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Author Topic: What if people used Muk and Seadra?
Lark84
My skeleton is made of creamy nougat.
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posted 05-04-2001 02:06 PM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have you ever thought of this?

Why do we use the pokémon we use?

Why does everyone use Rhydon/Golem, and not Onix?

Why Starmie instead of Tentacruel?

Why Exeggutor instead of Tangela?

Do you think that if you would turn back time, to the release day of Pokémon Red/Blue, and then waited four years -do you think people would use the same pokémon as they do now, or would everyone say that Rhydon sucks and Muk ownz j00?

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Me: Mick_Hale, you're right!
poccil: Mick_Hale isn't even posting on this topic.


Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
goo
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posted 05-04-2001 02:30 PM      Profile for goo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Better moves and stats

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I'm not handicapped, I'm just lazy.


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cfalcon
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posted 05-04-2001 03:06 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely not.

Do you think I picked the monsters I used at random? Do you think I saw people using monsters and said "oh, those must be good"? No, I've spent time trying to make Tentacruel playable. He got a lot better in metallic, that's for sure.


Here are some good reasons to use the monsters we do:

Rhydon/Golem don't have ass stats. Onix does.

Starmie resists psychic. Tentacruel takes double.

Tangela was very usable in chromatic days, and was probably a little underutilized. Eggbert was a better beast in most ways, though.

I selected the monsters I thought were good, and then I found out that EVERYONE ELSE reached the SAME conclusions.

The monsters in use are in use for reasons, in general. The reason is because people find them consistent performers, and they can often outperform their close rivals.

This isn't to say that we've reached the peak, however: Tentacruel might become usable. Onix probably won't. Tangela sux me these days, with a special defense of like 2 or something (seriously, it was lowered a lot).

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-cfalcon

"I want to punch Quagsire "
-Fish151PKMN


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gloomboy
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posted 05-04-2001 04:59 PM      Profile for Gloomboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's why Poison is so BAD!

Poison is weak vs. Psychic

Mewtwo,the most commonly used Pokemon,has Psychic attacks.

Poison dies in one hit to M2. 'Nuff said.

Sure,Tentacruel is fast like Starmie,but when it can't beat the common newbie's team(which includes Cheaptwo and Starmie with Psychic), you tend to lose more often than usual.

Stats win battles and not favorites. If I have a Rhydon and you have an Onix,who do you think would win in a faceoff? Rhydon.

Chromatics was broken because Psychic was only weak against a few bug attacks. Metallics has Shadow Ball,so Eggy and other common psychics will have a challenge.

All I can say is,if the designers had fixed RBY's psychic weaknesses and made Mewtwo impossible to obtain(they could have put Mew in the Unknown cave),things could have been a bit more different.

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[Sig deleted due to absurd length.]


From: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
My custom title sucks.
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posted 05-05-2001 12:41 AM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All I can say is,if the designers had... made Mewtwo impossible to obtain(they could have put Mew in the Unknown cave)

That strikes me as an elegant hypothetical solution to the Mewtwo problem. Mew, especially if her gene pool isn't artificially restricted, is powerful enough to be the "ultimate" monster to obtain in the game, but not so powerful as to ruin it.

On the other hand, I like the idea of one monster you can only get at special events, but that could have been anything - Togepi, say.

Anyway, my real reason for posting:

Seadra 0wnZ j00.

Ok, not really over Starmie, but he's still the biz0mb (or whatever).


From: Winnipeg, Manitoba | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
MewtwoSama
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posted 05-05-2001 12:21 PM      Profile for MewtwoSama   Author's Homepage   Email MewtwoSama   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why does everyone use Rhydon/Golem, and not Onix?
I tried. It just wont work.

Why Starmie instead of Tentacruel?
Fish uses Tentacruel sometimes.

Why Exeggutor instead of Tangela?
Fish uses that one too. Tangela is quite strong, but it can't learn Explosion, so it is not the smart.

