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Author Topic: Extra details will be necessary soon...
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 03-02-2000 12:55 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It would seem that moves are being changed around in Statdium, and we all know about the changes in Gold/Silver, so...

Each generation of pokemon has changed the rules slightly. Nintendo actually documents (!) that Blizzard's chance of freezing "changes by 10%" in yellow (higher? lower? final value? Initial value? Thanks, Big N), and that Rest now sleeps for 1-3 rounds.

I highly doubt they will document *ANY* move changes for Stadium, and they probably won't for Metallics, either (is bite type evil now?). My Gyrados is sucking because he didn't get a PHYSICAL attack? Gee, why would Gyrados want one of those? Guess I'll keep using tackle for a while...

The net effect will probably be that there will be three catagories of moves (the Yellow changes are minor, and there might be just the two of them). In the future, they might even different rules for whatever pokemon stadium works with metallics (3jp/2us).

This looks to me as if, eventually, the moves will have to be updated to reflect the change (probably just the ones modified, of course).

Big questions:

Does double team change in Stadium (need oodles of data)?

Is accuracy of 99.6% now a different concept (aka 100%)? in order to test this, someone has to see swift miss.

Especially in light of the reported instance of Fissure hitting Alakazam, a lot more data has to be collected.


yay.

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
Farting Nudist
Member # 46

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posted 03-02-2000 02:53 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are type Evil attacks really Special based? I am surprised because Bite used to be Physical.

If so, then Hellgar Dog can kick the shit out of Mewtwo. Finally, complete destruction of that fool is at hand!

I haven't seen 100% moves miss yet in Gold/Silver, but they might still.

Just teach your Gyrados some TM hehe.

Maybe that Alakazam was screwed up or his enemy had a Speed booster in place.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 03-03-2000 01:57 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We still don't even know a lot of things about RBY moves!

quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
Rest now sleeps for 1-3 rounds.

Has anyone seen this happen?

I know I spent forever catching Snorlaxen in my Yellow game his Resting always (as far as I can remember) took 3 turns and Toby just tested Rest in Colosseum2 and came up with the same results.

I've also played Colosseum1 games vs. Yellow carts and Rest has always (when it's worked) taken 3 turns.

Anyone seen it take less than 3? What were the circumstances?

quote:
Is accuracy of 99.6% now a different concept (aka 100%)? in order to test this, someone has to see swift miss.

Well, Swift is a special case, so I don't know what you're getting at there, but we're not entirely sure that something like Harden, for example, is really 99,6% accurate.

That's still something in the testing phase.

Toby has found some odd data recently that needs to be sorted out.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 03-03-2000).]


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
10,000Lb.Snorlax
loves long time.
Member # 13

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posted 03-03-2000 11:29 AM      Profile for 10,000Lb.Snorlax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That rest thing only happens in Yellow's Tournament 2 mode and only works against another yellow game pak. It doesn't apply in the real game itself.

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If I had a Snorlax, I'd use him as a Bed


From: Denver | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
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posted 03-03-2000 02:35 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My understanding on the rest issue is inline with 10k# Snorlax: You would have to have a yellow-on-yellow battle using the coloseum II feature.

However, if Toby just tested that, and found that it didn't work, it would just mean yet another error in the game manual. Maybe it was true in Japanese Yellow?

Mr. K:
I said we would have to see swift miss because if they were going to correct any case, swift would be the first one (presumably). Apparently, a roll is made, and, if < the accuracy (255), a hit is scored. However, this probably isn't the only thing involved for certain non-combat moves, as you and Toby are finding. Might there be another set of rules concerning stat modifiers?

I suppose seeing psychic miss someone with no DTs up in Stadium would serve just as well as seeing swift miss.

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
Racist
Member # 2

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posted 03-03-2000 05:32 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
You would have to have a yellow-on-yellow battle using the coloseum II feature.

However, if Toby just tested that, and found that it didn't work, it would just mean yet another error in the game manual.


Yeah, that's why I asked if anyone's ever seen it happen. It's widely regarded to be true amongst us Internet geeks, but if no one's ever really seen it happen, maybe it's just another rumor...

You said Nintendo made the claim? Where did they say that? Maybe there's some chance of contacting them? (Altho that would take all the fun out of it.)

quote:
I said we would have to see swift miss because if they were going to correct any case, swift would be the first one (presumably).

Oh, I see. Well, I never thought of the 255/256 thing to be an error. I always thought it was one of those "well, in battle anything can happen" things, and was that way by design. Something else is definitely going on with Swift, but since we don't know where the modification to the typical hit formula is, it might keep the 255/256 thing on purpose.

quote:
Might there be another set of rules concerning stat modifiers?

I think Toby's recent tests "proved" that Recover is 100% accurate, except that some have seen it fail. So, perhaps it's 100% effective typically, but there's a bug that sometimes makes it fail. Or maybe it's not a bug, but who knows what controls it?

It's all very mysterious...

