This is topic Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited in forum Azure Pokemon Center at The Azure Heights Forum.


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Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 06-09-2000, 06:41 AM:
 
I'm not sure which forum is the best one for this subject, but since most of the recent debate on it has been in Arena, I'll post it here.

The main argument I want to address is the one that compares Mewtwo to the Queen in chess, and since everyone gets them, they're perfectly fine to use. However, there are several key flaws in this analogy. A more accurate one would be as follows:

You're playing chess. However, instead of fighting with all your pieces, you need to pick three different ones to battle. Obviously, you're going to pick the Queen as one of them, right? Now pretend that something about the Queen's abilities makes it virtual suicide to use a Rook or a Knight. This leaves the choices of King, Bishop, and Pawn to fill the other two slots. Kinda ruins the point of picking a team, doesn't it?

If Mewtwo is allowed, a three-Pokemon team will almost always consist of a standard Mewtwo, a standard anti-Mewtwo, and a standard anti-anti-Mewtwo. A team with six members is slightly better, but you'll still probably just double the number of anti- and/or anti-anti- Pokemon and only get one reasonably original Pokemon moveset.

People argue that Mewtwo isn't cheap because there are certain ways to beat him. Sorry, that doesn't cut it. When the whole team selection process revolves around Mewtwo strategies, counter-strategies, and counter-counter-strategies, the fun factor becomes a fraction of what it should be.

Mewtwo is one of the worst examples of game imbalance in video game history, and that is why he should be banned.
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-09-2000, 12:08 PM:
 
You got it!
 
Posted by Kobayashi (Member # 313) on 06-09-2000, 02:30 PM:
 
I see pokemon more like Rock,Paper,Scissors. But Mewtwo is like a big tank or something which can wipe out them 3.

If you have Mewtwo and Mew in play then you HAVE to pick them if you want to win. If your playing 6 on 6, that means you have 2 places chosen for you. Then you'll need at least one pokemon to counter-mewtwo, another place taken, and maybe a counter-counter-mewtwo. That leaves just 2 places out of the 6 for orignal pokemon, which will just be pull from the usual suspects of pokemon.

The point i'm trying to make is that half of pokemon is picking your team, if you have mewtwo and mew in it then that job is already done for you.

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"I don't hate the man, but I pity the fool" - Mr. T
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-09-2000, 08:53 PM:
 
Yah; most 6-pick teams I see consist of the birds, Mew + M2, and a starter or Snorlax.

Bah.

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Get a new car for your wife. It's a great trade.
 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-10-2000, 03:16 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:

These strategies do work, but they rely too much on luck and coincidence. Killing mewtwos isn't necessarily impossible, but the sacrifice needed to take them out will screw you in the long run. Also, you're forgetting that all of these strategies can be countered by the right moves Mewtwo can learn. I'll exlain further:

1. Use Thunder Wave. A lot. Works on anything. Gives you extra hits when you need them.

That's usually my first option, but it doesn't always work that way. If your opponent sees an electric paralyzer, he can just switch out to a ground type and make you waste a turn. And if your non-electric paralylzer gets taken out earlier in the match, you have no way to paralyze the bastard unless you have THREE guys with thunder wave. That's not fair IMO. Also, Mewtwo can negate that with Subsitute(in stadium).

2. Use a kamikaze or two. They're fun to play, and blow the Mewtwos away!

This is my general strategy for killing them, but like I mentioned before, it takes its toll in the long run. If you sacrafice your Golem, you lose your main electric-type killer. If you sacrafice an Exeggutor, there goes your main sleeper and Ground-resister. The only pokemon I wouldn't miss much would be Snorlax or Mew, but not everyone has them on their team. Again, in order to be a great Kamikazee killer, you need to use specific pokemon that might not fit in with your style. And again, I call it unfair. Don't forget that Mewtwo can counter possible suicide pokemon by using either Subsitute, Double team, or Barrier. Those moves aren't too common, but they can be used.


3. DO NOT focus your entire team on special attacks. Using all Slowbro, Exeggutor, Snorlax w/ Amnesia/Ice Beam, and the like is varied, but you need to go after physical damage, too. It's equally as important to diversify between types as it is to diversify between physical and special attacks; THIS IS THE BIG ONE THAT PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET.

Unfortunately, most physical attackers are weak to Mewtwo's attacks. Ground types fall to Blizzard, Ice beam, or Solar Beam. Fighters fall to psychic. Normal types have the best shot at dealing damage, but most don't have a good enough special to go up against an Amnesiac Mewtwo. Chansey can, but it doesn't have enough attack power to do anything. Snorlax is the only real possibility, and his speed is a major liability. And again, having to use a specific pokemon to take out another is just plain cheap. And Mewtwo can always boost his defense up with Barrier.


4. Don't poison or Toxic. They just aren't worth it.

Agreed.

5. Play at least 1 guy with Amnesia (Snorlax, Slowbro, Mewtwo, etc.) and usually one guy with Swords Dance (usually Mew). This gives you two huge powers in different styles of damage to hit a Special or Defense weakness mattering upon the opponent.

Again, having to choose 1 of 3 pokemon to put on your team isn't fair. If you don't want to use one of them, you shouldn't have to.

6. Don't be a poor sport. Everyone gets swept, even by non-DTing, non-Amnesiaing guys sometimes. I've been nearly swept by a lucky Lapras with Confuse Ray, even with Mewtwo and Mew.

Being swept by luck doesn't bother me much. I have the worst luck possible. =P


7. Be quick when dealing with Mewtwo/Mew. Go for quick, high damage attacks, and deny powerup time. With Mewtwo, go STRAIGHT for physical attacks; special attacks can become useless. Paralyzing is crucial.

I agree with this also, but it doesn't always work. Sometimes your paralyzers get killed, and if the enemy mewtwo has thunder wave, you don't gain a speed advantage. Barrier also destroys this strategy.


If you try the above, Mewtwo, as well as any other Pokemon, shouldn't be a major problem. I don't have trouble with them, and if I don't, and we're playing the same game, that means you can learn to not have trouble with them. Adapt, grow, develop; that's what it's all about!


Personally, I feel devoting half of your team to killing one pokemon makes the game cheap and unenjoyable. I'd rather use the pokemon I want to use, dammit! And don't forget, Mewtwo can counter ANY anti-mewtwo pokemon if given the right moves. He's cheap. Plain and simple.

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[This message has been edited by SpaceDog (edited 06-10-2000).]
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-10-2000, 07:50 PM:
 
Thank you SpaceDog. Very eloquently put.

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"It's like the bastard lovechild of Tekken and Virtua Fighter."
-EGM, on Dead or Alive 2 for Dreamcast
 


Posted by TeeJay (Member # 265) on 06-10-2000, 09:23 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceDog:
you have no way to paralyze the bastard unless you have THREE guys with thunder wave. That's not fair IMO.

What do you mean it's not fair? Thunder Wave is an incredibly valuble asset, not just for Mewtwo. Give a Starmie Thunder Wave and Surf and watch it fly.

Again, in order to be a great Kamikazee killer, you need to use specific pokemon that might not fit in with your style.

Would you rather lose one Pokemon or many? Besides, if ya ask me, anything for a Mewtwo is good. I mean, think, if you knock out their Mewtwo, you are one Mewtwo up on them. It's like in chess when you still have your Queen and the opponent doesn't... sweet.

Unfortunately, most physical attackers are weak to Mewtwo's attacks. Bleh falls to bleh...

I'm gonna tie this in near the end of the post, cause it goes along with something else.

Again, having to choose 1 of 3 pokemon (Slowbro, Snorlax, or Mewtwo) to put on your team isn't fair. If you don't want to use one of them, you shouldn't have to.

All of those are great Pokemon, and I wouldn't leave home without one anyway. You make it sound like they utterly suck and you're forced to put one in your team. Heck, I would love to be forced to put one of those in... especially Snorlax.

1. (Up above)

2. I agree with this also, but it doesn't always work. Sometimes your paralyzers get killed, and if the enemy mewtwo has thunder wave, you don't gain a speed advantage. Barrier also destroys this strategy.

3. Mewtwo can counter ANY anti-mewtwo pokemon if given the right moves.

Ok, all of these tie together. You keep mentioning all these different moves that can counter your Pokemon. Ok, think real hard. No, you're not thinking hard enough. Think HARDER. How many moves can a Pokemon have?
4.
Now, lets break this down. A regular Mewtwo should have a healing move, Recover or Rest. If they don't, then they shouldn't a hassle anyway.
3 left.
Ok, now we need a defensive move. Amnesia is a favorite. So is Double Team and Barrier. If a Mewtwo doesn't have any of these, he's a pushover.
2 left.
I counted 4 offensive moves that you mentioned. Psychic, Blizzard, Ice Beam, and Solar Beam. Let's throw out Blizzard cause it's the same as Ice Beam. I'd better mention Thunder Bolt to make it fair.
Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunder Bolt, Solar Beam.
There you have it. Now, these moves could easily counter another Pokemon. Solar Beam isn't too efficient, though, due to the one turn delay. But, we only have 2 moves left to make up the decent Mewtwo. Are you telling me you have a team of all Ground types, or all Water types? Better not. You claim that Mewtwo can counter anything, when given the right moves. You hit the nail on the head there.

It can't be given all those moves, so you are definitely gonna have some Pokemon that aren't weak to the Mewtwo, which will be able to blast him. He has Psychic/T-bolt? Whip out your Exeggutor. He has Ice Beam/Solar Beam? Whip out a Lightning, Fire, or Normal type. He can't counter them ALL. And you don't have to specify all your Pokemon to counter him, either. A Snorlax with Body Slam could mess with everyone, not just Mewtwo, like you make it seem. A Starmie with T-wave and Surf could mess with everyone.

He's cheap. Plain and Simple.
WRONG! Next time think harder before you say something like that.



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Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-10-2000, 10:57 PM:
 
Listen Fanha......

There are physical attacks...but guess what?not ONE physical attack in the game,cannot kill mewtwo in a single hit.There is always preparation.

Mewtwo will most likly have 2 amnesia's up...2 turns is nothing

Guess what a STAB fully amnesia'ed psychic can deal?

Combined with bolt,for the freezing platforms and toby's....that IS unstopable...

People are using 5 WAY MAX MEWTWOS...HOW CAN YOU,IN YOUR RIGHT FREGGIN MIND,NOT CALL THIS CHEAP...I DO NOT WANT TO SPEND HALF OF MY FREGGIN TEAM OVER A SINGLE POKEMON,AND HAVE A TANK TAKE DOWN THE REST OF MY TEAM...THIS IS FOR FREGGIN FUN...

Sorry about the caps...but i am extremely pissed...

Thats right....FUN....not for fun SPOILING....


NO MEWTWO

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 06-11-2000, 12:52 AM:
 
Why do you think that nintendo is making bug type stronger in G/S? If they thought that mewtwo was fair then they would have left bug where it was.

quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. K:
I'm beginning to think you just don't know what you are talking about.

TeeJay, you make me angry when you throw your weight around here.

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"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.

[This message has been edited by Biffster (edited 06-11-2000).]
 


Posted by MewtwoSama (Member # 12) on 06-11-2000, 01:20 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:

Combined with bolt,for the freezing platforms and toby's....that IS unstopable...


There was once this guy I faced almost a year ago. He had spent the whole day kicking ass. At the end of the day, he faced me. My Mewtwo (I think I had the Grep moveset) could have wiped out his WHOLE team, but I played with him and used a ToxicSeed Egger, Dragonite and Starmie.

A few months later, he comes back with "RuffRider"
Amnesia,Recover,T-bolt,Psychic were the moves of his new Mewtwo.
I didnt use Mewtwo myself and still beat the guy.
Very far from unstoppable. Even in the hands of someone good.

quote:

People are using 5 WAY MAX MEWTWOS...HOW CAN YOU,IN YOUR RIGHT FREGGIN MIND,NOT CALL THIS CHEAP...I DO NOT WANT TO SPEND HALF OF MY FREGGIN TEAM OVER A SINGLE POKEMON,AND HAVE A TANK TAKE DOWN THE REST OF MY TEAM...THIS IS FOR FREGGIN

I dont call that cheap. I'd rather have everyone else use Mewtwo that good.

My teams are designed to kick ass.
That means they not designed to take out specific Pokemon. Just kick ass.

I stopped using Mewtwo just to make things harder for myself. This makes the battle field somewhat even against most of the people I've faced at Poke-events.

If I meet someone who I think can offer a good challenge, I'll call on Mew/two to even the playing field. Use your best against the best. But that's a rare occasion.

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AIM: MewtwoSama
Rejoice that I honor you with these words, rubbish!
Bow before my magnificence and might, and I may spare you when my time arrives.
But only if it pleases me to do so!

 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-11-2000, 01:23 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by TeeJay:

What do you mean it's not fair? Thunder Wave is an incredibly valuble asset, not just for Mewtwo. Give a Starmie Thunder Wave and Surf and watch it fly.

You have to realize that during battles, you tend to lose some pokemon. Even if you have 2 paralyzers, they might not live long enough to even SEE the Mewtwo. If the battle is running late, and you and your opponent are down to about 2 or 3 pokemon each, you might not have a Paralyzer left. And again, Mewtwo can counter with subsitute. And surf won't do JACK to an amnesiac mewtwo.


Would you rather lose one Pokemon or many? Besides, if ya ask me, anything for a Mewtwo is good. I mean, think, if you knock out their Mewtwo, you are one Mewtwo up on them. It's like in chess when you still have your Queen and the opponent doesn't... sweet.


I said earlier I think it's cheap to be forced to use specific pokemon, and you just helped my point. So in order to have an advantage against a Mewtwo user, you have to have a Snorlax/Mew AND a Mewtwo of your own? That's 1/3 of your team right there....

All of those are great Pokemon, and I wouldn't leave home without one anyway. You make it sound like they utterly suck and you're forced to put one in your team. Heck, I would love to be forced to put one of those in... especially Snorlax.


I already went over this. Being FORCED to use pokemon to even stand a chance makes the game boring and repetitive. Snorlax isn't in my team's style, and I don't want to be forced to use one just to stand a shot at winning. Same goes for Slowbro and Mewtwo.

Ok, all of these tie together. You keep mentioning all these different moves that can counter your Pokemon. Ok, think real hard. No, you're not thinking hard enough. Think HARDER. How many moves can a Pokemon have?
4.
Now, lets break this down. A regular Mewtwo should have a healing move, Recover or Rest. If they don't, then they shouldn't a hassle anyway.
3 left.
Ok, now we need a defensive move. Amnesia is a favorite. So is Double Team and Barrier. If a Mewtwo doesn't have any of these, he's a pushover.
2 left.
I counted 4 offensive moves that you mentioned. Psychic, Blizzard, Ice Beam, and Solar Beam. Let's throw out Blizzard cause it's the same as Ice Beam. I'd better mention Thunder Bolt to make it fair.
Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunder Bolt, Solar Beam.
There you have it. Now, these moves could easily counter another Pokemon. Solar Beam isn't too efficient, though, due to the one turn delay. But, we only have 2 moves left to make up the decent Mewtwo. Are you telling me you have a team of all Ground types, or all Water types? Better not. You claim that Mewtwo can counter anything, when given the right moves. You hit the nail on the head there.

It can't be given all those moves, so you are definitely gonna have some Pokemon that aren't weak to the Mewtwo, which will be able to blast him. He has Psychic/T-bolt? Whip out your Exeggutor. He has Ice Beam/Solar Beam? Whip out a Lightning, Fire, or Normal type. He can't counter them ALL. And you don't have to specify all your Pokemon to counter him, either. A Snorlax with Body Slam could mess with everyone, not just Mewtwo, like you make it seem. A Starmie with T-wave and Surf could mess with everyone.

Ah, but this is one thing that makes mewtwo so deadly: his versatility. Unless you know your opponent personally, you will NOT know what moves his mewtwo has. It could have ice beam, it could have psychic, it could have thunderbolt. But you DONT KNOW. And by the time you figure out just what the hell it has, it may have the chance to take out 2-3 of your pokemon. You may send out chansey only to find it hit by a hyper beam. You may send out Exeggutor to see it blasted by a blizzard. And your slowbro could be on the receiving end of a Thunderbolt before you know what hit him. You could see Mewtwo throw up a subsitute right before paralyzing it, or even worse: right when you use selfdestruct or explosion. You never know what to expect when you see a Mewtwo, and that's what makes them so deadly.

Also, the Mewtwo's moves don't have to be super-effective against EVERY type you come around. Sure, you could send out an electric or a fire type, but really, what can they do? Those types revolve around the special stat, and most can't even compare to Mewtwo's 400+ special. Mewtwo can take on just about any electric or fire type in the game without having to use attacks that are super-effective against it. Even without Amnesia. And I already went over the normal types, all non-snorlaxes are easy enough to counter.

And no, I never have a problem with body slamming snorlaxes or surfing Starmies. Those are MUCH easier to counter than a Mewtwo. Especially the Starmies.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mewtwo is cheap. Simple as that.

[/B]



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Posted by Sneakerton (Member # 513) on 06-11-2000, 01:36 AM:
 
Hey everyone i'm new on this forum but i have been reading what's going on here. I'm no pokemon newbie if that's what you're asking. You people who keep trying to hang onto mew and mewtwo for dear life disturb me. particularly fanha and that t.j. character. You two should be loaded up into a rocket together, and blasted off to a gay island where you can just use Mewtwo and Mew all the time and have your own little tournaments. my buds and I never use mew or mewtwo and we have some of the most fun pokemon battles ever.

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Come on, try to catch me. Catch me if you can.
 


Posted by Sneakerton (Member # 513) on 06-11-2000, 02:29 AM:
 
Fish, i don't mean to piss you off, but those two particular fellows (teejay and fan-guy) get on my nerves more and more as i read their posts.

who is big gulp? does he work for 7 eleven?

Fish, i don't want to not be able to get along with you. don't hate me too bad plz :-(

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Come on, try to catch me. Catch me if you can.
 


Posted by Fish (Member # 267) on 06-11-2000, 02:36 AM:
 
Good god, you have posted a lot in the last hour!!
Anyway, just dont waltz in and banish two guys I respect to gay island.

Everyone has their opinions, and as we know, they are going to stick to them.