Do you think that if you would turn back time, to the release day of Pokémon Red/Blue, and then waited four years -do you think people would use the same pokémon as they do now, or would everyone say that Rhydon sucks and Muk ownz j00?

Nah, I always liked Rhydon anyway. Dance Rhydon dance!

Muk already ownz. Sama uses Muk all the time. Many an Alakazam go down to my Muk

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Pika Pika Pika-chu


From: Abyss of Evil | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 05-05-2001 03:31 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I use Seadra. Seadra is quite useful, being all nice and well-rounded and all.

Double Team
Rest
Toxic
Surf

Toxic will most likely induce switches, giving Seadra the opportunity to DT up some more. It also gives Seadra a fighting chance in case it gets frozen through the double teams.

I also use Onix quite avidly.

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Good Excel: The Bullet of Justice will always demolish evil! Remember that!
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[This message has been edited by SDShamshel (edited 05-05-2001).]


From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 05-06-2001 03:57 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tentacruel is BARELY playable in chromatics.

Tangela is playable in chromatics. I brought one to tournament. Without Stadium sub/sleep rules, he is good.

I can't justify Onix. The one good point is the song reference:

ONIX used SLAM!


But I'm a bigger fan of naming Tentacruel "Hippie".

Enemy Hippie used ACID.

Muk may be better than I think, but he can't be too much better- he's still poison typed, after all, and Quake and Psychic abound.

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-cfalcon

"I want to punch Quagsire "
-Fish151PKMN


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Lark84
My skeleton is made of creamy nougat.
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posted 05-06-2001 07:36 AM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My point with this post was:

If people started using stuff like Lickitung, would people start using Machamp and Primeape to deal with those pesky SD:ing Lickis?

It was just an example, but you get the point.

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Me: Mick_Hale, you're right!
poccil: Mick_Hale isn't even posting on this topic.


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White Cat
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posted 05-06-2001 10:06 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage   Email White Cat      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, but then people would start using Alakazam and Zapdos to deal with those Fighting types. When people started playing the game, they probably did use those at first. But through trial and error, people discovered that there was a small circle of Pokemon that consistently stood out above the rest, based on stats, attacks, and the ability to counter each other better than anyone on the outside.

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"What exactly does the Speed rating do? The only thing I've found is that it determines who goes first each turn, which is pretty pointless."
-- Me, two years ago


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sonichu
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posted 05-07-2001 04:58 PM      Profile for Sonichu     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seadra evolves into the best type in G/S, Water/Dragon. With only Dragon as it's weakness, it's quite good. Go Kingdra!

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~Sonichu

dumbass, dont you know curse and doble edge shouldnt be used i conjuction do you know the ower of a double edge STABd up and then how much damage you would recieve, come on, youd destroy yourself, me has to larf,-A rating on Curselax...larf?-Kalro asae Uyietho Gligar


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Espeon
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posted 05-11-2001 04:27 PM      Profile for Espeon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People use the pokes that they use because they like them or they may be powerful, people that use legendaries are just stink people that cant find a better way to win a battle!

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From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
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posted 05-12-2001 02:34 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I use whatever monsters I have to to assure that I win.

The purpose of the game isn't to gloat over how your shitty monsters can beat someone's good monsters because the player sucks nuts or the CH god smiled on them- and if a shit team beats a good team one of those things happened.

It was asked "what if people started using Lickitung (or whatever)"? The answer is simple: if you could pick something out that would beat my team (or beat psychic, for instance), then I would have to have monsters to deal with that threat. However, it is pretty certain that that doesn't exist, or people would use them.

Basically it goes like this: we build our game around certain monsters. We don't use the monsters that lose to them, and we try to find monsters that beat them. Lickitung isn't playable for plenty of reasons: basically you don't need a Machamp to handle him.

