uses of Agility 'Queen should have had a Speed of 1004, the Jolteon a Speed of 1008.

When I actually did this, however, Jolteon did not consistently win the initiative: they each won a few rounds, which is what happens when Speed is equal. Also, the Nido was able to affect Jolteon with a 1-hit KO, which should have been impossible if the Jolteon was faster.

Strictly speaking, this is not proof that the Speed of both pokemon was 999. It only shows that through the use of Agility they both hit a ceiling, forcing their previously-unequal Speeds to become equal.

However, if you take a Jolteon with a Speed of 332, it can use Agility 3 times. But a Jolteon with a Speed of 333 can only use Agility twice: the 3rd and subsequent attempts will report that, "Nothing happened!".

I think these results offer a convincing argument that the ceiling on Speed (and presumably Attack, Defense, and Special) is 999.

A few replies to the rest of the thread...

AtomicMew: The test you describe is sound in principle, but remember that for physical and special attacks damage is variable (moreso as the damage increases), so a careful test would involve doing repeated trials and finding the average damage for each increment of Special.

Porcupine: You're right that Shark-induced (yet still meaningful) values can exceed 999, but I think that's a separate issue than what the game allows in normal play. Interesting that you found 1024 to be the limit, though... obviously it's 2^10, but like 999, it doesn't require an extra byte to store in hexadecimal. But I'm certainly no programmer: maybe there are other relevant issues.

SpaceDog: You're right [though I think you mean y = (2^x)-1]. But again, I'm not sure what relevance that has to writing code using hex.

10,000Lb.Snorlax: I'm not sure why the limits are the way they are (i.e. why your Snorlax gets screwed). Maybe it has something to do with the original designers' hilarious concept of "game balance".

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From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 04-05-2000 01:03 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Very nice. I had wondered what the ceiling was myself.

Nice job, thank you.

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 04-05-2000 01:40 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's another possible test: using a Shark, set the Speed (or any other stat, basically) to the values 999, 1000, 1023, 1024, and 1025. In the first case, if the limit is 999 and you set it to that, you should have maximum Speed. However, if you set it to 1000, the Speed should "wrap around" to either 0 or -1000. So if your Pokemon is super-fast at 999 and super-slow at 1000, we'll know that the limit is 999.
From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 04-05-2000 02:05 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that'd test a theoretical maximum for a statistic, but that might have nothing to do with the phenomenon of statistic-altering moves maxing out at 999.

And since no Pokemon can legitimately have a stat of 999 or over, it doesn't really mean anything to the typical player.

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From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 04-06-2000 08:21 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lots of pokemon can have stats of 999 - 1023 when boosted...so it is important to know which it is, a little, maybe.

White Cat, what you describe is EXACTLY the test that I did with a Gameshark, and I found that the max stat is 1023 that way.

However, that way of testing is not the best way. It could be that even taking that into account, the game itself also limits the max stat to 999. A test like what Wintermute described is the best, I think. I never did any testing like that. Later on maybe I will test again, in a month maybe. I'm still taking my "testing break" from pokemon hehe.

Oh ya, that's why Snorlax max Special is 912. Foolish me, hehe.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 04-07-2000 04:01 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Porcupine:
Lots of pokemon can have stats of 999 - 1023 when boosted...so it is important to know which it is, a little, maybe.

What do you mean by "when boosted"? Do you mean when hacked by a GS? I'm sure you can break lots of rules by hacking...

...but if you mean by stat-altering moves, I believe they all max out at 999. If you've got a counter-example, we'd like to see it.

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Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Givera
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posted 04-10-2000 06:23 PM      Profile for Givera   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought I'd add what I know to your current research... Porcupine stated that stats above 1023 act as though they were really weak stats. However I leant my friend my gameshark one time and he set all his stats to FFFFh (65535) and when we battled his stats didn't seem all that weak to me (He fried my near perfect Mewtwos and Dragonites w/ T.Shock). When combined with your information of stats over 1023 acting wierd that led me to think after 1024 the stats reset to 0 i.e. 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, etc... 1022=1022, 1023=1023, 1024=0, 1025=1, etc... 2047=1023, 2048=0, 2049=1, etc... Using this idea 65535 would equal 1023. Interesting... After looking at this more I came to think (If you know binary & hexadecimal you'll understand) maybe the first several (high order) bits are ignored and always treated as 0. I'll try to explain more... 1023 = 3FFh = 0000 0011 1111 1111b. What I think is possible is whenever the game retrieves stat information it bitmasks the number with AND 1023 thus making the largest possible stat 1023. It would be impossible to bitmask 999 in hexadecimal/binary as it has no logical interpretation in either (3E7h & 0000 0011 1110 0111b).
Also, snorlax cannot amnesia 3x, be psychiced and have his special dropped, and amnesia again to raise his special to 999 heres why: The game uses 1 byte (or .5 bytes??) for each stat (excluding HP) and 1 for accuracy for each pokemon (10 in total). These bytes can each have 13 different values:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1/4 1/3.5 1/3 1/2.5 1/2 1/1.5 1 1.5 2 2.5 3 3.5 4
All values start at 6 (1x) and move from there... if a move GREATLY affects a stat (S.Dance, Amnesia, Screech) it moves 2 spots in the appropriate direction (Left for decrease right for increase). If a move DOES NOT GREATLY affect the stat (Growl, TailWhip, Meditate) it moves only 1 spot. Heres an example of such a use:
Snorlax used Amnesia (6+2=8 (2x Special))
Snorlax used Amnesia (8+2=10 (3x Special))
Snorlax used Amnesia (10+2=12 (4x Special))
Mewtwo used Psychic (12-1=11 (3.5x Special))
Snorlax used Amnesia (11+2=*12* (4x) Special))
Yes 11+2 should equal 13 but that is not a possible value so his special is forced to max out at 228x4=912 not 228x4.5=999(1026). I hope this did not confuse anyone too much.
P.S. Spacedog - the magic formula is Y=(2^X)-1
-Givera

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[This message has been edited by Givera (edited 04-10-2000).]


From: Plano, Tx | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 04-11-2000 09:53 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. K, ya I meant by stat-altering moves. Wintermute's test is better than mine, so for
now I'll believe that they really max out at 999. Eventually though I'll probably test for myself to make sure.

By cheating stats directly though, the max stat is 1023 like I wrote above, I think.

Givera, yup that is how it works I think.

About the Snorlax having his special dropped by Psychic though, I think he CAN use Amnesia to raise it back up to 912 (or whatever it should be). It won't go back up all the way but it'll go back to his max. I tested this before, long ago. But I could be wrong cause sometimes my "long ago" tests are figments of my imagination, or I screwed something up, hehe.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 04-11-2000 09:55 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops! Givera I re-read your post a little better. What I wrote is the same as what you said. Sorry! =D

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 04-12-2000 02:41 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Cool.

As far as interpreting stats go, the AND with 1023 sounds as plausible as anything I've heard yet (more so, it's fast). However, Wintermute clearly showed that when using stat boosts it is maxed at 999 (the Jolteon test).Are you sure that Psychic only gives a -1 and not a -2? It seems to screw special...

Hope I didn't misread anything, I'm sorta
tired...

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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