So, I propose an end to this damn squabble.

And also, welcome to Azure!

(oh yeah...Big Gulp=newbie forever, I think I made him leave, though...oops..)

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"California is the Japan of America." -Jim Webber (aka VaporeonsHaze) on how there are a high number of respected trainers residing in California
 


Posted by Gloomboy (Member # 462) on 06-11-2000, 03:03 AM:
 
I agree,we should close this topic right now. People,there is no way you are going to get these others convinced that Mewtwo isn't a threat - they are paranoid.

The reason this whole friggin' argument started up was because someone cried "Let's ban Mewtwo from the tournaments! He's cheap!" There is no way you are gonna convince these paranoid idiots otherwise,because they feel that Mewtwo ruins the fun of a tourney.

Also,if they are running tourneys,they have the right to set their own rules,so no M2 if you go play with them. Sorry.

At least they don't have a say in setting official tournaments,and you'll never see them in Nintendo tourneys because all the people there use M2. I like Mewtwo because he is the coolest-looking psychic Pokemon(but Mew's the cutest psychic!),so I agree with Fanha and TeeJay that Mewtwo is cool,but I will not waste my time defending M2 because these weirdos(Spacedog and such) believe that he's sick and that's that.

Let's worry more about other Pokemon,like Slowbro(which I am not a big fan of...) than
something everyone will eternally divided on.

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"C.J. used SUPER ROD!"
"Not even a nibble!"
- Fishing for Dratini in the Safari Zone
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-11-2000, 11:23 AM:
 
I think it's funny how, whenever me or Mewtwo Sama post to a "Mewtwo is cheap!" thread, we get ignored.

::rant mode ON!::

People, if you're so pissed about Mewtwo's existance, play Poke Cup. Otherwise, shut your mouths and play in a Mewtwo-infested enviorment (I know I spelled that wrong...). It's a simple as that. Banning Mewtwo in Prime just makes it a Poke Cup where everyone's L100.

And if you're too wimpy to find a good level divide for Poke Cup, you're probably too wimpy to be playing Pokemon on a competitive level, anyway.

::rant mode OFF!::

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by TeeJay (Member # 265) on 06-11-2000, 05:45 PM:
 
Well said, every bit of it.!

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Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com
 


Posted by Peelium (Member # 406) on 06-11-2000, 06:17 PM:
 
Yeah, well said Fanha.

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Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of.
 


Posted by Sneakerton (Member # 513) on 06-11-2000, 07:43 PM:
 
sorry if you dont like me Fanha, but you gotta admit that you and teejay flying off to a gay island is a kinda funny idea

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Come on, try to catch me. Catch me if you can.
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-11-2000, 08:05 PM:
 
Damn straight, Fahna.

I'm glad someone notices me.

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-11-2000, 11:58 PM:
 
First,to teejay..

Well..some people LIKE certain pokemon..and DISLIKE certain pokemon....i LIKE to use my favorites...and they are NOT mewtwo killer....see,because for some extremely strange reason...i like to have FUN in this game...no..not win....have FUN...

All mewtwo users,are just power hungry...they may THINK they are having fun..and using their elite strategy by clicking the A button and puching the arrow buttons to select amnesia twice in a row,and any attack after that to take down a whole team..but no..they are power hungry bastards.They get high off the win....i dont care if i win or lose,i like to use pokemon which i will have tons of fun using...like Arbok,Lickitung..and oddities.

Wouldnt you be happy if your beedrill beat a pokemon?i sure would...no pokemon "sucks"..not even ditto or magikarp..My Arbok HAS defeated a amnesia'ater mewtwo..but it was PURE luck..luck,exactly why EVERY mewtwo killer must have.I dont like basing my strategy on luck...unless it's something like a one hit KO...

Why should i replace three of my beloved's to defeat ONE silly pokemon...WHY ARE YOU DEPRIVING ME OF HAVING FUN IN THIS GAME....WHY!!??

No..it isnt about skill...its about luck and preference.

><

Isnt this tourney about having fun?

Its definatly not proving which board is more skilled...or better at the game,especially with PBS involved...its about which player gets luck with his ice beam and freezes that guy,or who hits their one hit KO enough to sweep the rest of the team...

Like i said...mewtwo is for "win freaks"...and it completely UN-BALANCES the other enjoyment seeking players.

I think,the people with the REAL "bad skills" are the people who have to resort to cheapasstwo just to help them take out those 2-3 pokemon..so the restcan be swept..

Pff..these are only my opinions,and i mean no offense by them.

><

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-12-2000, 12:02 AM:
 
I sorta discussed the 4-way board tourney there...sorry for going off topic

;p

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-12-2000, 12:04 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:

Thunder Wave GUARENTEES that their speed is below yours, and it is the highest accuracy possible. Physical attacks, as long as you calculate the damage and know how much you can do, just involve planning. Of course, the WHOLE GAME OF POKEMON is mainly LUCK. Freezing, sleep, total paralysis, one-hit KOs, which 6 you pick, what your opponent has, critical hits; it all comes down to LUCK.

You're forgetting that if Mewtwo knows thunder wave as well, it can protect Mewtwo from this speed reduction. And of course this game is based on luck, but Mewtwos require even MORE luck to beat. I never have to get lucky to beat a Charizard, or even a Dragonite for that matter. And if you're up against a lucky Mewtwo user, you might as well put your head between your knees, and kiss yo' ass goodbye.


1. They're losing their Mewtwo; that's the worse sacrifice THEY could EVER make, assuming its their "powerhouse"!

Not necessarily. If I used a Mewtwo, I wouldn't use it as a tank that sets up for "clean sweeps". I'd use it somewhat as a support pokemon. Instead of supporting my other pokemon by inflicting status effects on my opponent, it would support them by doing damage while they switch to counter. In fact, I wouldn't even bother with a defensive move besides recover. If I lost my Mewtwo I wouldn't really mind, as long as he did his job of weakening most of my opponent's team. The rest of the match would be a breeze.


2. I'm assuming that you're thinking Mewtwo with Amnesia in everything here. If he doesn't, he's just any other Pokemon with a high-end stat; he doesn't have the "super-power" to KO most Pokemon in 1-2 hits. I assume Recover or Rest; otherwise he's VERY easy to KO. That leaves 2 moves. If he has Thunder Wave, Substitute, Double Team, etc., there's only ONE attack move left. This means if they're using one of the above, they can only hit with ONE type of attack; ANY team should be able to muster a Pokemon with a resistance to any of Mewtwo's attacks (Psychic: Starmie, Slowbro, Exeggutor, Solarbeam: Exeggutor, Thunderbolt:Exeggutor, or a Ground type, Ice Beam: Lapras, Slowbro, any other Water type). At that pointm, assuming you PROBABLY are looking at Slowbro (Mewtwo w/ Solarbeam as only attack are easy to PP out, and Thunderbolt you can just send out a Ground). He has Amnesia; he can defend against the "super-powered" Amnesia attack. Then you can run it out of PP, or attack it directly, or anything like that.

I already went over this. The process of "finding" which moves the mewtwo has can be fatal. He can take out a few pokemon by the time you find out what it knows. And you don't need Amnesia to be super-powered with a 400+ special and moves that are super-effective against almost every common type. If you can get super-effective attacks off, it only takes 1-2 turns to kill almost anything.

MANY non-Electric Pokemon can learn Thunder Wave.

But how many are actually usefull? There's Starmie, Slowbro, Alakazam, Clefable, and Chansey. The rest suck.

The infamous Tobybro is great for killing Mewtwo, and he has no trouble with Ground types.

Not if the Mewtwo has thunderbolt. =P

Thunder Wave is useful against ANY Pokemon excluding Ground Pokemon, and your opponent may not even have any. If you're afraid they might, try using Raichu as a lead, then Surf instead of Thunder Wave to lure out a Ground and kill it early. If they don't send it out, they probably don't have one.

Nobody's stupid enough to fall for that. Well, smart players aren't. Raichus with surf are quite common.


And switching out a Mewtwo isn't the favorable thing to do in most battles.

Again, if I used Mewtwo, I'd switch him out like crazy. I'd get a free hit, then switch out to something that gives me an advantage against their counter. It works like a charm at wearing your opponent down.


And now you're going into a whole 'nother realm calling Thunder Wave cheap...are you just disturbed by the whole concept of anything that could screw up your team?

Eh? I don't recall saying Thunder Wave was cheap. But, it's cheap to have to have it on half of your team due to one pokemon.


Oh, boo-hoo, you might lose a Pokemon! You're complaining about losing all your Pokemon to Mewtwo, yet you don't want to give up ONE of them to stop it! That seems rather hypocritical.

You're right, I DONT want to lose my pokemon. When you've got a well-balanced team, being forced to sacrafice a team member throws that balance off. It makes the rest of the match an uphill battle to make up for the new weaknesses in your team. And just about every pokemon in the game can be taken out without having to lose one yourself. Mewtwo is the only pokemon I can think of that will nearly always kill at least 1 pokemon on your team, no matter what you do. That's CHEAP.

Here's something interesting: Mew with Explosion, Swords Dance, Horn Drill, Thunder Wave. Start Horn Drilling them if they give you extra turns! I can GUARENTEE you they'll either get KOed, switch, or do something drastic. Once again, nothing forced on the team, just somethign cool I thought I'd mention.

That actually is a pretty interesting Mew. Not necessarily for Mewtwo's, but interesting nontheless. No one would see it coming, and countering it would take a few turns.


Is it just me, or do you have "polymovoMewtwophobia", or fear of Mewtwos with tons of skills that you battle in your dreams but they have EVERYTHING to counter everything you do and you have NO way to beat them. One Mewtwo can't do it all. See the moveset limitation thing.

I went over this about 6 times already....


Go ahead, don't, it's just a suggestion! Of course, just because I don't want to use status effects doesn't mean I should be able to play just as well without them; you seem to be VERY picky...you're saying you don't want Swords Dance, Amnesia, Thunder Wave, Explosion, Selfdestruct, physical attacks with Snorlax, or using up slots on your team. Kinda limits your playing scope of effective attacks, doesn't it?

I never said I didn't WANT them. Mewtwo is just the only pokemon that you NEED those moves for in order to stand a good chance.


And sure, Mewtwo in general can counter any Pokemon in the game, but that polymovoMewtwophobia seems to overtake you; ONE MEWTWO CAN'T HAVE THEM ALL. A Mewtwo that's going to be able to work effectively against you (meaning Amnesia and Recover, generally) will have TWO attacks MAX. Just design a balanced team, and you should have something to counter most on your team naturally. And a Mewtwo without Amnesia really isn't ANYTHING big; the attacks should do damage, but not THAT huge of damage short of a CH. Hyper Beam can't even take advantage of Amnesia anyhow, so I wouldn't worry a lot about it.

I never said mewtwo was totally uncounterable. But, in order to beat one, you have to put the WHOLE TEAM to work. It's not like you're up against a Jolteon and you can send your Rhydon out to counter it. It's a long process that usually ends up with your team weakened, and it gives your opponant an advantage for the rest of the match on. Which is why I think Mewtwo is cheap. If your opponent has one and you don't, you're automatically at a disadvantage. It throws the balance of the game off completely. And there's not another single pokemon in the game that can do that.


Without Amnesia, you're not even looking at one-turn KOs. You should have plenty of time to deal lots of damage, inflict status effects, etc. Just because they aren't as high as him doesn't mean they can't take a couple hits.

He doesn't need 1-turn KOs to be effective. While you switch around like crazy trying to counter the Mewtwo, he can do some major damage to your team. Especially if your opponent catches on to your switching pattern.


Two words: Grow up. If you want to argue, argue; put-downs are another thing altogether. I'm not here to put down anyone or anything, I'm here to debate a point. If you can't control yourself in a debate, maybe you should either not debate or learn some social skills. I don't take anything anyone says here personally about Mewtwo and Mew, but when they say it about me for arguing about them, I do take it personal because it's trying to attack me, not my point, which is immature and pointless, considering I'm not the type to blow up at stuff like that.

I agree with every word here. I hate immaturity, especially when it makes my side look bad.


In closing, as long as people stick to the debate and don't insult the debators, I'd really like to continue this. If anyone holds hard feelings over debate points, then they can leave; I don't keep grudges over arguements.

[/B]


SpaceDog's final thought:

Actually, I think we've debated too much on this. We're all getting too off-topic. I mean, even if EYNH had a point to his message, it had nothing to do with whether or not mewtwo is cheap. Just saying something like "Mewtwo is cheap? Too bad. Deal with it." doesn't prove either of our points. It just detracts from the original argument IMHO.

Also, I just don't think we'll ever get anywhere with this debate. We've pretty much decided on whether or not we feel Mewtwo is cheap or not. I think the real difference between us is that we all have a different definition of "cheap". And that is all based on opinion. No amount of debate can change that. I think that's all I have to say on this matter. Thanks for listening, this really has been a nice debate. Take care of yourselves, and each other. *cheesy music plays*

[This message has been edited by SpaceDog (edited 06-12-2000).]
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-12-2000, 12:06 AM:
 
Proof to justify my theory:

This quote was taken from the topic named,"My battle with Dave"

quote:
Go Articuno (him)
Go Mewtwo (me, cheap I know but I wanted to win)


-Mew's Dad

He wanted to "win"....so it means,to definatly win...you should use mewtwo?

Look how this cheapass excuse for a pokemon is spoiling these poor trainer's minds..

Pfffff

><

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-12-2000, 12:23 AM:
 
It's funny, Argo. You call Mewtwo cheap, yet getting someone to fight your battles for you isn't? You know what I'm talking about, don't try to deny it.

Anyway, I believe this is what, the 6th time I've posted this?

PLAY GOD DAMN POKE CUP IF YOU THINK MEWTWO IS CHEAP.

And about all Mewtwo users being "power hungry", I use him only as clean-up, if at all. See, some people are actually good enough, not only to fight their own battles, but take down Mewtwos with out their own.

And Argo, I don't care if you or anyone else thinks Mewtwo is cheap, as long as you play Poke Cup instead of trying to ban him from Prime, which is, besides the level divide, the only difference between Poke and Prime.

*watches as he gets ignored YET AGAIN...*

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by MewtwoSama (Member # 12) on 06-12-2000, 12:35 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enter Your Name Here:
See, some people are actually good enough...
...take down Mewtwos with out their own.


YAWN...Pokemasters drivel...YAWN...

 
Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-12-2000, 01:03 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fish151PKMN:
Well, Argo, if you are so pumped about this tourney, then dont YOU want to win?
But if you want to have FUN, you are going to get an ass-kicking.

Go in with Arbok and your crap-happy crew.
This is a big event from what you make it out to be.
Doesn't it mean something to you?


First....how do you know the rest of my team,and how can you judge it by calling it crappy?

And...i'd say a arbok isnt much better then a koffing....or a hitmonlee...so are you also calling Mr. K's team a "crap happy crew"?

And who said i want to beat azure so much..and im so.."pumped" for this tourney..i call it excited..it will be lots of FUN...something mewtwo users THINK they get when they use their cheapasses,and get their winning "high".

Once,someone said..its not all about winning..and whoever he/she was..they were right.

Basketball cannot be compared to pokemon,players make millions of dollars on the results of the games...

If you HATED mewtwo...and had a pokemon match come up,where if you won...you got a million bucks..would use you mewtwo?

The answer is obvious..

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Sneakerton (Member # 513) on 06-12-2000, 01:41 AM:
 
i do have valid arguments teejay, and here they r
how would you stop a mewtwo with
ice beam
amnesia
recover/rest
thunderbolt

tobybro wont do the trick, and neither will exeggutor. come on, i wanna hear this. it should be good

------------------
Come on, try to catch me. Catch me if you can.
 


Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 06-12-2000, 01:41 AM:
 
I don't think that any opinions are going to be changed.

Poké is dumb. Levels are advantages...

Hmmm... lets take the best from every pokemon and put it into one.
1)lets take the high special from Moltres and boost it up
2)the speed from jolteon
3)defense from tauros
4)amnesia was stolen from snorlax
5)Clefable relinquished its move compatibility
6)Rhydon's HP
7)The coolness factor from magikarp
8)Alakazam's type

Let's Call it MEWTWO!!!!!

It looks like the only thing that is bad for mewtwo is its rep. Don't say that mewtwo has worse defense than other pokemon, because the only higher defense pokemon are shit. ....onix.....cloyster.....kabutops...

This post wont be so easy to counter, like in doa2

------------------
"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.
 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-12-2000, 01:59 AM:
 
Sneakerton: A chansey would be able to own that Mewtwo. You could also try a suicidal snorlax or mew, but that's too risky IMO. Chansey is a nightmare to any specialist.

------------------

 


Posted by MewtwoSama (Member # 12) on 06-12-2000, 02:08 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sneakerton:
i do have valid arguments teejay, and here they r
how would you stop a mewtwo with
ice beam
amnesia
recover/rest
thunderbolt

tobybro wont do the trick, and neither will exeggutor. come on, i wanna hear this. it should be good



Chansey and Snorlax

I think Teejay was using that Mewtwo against Fanha, yet Fanha had no problem against. W/O using his Mewtwo mind you.

Actually, Amensia Mewtwo arent hard to tackle if you prevent them from powering up. Toby and Eggers can do that via status changers.(T-wave, SleepPowder, StunSpore)
Fanha prefers using Physical damage to take them down.

------------------
AIM: MewtwoSama
Rejoice that I honor you with these words, rubbish!
Bow before my magnificence and might, and I may spare you when my time arrives.
But only if it pleases me to do so!

 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-12-2000, 02:39 AM:
 
Ya know, all this talk about Mewtwo has made me want to design one of my own. I wouldn't use it, but I still thought it'd be fun anyway. How about:

-Blizzard/Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Body Slam/Hyper Beam
-Recover

Blizzard/Ice beam is for Exeggutors and a basic freeze move, Thunderbolt is for Tobys and water types in general, and Body Slam/Hyper beam is for those chanseys that bug me so much. Recover is there for obvious reasons.

Remember, this is being designed to go with my current team, and this is going with MY style. And my style involves switching 900 times per match. =P So, I ditched all the setup moves (sub, amnesia, etc), because he won't be staying in to fight very long. When your opponent is trying to kill you as soon as possible, it's not a good idea to stick around and let him do it.