The other monsters aren't used because they aren't playable. I never made any decisions based on which monsters were my favorites (or if I did I didn't have a mathematically valid reason for doing so), and continue to resent the implication that if we pokemon players had had a different frame of mind during team pickins that we would have ended up with very different teams. That would be true if the game were rock paper scissors: but instead we have broken types, types that lack attacks and representatives. If the strongest ground attack was a turd move learned only by one monster (like pin-missile) and the only water was also trash and had low accuracy and low reliability (like pin missile) then fire types would be very good, and by that extension so would rock types. However, it is worth pointing out that the moves fire types learn aren't brizoken like Amnesia and Recover. They took a type, castrated its theoretical checks, gave it really good special attack, special defense and speed, and then combined it with moves that spelled retarded amounts of turn advantage. As you go through the game you will find that Mewtwo's possible counters have been systematically eliminated (One hit KO? Better have a speed clause. Bug types? Make'em poison. Status mods? Beef up Substitute for stadium. Anything we forgot? Let him learn all the good special based TMs)... The other monsters with psychic as a type have similar advantages, though not as stupid.

The game is broken.

We aren't wrong.

There is the chance to debate key points, but the simple fact is that, in general, the monsters everyone uses are for good reasons. Certain exceptions can be made (Tentacruel for instance, and Muk / Weezing all are underused: Pyshic does rape them, but it isn't as if a psychic is ALWAYS out or anything).

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-cfalcon

"I want to punch Quagsire "
-Fish151PKMN


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 05-14-2001 04:31 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
cfalcon,
The game is not broken, it is perfectly balanced.
However, breaking the game rules and altering it does off-set it's equilibrium.
There are 2 ways to experience the game, as a Trainer or as a Strategist.
Trainers follow the rules of the game and play it like it was made to be, no duplications, no hacking, etc...
Strategists only care about the raw core tactical value of the game ignoring any Pokemon's other 2 balancing variables, Training and Trading.
This is why the game seems broken and so Strategists start looking for substitudes for the balancing variables that where removed, these are the clauses and bans that come into effect making the Strategist game enviroment a complicated set of alternate rules. In a Trainer game enviroment, there wouldn't be any need for alternate rules because the game is performing at it's best, at perfect equilibrium.
Yeah, mewtwos can get all the good TMs, then again you're only supposed to have 1 of each of those good TMs...
...and Stadium it's a mockery of the Pokemon system, it it's more than obvious that it's rules are a mirror of Nintendo's own Tour rules, wich, by the way, unbalanced the game.
Hopefully this problem will be rectifyed in Mineral series Stadium and restore the beautiful balance of the game.

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"Come on guys, your mindless comments are making the Dreamer look coherent." -cfalcon


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 05-14-2001 05:10 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Great Dreamer: The game is not broken, it is perfectly balanced.

Not this krap again...


From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 05-14-2001 08:09 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, shut up...

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"Come on guys, your mindless comments are making the Dreamer look coherent." -cfalcon


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 05-15-2001 05:21 AM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One thing I polsted a while back is that Psychic attacks aren't as ciommon as you'd think.

Staremie? Normally he has thudnerbolt and icebeam or surf.

Slowbro? Toby's Surf is standard.

Mewtwo normally has IceBeam and Thunderbolt, whereas Mew is usually SwordsDance-based.

Hypno, Jynx, and Mr. Mime are rarely used.

So, of all the psychic types, only Alakazam frequently uses psychic. Machamp should be playable, and Nidoking is definitely playable (IMHO, he's the most underrated RBY pokemon).

As for some pokemon dominating, go look at my posts on the Level Cup -- http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum10/HTML/000470.html and http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum9/HTML/000505.html

Basically, the idea behind Level Cup is that instead of having everyone level 100, different pokemon have different levels, with the strongest (Mewtwo) having the lowest levels and the weakest (Onix, etc.) are higher -- normally Mewtwo is better than Alakazam, but if Alakazam is level 90 and Mewtwo is only level 70...

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"My name is Atma...
I am pure energy... and as ancient as the cosmos.
Forgotten in the river of time...
I've had an eternity to ponder the meaning of things...
And now I have an answer..."


From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged


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