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Author Topic: Gosh, Stadium is so exciting the pokemon don't want to sleep!
cfalcon
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posted 03-10-2000 05:11 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've done quite a few (10<X<20) trials of Sleep moves (Hypnosis, Sleep Powder, and Spore, with one Lovely Kiss thrown in), with the sleep roll never once going above 3 (normally it's 1-7, now it looks like 1-3). I can't say if it's a flat distribution (to small of a sample), but I'm willing to bet my left nut that it can't go above three.

Because type Grass was overpowered?
To give Mewtwo a fair chance?
Parasect was overused?
Grass/Poison actually had a slim chance in battle, and it was intended that they die in one quick hit?
For the same reason Substitute was pumped up in two directions?

Anyone notice that almost every balance change in Stadium helps out Mewtwo?

Seems dumb, huh?

We need to document all the Stadium mods, and also see if 1hit KOs can break sub now. That would be fair, but I doubt it. Maybe they don't have any effect [grumbles].

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 03-10-2000 08:27 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On a similar note, I have used Rest extensively and it has always been exactly 3 turns of sleep, just like in RBY.

Another rumor accepted as fact that seems to just be untrue.

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Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
MewtwoSama
Asshole
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posted 03-10-2000 11:43 AM      Profile for MewtwoSama   Author's Homepage   Email MewtwoSama   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One hit KO's do work on Subs.
All they do is break them.

My poor Eggy had its sub broken, but a new one was up in no time.

But I really agree about this Sleep thing. My opponents hardly ever sleep for enough time for me to set things up. Plus they wake up often right away.

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MewtwoSama
It was created by a scientist after years of horrific gene splicing and DNA engineering experiments. It's DNA is almost the same as MEW's. However, it's size and disposition are vastly different.

ICQ: 45770183
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E-mail: mewtwo@ureach.com

Mew! Meow! Grrrrr!

The key to a good offense is a strong defense

Ethics are stupid, they only get in the way of winning


From: Abyss of Evil | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 03-10-2000 01:45 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

The variable round sleep wasn't a rumor: it was an outright lie in the instruction manual (along with ghost being super effective against psychic in the original manuals). But I haven't seen it do anything other than 3, so I'm guessing it was either a typo or something specific to Japanese Yellow (we should test that to be sure: it would be wierd if we had different rule sets).

I simply can't believe the changes they've made to Stadium. I always thought that 1-7 (flat) was a dumb distribution, and that it would be more like 1-6, with 1 and 6 showing up very infrequently. 1-3 is the stupidest thing I ever heard of: a third of the time it's as if you had never used it in the first place. The odds of getting at least on free attack with Sleep powder were 6/7 (the odds of not rolling a one) times .75 (the odds of hitting), which yielded around 64%. Now, assuming flat distribution, it's 2/3 * .75 = 50%- you are just as likely to be better off doing the move as not. The only thing that makes it worthwhile now is the fact that 25% of the time you will gain back one move, and 25% of the time you will gain back two (the odds of them rolling a 2 or 3, respectively).

I could be wrong with these odds, and we'll need more data to know for sure, but since sleep was the only decent way to deal with Mewtwo, this is very unfortunate. Add to this the new rule about multiple sleeps (which is completely unnecessary, now that they have changed the functioning of the move: I thought that rules were considered inviolate, which is why they danced around them).

Here's a good one: lead with someone with rest who can take a hit. Use Rest, then switch him out and see if your other monsters aren't now immune to sleep...

PP wasting may be the only real way left to take out Mewtwo. Heck, he's already immune to sleep and freeze (sub). It may also be possible to paralyze him (Electrode), but that only saps away 1/4 of attacks (did that used to be 1/2? For some reason I always thought so... I used to get a bunch of consecutive "fully paralyzed" in a row...)

Stadium's new rules are pretty gay...


-cfalcon, still wishing maximum speed to Gold/Silver, where rough balance still seems possible...

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
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posted 03-10-2000 03:07 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My experience jibes with yours, guys: both on Rest and enemy-induced SLP. The Metallic games do seem to have the potential to open things up a little. Maybe the idea behind the Stadium changes was to make people thirsty for a game in which that bastard Mewtwo will get some payback.

cfalcon, I think PAR used to prevent attacks on 1 out of 3 rounds. I find it plausible that it's changed... sometimes when one of my PAR opponents fails to attack, I'm actually surprised. It was getting to the point where I thought the only purpose of Thunder Wave was to slow the victim down.

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From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
MewtwoSama
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posted 03-10-2000 03:37 PM      Profile for MewtwoSama   Author's Homepage   Email MewtwoSama   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
...It was getting to the point where I thought the only purpose of Thunder Wave was to slow the victim down.


They dont stay slowed down!

If your Poke is Paralyzed, you can switch out and remove the speed reduction, but still remain paralyzed.

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MewtwoSama
It was created by a scientist after years of horrific gene splicing and DNA engineering experiments. It's DNA is almost the same as MEW's. However, it's size and disposition are vastly different.

ICQ: 45770183
AIM: MewtwoSama
E-mail: mewtwo@ureach.com

Mew! Meow! Grrrrr!

The key to a good offense is a strong defense

Ethics are stupid, they only get in the way of winning


From: Abyss of Evil | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
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posted 03-10-2000 07:28 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WHAT?! MewtwoSama are u sure?

Are you talking about Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow, or Pokemon Stadium, when you said that switching a Parazlyed pokemon removes his speed reduction?