This Mewtwo is designed to capatalize on one thing: Free hits. He's designed to weaken my opponent's pokemon when they switch, and make the rest of the match easier for the rest of my team. His main target are support pokemon. Since most people will go straight for their paralyzers, Mewtwo will get off plenty of free hits when they switch to their supporter. And by the time they take Mewtwo down, their team will be weakened significantly. I like it.

Heh, what's funny is that I got the idea after a PBS match with Fanha. His lucky f'in mewtwo used nothing but blizzard, blizzard, and selfdestruct, and it took out half my team. Including my only 2 T-wavers.

And TeeJay, weren't you done with this discussion? =P

------------------

 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-12-2000, 04:23 PM:
 
Heh, that switch to Exeggutor in the 2nd was actually accidental, I assure you. I meant to go straight to Jolteon to try and paralyze the basnich, but that didn't work anyway(damn CHs). And since the Mewtwo wasn't paralyzed, my 2 exploders (who were weak to blizzard) had no chance in hell of kamikazee-ing before getting taken out.

And the reason I switched to golem in the first match was to try and explode before dying. I thought for some reason Golem could survive 1 blizzard(he usually does from every non-ice pokemon in the game.) Guess I'll have to use the damage calculator more often. Ah well, I still won the match. I'm proud of my team for doing so well against those odds.


quote:

*cough*paralysis*cough*.

I woulnd't let my Mewtwo get paralyzed. It's not that hard, just switch out to either a ground type or something that's ALREADY paralyzed. That's how I use my chansey, as a status-effect magnet. Once he's been hit by 1 T-wave, all of the rest end up hitting him too. It makes your opponent waste turns. And since all but 1 non-electric paralyzers use special-based attacks, they won't be able to do much damage to chansey at all. If I see a clefable, though, I'll be in a bit of trouble.

------------------

 


Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 06-12-2000, 05:11 PM:
 
I don't want to read year long posts.

If mewtwo is sooooo counterable, why would you use it.

------------------
"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.
 


Posted by TeeJay (Member # 265) on 06-12-2000, 05:22 PM:
 
Because he's not as counterable as the others, but counterable nonetheless.

You have been seeing numerous strategies going over ways to kill Mewtwo. Would you like me to do the same with all the other Pokemon, because I most certainly could find many ways to counter every Pokemon in the game, making them all sooooooooooo counterable.

There, that wasn't too long, was it?

------------------
Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by TeeJay (edited 06-12-2000).]
 


Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 06-12-2000, 05:27 PM:
 
BTW, TeeJay, you are a brat.

------------------
"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-12-2000, 05:39 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Biffster:
I don't want to read year long posts.

If mewtwo is sooooo counterable, why would you use it.


EXACTLY...

Fanha...you may have said some respect is lost in these debates....but respect is also gained.

And which one of you mewtwo defenders compared taking down a mewtwo to taking down a dragonite?

Pff,dont even think about it...ice is SO popular....dragonite dies to two god damn aurora beams from whatever..and EVERYONE has ice on their team...a mewtwo is PSYCHIC...the most RESISTANT type in the game...his HP goes OVER 400...HE LEARNS FREGGIN BARRIER TO COUNTER PHYSICAL ATTACKS...NOT TO MENTION RECOVER...AND EVERY ELEMENT AVAILABLE by TM...

This pointless bickering is NOT changing ANYONE'S opinions...we each have our limits of cheapness...and some people dont have any limits to playing fair game AT ALL...

And scince the majority wants to have FUN at the tourney....mewtwo WILL be banned...


------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Haste2 (Member # 518) on 06-12-2000, 05:53 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by StarCaliber:
You got it!

Agreed!

------------------
Haste2, the hastiest of them all!

How do I put in an email address with the UBB code without saying the email address as the link?

Don't email me!
 


Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-12-2000, 05:57 PM:
 
You guys are distorting the facts.

1)Mewtwo is cheap and is the best in the game.
I don't see any argument here.
2)Mewtwo will be banned in the 4 way board tourney.
Sorry, but it will! Too bad.
3)Since mewtwo is cheap, that makes mewtwo users cheap too.
Why would you want to be called cheap?


I have a slight problem with mew, but I guess I can LIVE with him. I'm already disgusted by the sudden uproar of mewtwo users, contradicting THE already known, ASSumed fact, that mewtwo is cheap, and should not be used.

However, there is no argument whether mewtwo should be banned or not. I'm sorry, he already is. I suggest we move on to mew. Should he be banned or not?

------------------
AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-12-2000, 06:38 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by TeeJay:
And scince the majority wants to have FUN at the tourney...

First, fix your spelling. Second, I DO believe that this was started to see who was the best board, not which board has the most fun. You wanna have fun, don't get involved in a tournament. Log on to PBS randomly thoughout the day and fight people. That's how you have fun, not arguing your ass off to get a rule set so YOU can have "FUN."


[/B]


Boy Teejay....Biffster what certainly correct by calling you a BRAT...

You're gonna stoop to the incredible low of trying to tell me to correct my spelling?Only extremely pathetic people who cant find ANYTHING else wrong with a person do that..

*BIG respect drop*

We made this tourney...to HAVE FUN,OUR rules....we can vote if you like,because we believe in fairness,and have pity for you and your mewtwo using posse...because we know that you have to stoop the the low of mewtwo himself just to assure your "win high"...

Pff...truly pathetic...


------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Gloomboy (Member # 462) on 06-12-2000, 06:51 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Peelium:
Do you really think M2 is cool, Gloomboy?

I thought he was a right ugly bastard.


Well,maybe to you. To me,he's cooler-looking
than Alakazam(come on,Alakazam looks OLD!)
and Hypno(an anteater-man! :P),so it's a
matter opinion. When G/S come out,I'll go
with Espeon instead since that psychic Eevee
looks really awesome!

------------------
"C.J. used SUPER ROD!"
"Not even a nibble!"
- Fishing for Dratini in the Safari Zone
 


Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-12-2000, 07:04 PM:
 
TJ, you are a fuk. I respect any other argument except yours.
<b>
He would be cheap if he were unstoppable. He is far from that.</b>

This is YOUR ASSumption too.
Is this part of "assumalottastuffolism"? NO!
This is part of iamastupidbratwholikestorapemewtwoanddoesn't
playfairlyandcouldn'tbeatanyoneevenforhisfat
mommyslifeunlesshehadhismew/twoolism.

I don't see why you can't just take mewtwo out. Since we banned mewtwo, we DON'T have him "at our disposal". So thus, using mewtwo is unfair. Get rid of him now.

------------------
AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 06-13-2000).]
 


Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 06-12-2000, 07:14 PM:
 
Well, I just beat a mewtwo team verse my mewtwoless team on pbs. It feels great to win that way. Go ahead, brats, use mewtwo.

I dont want to spend the time to pick out all the wrong things in other posts.

Thanks for the support Argo.

------------------
"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.
 


Posted by Fish (Member # 267) on 06-12-2000, 08:44 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Biffster:
BTW, TeeJay, you are a brat.

Why is that, Robbie?
Because he's got you beat?
Because he is right?

Go TeeJay!

Why does everyone have a problem with TeeJay?
Is it because he can back his argument with logical thought, and you can't?
Seems that way to me.
------------------
"California is the Japan of America." -Jim Webber (aka VaporeonsHaze) on how there are a high number of respected trainers residing in California

[This message has been edited by Fish151PKMN (edited 06-12-2000).]
 


Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 06-12-2000, 09:08 PM:
 
Ok, Jason

Go win a championship for me. Try to have fun. Good luck.

------------------
"I finally figured out how to slow that mo-fo down."
Me while using the fly by wire rocket in Perfect Dark.
 


Posted by TeeJay (Member # 265) on 06-12-2000, 10:34 PM:
 
Finally, someone backs up someone who stands for what they believe in.

Thank you Fish.

------------------
Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-13-2000, 03:58 AM:
 
OK, everyone who's in on this giant MewX debate. I would like to know if we can simply contain all of the arguments to this thread. It's the one I check out the most, and its title describes very well what we are talking about. So if you guys agree to stop putting debates under other threads, then I do as well. Makes it simpler for all of us .

Fanha, I like reading your long posts, and I gotta respect you for all the points that you've been making for using Mewtwo. To tell you the truth, I didn't like you early on in these debates, but as someone (Argo I think) said, respect can be gained. And just let me tell you, if there was ANYONE that would sway me into finding Mewtwo to be an acceptable Pokemon for my team, then it would be you. Thank you for remaining so mature throughout this.

But when you get down to it, I just don't like Mewtwo. It seriously pulls some strategy out, in my book. As a reasonable enough compromise, I've decided to play against MewX users, and just hope for the best, without even bringing a Mew/two of my own. I used to bring 'em along, hoping not to have to use them, but battles are a lot more exciting if you drop the security blanket and go all out.

The thing is tho, I can't understand WHY people would want to use MewX in battles. It makes the game just feel all around more strategic without them, ya know? It allows 2 skilled Pokemon trainers to pick 6 pokemon teams, and duke it out. Throwing MewX into there makes it less fun, IMHO.

Yeah, Nintendo may have programmed Mewtwo into the game, but that doesn't mean you are required to use it. And frankly, I still think that the most fun way to play Pokemon is Anything Goes Stadium Rules without MewX. I know that some of you guys are just going to tell me to go play Poké Cup, but I like L100 battles. They are very cool, and something about L50-55 Pokemon rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure what, but something.

Outlawing moves seems...no. I can't condone that at all. That's like telling someone that the moveset they designed is too good, so throw it out and pick a new one. And this brings back the sports analogy, where it's like telling one team that they are too good, so they can't play. However, this is not the same for not using MewX. Other Pokemon aren't going to get better than MewX, but movesets can be changed and made better (just like athletes can practice harder).

Basically, what I'm saying is that we are not bound to Nintendo's rules. Dropping MewX makes the game much more fun IMO (whoa how many times have I said this now, a million?), but I'll just play people who have them anyway. At this point, it's more about my beliefs than anything else, and a challenge heighten as well. I'd have more fun beating someone who used Mewtwo if I didn't use one myself. But when I think back to many of my Pokemon battles with Bifftser in which we both agreed not to use MewX, it just reminds me how much fun Pokemon is without them.

And one last piece of redundancy before I go away for awhile. Remember how I always say that Mewtwo is used simply because he is "far and away the best Pokemon in the game?" Click here. Thank you, that is all (yes Fanha, I expect you to do a traditional quote everything and input your opinion post off of this. Those are always interesting).

------------------
"It's like the bastard lovechild of Tekken and Virtua Fighter."
-EGM, on Dead or Alive 2 for Dreamcast
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-13-2000, 06:28 AM:
 
I've been following this thread since the beginning so I might as well put in my 2 cents *_*.

First off, what exactly is cheap? An earlier poster hit the nail on the head with, "gained with little effort."

Now then, using that definition, anyone would agree that Mewtwo would be "cheap" right? It's the one Pokemon that requires the least effort of all to win. Face it, you don't have to think much when using one. All the strategy falls down to how to take it down instead.

Next up, the Chansey - Mewtwo comparison. Now this is seriously far out. First of all, Mewtwo doesn't have a single stat that falls in the pathetic hundreds (Chansey A/D). Counter with defence curl/ reflect you say? Whatever, it'll still be a lot of turns before its got decent defence (reflect is still pretty bad on Chansey anyways). Mewtwo only needs 2 turns to become an offensive/defensive powerhouse. And of course, Barrier is much better a move than any defensive move Chansey can hope to learn. And Chansey may have high special, but Mewtwo's is higher plus it can learn Amnesia. No contest. In fact, Mewtwo can be a better "chansey" than Chansey can be "Chansey". Make Molly Nut Mewtwo. Thunderwave, Seismic Toss, Double Team, Recover. ^_*

Now the Mewtwo can be used by everyone therefore its fair argument. The way I see it, a Mewtwo user VS a non-Mewtwo user is automatically unfair. *shrug*. Let's pretend that I'm playing against you in Street Fighter 2 at the arcade. Let's say to keep you from landing the winning hit, I hit your buttons so you'd make a mistake. You can do it too right? So it's all fair? Just because you can do the same thing, it doesn't change "fairness." You can disagree here, but I call a spade a spade. It's uneven. Mewtwo by being virtue of the best stats and type Pokemon in the game unbalances a match if one has it and the other doesn't.

Spelling. I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to spelling insults is rather unimaginative ^_*.

Fun. It seems here that fun means getting to use more strategy, knowing that you worked hard for a win etc etc. Using Mewtwo means less strategy needed and less work. Means less fun. Unless the only way you can have fun is by winning all the time.

Finding out who is the best. Pokemon the way I see it is a game of strategy first and foremost. Training would come into it and preserverence (to get a poke with good stats) but since you guys are using PBS, that's not a factor. That leaves pure strategy. Now since using Mewtwo requires less strategy (and shifts the battles more to luck), I'd say that skews the results a bit. The classic example of 2 Mewtwos Ice Beaming each other. Now the one who froze the other first - is he/she a better Pokemon Player with better strategy?

SpaceDog. Was he the one that suggested blasting people off to gay island? I thought it was kinda funny ^_^;;. One of the most entertaining posts in a long time I think, for some weird reason.

Mewtwo not being perfect. He may not be perfect (he is subjectable to luck after all) but he is certainly the *most* perfect out of all current 151 Pokemon. Anyone disagree? Hes is the best. Now here is the hard question. Who is second best? It's tricky isn't it? The tiers in this game due to Mewtwo are unbelievably distanced apart. That should tell you something right there. And about Tobybro's popularity. He is widely regarded as being a good Mewtwo Killer. That tells you something too. (although it wouldn't be a good M2 Killer if it was a Thunderbolting/Thunder M2 but that's a different story =p).

Since mewtwo is cheap, that makes mewtwo users cheap too. Why would you want to be called cheap? - I think that's the main reason why the Mewtwo supporters are so bent out of joint. Call their Pokemon cheap and it seems like you're calling them cheap too. But if Mewtwo really is cheap, then the player is definitely cheap too. Cheap - with little effort. Using Mewtwo to win is with little effort (or less effort).

Cheap is opinion. (round 2) Well, yeah, if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions. But the most widely known definition of cheap - that even Street Fighter players use - is a tactic or action that requires the least effort to execute - an action that 'costs' less - low risk, high reward. Going by this, Mewtwo is cheap.

TJ accusing other people of being disrespectful / rude. Let's just say that you should practise what you preach ^_*. Maybe if you read some more of your other responses you'd see what I mean.

Mewtwo is unstoppable. Well of course he isn't. But his degree of "unstoppableness" is much higher than any other Pokemon. He is not balanced. Using an unbalanced Pokemon just to win is "cheap" going by the definiton I gave twice earlier. Now since that is this whole thread is about, I guess I can say case closed.

~Ace

(I bet I opened yet another can of worms *_*)

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-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-13-2000, 06:40 AM:
 
You make an excellent point, Acey, about "Who's the second most powerful Pokemon?".

I think that just about sums up the whole argument. Only a buffoon would argue that M2 is not the most powerful Pokemon. The fact that there's any argument whatsoever about who's Number Two pretty much shows that whoever #2 is, he's not "cheap".

But #1 is clearly #1 and he's #1 by a mile.

"Cheap" has a negative connotation, so I can see how someone wouldn't want to be regarded as such, but it's a difficult argument to make that he's not much more powerful than whoever #2 is.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by Charmeleon411 (Member # 99) on 06-13-2000, 09:30 AM:
 
Methinks TeeJay and a few others have lost what this tourney is all about. Who's the best? Yeah right, PBS has about 30% skill and 70% luck involved, if it's whose the best it should actually be, "Who's the most lucky on this particular day".

It's about fun people. Who ever won the tourney would become SO arrogant to the other boards it'd be sick. We'd all hate each other and become enimies of each other, not friends. If you all precieve this tourney is some "war" for supremicy, I pity you all.

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"I gave you all a plate of corn muffins to rate my team..."
-Charmeleon411-

 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-13-2000, 11:06 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Acey:
SpaceDog. Was he the one that suggested blasting people off to gay island? I thought it was kinda funny ^_^;;. One of the most entertaining posts in a long time I think, for some weird reason.

Nah, it was Sneakerton. I chuckled at it myself, but it was uncalled for.
 
Posted by Fish (Member # 267) on 06-13-2000, 11:42 AM:
 
Shut up, Brian, I am on to you...
O.o

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"California is the Japan of America." -Jim Webber (aka VaporeonsHaze) on how there are a high number of respected trainers residing in California
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-13-2000, 12:10 PM:
 
Huh? Fish, have you been getting drunk and then posting on Azure again?
 
Posted by Charmeleon411 (Member # 99) on 06-13-2000, 12:26 PM:
 
Errm, who's the "Brian" you refer to? I hope it's not me (that is my real name), if so, you're some scary drunk stalker...

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"I gave you all a plate of corn muffins to rate my team..."
-Charmeleon411-

 


Posted by SpaceDog (Member # 35) on 06-13-2000, 01:39 PM:
 
Wow Acey, I wish I would have thought of that argument before typing page-long rebuttals. That would have saved me a LOT of time. ^_^ I guess we all got so distracted in replying to one another that we forgot the real argument. And since "cheap" is an opinion, we probably just won't come up with a compromise. Which is pretty much why I stopped debating in this topic.

And all you tourney guys: If this tournament is to show who has the most SKILL, then why use the pokemon that requires the least skill of all? I'm not saying you need to use total crap, but still...Mewtwo requires little skill to be effective. I'd rather see you beat me with something I wouldn't expect. If you can sweep me with a Beedrill, then I'll never doubt your skills again. (I've done that before, btw. There's no better feeling in the world than winning with crappy pokemon. ^_^)

Oh, one more thing I hate about Mewtwo is that he limits the game somewhat. If Mewtwo is allowed in the tourneys, then everyone will have just about the same team: A Mewtwo, a Mew, a Snorlax, a Starmie/Slowbro, an Exeggutor, and a Ground type/Electric type/Chansey. And some pokemon that are actually pretty good will get totally neglected, thanks to Mewtwo usage. Like Tentacruel, Gengar, Venusaur, Victreebel, Poliwrath, Machamp, Tangela, etc. I think by getting rid of Mewtwo, we can free the game up a bit.