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Porcupine
Farting Nudist
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posted 03-03-2000 08:22 PM      Profile for Porcupine   Email Porcupine   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I dunno how the math works, but I would guess it is very hard to prove something like Recover would be 100% accurate. If it were 99.6% accurate, it would only miss on average 1 in 256 times. But that is only on average, and even with a little bit of reasonably bad luck, you could see it miss 1 out of 5000 times even. I dunno what the chances of that are, but it probably wouldnt be too astronomical so it could happen to u, right?

Also, I have no idea if computer and gameboys are truly random or not. For something so rare as that, the randomness generator might display some eccentrities maybe?

I suspect it is a bug. Off by 1 bugs are common in computer programming. Has anyone seen 100% moves miss in Gold/Silver? This would probably answer our question since Gold/Silver had MANY MANY MANY changes regarding unbalanced gameplay and bugs/overpowered moves. This means the game designers for Gold/Silver really did their job, so if 100% moves still miss we know it was intentional.

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From: Honolulu, HI, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
Member # 5

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posted 03-03-2000 09:05 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I might as well post the specific data I obtained. In an RB link battle, I recently ran a total of 3000 trials of either Horn Attack or Karate Chop (about equal numbers of each) *. HA and KC between them missed a total of 10 times. 2990/3000= 99.666% !

I'm not about to take that as foolproof confirmation of the 255/256 accuracy theory, but it's interesting.

The odd thing was that for every one of those 3000 trials, I had the victim using Recover. It never "missed" or failed once. I can't personally remember ever seeing it fail, but at this point it would hardly suprise me, even given the above data.

* This was done for a completely different purpose, but the data shed some light on this issue as well. Also, about half of the trials were done by a slow L50 pokemon against a very fast L100 pokemon. Still more confirmation that in the absence of EvAcc modifiers, relative Speed has no bearing on moves that have a 255 accuracy.

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From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 03-03-2000 09:31 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Porcupine:
I dunno how the math works, but I would guess it is very hard to prove something like Recover would be 100% accurate.

Well, it's impossible to prove that something is 100% accurate, because you can't do an infinite number of trials. But I'm willing to take the leap of faith and say no failures in 3000 trials = 100% accuracy for Recover, barring extenuating circumstances, which are probably mistakes or interesting purposeful side effects of things we haven't yet discovered.

Especially since the attacks yielded a "perfect" 99.6%.

quote:
If it were 99.6% accurate, it would only miss on average 1 in 256 times.

Given the correlation of the original data ripped from the ROM (that certain attacks have a 255 accuracry) to the data determined experimentally (99.666% accuracy), I'd say it's a pretty good bet that those attacks are 255/256 by design. You might not agree with the game designers' view of how those attacks should work, but I wouldn't call it a mistake or a bug.

quote:
Also, I have no idea if computer and gameboys are truly random or not. For something so rare as that, the randomness generator might display some eccentrities maybe?

I initially had worries about this, but most of Toby's data with a ridiculous number of trials yields exactly what you'd expect, so I'd say that while it can't possibly be "truly" random, it's so friggin close it hardly matters.

However, I do think that a lot of Non-damaging Attacks we have listed as 99.6% might have a base accuracy of 100%, barring other bugs or interrelations we don't yet understand.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
Member # 19

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posted 03-05-2000 01:49 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the data from the ROM is 255, that's documented. The fact that it tends to miss 1/256 times doesn't indicated that it is actually intentional or not: they may have used "less than" instead of "less than or equal", it could easily be a mistake (though I'm a big fan of it, myself).

Nintendo talked about the Rest thing in the back of the Yellow manual (next to the documented change in Blizzard).

-cfalcon

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From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
Nobody knows why I'm an admin.
Member # 42

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posted 03-05-2000 06:07 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bite is definitely Evil (check the attack type on your Pokemon's "Moves" list; normally third from the top) and uses the Special stats. (Use Bite, use Leer, use Bite. No change in damage.)
From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
NOBODY IMPORTANT
Member # 1699

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posted 05-30-2002 01:43 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm going fucking nuts. My Head will spontaneously explode any minute now. Because of this, I am replying with the exact same message to the very last post ever in each forum.

Then I'm going to make a new topic containing the exact same message in each forum. So....

Bump!

From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Donald
Bob the Builder
Member # 1551

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posted 05-30-2002 04:49 PM      Profile for Donald   Email Donald      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, simple question.

WTF are you smoking?

From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
NOBODY IMPORTANT
Member # 1699

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posted 05-31-2002 01:37 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
OK, simple question.

WTF are you smoking?

Umm...
Good Question...
I'm feeling better now, but I was randomly doing things that made no sense whatsoever until I gained control of my senses yesterday... Like charging into a wall head on. Repeatedly. Over and over. Until my head hurt. Maybe that's why I was doing these things...
No, wait, I didn't start ramming my head until AFTER I posted these...

But meh, you get the picture...
Anywho, sorry.

From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged


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