I wonder about the attack reduction from Burn...

BTW cfalcon, I don't think that Sleep is a flat distribution from 1-7 in Blue/Red. I did some testing and it showed that there is roughly a 70% chance each turn for the pokemon to continue Sleeping, up til the maximum of 7 turns when he will automatically wake up. This means pokemon are slightly more likely to wake up earlier than later, and a pokemon will wake up after 1 turn much more often than he will wake up after 7 turns.

BTW, in Gold/Silver Paralyze fully paralyzes a LOOOT more often. It's crippling!! In Blue/Red it seemed to fully paralyze 1 in 4 times, maybe 1 in 3 at best....

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
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posted 03-10-2000 10:04 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by Porcupine:
Are you talking about Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow, or Pokemon Stadium, when you said that switching a Parazlyed pokemon removes his speed reduction?

Huh. I assume he means Stadium, but now that I think of it I'm not sure it's anything I've ever checked in RBY.

BTW cfalcon, I don't think that Sleep is a flat distribution from 1-7 in Blue/Red. I did some testing and it showed that there is roughly a 70% chance each turn for the pokemon to continue Sleeping, up til the maximum of 7 turns when he will automatically wake up.

Have you seen our Sleep page Porcupine? I've done quite a few trials, and found that the distribution was virtually flat. Or at any rate, the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds definitely had their fair share.

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From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 03-10-2000 11:46 PM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The amount of turns that a Poke will be asleep (or confused) is set at the time the status change occurs. You can prove this with an emulator. Put the enemy to sleep, do a "quicksave," then play out the fight several times. The enemy will always wake up after the same number of turns.
From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 03-11-2000 12:46 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is actually a "status byte". One bit means you are frozen, another means paralyzed, etc. There are three reserved for sleep in the gameboy version: if you set all three on (111, which is binary for 7), you lose 7 rounds, if set it to 001 you wake up on your next round ("sleep for one round" means you see "it woke up").

I can promise you that sleep is not evaluated every round. I know for certain that it is determined at the start of a sleep attack (unless they are REALLY screwing with us), and is decremented every round. When it reaches zero, you "wake up". If it is zero at the start of the round, you get your attack normally.

However, this number could be determined along a curve, for instance, rolling ones's and sevens occasionally, and most of the time hitting in the middle. This isn't the case in my experience, but it was a possibility. It is also a possibility in Stadium, but I suspect that they simply made the MSB of that 3 bit sleep number always zero so that it really is a two bit counter now...

White Cat just said basically the same thing with less words.

White Cat, is your name a Mewtwo reference or an F-Zero X one?

And is everyone certain you can remove the speed reduction by switching out? I have a few cases contrary to that in recent memory, but I could have been thinking wrong...


-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 03-12-2000 05:01 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the One Sleep rule is fair in RBY play, but, yeah, it does kinda suck in Stadium.

Anyone know if the computer just prevents the second Sleep from happening or if it causes a disqualification.

I hate Lapras in that game so much, I was considering a strategy of just trying to get 2 Pokemon frozen to make the computer lose.

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Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 03-12-2000 05:38 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

I'm pretty sure it just doesn't work [In Stadium, regarding sleep moves and freeze moves]... that's what the Nintendo guy said during tournament...

I think the disqualify is only if it happens in R/B/Y...

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Avalanche
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posted 03-14-2000 12:04 AM      Profile for Avalanche   Author's Homepage   Email Avalanche   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Atually, you're right. I used one spore, he switched, and I used spore 7 times to no effect. He was not double teamed, so that couldn't of mattered. By the way, Mega Drain, LeechLife, and the like do not work against Substitutes.( My Parasect can't even kill a lousy Abra now!!! I hate that attack)

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From: Catherdral City, CA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rolken
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posted 03-14-2000 10:31 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why on earth did they give more power to M2?

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The new millennium doesn't begin until 2001!


From: Provo, UT | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 03-15-2000 09:43 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I couldn't even BEGIN to tell you...

So few things will kill it now...

On the bright side, you don't get any recoil from breaking (possibly hitting) a substitute either, so the best Mewtwo killer may actully be Wigglytuff now, as Double Edge is to him as Hyper Beam is to most, plus he wouldn't be taking recoil damage, and I'm pretty confident (need to test, but I couldn't see how it wouldn't work) that he can break Mewtwo's sub in one hit.

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 03-15-2000 02:12 PM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
White Cat, is your name a Mewtwo reference or an F-Zero X one?

It actually refers to Speedy from Samurai Pizza Cat (or Yattaro from Kyatto Ninden Teyandee, as you prefre). He wears white armour.

I don't think Mewtwo looks white...


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
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posted 03-15-2000 05:23 PM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
cfalcon- Wouldn't Snorlax be better than Wigglytuff? Higher attack with more hitpoints. And they'd both be attacking second anyway. It's not like I'm partial to Snorlaxs or anything

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If I had a Snorlax, I'd use him as a Bed


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 03-15-2000 05:32 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Hmm... the value in question would be Special times Hitpoints...
So Snorlax comes out way ahead...

Wiggly:
483*198=95634
Snorlax:
523*228=119244

So Snorlax is 1.25 times as good as Wiggly at taking damage from Special attacks...

His max attack is 318, while Wiggly's is 238... Wow...

Yea, Snorlax is a lot better with this.

Good call. I just may go grab one now...

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged


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