"Free your mind, and the rest will follow. Can you dig?"

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Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-13-2000, 02:49 PM:
 
Wow, acey. I think you hit the mark right on this time. Fahna, I just don't see your POV, as cool as you are. As acey said, "if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions."

I'm sorry for being so immature, but it is just soo... fun.

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AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew
 


Posted by Kobayashi (Member # 313) on 06-13-2000, 02:52 PM:
 
Fahna posted one good reason against Mew.

These are the 'weaknesses' of Mewtwo.

1.Bug. from who? A Pin Missile from Jolteon who has low attack? The part posion Beedrill? As for Scyther(who i don't think learns any Bug moves anyway) and Parasect Ice Beam/Blizzard is a very common sight on a Mewtwo.

2.Average Defense. Use 'Hard hitting attacking moves' No, most pokemon that have high attack have low special, coupled with his speed Mewtwo can finish off any hard hitting pokemon. Plus the fact he learns Barrier.

3.He can be Parazyled. So what? He can be Frozen and put to Sleep too. Just because stat modifiers give you a chance against Mewtwo this doesn't make a big enough weakness to allow him. And in Statuim Substiute stops these from working, the only way to get a hit on him is to use a 'trode, and we have alrady gone over having to have pokemon in your team.

Mewtwo's weaknesses are so small and can all be countered against.

Fahna, you sometimes say Mewtwo with Anmesia is cheap, correct? And that you don't use Anmesia on your Mewtwo? Why? If your going to be cheap you might aswell do it properly.

On a side note this is the biggest topic i've seen on Azure, i wonder if it will hit 100, the fact that neither side look like giving in it could do...

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"I don't hate the man, but I pity the fool" - Mr. T
 


Posted by TeeJay (Member # 265) on 06-13-2000, 04:58 PM:
 
And in Statuim Substiute stops these from working,

This and all the rest of your things with moves Mewtwo can have. You keep forgetting that he can only have 4 moves. Let's see here, you're paranoid of Sub and Barrier and Amnesia at the same time. That would mean he has no attacks, unless he ditches Recover! See, he can't have it ALL, and one attack on a Mewtwo probably wouldn't cut it IMO.

Fahna, you sometimes say Mewtwo with Anmesia is cheap, correct? And that you don't use Anmesia on your Mewtwo? Why? If your going to be cheap you might aswell do it properly.

Nah, he adds insult to injury when his Mewtwo rightly explodes in your own Mewtwo's face. Is that cheap? Nah, it's kinda funny.

------------------
Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-13-2000, 05:10 PM:
 
I'm going to completely stop arguing...only to defend myself.

When the 32 members of this tourney vote....we shall see...i hope azure doesnt chicken out just because they cant beat out without mewtwo's...and i think the mewtwo users are the ones who are disrespecting azure themselves...I wish Mr. K was in this tourney...he can show the other boards what a real azure-style beatdown is like..

By using mewtwo,YOU are making the other boards disrespect you.

And fanha....char backed me up on the resorting to spelling correction...you have me confused with teejay,the one who actually tried to insult me because i made a typo somewhere...

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-13-2000, 09:37 PM:
 
OK, a couple of things to say.

Argo: Who's weaker? The person that uses Mewtwo, or the person who bans him because he's afraid of losing to him?

Or the person who can't fight his own battles? *coughyoucough*

The person who generalized teams: Not so. My team with Mewtwo was Electrode, Magneton, Zapdos, Vaporeon, Rapidash, and Mewtwo, and Fahna can back me up on this. No Exeggutor. No Starmie. No Toby-Bro. No Mew.

And I use Mewtwo as back-up anyway. The only time Fahna even saw him was when he had his own out, fully Amnesia-d, because I know none of my others left (I believe I had Vaporeon at half health and out of attacking PP, a perfect Rapidash, and Mewtwo left), so I used Mewtwo. I use him when I need to get out of a jam.

I don't see why the level difference is such a big deal. It may make a difference in Pika, but NOT POKE, folks. Most people don't even play 55/50/50. I, myself play 53/52/50. 52/52/51 and 53/51/51 are also popular combos.

I'll be happy the day I see a Poke team posted here by someone who thinks Mewtwo is cheap.

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--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-13-2000, 11:12 PM:
 
I've been following this thread since the beginning so I might as well put in my 2 cents *_*.

Alright, waddya have to say.

First off, what exactly is cheap? An earlier poster hit the nail on the head with, "gained with little effort."

It didn't take me much effort to gain Snorlax or Rattata. Unless you mean the moveset, in which case you have to use a few TMs (as with Tobybro, mind you).

Now then, using that definition, anyone would agree that Mewtwo would be "cheap" right? It's the one Pokemon that requires the least effort of all to win. Face it, you don't have to think much when using one. All the strategy falls down to how to take it down instead.

I strategize how to take ANYTHING down, from Chansey to Charizard. Mewtwo is no exception.


Next up, the Chansey - Mewtwo comparison. Now this is seriously far out. First of all, Mewtwo doesn't have a single stat that falls in the pathetic hundreds (Chansey A/D).

How about Arcanine?


Counter with defence curl/ reflect you say? Whatever, it'll still be a lot of turns before its got decent defence (reflect is still pretty bad on Chansey anyways).

With T-wave, you simply need to recharge after getting hit. Hopefully, you have Minimize or Double Team on it. If not; well, that's like Mewtwo without Amnesia. I've never seen my Chansey lose more than 3/5 of its HP to an attack other than Hyper Beam or Explosion, and they can take out much more than Chansey.

Mewtwo only needs 2 turns to become an offensive/defensive powerhouse. And of course, Barrier is much better a move than any defensive move Chansey can hope to learn.

Tobybro learns Amnesia, too. It can roll over pretty much anything, except lucky CH'ing T-bolters.

And Chansey may have high special, but Mewtwo's is higher plus it can learn Amnesia. No contest. In fact, Mewtwo can be a better "chansey" than Chansey can be "Chansey". Make Molly Nut Mewtwo. Thunderwave, Seismic Toss, Double Team, Recover. ^_*

So Mewtwo can counter itself. So it's better than Chansey. Point?

Now the Mewtwo can be used by everyone therefore its fair argument. The way I see it, a Mewtwo user VS a non-Mewtwo user is automatically unfair. *shrug*. Let's pretend that I'm playing against you in Street Fighter 2 at the arcade. Let's say to keep you from landing the winning hit, I hit your buttons so you'd make a mistake. You can do it too right? So it's all fair? Just because you can do the same thing, it doesn't change "fairness." You can disagree here, but I call a spade a spade. It's uneven. Mewtwo by being virtue of the best stats and type Pokemon in the game unbalances a match if one has it and the other doesn't.

What if I have Tobybro and my opponent doesn't? Is that fair? Should we have identical teams in order to MAKE it fair?

Spelling. I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to spelling insults is rather unimaginative ^_*.

I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to insulting spelling insults is rather unimaginative.

Fun. It seems here that fun means getting to use more strategy, knowing that you worked hard for a win etc etc. Using Mewtwo means less strategy needed and less work. Means less fun. Unless the only way you can have fun is by winning all the time.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder; this argument is moot. Let's argue about the best color.

Finding out who is the best. Pokemon the way I see it is a game of strategy first and foremost. Training would come into it and preserverence (to get a poke with good stats) but since you guys are using PBS, that's not a factor. That leaves pure strategy. Now since using Mewtwo requires less strategy (and shifts the battles more to luck), I'd say that skews the results a bit. The classic example of 2 Mewtwos Ice Beaming each other. Now the one who froze the other first - is he/she a better Pokemon Player with better strategy?

The classic example of Tobybro Surfing everything. If the opponent gets a locky CH, is he/she a better Pokémon player with better strategy?


SpaceDog. Was he the one that suggested blasting people off to gay island? I thought it was kinda funny ^_^;;. One of the most entertaining posts in a long time I think, for some weird reason.

Yer gay. Haha. Not funny? Aw, darn.

Mewtwo not being perfect. He may not be perfect (he is subjectable to luck after all) but he is certainly the *most* perfect out of all current 151 Pokemon. Anyone disagree? He is the best. Now here is the hard question. Who is second best? It's tricky, isn't it? The tiers in this game due to Mewtwo are unbelievably distanced apart. That should tell you something right there. And about Tobybro's popularity. He is widely regarded as being a good Mewtwo Killer. That tells you something too. (although it wouldn't be a good M2 Killer if it was a Thunderbolting/Thunder M2 but that's a different story =p).

He's a good Everything Killer. Even a Water/Ice type will only reduce his attacks to normal power, with 4* Amnesia bonus and 1/4* Type bonus.

Since mewtwo is cheap, that makes mewtwo users cheap too. Why would you want to be called cheap? - I think that's the main reason why the Mewtwo supporters are so bent out of joint. Call their Pokemon cheap and it seems like you're calling them cheap too. But if Mewtwo really is cheap, then the player is definitely cheap too. Cheap - with little effort. Using Mewtwo to win is with little effort (or less effort).

With little effort against what?


Cheap is opinion. (round 2) Well, yeah, if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions. But the most widely known definition of cheap - that even Street Fighter players use - is a tactic or action that requires the least effort to execute - an action that 'costs' less - low risk, high reward. Going by this, Mewtwo is cheap.

Going by that, Tobybro is cheap. He's weak to CH'ing T-bolts, as Mewtwo is weak to Danced Leech Lifes.

TJ accusing other people of being disrespectful / rude. Let's just say that you should practise what you preach ^_*. Maybe if you read some more of your other responses you'd see what I mean.

Mewtwo is unstoppable. Well of course he isn't. But his degree of "unstoppableness" is much higher than any other Pokemon. He is not balanced. Using an unbalanced Pokemon just to win is "cheap" going by the definiton I gave twice earlier. Now since that is this whole thread is about, I guess I can say case closed.

<sarcasm>
I thought most cases involved prosecution AND defense. Isn't that kinda disrespectful, and a little rude? Maybe you should practise what you preach.
</sarcasm>

'Much higher' is a pretty shaky term. Tobybro is an awfully powerful Pokémon.


I'm afraid I'd have to agree with TeeJay.

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COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-13-2000, 11:18 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:
I wish Mr. K was in this tourney...he can show the other boards what a real azure-style beatdown is like..

I think the only thing that would get beaten down is my team.

If we assume my opponent is using even a small amount of strategy, I don't stand a chance.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but if you take away the Box Trick advantage and the lack of strategic opponents, my team is screwed.

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KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-13-2000, 11:26 PM:
 
Na, numbers and realities back up facts. Concepts and ponderings back up opinions. There's a big difference. Talk to your
English teacher if you need help with figuring out the difference.

Or you can ask your math teachers. 1+1=2, right? Probably, but where's the proof? THERE IS NONE! You can't prove that! It is accepted in the framework of MATH. Just like this argument, in which mewtwo, is cheap. That is a FACT in this framework. You say, "that's just an opinion?? I could just as easily say, "I don't believe in numbers, they aren't real and are just imaginary things in people's heads." can you give me irrefutable proof that I'm wrong me wrong? No? understand? There is NO argument whether mewtwo is cheap. just thought I'd clarify that.

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AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-13-2000, 11:27 PM:
 
I really wish you guys would include the name of the person you're responding to. Just responding to boldface and changing authors every line makes keeping the arguments straight difficult.

Anyway, I only wanted to add one thing. Fanha said:

quote:
...that is what this topic is mainly about; the cheapness of AMNESIA Mewtwos.

I totally disagree with that. A Mewtwo can totally kick ass without Amnesia. Mewtwo's Special is high enough that it doesn't even need to use it to kick ass.

Fanha continues to downplay M2's strength.

I no longer believe that he really truly believes Mewtwo is not cheap. He's a smart guy.

He's either arguing just because he likes to argue, as a psychological defense mechanism...or he's just yanking our chains.

No one talking straight would try and tell anyone with any sense that Mewtwo isn't cheap.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-14-2000, 01:12 AM:
 

Since my html is off and I'm too lazy to turn it on I'll enclose quotes in the >>> K? No wait, I'll try this UBB code stuff. Hope it works ... (is it possible to turn on html?)

Aw, but you're generalizing. Strategy is in the eye of the beholder, in this case. My kamikaze Mewtwo takes a lot of strategy to play, and it blows the Amnesiac ones away.

Errr. I wouldn't call "Thunderwave, explode, hyper beam", "a lot of strategy." Anything that let's you have an automatic predefined set of actions isn't much strategy.

There are more than Amnesia Mewtwos (though that is what this topic is mainly about; the cheapness of AMNESIA Mewtwos).

Errrr. No. It was about "Mewtwo." I've been arguing about Mewtwo in general not about any specific moveset. (like the title of this thread). I've talked about quite a bit of other moves. Nowhere have I said that I was only talking about Amnesia Mewtwos.

And like I said, he's not that hard to take down. Paralyze, explode, Hyper Beam, and that's the end. It's impossible for the Mewtwo to counter, with a switch being the only way out. If he does that, he comes back in paralyzed, so you get 2 free shots to finish him.

Your Mewtwo falls down to "Grep." And even if your moves worked, the Mewtwo player can wait until you have a paralyzed poke out, let his pokemon die, put Mewtwo out, then he gets a turn to recover. Your Mewtwo also falls down to Doubleteaming Mewtwos. I'd like to see you self destruct only to miss =p

Huh? I don't think this metaphore was very accurate. It would be more like you having a powerful fighter that could sit and pump its special attacks up, but takes more damage when hit by regular hits.

Doesn't amnesia Mewtwo take less damage as it pumps up? If you're talking about physical fighters ... most really great physical fighters are weak to Mewtwo. The only ones that aren't have to pump up ... and Mewtwo is faster than all the good physical pokes out there.

You decide to not use him. You've put YOURSELF at the disadvantage, because you had the choice to use him. Of course, we're not chosing only 1 here, but I can't stretch a metaphore "phorever"

The key words being that you are at a disadvantage that you didn't pick Mewtwo. Remember the title of the thread. This is an argument about Mewtwo's "cheapness".

Ah, butthat is YOUR definition of fun. And the Mewtwo meaning less strategy and less fun is an opinion because you are using an opinionated definition of fun. And like I said, if you can't have fun with any team, maybe Pokemon isn't your game. I can have fun with Mewtwo, without Mewtwo, etc.

Okay then, what is your definition of fun? I tried to pick one that most Pokemon players can agree with (at least the ones who think they can't have fun unless they win). It wasn't necessarily *my* definiton of fun.

And what is this "if you can't have fun with any team, maybe pokemon isnt your game?" That's ridiculous. First, you're aiming this at me - it sounds suspiciously like an insult, and if not, you're being terribly arrogant. Nowhere have I said anything about me personally, but if you must know, I *do* have Mewtwos and know how to play them. That is the reason I know how powerful it is. But I also know that when I use him, I don't have to think much. But I do have a lot of fun when I play against them (I register a team with my most powerful pokes with 2 Mewtwos on Pokesta and then try to beat them with my others - without using M2 myself).

Here's a point to ponder. Why do you think most people have trouble beating Poke Cup rather than Prime Cup in Pokesta? The reason is that no one can use Mewtwo. But Prime Cup is a cinch if you do use him (notice that when people try to get Surfing Pikachu they always have Mewtwo on their team). Mewtwo makes Pokemon easy/er.

One last thing. Would you have much fun if someone made you use a Magikarp, Kakuna, Metapod, Farfetchd, Eevee, Machop team in a tourney? Using your logic, if you can't have fun with that, maybe Pokemon isn't your game? See how insulting that is?

Of course, I can have fun using a Pikachu, but that's a different story *_*.


Your "Mewtwo requiring less strategy" arguement seems rather tainted, considering it is an opinion you are basing it around.

If you're going to go against my statements, please provide a reason why they're wrong. The above is the equivalent of just saying - your opinion is wrong. Fine, but I'd like to see *why* it's wrong. I thought I gave a rather reasonable definition of cheap as most people would see it as.

And Pokemon is NOT entirely about strategy, it is also about LUCK. If my Mewtwo got fully paralyzed 4 times in a row (yes, it's happened), would I necessarily say you have good strategy to beat Mewtwo? The answer is no, on the basic of luck, anyone can beat anything normally. Your arguement goes both ways.

Yes, there is luck, but there is also such a thing as *probability*. Pokemon Players have to know the probability of certain outcomes and base their strategy around that. Working with probabilities takes skill. As for your situation of paralyzed 4 times in a row, that has a 1/4 to the power of 4 of happening - 1/256 chance. You were terribly unlucky but face it, it's not likely to happen. But what you probably should have done is switch out when you saw how terribly unlucky you were being.

Basically your "anything can beat anything due to luck" argument is kinda flimsy. It's possible to happen but the chances are astronomically small. It's like saying a caterpie with tackle is a Mewtwo killer because there is a chance that all Mewtwo's moves will miss while you beat up on it. It's not worth arguing about. When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor*. It isn't hard to grasp that.

And how do you define perfection? That's been a philosophical and moral topic since the beginning of time.

Bleh. Perfection in Pokemon is rather easy to define - as long as your goal is you want to win. Mewtwo simply gives you far and away, the best options and chances to provide that win out of all 151 Pokemon.


Mew could also be considered "most perfect" because he can learn the most moves in the game and he has perfectly rounded stats.

Ah, but does that versatility mean you have the best chances of all to win? Versatility is nothing unless you have the power to put it to use and Mew's stats while being rounded are hardly powerhouse. Swords Dance recitfies this somewhat, but it needs 3 turns to do that and Mew doesn't exactly have the best defensive capabilities.

Mew is very good, but he still ain't got nothing on Mewtwo. In this way he can be considered, "second tier" in rankings. Many other Pokemon can be considered second tier. No other Pokemon can be considered first tier on par with Mewtwo.

And no I'd have to say Mew is EASILY second best Pokemon in the game to Mewtwo, and closely following many others such as Chansey, Snorlax, Slowbro, Exeggutor, and many others.

I disagree. There is a time and place for every Pokemon, any of those others you mention could be the best option depending on the situation. Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation.

(and no, I'm not just talking about amnesia mewtwos with one attack - Mewtwo in general please, don't put words in my mouth)


Opinionated again. Like I said, T-wave, Explosion, Hyper Beam; little effort to defeat. That's how "cheap" Mewtwo is .

You don't seem to realise that you're putting across opinions too. But anyway the key phrase here is "little effort to defeat". That is one of the key definitions of "cheap". And what pokemon did you put these moves on? Hmmm Mewtwo? I rest my case.


Me: Cheap is opinion. (round 2) Well, yeah, if you get down to it, all phrases can be opinions. But the most widely known definition of cheap - that even Street Fighter players use - is a tactic or action that requires the least effort to execute - an action that 'costs' less - low risk, high reward. Going by this, Mewtwo is cheap.

You: No Pokemon "costs" anything short of a slot on your team. Amnesia "costs" time, thus it's a matter of opinion if the better move is Explosion which costs no time or Amnesia/Psychic.

I don't think you got the idea. Please read what I wrote again. Oh and do you consider Explosion a better move than Amnesia? By the way, I should remind you that no self-destruct/explosion move can KO Mewtwo in one hit unless it's a critical.

Now reread what I wrote. I gave a definition of cheap - the best one I could gather given what most people consider to be cheap.

Now, if that isn't cheap, I'd like you to give an alternate definition of cheap ...


1. The only "balanced" Pokemon are Mew and Ditto; perfectly similar stats, and all-or-nothing TM compliance.

I don't think you got what I mean by "balanced". Balanced means that every pokemon has the capability/potential of every other pokemon at the highest level of play. Balanced in the context I used it does not mean balanced stats. I have no idea where you got that idea from...

But since you brought it up, Mewtwo has unbalanced stats compared to every other pokemon in the game too.


Mewtwo cannot be gauged on "unstobbableness", because, as with perfection, you need a control of what IS unstoppable to define how close to unstoppable he is. For example, a Slowbro may die to Thunderbolt or the like, but a Mewtwo is MUCH more succeptible to physical attacks than Slowbro; that's a whole 'nother CATEGORY of types.

I wouldn't call an odd 30-40 stat points higher in defence much more susceptible to physical attacks. Think of it this way - there is a range of stats one can hold in defence such that most pokemon can damage them significantly with physcial attacks. With Mewtwo, sure, his defence is his lowest stat but that doesn't mean he has crappy defence - far from it. He has above average defence and great HP. Plus you forget that Mewtwo can learn barrier if the Mewtwo player was this afraid of physical attacks. Or he can learn doubleteam. Sword danced swift can touch him but it's still pretty weak in the scheme of things.

if the opponent has Snorlax and such but no Electric or Grass attacks on the team, Slowbro would do better.

Not if Snorlax had thunderbolt. By the way, you attach an 'if' clause (if no electric or grass). No matter the moveset, Slowbro will still die to (good) electric or grass (all other things being equal). Mewtwo has no similar clause attached to him.


If the team were all special attacks, Mewtwo would be better.

Mewtwo can be better in every single situation. Everthing that Slowbro can do, Mewtwo can do better. Sure, he may not have water moves, but ice is almost the same thing anyways. Plus there is the little liability of being a water type that Slowbro has. A good grass or electric pokemon means Slowbro's doom all other things being equal (which does not mean you get to start off with a fully powered up TobyBro and the electric starts off from null)

The reason why unstoppable and perfect cannot be gauged is that they are situational and what is unstoppable or perfect changes.

But Mewtwo has capability of being unstoppable in *every* situation. No other Pokemon can do this (as well as Mewtwo I should probably disclaim). Every Pokemon has a glaring weakness - Mewtwo has weaknesses but none are glaring and some are so pathetic you wouldn't even know it was a weakness until the text told you (Pin Missile? Super effective? Really?).

Nah, bad analogy. We can both use Mewtwos because it was intended for us to. The programmers of Street Fighter didn't intend for you to sit there and hit the other players controller. Although I did that to someone at an arcade once, he thought he would win a driving game and took his hands off, so I leaned over and crashed him into the wall, hehe.

I admit it wasn't the best analogy but it was just the most extreme one I could think of that put the point across. Just because both people can do something, it doesn't mean it's fair. But these are all opinions. My personal one is that as soon as someone has an advantage another person doesn't, it's unfair. A Mewtwo-user fighting a non-Mewtwo-user, that is unfair - even though the non-Mewtwo-user didn't sell out and use Mewtwo. At that moment in time he is at a disadvantage. That is what makes the game so challenging for the non-Mewtwo-user - he/she is fighting against the odds.

But the above is kinda irrelevant to the main argument - is Mewtwo really cheap? Well, if the game is considerably skewed towards the Mewtwo user - you know what my answer is.

By the way, when you steered the other guy into a wall, that was pretty cheap (heh).


Unimaginative, yes. Even more unimaginative, using that statement in an arguement where it has no place. I say one wrong thing, and out of all the wrong things everyone else has said, I get picked on. What I said should have stopped in that post, you have no purpose to carry it on.

Heheh .. sorry. But you should know by now that anyone who picks on spelling of all things ... well they get jumped on themselves. Spelling corrections have their place - fanfic revisions, english assignments - but in an argument, it's just being petty. As long as you got the gist of what the other person was saying, that's fine. And picking on spelling in an internet argument is a cliche - it's been overdone so much that no one can really take it seriously anymore. By the way, there was a purpose in picking on you - so that other people can see that spelling mistake correction is kind of a no-no ^_*

Opinion. Besides, read my war story. That was a very fun battle, and Mewtwo and Mew, even though on my team, never came out. I use them as backup or if I need to win. I believe it to be more fun like that, others may not.

Okay, what is your opinion of fun (in Pokemon)? Would you have more fun if you worked very hard for a win and at the end won by the slimmest margin? Would you have more fun if getting to win meant thinking at a high level of strategy?

By the way, the words sticking out are, "if I need to win." The topic is Mewtwo cheapness. What does that tell you?


You're probably assuming everyone has the moveset
Ice Beam, T-bolt, Amnesia, Recover.

Um. No. Where did I say that? You're just putting words in my mouth and that has even less place in an argument than insulting someone's spelling. (sorry I can't seem to drop it ^_*).

There are several high strategy Mewtwo movesets, but you're too busy complaining about this one to make your own. Ask Fanha about his Mewtwo moveset.

Um. In where was I complaining? I'm simply debating whether Mewtwo is cheap. Nowhere have I whined that you shouldn't use Mewtwo. The only thing I'm doing is plainly pointing out a spade as a spade.

As for high strategy moveset for Mewtwo ... examples? I don't consider Fanha's moveset very strategic. You don't need much strategy when working with the best materials to come up with something winning.

By the way TJ, when you complain about other people being rude, do you realise that this is exactly what you're doing now? You're assuming a lot of things about me when you have no real basis to.

Yes he is, but take out Mewtwo, and then there will be ANOTHER *most* perfect Pokemon that everyone complains about, who requires the LEAST skill. Something will always be the most perfect and require the least skill.

Actually no. Sure there will always be something that requires the least skill ... but that least skill required is tremendous when compared to the amount of skill you need when you have a good Mewtwo under your belt.

That is what I mean by the first and second tiers in the rankings are so far apart. It's like Mewtwo is sitting on a throne all alone and all the second best are kissing his feet.

I would have to say Mew, just because he kills Mewtwo much more than vice versa. But don't forget, Dragonite is tied with Mew in stats, and several others are within a range of 50.

Really? Mews kill Mewtwos much more than vice versa? What moveset does the Mew have and was it started off "all other things being equal"? That is to say, Mew was much more powered up than Mewtwo was when they started fighting? Was Mew specifically designed to kill a Mewtwo with a known movset?

By the way, your second statement actually helps my position out. The second tier as even you see it are all quite close to each other.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I'm not gonna put it on this post, but if you like, I could take tons of quotes found on the boards and ICQ logs that could easily show you, I am mild compared to some others.

I'm sure you could, but I am going by unbiased evidence I see right here. And if tons of other people are more mean than you, does that make you justified to be the same way?

It seems that you people like to point out everything wrong that I do and flame me instead of make some useful arguements. Ah, if it's your style.

Well, maybe they wouldn't flame you if you didn't act so condescending and arrogant. No offence.


This and all the rest of your things with moves Mewtwo can have. You keep forgetting that he can only have 4 moves. Let's see here, you're paranoid of Sub and Barrier and Amnesia at the same time. That would mean he has no attacks, unless he ditches Recover! See, he can't have it ALL, and one attack on a Mewtwo probably wouldn't cut it IMO.

The point here is that Mewtwo is the king of versatility. Like in a post I started eons ago, there are no real Mewtwo-killers because Mewtwo has a counter moveset to every single thing that had a chance to take him on. You can't say the same for any other pokemon, except for the possibility of Mew. But even then he doesn't have as much power to back himself up as Mewtwo does and requires more work on his part to actually win.

Nah, he adds insult to injury when his Mewtwo rightly explodes in your own Mewtwo's face. Is that cheap? Nah, it's kinda funny.

It wouldn't be funny if you exploded just when the Mewtwo player predicted it and switched to a Rhydon or something similar ... or if it missed due to double team. And using Mewtwo to kill another Mewtwo is just missing the point. When you have to use the same pokemon to beat something, it tells you something about that pokemon.

Well, anyway, I know there is a third page of arguments that I haven't got to yet, but since my proxy is acting like a Mewtwo *grin* I don't yet see it. When I do, I'll try to put my view on those too. Unfortunately ^_*.

Oh, and I hope the UBB code worked otherwise you'll be seeing a lot of square brackets with b in them ...

Cyas!

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-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-14-2000, 03:24 AM:
 
First of all, before I forget, Acey, I don't include HTML, because I don't want the nonsense that breaks out on other forums to take over here. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I have to be over-protective.

As we've seen here already, given even a small chance to be annoying, people will do it (eg, using excessive images with the UBB code).

Your post came out great...just remember...square brackets...

Anyway...


quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:
There is pretty much no way a Mewtwo without Amnesia can take down a Chansey or several other Pokemon when played strategically well and without uneven luck.

Not that much uneven luck. Mewtwo has a high crit hit rate, and if he's got Psychic, he can fairly consistently undo what Amnesia does. I've been in a couple situations where Snorlax could just not overcome a Mewtwo blasting away with Psychic.

Mewtwo does not need Amnesia to slaughter a team. The fact that he has access (and that smart players take advantage of this), just makes him even more unfair.

quote:
A Mewtwo without Amnesia is like a Chansey-and-a-half.

So, a Mewtwo without Amnesia is still much tougher than a legit Mewtwo killer. Exactly my point.

quote:
Are you saying that half the people in this debate including me, TeeJay, Rolken, MewtwoSama, EYNH, AznExplosion (one of your own mods), and several others I don't remember don't have any sense?

If you (and they) are honestly trying to tell me that Mewtwo is not cheap (or some other word of similar meaning), then, yes. You (or they) either have no sense, or are not being honest with me (or yourself/themselves).

See my other post in the Azure Pokemon Center (Mathematics of Cheap...or something) to see what I mean.

By the way, this thread should probably be over there too, but it does occasionaly revert to discussion of the actual competition, so I'll leave it here...

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory

[This message has been edited by Mr. K (edited 06-14-2000).]
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-14-2000, 03:53 AM:
 
This post is getting so long that you could almost publish it as a book. Call it, like "The Great Mewtwo Debate" or something.

Acey, you make some incredible points here. Nice posts.

Fanha, I think Mr. K was right when he mentioned the chain-yanking thing. I mean, I greatly respect your skills as a debater, but some of these arguments that TobyBro is just as good as Mewtwo? These are pushing it.

And did Argo run off? Hmmm...could someone post in a bold easy to read text an update of who's on which side now? I'm getting confused again.

I'm getting tired, and I have to wake up at a reasonable hour tomorrow so Biffster can come over to my house in the morning and play me in Pokemon (challenge time). C ya.

------------------
"It's like the bastard lovechild of Tekken and Virtua Fighter."
-EGM, on Dead or Alive 2 for Dreamcast
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-14-2000, 05:20 AM:
 
Yay, the UBB code worked! Oh, and thanx Mr K for explaining about the html. Yea I can get what you mean about posting images. I have some boards too but I don't really care what goes on them as long as there's no hentai stuff being posted (but right now, a concerned mother just emailed me telling me there is a bisexual pervert trying to pick up underage girls at my Ash/Pikachu site - that never gets updated- but that's a different story *_*).

Just some random replies:

Fanha: Na, numbers and realities back up facts. Concepts and ponderings back up opinions. There's a big difference. Talk to your English teacher if you need help with figuring out the difference.

Avtually, facts are the ones that back up opinions. I don't see how concepts and ponderings can back up *anything*. By the way, when you're in an argument, insults and arrogance tends to make you look bad. Just a tip.

Amnesia seems to be the main point of this arguement.

No. See that header? Right now I could say, "If you can't read it maybe you should consult *your* English Teacher." J/K ^-^. See, I can play the insult game too, but I won't because if I wanted to do that I'd go back to usenet =p. Azure is meant to be more mature I think ...

Enter your name here: Argo: Who's weaker? The person that uses Mewtwo, or the person who bans him because he's afraid of losing to him?

Who said anyone was afraid to lose to him? I gather the main reason why most people want to ban Mewtwo is that he lessens strategy, effort and fun and skews battles toward luck. It also lessens Pokemon choice. Just because of Mewtwo several types are automatically worthless. Your projection of "oh they just want to ban Mewtwo because they're too crap to beat one." Not so.

Me: First off, what exactly is cheap? An earlier poster hit the nail on the head with, "gained with little effort."

Rolken: It didn't take me much effort to gain Snorlax or Rattata. Unless you mean the moveset, in which case you have to use a few TMs (as with Tobybro, mind you).

Neither. If you read more of what I wrote, you'd have seen that it's the *victory* that is gained with little effort. I thought it was obvious ...

[bTobybro learns Amnesia, too. It can roll over pretty much anything, except lucky CH'ing T-bolters.[/b]

Venusaur and Victreebell can roll over it with Razor Leaf. Jolteon w/ Focus Energy. Lapras with thunderbolt. Starmie with thunderbolt. Anything with doubleteam and PP waste you. Also, you seem to think that someone packing these anti-tobybros will let it power up for free. No one with an ounce of sense will let you go that far. And even if it had fully powered up, Venusaur and Jolteon still has a chance to kill it outright.

You know, I really don't get this Tobybro worship. It has several glaring weaknesses that can be exploited (all of the above). It is hardly the second-best pokemon or even the third-best. It's not even a good Mewtwo killer if the Mewtwo had doubleteam or thunderbolt/thunder. Basically, if the other person knows about Tobybro and you use it, it can be really easily countered against.

Okay, just for fun, I'll produce some mock battles.

VS Jolteon

Jolteon: Focus Energy
Toby: Thunderwave
Toby: Amnesia
Jolteon: Thunderbolt

Game.

What if Toby had earthquake? Let's assume he loses thunderwave for it.

Jolteon: Focus Energy
Toby w/ Quake: Earthquake
Jolteon loses almost half life.
Jolteon: Thunderbolt/Thunder

Game.

Okay, let's assume you have a pokemon weak to toby when you both put it out.

Pokemon1: Switch to Jolteon
Toby: Thunderwave
Jolteon is paralyzed.
Toby: Amnesia
Jolteon: Focus Energy
Toby: Amnesia or surf, it doesnt matter.
Jolteon: Thunderbolt/Thunder

Game.

It works even faster with Venusaur. And Starmie and Lapras with minimise/double team, recover/rest packing thunderbolt can also take Toby to school. Mewtwo with Thunderbolt/Thunder can take Toby to school. Jolteon without Focus Energy can also take Toby to school - he still has a rather high critical hit rate (second-best speed) and Toby won't have enough time to amnesia up before it gets fried.

The conclusion: Toby is not God of Pokemon. He is not even Goddess of Pokemon. If Toby is second/third/whatever - best does that mean those pokemon that can defeat him are higher up on the ladder? No, because it's all balanced. Rock, Paper, Scissors is the heart of Pokemon.

Now back to Mewtwo. Mewtwo is not Rock or Paper or Scissors. He is a nuclear missile which beats all three ^_*.

I believe anybody on the internet who resorts to insulting spelling insults is rather unimaginative.

Bleh. And someone who resorts to insulting insulting spelling insults is even more unimaginative.

Whatever, I gave my reasons for jumping on whoever it was that used the famous spelling insult trick.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder; this argument is moot. Let's argue about the best color.

Okay, what is your definition of fun in Pokemon? Anyway, the individual's sense of fun is less important than the majorities sense of fun. I guess that's why you guys have to vote on it.

The classic example of Tobybro Surfing everything. If the opponent gets a locky CH, is he/she a better Pokémon player with better strategy?

I debunked Tobybro as a God of Pokemon earlier ... you do not need to get all that lucky using the examples I gave. Heck, you could probably beat Toby with a Molly Nut bomb even ...

Going by that, Tobybro is cheap. He's weak to CH'ing T-bolts, as Mewtwo is weak to Danced Leech Lifes.

This is so ridiculous an example I'm not even going to try to argue on it ...

'Much higher' is a pretty shaky term. Tobybro is an awfully powerful Pokémon.

Sure it is. *When it powers up*. And even then, it's weaknesses still kill it. I think you place a little too much faith in it.

TJ: Mewtwo is as cheap as Tobybro, like Rolken said. Or maybe he's a little more cheap, but not much.

O_O. You are seriously deluding yourself if you believe that. No offence.


Also, take away Mewtwo. Oh my gosh! Tobybro is rippin it up because nobody has time to prepare their "anti-Toby" Pokemon in time because they didn't have it out first!

So what if they didn't have it out first? Slowbro needs 3 turns (4 inclusing thunderwave) to power up and it's still useless against its counters even if it does power up.

Tobybro is tearin everything up! The electric types can't kill it because it's already powered up! WE CAN'T STOP IT!!!

Jolteon with Focus or Jolteon with DT/Rest or Jolteon with lucky critical hitting thunderbolts/thunders (33% chance is pretty good - kinda like a one hit KO except in this case it actually is that).


Wait, there IS a way to stop it. Let's call it cheap, and bitch and complain about it until we get it outlawed! YES!!! We stopped it!

*Shrug* I think it's balanced. It has several exploitable weaknesses that can even one hit KO it. It has considerable setup time. Not so with Mewtwo.

Cyas!

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-14-2000, 05:35 AM:
 
FAHNA:Oh geez...now you're getting rediculous. If there were no such thing as a fact, technically, there could be no such thing as
language structure, reality itself, or the mathematics involved in the game of Pokemon for that matter. Now, the reason why we
can't agree about cheap is because there is no set of conditions as to what is cheap. I think it needs to be laid down as to the
exact numerics of what defines cheap; a mechanical process to determine cheapness. That is the only absolute way such a
thing can be determined.

You want "conditions"?
Here are some:
1)Highest stats in the game; highest special, above average defense, GREAT HP, darn FAST, +300 attack.
2)No REAL weaknesses.
3)Learns kick ass moves; amnesia, recover, substitute, barrier, most special attacks, (if not all).
4)Can counter most anti-mewtwo pokemon by just a change in moveset.
5)Is the best in the game(no argument with this; even you "non-anti mewtwo" people aggreed to this).

or were you reffering to "mathamatical conditions". ok, here are some.
Special > everything else
attack and defense > average
speed = second highest
TM compatability and natural move list = very high

or were you reffering to an mathamatical function that determines whether a pokemon is cheap or not.

f:cheap->(a+b+c+d+2e)/z - 1
a=HP
b=attack
c=defense
d=speed
e=special
z=the total of mewtwo's stats + e

if the function >= 0, then that pokemon is cheap, ok? (Note: this was a JOKE, don't flame me for this)

Now tell me what can counter him, consistently. Water or grass types don't cut it. Chansey? Maybe. Just get earthquake or submission. Snorlax? What a slow ass! Same with chansey, his defense sucks. Critical hits would ALSO be devastating to him.

PS:Fahna, I'd like to see that paper. It would be interesting to read.

------------------
AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-14-2000, 08:46 AM:
 
quote:
Argo: Who's weaker? The person that uses Mewtwo, or the person who bans him because he's afraid of losing to him?

EYNH,first..no one here is afraid of cheapass two..if i really have to fight one,i will..

And to answer your question,the mewtwo user,IMO is the weak one...

If anyone has to stoop that low to use cheapasstwo...they are quite the cowardly and spineless trainers...IMHO

><

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-14-2000, 11:26 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
If you (and they) are honestly trying to tell me that Mewtwo is not cheap (or some other word of similar meaning), then, yes. You (or they) either have no sense, or are not being honest with me (or yourself/themselves).


I never said Mewtwo wasn't cheap; I also never said he was.

But, if he IS considered cheap, there are certainly other Pokémon used by those considering him cheap that could also be considered cheap. Mewtwo isn't the only one.

What's the point of this argument anyway? To convince Mewtwo users not to use him? You might as well try to convince me not to use Wigglytuff or Chansey. Using Mewtwo is perfectly legitimate.

------------------
COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-14-2000, 11:37 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rolken:
But, if he IS considered cheap, there are certainly other Pokémon used by those considering him cheap that could also be considered cheap. Mewtwo isn't the only one.

Nope. Only Mewtwo is far and away the best Pokemon. Nothing else comes close.

quote:
What's the point of this argument anyway? To convince Mewtwo users not to use him?

No, of course not. Those who want to use him will continue to use him.

The whole discussion is about cheapness.

If someone uses Mewtwo, that tells me something about that player.

I think the argument started because some people claim there's no real reason to ban Mewtwo.

I think there is a very clear and very legit reason for banning him. I'm not saying he should be banned, I'm just saying that there's a very strong argument for banning him, if the players involved are concerned about cheapness.

If they aren't, then screw it. No big deal.

The only thing I will not take lying down is the idea that Mewtwo is not cheap, because that's clearly ridiculous.

quote:
Using Mewtwo is perfectly legitimate.

Well, as long as the people making the rules say he's legit, then it is, yeah. But if they want to rise above the cheap, then it doesn't have to be legit.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by Apophis (Member # 487) on 06-14-2000, 07:10 PM:
 
ok, here it is, plain and simple.

im going out on a limb here, but i have battled against other people more than all of you put together. probably ten thousand, easily.

mewtwo is NOT cheap, unless the other player has not had a chance to catch one, or have it traded to him.

saying that something is cheap is just a cop out response to getting your ass kicked.
ive learned alot on the tours, and the biggest thing is to adapt to the current styles of battling.
as soon as tobybro got big, i stopped using him, and started using electrode/sandslash/mewtwo.
electrode: twave
explosion
thunderbolt
takedown
sandslash: dig
slash
earthquake
focus energy
mewtwo: psychic
blizzard
substitute
recover

i dont say that this is the "best" team, by any means, but it did the job.

we should stop slinging mud at eachother, and agree to disagree with eachother.

just battle petite cup. its the truest test of skill, as you have to use crappy pokemon effectively. think about it!
brandon

------------------
I am Lord of this world, and the next.
My power surpasses that of any normal HUMAN.
None may contain my evil.
 


Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-14-2000, 10:30 PM:
 
Um.... I hope that's one of your teams that you use to make little kids feel happy, Apophis....

------------------
AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-15-2000, 12:32 AM:
 
Hmm...notice that all the hot-shot players use mewtwo...

Imagine how much respect they would get if they didnt use him...i mean,with ALL THAT skill..why would they need to?

Unless....that so-called skill is actually non-existant.

^ ^;;

I already probably respect dreadite ,but his use of mewtwo affects it.

I ONLY respect him for his SKILL IN BATTLE...and not the pokemon he uses bar everything but mewtwo.

Fanha....would you feel better sweeping some intermediate-experienced person's team with a mewtwo?or a...uhm...Mr. Mime.

THERE ARE ONE HUNDRED FIFTY FREGGIN ONE POKEMON IN THE GAME....USE THEM.

Bah....sorry..that was personal preference....but for some reason...i love underused pokemon....because i think everything has potential in one way or another...and i like to exploit that potential...and BOY,does it feel good winning with them.

Mr. K can vouch for this aswell i think....

Tell me,dont you think it feels great when wiggly DOES beat that popular pokemon...and hitmonlee DOES get you the win?

IMO,a Mewtwo is like Drugs.

-It's bad for you.
-It's no fun in the end.
-Once you start,you cant stop.

^ ^;;

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo

[This message has been edited by Argo (edited 06-15-2000).]
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-15-2000, 01:30 AM:
 
Fanha:So what? That's because he's a good Pokemon, and most "hot-shot" players figured out he's good, so they use him.

Hmm...it sure takes alot to figure that out,doesnt it?

I think the real masters should be enjoyable to fight,win or lose...play fair,and be humble.

Mewtwo is the opposite of all of that.

^ ^;;

Fanha:Just because you've "got skills" doesn't mean you should slack off and not put up you best. Most know it's an illogicial idea to not use Mewtwo, and the good players who decide not to understand the risk they're taking, and accept the fact that they are putting themselves at a disadvantage (ie MewtwoSama). I can respect that. But those who don't want to have that disadvantage are just whining, like you. That I can't respect. It's your choice; live with it and don't whine to us about how glum it is down your little choice road.

Risk you're taking?

Boy....by saying that,and defending mewtwo THIS long...i can obviously see you have a problem with losing...*sigh* i pity you..and yes...mewtwo IS a advantage...But only the people addicted to the win "high" of mewtwo need that advantage.

I know for a fact Fanha,you're a good trainer....not only good,but very good...why do you NEED mewtwo like a little security blanket to ensure your win which pleasures you so?

Fanha:Like I said, I have fun, win or lose, no matter what team. When I want to win, I play a serious team with Mewtwo; I have fun with that just as much as I would playing with Mr. Mime. I don't use Mr. Mime instead of Mewtwo because that plainly defies common sense if I am trying to win, and offers me no benefit considering I don't care what my team is and my "fun factor" is the same. That's why I don't. I have learned to have fun in all games, and that's why I don't feel anything about what I use. The point is, why use Mr. Mime when you can use Mewtwo? It doesn't make sense. That's like eating a sour orange instead of a ripe one; I could, but why? And I'm talking about REPLACING Mewtwo with Mr. Mime; I'm not talking about using Mr. Mime in general. And you should really get off of this "win high" concept; there's no such thing in my game.

Are you sure you have fun win OR lose?

There's no such thing as the win high in your game?

Thats what YOU think...you just dont realize it....

Wow...mewtwo is becoming more relative to drugs as we go on..

Fanha:...but you should accept the risk that you're taking of losing with them.

Risk AGAIN?Alrighty...losing is no risk..oh dear...i lose a match...big whoop...it just makes the revenge ever so sweet..

Fanha:I think your "win high" concept is probably what you experience from what you're saying...I frankly don't get tons of "different feelings" from a video game competition...

I think you do,because you are either:

-VERY scared of losing
-A win freak..which is sort of the same as the first point..


Fanha:No he's not.

- Not really.
- To you.
- Right...sure...

Okay...uhm...see that little "IMO" over there?

Yea..that means In My Opinion...

I AM justified to my opinion,arent i?

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-15-2000, 02:13 AM:
 
OK, Fanha has clearly lost his mind (and all focus on the argument) and has degenerated into nitpicking, so I'll respond to his phone book-sized post with just something small and relevant:

quote:
Mewtwo would be cheap is it gave the other player an advantage. It doesn't, because you have that same advantage.

This is a non-argument. There would be no debate whatsoever if this were the point, and you know it.

It would go something like this:

X: Mewtwo is cheap because everyone can't get one!
Y: Actually, everyone can get one.
X: Oh. Sorry. I'm wrong.

OK, so now that you realize that's not the point, I hope it doesn't come up again.

As for your comment about Slowbro/Mew being equivalently powerful to Mewtwo, now you're just being silly.

If you're going to continue to make that claim, I don't think we have any more to say to each other about this.

You've already shown me in your writing that you do believe Mewtwo is cheap. Whether you're not admitting it to yourself or just refuse to publically admit it is another matter, but it's obvious that deep down you know Mewtwo is cheap...altho you might use another word for it.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no more debate (except about fiddling details) unless someone who actually doesn't believe Mewtwo is cheap joins the discussion.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-15-2000, 04:30 AM:
 
THANK YOU, Mr. K. Thank you very much. I wish I could be as logical as you...

Fanha, your thousand page responses defending Mewtwo are giving me eyestrain. I know that a true debater reads everything, but it seems to me that you're just saying the same things over and over again, and they're not any more credible now than they were the first time they were posted.

Look, I accept Mewtwo as a part of the game, and am willing to play against it (although he/she who uses it should realize that I don't think too much of their Pokemon skills). But for you guys to kid yourself into thinking that Nintendo could NEVER make an unbalanced game is nonsense. That seems to be one of your main grounds for defense, and I don't wanna hear it.Mewtwo is not like other Pokemon, and I don't know why someone should have to continue to remind people of that.

And Fanha, give me a break. The way you claim to play Pokemon is not unlike that of a machine (i.e. You can ALWAYS have fun, but you get no joy out of beating people). I guess if playing with Mewtwo is fun for you, then go nuts. But you're just like the rest of 'em. Why don't you drop the blanket, and take the challenge that so many people on Azure already do? Fight without Mewtwo. It is so rewarding.

Argo, I like your Mewtwo to drugs analogy. Pretty funny, and so true it's scary.

I'm starting to think that this topic is gonna die off sooner than expected. How can you guys believe that playing Pokemon with Mewtwo is fun? Have you ever played Perfect Dark, SoulCalibur, and Super Smash Bros? Those are the kinds of games that show you what you could be playing other than Pokemon. Therefore, I want my Pokemon matches to be as fun/strategic as they can be. And no, I'm sorry. Mewtwo doesn't fit into that equation very well.

Do you Mewtwo supporters honestly think that it is more fun to play Pokemon with Mewtwo allowed? If you do, then I challenge you to actually try a match without said powerhouse. Unless you are hanging onto Mewtwo with dear life, you will like it better without him.

Sorry if this post comes off as angry, but I had a lot of steam to vent here. Chances are, you've heard the last or almost the last out of me on this topic.

------------------
"It's like the bastard lovechild of Tekken and Virtua Fighter."
-EGM, on Dead or Alive 2 for Dreamcast
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-15-2000, 06:30 AM:
 
Fanha:You are confusing different things. That is about how to take out Mewtwo without another Mewtwo. My own Mewtwo has Thunder Wave, Blizzard, Selfdestruct, Recover. It's a very tricky guy to play, as are all kamikazes. Gotta know when to hold 'em...and know when to blow 'em!

I'm not confusing anything. The example you gave was that your Mewtwo would selfdestruct (after paralyzing) and then you'd bring in snorlax or someone similar to hyper beam finish. Don't lie about this now! I can dig through the posts and provide proof.

Well I don't think there's much question that Mewtwo without Amnesia is NOT cheap. You either must have only played a non-Amnesia one as a newbie, or have a seriously flawed team. Without Amnesia, Mewtwo can be beaten by any powerup Pokemon: Slowbro, Mew...need I go on?

Why don't you hold off on the insults and argue honestly? By the way, a Mewtwo without amnesia can be cheap. He has high enough special without resorting to one. Simply give him doubleteam instead. M2 still has a high CH rate against "almighty" Slowbro. And don't forget, with your powerup pokemon, you have to do precisely that - powerup. Don't assume the other player is just hanging around twiddling his thumbs. We are considering *highest level of play*. If 2 players of equal skill played the game of pokemon, one with Tobybro, the other with Mewtwo w/ thunderbolt (the rest of the moves not sucking) who would win?

Like I said that's not my Mewtwo's lineup. Grep can be stalled very easily.

Don't try to switch the situation. We are talking about your self-destructing Mewtwo VS Grep. What's it gonna do, self destruct against a sub? Okay, now I know it has Blizzard. What is blizzard going to do when Grep amnesias up?

You don't need Mr super-huge attack to take down Mewtwo. An Electrode with Screech can do the job itself.

Grep kills Electrode too. Do you realise that for every anti-Mewtwo strategy you can give me, I can give a counter moveset to make Mewtwo an anti-anti-Mewtwo? Your fighting an uphill battle here.

Mewtwo would be cheap is it gave the other player an advantage. It doesn't, because you have that same advantage.

O_O ..... Somehow I think Mewtwo gives you an advantage. By the way, when you're forced to use the same Pokemon to counter a Pokemon that *is* cheap. I thought this was already debated out.

Fun is playing Pokemon for me. I have fun playing the game, no matter the team, luck, or anything else. I have fun playing Pokemon for what it is.

Remember you said that.

In Pokemon, you chose your own teams. That's part of Pokemon. A team would not be forced on me, because that's not how Pokemon works. In a similar way, I shouldn't be forced to not use certain Pokemon, because that's not part of the game either.

Do you realise here that you have just killed your own argument? Mewtwo is not cheap because the other player can use the same cheap pokemon. What's this? You're *forced* to use Mewtwo?

Any of those things is stepping outside of the generic game of Pokemon and talking about a whole 'nother type of playing style. And I could still have fun with a team like that in casual play.

In casual play now is it? Why wouldn't you have fun in tourney play? Because you want to win? Now you just told me that winning is a huge part of your fun in Pokemon. Your other example that you have fun when you beat the 'big' guys with 'small' guys or something to that effect. That involves winning too.

*Little wonder* you're arguing Mewtwo isn't cheap. It makes you look bad.

... and he is not unfair/unbalanced because you have the same resources as your opponent.

I was gonna argue against this too before I realised its only the same argument reworded. Bleh.

By the way, the opinion I took is the *majority's* opinion of what has always been considered to be cheap. Heck it's even in the dictionary.

Na, there's no such thing as "unlucky streaks".

Um. No. Anytime something unlucky happens in a row, that is an unlucky streak.

You still only have the 1/4 chance each time. Switching out doesn't change anything.

Hmmm? So switching in an unparalyzed poke means that it gets fully paralyzed too?

Mewtwo doesn't change luck.

Stop trying to reword I say into something you can argue against.

(When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor*) is not equal to (Mewtwo changes luck)

But he is not perfect.

Did anyone say that or argue it? You're changing the argument again. Since Mewtwo is the best, he can be considered the most perfect out of all the Pokemon. This isn't the same thing as being outright perfect.

Like I said before: Mewtwo simply gives you far and away, the best options and chances to provide that win out of all 151 Pokemon.

If you dispute that, I'm going to have to conclude you a fool. No offence intended of course as I know you're pretty smart and probably don't believe that Mewtwo isn't the best.

In fact, Mew doesn't share Mewtwo's defensive weakness. Mewtwo, in reality, is more vulnerable.

The official Mew's defence stat is 270 if I recall correctly. You call Mewtwo's 278 that much more vulnerable? O_O. Mewtwo has better defence!

By the way if you're taking 298 defence you are a cheater. But still, it isn't that much higher than Mewtwo's 278 defence. 20 points, whoopty-doo.

a Mew with Horn Drill and Thunder Wave will beat a Mewtwo considering Horn Drill (should) hit in the first 3 uses.

Tell that to Grep ...

Mew is definitely on par with Mewtwo.

Do you really believe this?

Mewtwo is NOT good in EVERY situation.

I'm going to have to ask you to stop changing what I say.

What I said was: Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation.

They're very different statements.

<snip electrode and rhydon or whatever battle against Mewtwo>

You are assuming the Mewtwo player is incompetant *and* its moveset. Pretend for a moment that *you* were using that Mewtwo as well. What would you do?

By the way I already gave a way to stop this in an earlier post *even* if it had worked out like you said (electrode gets to explode). Not to mention that this strategy involves sacrificing one whole pokemon. Which involves a lot of risk (what happens if Mewtwo switches when you explode? There goes your strategy)

Oh and as before, that falls down to Grep too. Or doubleteaming Mewtwo.

Both are situational

Isn't it funny that every single anti-Mewtwo strategy you've given me is situational?

By the way I remember an earlier post asking for the best overall moves. Probably amnesia was the most frequent response.

Another flaw. You're creating an idea around only a single case. To be dramatic, take the case of Butterfree vs Slowbro. Does it have even NEARLY the same capability/potential as Slowbro? No. So should Slowbro be banned?

I have no idea what you're trying to prove here. I simply stated that 'balanced' in the context I used it meant, well a fair match/pokemon. Balanced in the sense of Rock Paper Scissors. Not "even" stats. Instead you give me this Butterfree, Slowbro stuff.

Mewtwo's Defense, though, doesn't meet the "super-high-cheap" thing, though. And it is weaker than all of his other stats.

Your argument was that Mewtwo was much more susceptible to physical attacks than Slowbro. I proved it wasn't. What are you going on about now? That Mewtwo's defence isn't as hot as his other stats? So what? Does that prove anything?

Mewtwo is good IF there aren't any kamikazes or powerful physical attackers. See? He DOES have an "if" clause.

Mewtwo *can* defeat any kamikaze or physical fighter one on one. And the if clause you mention is nullified by *another* if clause this time "if Mewtwo has XXX move, Mewtwo-killer is no longer a Mewtwo-killer".

For eg. Your Kamikaze fighters will suck if Mewtwo used Substitute. They'll suck even if the Mewtwo player is a good "player" and can predict when you are going to do things. Support Electrode eventually blows up. Simply switch when its almost dead. Or switch if you get screeched.

Slowbro isn't normally percieved as such a high threat as Mewtwo, and usually won't get as much "special treatment" compared to Mewtwo.

And why is that you wonder? Find it funny that Mewtwo is still God of Pokemon despite everyone knowing about him? What happens to Toby if everyone knows about him?

By the way the advantages that you gave are still less than the advantages Mewtwo has. Are you trying to convince me that Slowbro is better than Mewtwo still? Because I already posted my opinion on that.

Mewtwo can be unstoppable in every situation? That's an outright lie; I can name you off a billion cases where a Mewtwo is dead no matter WHAT it does.

Okay, give me your billion cases and I will give you a billion counter-cases. If I don't suddenly get bored that is - I have kinda short attention span sometimes =Þ

If you want to win, use Mew or Mewtwo. and that's a good idea.

Thanks for helping out my case, though I thought you were on the other side...

But I never even said the moveset! You're simply jumping to conclusions about my Mewtwo...you can attack me, but attacking my Pokemon when you don't even know them...that's downright LOW!

One of you already mentioned it. I knew it had thunderwave, and self destruct - I guessed the other to be recover. That's all I needed to know really.

See last paragraph. 'Nuff said.

Okay, I'm looking at it. I fail to see your point.

If a teacher gives you an F at school, does that mean the teacher was rude?

How do you measure "amount of skill" required? I don't think this term should even be used; playing is playing.

Okay. Register your team of your best Pokemon on PokeSta - naturally that means Mewtwo as well.

Now, go get your Mom or Dad and offer to wash the dishes or something if only they played you at Pokemon. Now use identical teams.

The one who won most likely had the most skill. Luck can skew things of course, so offer the parent you played to wash the car too if they played you a couple more times. The one who won the most is the most skillful. There ya have it!

Of course, you can replace Mom and Dad with other people, like a friend a girlfriend or whatever.

Seriously though, 'skill' as I personally define it is the one who using his knowledge of the game, uses the best moves for each and every situation (including switching etc etc). What are best moves? Well the moves that at that instant of time will get you the fastest on the road to victory.

That's why having knowledge is a big part of skill in Pokemon - I doubt you'd find a truly crap Pokemon Player who read through all of Azhure heights.

Mew with Swords Dance. 'Nuff said. It rivals Mewtwo himself.

What's it gonna do to Aerodactyl? Double Teamer? Anything that charges faster than it? (Mewtwo). Etc etc etc.

I'm not saying Mew with SD is not good - it's very very good. But it ain't no Mewtwo.

Yes, actually, when designed right, a good Mew can stand its own against a Mewtwo, lucky fairy willing (as in most cases).

Okay, tell me your almighty Mew Moveset *_*

By the way you need to have luck? How much luck?

You probably either haven't played a working Mew setup, or have made mistakes while playing it. (I'm not assuming, I'm just speculating...gotta put a lot of () or I'll get flamed for everything!)

I'm not even gonna reply to this. Notice I never say comments like: You probably don't know how to play; You probably don't have working XXX; You probably suck.

Geez, if you're trying to insult me, you're doing a good job ...

But I will tell you that I do have a legit Mew from the Aussie tour down here and I've experimented with a lot of movesets...

It's all in the moveset. Mew is MUCH more versitile than Mewtwo; there's no contest there.

Can Mew learn Amnesia? Barrier?


His tier is WAY ahead of Mewtwo's there, or whatever you said about Mewtwo's teir being ahead of everyone elses.

Sorry for not explaining exactly what tiers are. You can think of tiers as rungs on a ladder. The highest you are on a ladder, the better you are. Mewtwo is sitting on the first or highest tier. By himself.

Mew, Snorlax, Toby whatever you want I guess can be considered sitting on the next-highest rung. (second tier).

I got the term from Street Fighter when arguing about which characters are best ...

And of course if I predict their prediction (weird but true) I Blizzard and their Rhydon is toast and I laugh at them. And sure, nothing works 100%, but most people don't even know if it;s my Mewtwo with Selfdestruct; I play lots of variants to keep people on the edge.

That's what I mean by "skill."

Exactly, that's why the opinions can't be backed up, and why they can't be used

Didn't I just say that facts back up opinions? *_*. Opinions are opinions yes, but the most valid opinions are the ones most based on fact. For instance, I could say, "In my opinion, apples are not red but sky blue." But its an invalid opinion coz the fact is, apples are red. (By the way don't try to be nitpicky and say that some apples are green - you know what I mean ...)

Wait, here's another one. "In my opinion, 1 + 1 = 11"

Bingo. I think you've got that Slowbro is also "cheap" by the same reasons mewtwo would be. SpaceDog hasn't accepted this.

I already gave my counters on this one.

Sounds like the Mewtwo killing thing except with a couple names replaced...Swords Dance and Focus Energy...Thunderbolt and Explosion...

I'll just say one word for the above: Substitute.

You can't do the same thing to Slowbro *no matter what he has* he will still die to its counters.

And frankly I don't really consider a kamikaze Pokemon a true Mewtwo-killer... your milege may vary of course ..

Just like Mewtwo. If I know someone's using a Mewtwo, I can build my team to counter it.

But you have to know what moves it has. No matter the moves on Toby, good electrics/electric moves, good grass will kill it. (remember all other things being equal - Tobybro doesn't start off full pumped up while Electric is null)

T-wave/Explosion/finish. Don't need to get lucky for that either.

Excuse me ... that depends on a *lot* of luck. Whether Mewtwo doesn't have sub, whether Mewtwo didn't predict you and switch out, whether Mewtwo didn't have DT or Barrier, whether Mewtwo is smart and avoids the finish, whether Mewtwo doesn't get a lucky critical if it started off guns blazing ... well you get the idea.

See above. Mewtwo can't counter that either.

See above. It can and will get countered against a good player. Like I said, pretend for an instant there are 2 Fanhas, one with your kamikaze, one with Mewtwo. Pretend that you're the Fanha with Mewtwo and if you win the game you win a million bucks. What are you gonna do?

Better yet, let's go for ACTUAL one-hit KOs! In reality you're looking at the same odds, but it can kill ANY Pokemon in one hit! And it's more like a 25% chance...oops maybe the one-hit KOs are BETTER...

This analogy would be correct, if for each time you missed the one-hit KO, it takes off over 50% of your life anyway.

Ah, that's the point; many people don't think it is legitimate.

It's legitimate, but don't delude yourself into thinking its not cheap and that Slowbro is as cheap as Mewtwo is.

Teejay:

Have you ever tried this? An Earthquake from Slowbro brings Jolteon past half life, significantly.

Hmmm, well not significantly. Though this assumes both are at max stats. I rather doubt most people try to catch Slowbros with good attack. But anyways, I concede the point.

*But* this depends on if the Slowbro anticipated the change. Which would be rather hard in a real life situation. And even if it did work out exactly how you wanted it, the Jolteon has a turn to use. He could either attack hoping for a critical, thudnerwave and then attack, hoping for paralysis, DTeam or Sand Attack ...

Or if the Jolteon knew you had earthquake, he could simply decide to send it in when it gets a chance to go first. Or he predicts you're not going to use Earthquake ... it goes both ways.

By the way, don't say that isn't an option, because the Slowbro user would also *have* to know there's a Jolteon and he was going to switch it in at that precise instant. If the Slowbro gets extra knowledge, the Jolteon player should too.

Of course, Jolteon isn't the only Toby Killer. That strat wouldn't work on Venusaur regardless if you predicted you'd switch it in. I'm pretty sure that Venusaur's better defence can take it on (not to mention ground VS grass/poison is nullified to 1). It also wouldn't work on thunderbolting starmies, Mewtwos, Lapras etc. And remember that by losing thunderwave (by including earthquake) you lose the speed advantage everytime (Slowbro is the slowest aside from Snorlax). There's a reason why Toby has Twave ...

It's a good idea though, earthquake on Slowbro, but you still have to be pretty lucky to capitalise on it... I guess also that psychic on Slowbro would go good against venusaur if it had an extra turn ... unless Razer Leaf kills in one hit.

Well, that's it for now...

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-15-2000, 12:22 PM:
 
I think the real disparity comes from Mewtwo defenders defending pathetic Mewtwo movesets and Mewtwo assailers assaulting Mewtwos with a dozen moves(If he has Double Team, and if he has Thunder Wave, and if he has Horn Drill, and if he has Substitute, and...)

Reality check, folks. Mewtwo has better stats than anything else (Defense WEAKNESS? Uh, right...) and already starts off with a kick-ass moveset (Recover, Barrier, Amnesia, Psychic). Add a few QUALITY TMs and he can roll over more than anything else can, unless they get a real overhaul and the Mewtwo is trained badly. The fact that he can be stopped isn't saying much; if there were a Pokémon that COULDN'T be stopped, Pokémon battles would go on forever.

And the fact remains that most Mewtwo players know nothing about using him, as most Chansey or Slowbro or Jolteon etc. players know nothing about using them.

Beauty fades, dumb is forever.

------------------
COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language
 


Posted by maagisk (Member # 536) on 06-15-2000, 01:06 PM:
 
mewtwo is very cheap however he's a great way of testing your pokemon skills. try to make a team without using mewtwo, if u can be succesfull, your r a very skillfull trainer. ill let u in on a little trick, catch a chansey and use it to faint mewtwo. divew it the moveset: toxic/seismictoss/lightscreen/soft boiled.
first use toxic to start it off, after time mewtwo will get so poisoned that recover wont do him good. then whenever he uses psychic it will take away about 1/2 of chanseys health, when its your turn use soft boiled, if mewtwo tryes to use amnesia to power up his psychic, just use light screen to protect yourself from it, if he uses it again then u use it again, if he uses substitute just brake it with seismic toss, after time toxic will faint mewtwo in 1 hit. thats just one of the ways to faint mewtwo.

------------------

 


Posted by Apophis (Member # 487) on 06-15-2000, 08:54 PM:
 
ok, ill lay it out one more time.
mewtwo isnt cheap. mewtwo is just the most versatile (statwise) pokemon there is in rby.

whether he should be allowed or not depends on the two people battling.

sure, he has some glaring advantages, but mewtwo amounts to shit if you dont train him well. its all up to the skill of the trainer.

he CAN lose, very easily. he can win very easily as well.

stop arguing about it, or you may as well draw a line across the board, and decide to not talk to eachother again. its getting pretty ugly.
brandon

------------------
I am Lord of this world, and the next.
My power surpasses that of any normal HUMAN.
None may contain my evil.
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-15-2000, 10:29 PM:
 
Apophis:ok, ill lay it out one more time.
mewtwo isnt cheap. mewtwo is just the most versatile (statwise) pokemon there is in rby.

Yup....versatile.

And versatile,by such a HIGH margin,its CHEAP.

Like fist fighting with one guy having a metal bat.

Apophis:sure, he has some glaring advantages, but mewtwo amounts to shit if you dont train him well. its all up to the skill of the trainer.

Bwahaha...i cant believe you're doing the "train him right" arguement..how hard is it to:

Walk to Unknown Dungeon with your masterball...Save the game and one open slot in your team.

catch him,and check stats,,,keep doing that until you get atleast max defense and hp,the next most important is speed,then attack....a 3 way would be nice..but 2-way will do.

give him vitamins,right then and there.

run him through e4 until 100...

keep barrier,amnesia,recover,psychic.

box in the Uknown Dungeon with byclycle,animation off,and dodrio mode if possible.

Duplicate him.

Make your 5-6 different movesets.

i could do it all in a day,with dodrio mode.

I know you come in contact with alot of newbies,but there will be few in the four way board tourney who are planning to use mewtwo...

And there will be FIVE way max mewtwo's...

><

Apophis:he CAN lose, very easily. he can win very easily as well.

He can lose..but not easily...dont even try to say he can with no explanation of examples to back your argument up.

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by AtomicMew (Member # 41) on 06-15-2000, 10:40 PM:
 
Apophis:sure, he has some glaring advantages, but mewtwo amounts to shit if you dont train him well. its all up to the skill of the trainer.

That argument has no place in here. This WAS originally about the tourney, no? And I ASSume everyone's using max stats....

------------------
AIM: ShyftZ
-Atomic Mew
 


Posted by TeeJay (Member # 265) on 06-15-2000, 10:48 PM:
 
Acey: He can lose..but not easily...dont even try to say he can with no explanation of examples to back your argument up.

Oh my gosh, that was lame. Acey why do you continue to argue anyway? I'm sorry I'm really trying to stay out of this, but I like to point out stupidity, both ways. So consider me neutral.

Acey, are you telling him to rewrite half of this topic so he can give you some examples? I'm sorry, look around you. There are tons of examples.

------------------
Insert sig here.

TeeJay
ICQ:13724101
AIM:daBIGTom
e-mail:dabigtom@yahoo.com
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-16-2000, 02:06 AM:
 
That wasnt Acey, Teejay...that was me.

^ ^;;

No,i will not look around..its the same crap.

And thats my point,you guys have run out of excuses..

We WIN

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-16-2000, 10:03 AM:
 
Teejay, as Argo said, that wasn't me. *_*

C'mon, I get enough with Fanha changing my wording to suit his own argument, I don't need to be confused with a totally different one as well ...

But all the same, I already debunked all your 'examples' anyhows ...

Why do I argue though? Good question ... well aside from the fact that I wanna see just how far you guys try to squirm out of good logic just so you don't have to admit you're wrong, well, I kinda like debating ^_*. (I mean, Tobybro as good/better than Mewtwo? Now that took the cake!).

By the way, what's this neutral stuff? You're *obviously* on the "Mewtwo isn't cheap" side and the only stupidity you've been flinging around is at us.

I also noticed a new trend of you guys admitting that Mewtwo is unbalanced, but still insisting it isn't cheap. Don't you realise that, that's what cheap is? *_*. Taking advantage of an unbalance is cheap. I guess it sounds more nasty than unbalanced though so I can see why you wouldn't want to be called that.

Well

Seeyas!

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by Apophis (Member # 487) on 06-16-2000, 01:22 PM:
 
ok, argo. i can tell you this much.
the reason you guys hate using mewtwo soooo much is because you cant think of any creative new ways to beat him. thats the challenge with mewtwo. if he has max stats, then hes a hard mutha to kill, but nowhere near impossible.

i know that you could NAME the pokemon (within reason) for me to use, and i could waste a mewtwo with him. i can think of a few others on the board that could do the same.

come to one of my tour dates, and ill show you all about pokemon.

its all about training. it has nothing to do with "cheapness". its all about you guys being too lazy to: 1. learn to use mewtwo effectively. or 2. train a well balanced team thats not just built to "counter" mewtwo, but to defeat an entire team.

i think the spirit of the discussion has been lost, though. get back on track, guys!
brandon

------------------
I am Lord of this world, and the next.
My power surpasses that of any normal HUMAN.
None may contain my evil.
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-16-2000, 04:39 PM:
 
Apophis:ok, argo. i can tell you this much.
the reason you guys hate using mewtwo soooo much is because you cant think of any creative new ways to beat him. thats the challenge with mewtwo. if he has max stats, then hes a hard mutha to kill, but nowhere near impossible.

Its not about beating the mewtwo.Thats not the hardest thing in the world.There ARE counters for it i admit..but it deprives you from using a full SIX POKEMON TEAM of the pokes you will enjoy using.

"if he has max stats"...

Umm...see,you're a nintendo rep...so you face more loser mewtwo's then pro mewtwo's..and are de-sensitized to the pro mewtwo,and think its easy as cheese to beat one....with your digging AND quaking sandslash maybe? e.e;


Apophis:come to one of my tour dates, and ill show you all about pokemon.

Uhh...no..thats OK...i don't to need to be "shown" anything.

Apophis:its all about training. it has nothing to do with "cheapness". its all about you guys being too lazy to: 1. learn to use mewtwo effectively. or 2. train a well balanced team thats not just built to "counter" mewtwo, but to defeat an entire team.

It IS all about training..and i will bring up the being a rep point again...you've faced so many loser mewtwo's you think the stuff that will be faced in the 4-way tourney will be those newbie mewtwo's...here's a hint...if anyone will be using a mewtwo,they wont be newbie mewtwo's.

"1)learn to use mewtwo effectivly"

Ummm......use a mewtwo effectively?you're...........joking.....right?

RIGHT??

*troubled look on his face*

Hmm...yea..i gotta learn to press those A buttons to select amnesia..then recover,and sweep 6 pokes.

Damn..i better get started...

2)"train a well balanced team thats not just built to "counter" mewtwo, but to defeat an entire team."

Yea...you got that from dreadite's pokemon team making theory.

And when there's so many different pokemon in this game...this theory is impossible...well..only possible to the best of trainers...and this isnt concerning movesets...but all out skills.

In g/s,this theory is nullified.

^ ^;;

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-16-2000, 06:35 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:
Its not about beating the mewtwo.Thats not the hardest thing in the world.There ARE counters for it i admit..but it deprives you from using a full SIX POKEMON TEAM of the pokes you will enjoy using.


But some people enjoy using Mewtwo. Like Dread, who thinks he's kawaii. 8-)

Anyway, Argo, a Mewtwo WILL NOT sweep 6 pokemon if you play right. If you don't kill it fast, you're gonna lose. All Mewtwo killing is about is speed-killing, or matching his stats via stat boosters (like with Toby).

I've said this tons of times, PLAY POKE CUP IF YOU HATE MEWTWO. In Prime Cup, he WILL BE USED. Whether you like it or not.

OK, maybe not in the tourney, because people are too weak to face one, but...

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-16-2000, 09:02 PM:
 
I think Mewtwo should be allowed, regardless of cheapness.

If one side has Mewtwo and the other a killer, they both devoted a Pokémon to the cause. If your opponent has Mewtwo and you lack a killer, yer screwed. If you have a killer and he lacks a Mewtwo, he's equally screwed.

The argument about the necessity to use Mewtwo killers to defeat him leaves out the fact that they are universally effective; Mewtwo doesn't have to be the sole reason they occupy a spot on the team. Besides, something that has the oomph to roll over Mewtwo probably isn't going to be overwhelmed by something lesser unless type bonuses come into play.

------------------
COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language
 


Posted by ceoalex316 (Member # 338) on 06-16-2000, 11:26 PM:
 
What you all don't relize is that nintendo made this a fantasy game for ages 5-12(about)
an NOT for strategy. They put mewtwo in as a prize for winning the game, they weren't thinking to make it balance (obviously).
So of course you make him the best, and very cheap, so you can destroy anything, again this game was made for 5 year olds...

------------------
...PIKA!,PIKA PIKA! ... So you say I am wrong, that you are not his human servent but his friend.. PIKA ... you are as pathetic as the rest...
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-17-2000, 03:20 AM:
 
Mr. K: As far as I'm concerned, there's no more debate (except about fiddling details) unless someone who actually doesn't believe Mewtwo is cheap joins the discussion.

Fanha: This is simply being unfair. You're just basically saying "those guys aren't real opponents; if there's nobody else we win because I don't think they're anything". That was downright bossy and rude.

It's not about winning.

What I'm saying is...show me the person who thinks Mewtwo isn't cheap.

Since the "Everyone gets one." argument is moot, this means "Show me the person who thinks Mewtwo is not far and away the best Pokemon."

I don't see that person here.

There are those who argue, for other reasons, that he should be allowed, but you have gone loopy arguing every tiny pointless little sentence everyone posts instead of looking at The Big Picture.

If you want to keep squabbling about pointless krap because you enjoy debate, that's fine with me, but since I have not seen anyone make the claim that Mewtwo is not far and away the best Pokemon, then there's really no argument.

Everyone agrees he's "cheap", or some other version of the word. "Unbalanced" or "overpowered" or whatever.

And I stand by my statement that anyone who claims that Mewtwo isn't cheap (or some equivalent word) is a total idiot.

Read the "Mathematics of Cheap" thread in the Azure Pokemon Center and tell me that a free 40 points in each stat over Number 2 is not cheap and I'll tell you to go seek medical attention for the damaged cranium of yours.

Just looking at how close the scores of everyone below #1 is shows clearly and obviously how cheap Mewtwo is.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-17-2000, 04:29 AM:
 
Fanha: No it isn't. If I had a kami 'trode, I wouldn't have any other Electrics on my team for obvious reasons. And he's not taking Slowbro any time soon. There aren't THAT many Electric Pokemon to chose from, as explained above. Not every team even fields an Electric.

First...i think someone hasnt heard of SUPPORT(KEY WORD) TRODE..

Meaning a support for your eclectric pokemon...he paralyzes,screeches IF HE CAN(dont try the supporting how easy it is to bet mewtwo argument,its bull)and he blows up.

Not all teams have a electric?

UTTER BULL...and you KNOW it.

Fanha: Like I said, show me a team that makes effective use of Venusaur and Victreebel. Haven't seen one yet. Starmie/Lapras is doubtful without STAB. And that's about all your "decent special with Thunderbolt" short of MewX. Jolteon is ONE counter, and a couple other Elecs I mentioned might be (though Magneton is VERY easy to counter considering he has no moveset variety short of confusion). And we're talking about being able to counter Slowbro with COMMON Pokemon, not obscure ones. Mewtwo can be countered by commons; can Slowbro? Chansey, MAYBE. It would be possible, but I can't say I'd know how that would go. Slowbro does more with Surf than Mewtwo with Psychic...

Havent seen a team making use of r-leafers?look harder.

i have only seen ONE bro survive my max special venusaur's leafs of wrath...it was on PBS,and he had told me he had used 5-ways.Thats right,ONE leaf=gone.Once you see bro,switch in.He can either amnesia or t-wave.RL will come EXTREMELY close to taking out...only morons will surf...they will pray for that small chance of full paralysis.The chances are on your side.

Oh yea...and guess what....slowbro...look at the name...SLOWbro....venusaur and vic are faster....

IT'S CALLED SLEEP POWDER....

Slowbro is sleep bait....cant say the same about M2,now can you?when they see egger they will switch out..who wants their mewtwo slept?

Starmie has T-wave to stall bro into bolting,not to mention light screen for excellent surf absorbtion.

lapras has confuse ray....i garuntee two bolts from a max special lappy can take bro out.

Venusaur is extremely common.
Jolteon is extremely common.
Zapdos is extremely common.
Starmie is extremely common.
Victreebel is extremely common.

Those are ONLY the common ones...

Fanha: We're comparing Mewtwo to Slowbro and finding similarities for the basic of a "double cheapness"...you seem to be helping US...

Ummm...no...stop trying to make bull arguments like this....we're discussing general cheapness.

Umm..you want mewtwo-slowbro comparison?sure..

-mewtwo learns amnesia
-slowbro learns amnesia
-mewtwo ties for second FASTEST pokemon out of 3
-slowbro ties for SLOWEST pokemon out of three
-mewtwo has highest special in the game
-slowbro has one of the lowest special in the game of full evo's
-mewtwo has 400+ hp
-slowbro has great hp,but not as great as m2
-mewtwo amnesia's to 999 in TWO turns
-slowbro amnesia's to 999 in THREE turns
-mewtwo has 318 attack
-slowbro has 248(58?) attack
-mewtwo learns recover
-slowbro learns.....rest
-mewtwo has the most resistant type in the game
-slowbro is weak to grass and electric,some of the most popular types in the game.
-mewtwo learns every TM element out of 50
-Slowbro cant benefit from physical attacks...that counts fighting,ground,and normal out.The only special he gets is fire,ice,water,psychic.

Enough comparison for you?

Fanha: *he makes it so easy!*

Mewtwo is good, but he is critically weak to a whole class of attacks: physical. *Especially* normal which is damn popular. Do you know how many Snorlax and Chansey, heck, Mew are out there? Exeggutor and Slowbro are also getting increasingly popular. Not to mention kamikazes who can learn huge physical attacks. How many Electrode are out there? Snorlax? Even Mew can destroy Mewtwo.

Easy to say,not easy to DO.

I hope you caught that that's you whole arguement except changing a couple names and putting Mewtwo instead of Slowbro. A couple might not be perfect, but it's a pretty good fit!

Uhm..you've been doing that lately...its not as great as a normal argument...i think you're run out.

e_e

Fanha: You're a lot more likely to run into anti-Mewtwos when coming out than anti-Slowbros. I thought even you could figure that. Mewtwo is in MUCH more immediate danger.

Umm..maybe in your corrupted-by-mewtwo meta game..but not in mine,and definatly not in the official internet meta game,called PBS.How can you assume everyone's metagame is full of mewtwo counters when people have hihg enough common sense and morality not to use him and just have fun?I thought even you can figure that out... e_e

Fanha: By definitions of cheapness applied to Mewtwo, if Mewtwo is cheap, Slowbro would be too. That's all we're saying, but some people want to stick themselves in that narrow ditch between dissing Mewtwo AND Slowbro...

No no no...do you realize what you're doing?

You're being OBLIVIOUS to mewtwo,and slowbro,and just thinking about the move Amnesia.

Amnesia itself is not cheap,are you saying Poliwrath is cheap?I will SCREAM if you DARE compare him to a mewtwo...

Fanha: We're measuring cheapness, not equality. And Slowbro would be concidered cheap if Mewtwo was; that's the point. And the fact with Mewtwo gone, Slowbro becomes just as cheap.

Read the latter Arguement...i am NOT repeating myself..

Fanha: Ah, but Pokemon like Mew don't need raw power to win. And with STAB, Slowbro can actually do MORE damage with Surf than a Mewtwo can do with ANY attack, including the infamous Psychic. So your statement is pretty much false, unless you consider natural power, but Slowbro has just as blatent a weakness as Mewtwo (if not a little better; Speed isn't as hard to handle even after you power up as Defense is, though it's a matter of perspective and situation). Just calling the arguement "rediculous" isn't the kind of thing I'd expect from you, Mr. K...you should at least realize that Slowbro is EASILY a HUGE powerhouse without Thunderbolt/Amnesia in general on Mewtwo as its main counter, especially considering the frightening reality that Surf does MORE damage than a Mewtwo can inflict with ANYTHING once pumped up. That's VERY scary...also considering it can KO Mew, its close compeditor, in one hit (I THINK...I know it CAN because I've seen it happen...I don't know if it's 100% though...).

Oh dear..surf if more powerful by 5 base damage...what a pathetic argument.How are you saying mewtwo is just as weak as mewtwo..its like saying:

"Pff...cats can fly...DUHH"

WITH A STRAIGHT face...thats bugging me...Do you not realize it...read the comparison i made to slowbro and mewtwo over and over,and bash your head into the wall a few times if that helps...whatever gets you going normally..

e_e

Oh dear..5 base damage...im so...frightened...you're not considering the factors of weaknesses of the actual two pokemon.It nullifies your horrifying 5 base damage by a mile long margin.

Fanha: Okay, I think that's one of the most outrageous statements I've heard so far. Moltres is weak to a major threat, Slowbro, and the other two only have basically ONE type of attack on each; their own type. Moltres is the same, only Fire and Flying and possibble Normal in its moveset; not a whole lot of dazzle; and Articuno has a slim Bubblebeam for Water, Ice, Flying, and Normal (but mediocre Attack); Zapdos has Electric, Flying, and Normal with a mediocre Attack (Rock/Ground anyone?). The plethoria of Flying weaknesses couldn't hurt their "Tank'y ness" much worse. Sure if EVERYTHING with "greatly increasing" powerups was stripped, they MIGHT have a chance...other than that I don't think they do on a good day...other than Zapdos as a possible Slowbro killer, but it can have Ice to deal with Zapdos. *oh geez, I might have to invent the word polymovoSlowbrophobia!*

First..whoever brough up moltres?

And...rock?

Guess what,a rock slide from rhydon doing the MAXIMUM damage is 249 hp off zappy...

he has enourmous special...earthquake resistance...heck..if you're so afraid of slide you can give him reflect...if you're afraid of ice,light screen...if you want all out power against both,DT/rest.

The great master dreadite himself,said Zapdos and Articuno would be number ONE after mewtwo is out of the picture.

e_e

And there are infinitly so many counters for slowbro...there is no such thing as a fear of them.

Mewtwo is another story,and dont try to deny it.

*whipes forehead*

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-17-2000, 12:12 PM:
 
It's sad how Azure is supposed to have a group of the best trainers in the world, yet most ban Mewtwo because they can't take him down.

Sad, really.

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-17-2000, 12:57 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enter Your Name Here:
Sad, really.

Sad, my ass.

Don't pull that condescending krap with me.

Mewtwo is cheap. I can understand people who don't want to fight him because they want to have more fun playing.

Not everyone enjoys having the game revolve around a single species. If you don't mind it, that's fine with me, but it sure as Hell isn't "sad" if others don't like to play using an unbalanced Pokemon.

I know how to take down a Mewtwo, but I don't want to use a Mewtwo, Mew, Slowbro, Chansey, or whatever. I want to play with the team I like. That doesn't make me inept or stupid or "sad".

Games are a whole lot more fun IMO without Mewtwo. When your opponent doesn't have M2, you have to be prepared for anything and it's often surprising what other Pokemon they have.

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.

I don't think it's "sad" that some people want to use Mewtwo (or be assured of fighting him every battle). I totally understand why they'd want to. Just because they don't play the game the same way I do doesn't make them "sad".

Mmph.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-17-2000, 02:16 PM:
 
Mewtwo is cheap. I can understand people who don't want to fight him because they want to have more fun playing.

For me, it's way more fun trying to take down pokemon stronger than mine.

It's just an opinion.

Not everyone enjoys having the game revolve around a single species. If you don't mind it, that's fine with me, but it sure as Hell isn't "sad" if others don't like to play using an unbalanced Pokemon.

By no means do I support Mewtwo use. I know the post got deleted in the voting thing because you just wanna have the vote results, but I say this to everyone: If the vote passes and Mewtwo is allowed, I won't take him. I feel I have something to prove.

I know how to take down a Mewtwo, but I don't want to use a Mewtwo, Mew, Slowbro, Chansey, or whatever. I want to play with the team I like. That doesn't make me inept or stupid or "sad".

Agreed, I'm training my own fun team with Pokemon I like. I'm not gonna use it for any major competition or anything.

Games are a whole lot more fun IMO without Mewtwo. When your opponent doesn't have M2, you have to be prepared for anything and it's often surprising what other Pokemon they have.

This is simply your opinion, and I don't want to deny you of that, but Mewtwo is only one pokemon. And even without Mewtwo, teams are filled with the same old stuff. Starmie, Slowbro, Exeggutor, you know the stuff I'm talking about.

I don't think it's "sad" that some people want to use Mewtwo (or be assured of fighting him every battle). I totally understand why they'd want to. Just because they don't play the game the same way I do doesn't make them "sad".

Oh, I understand why they wouldn't want their opponents to use Mewtwo. They want things to be balanced.

That's what Poke Cup is for.

And if I get one reply telling me that they don't play Poke because of the level divide, that's their opinion. It make make it "unbalanced" a little bit, but certainly 5 levels is the 50-55 range is less unbalanced than Mewtwo. It's not like Pika Cup, where the level difference can overcome stat weaknesses (type weaknesses are as much a problem as ever in Pika, despite the level divide. Unless the Gyara can OHKO, A L15 Pikachu will almost always beat a L20 Gyarados.). Even with the level divide, Poke is probably the most balanced cup.

Prime Cup was created simply for the use of Mewtwo and the people who like killing Mewtwo without their own. Poke Cup was the cup created for people who don't wanna deal with Mewtwo.

Maybe we can establish some unofficial L69 cup or something, so Mewtwo doesn't exist and we have no level difference. Meh.

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Cpt_Carnage (Member # 466) on 06-17-2000, 03:24 PM:
 
On the note of cheapness what do you think of this team?

Dragonite
Mewtwo
Articuno
Zapdos
Another Mewtwo!
Mew

The guy who has this config says he is a very skillful trainer and uses cleverly thought out tactics... like what? - click the button labelled Amnesia twice - button labeled psychic repeatedly after that?

------------------
ICQ# 70919600
Member of MeWtWo SuX
Master of Dragon Pokemon
Slayer of Bulbasaurs, Clefairies and Onixs
:)
This will have to do for a sig' pic'
 


Posted by abz1986 (Member # 150) on 06-17-2000, 06:56 PM:
 
Prime Cup was created simply for the use of Mewtwo and the people who like killing Mewtwo without their own. Poke Cup was the cup created for people who don't wanna deal with Mewtwo.

- What the fu--? Thats not what prime cup is made for! Prime Cup was made for the soul purpose of using level 100 pokemon and battling it all out. Sure, there is this Mewtwo involved, but if you're battling with your friends, you can ban Mew/two. Besides, the Pokecup dosesn't ban Mewtwo(does it?... the rulebook just says it bans Mew). You can still catch 100+ mewtwos and candy them to Level 50.

------------------
"And sometimes you see things that aren't there (Like what?)
Like fat woman in G-strings with orange hair
(Mr. Shady what's a G-string?) It's yarn Claire
Women stick 'em up their behinds, go out and wear 'em"

--"The Kids" by Eminem
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-17-2000, 07:24 PM:
 
Fanha: As I said last night, I'm dropping this arguement. Argo is making quite impartial comparisons that don't make sense, and some other people are just resorting to calling others idiots and cussing. It's sad how such intelligent people can degenerate. Anyhow it's no use to argue with some people who only see one half of the picture, and others who don't wish to even hear arguements they label rediculous without seeing if there is any merit to them.

OMG! O_O. No offence Fanha, but you are the biggest hypocrite I have ever had the pleasure of debating with on the net. And trust me, I've been in a *lot* of debates.

Now, I'm not gonna respond to your latest big post because every single little thing in it was proved to null in my last one. It seems you just want to ignore logic or something.

Anyways, I know why you're dropping the argument. It's because you know you're clinging to straws and want to exit gracefully. That I understand.

By the way, drop the Slowbro is cheap argument since Mewtwo is cheap. Comparisons that don't make any sense? *You're* the one who compared Slowbro to Mewtwo in the first place! And you back up your opinion with no facts. What little facts you do try to use are way too situational and I've debunked every single one. Why don't you look at Argo's list again until it does start to make sense? I won't bother repeating myself or him when you can just scroll back.

By the way if you recycle the same old rubbish about "everyone gets a Mewtwo therefore it's not cheap" it's not worth my time to debate with you any longer.

Seeyas

PS I don't label your argument ridiculous without considering it. I *have* considered it. And I still believe you're wrong. Anyone with an objective view would be able to see it. (that is with no Mewtwo favoritism or even anti-Mewtwo opinions). The numbers and types speak for themselves. Numbers and types are *facts*. The facts prove you wrong.

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-17-2000, 10:50 PM:
 
Mr. K:If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.

Woohoo!*adds quote to sig*

EYNH:For me, it's way more fun trying to take down pokemon stronger than mine.

You DO know that completely contradicts your mewtwo use....right?

EYNH:Agreed, I'm training my own fun team with Pokemon I like. I'm not gonna use it for any major competition or anything.

*rubs eyes* Am i seeing right?

Well...i GARUNTEE you will have much more fun then using mewtwo..

Fanha:As I said last night, I'm dropping this arguement. Argo is making quite impartial comparisons that don't make sense, and some other people are just resorting to calling others idiots and cussing. It's sad how such intelligent people can degenerate. Anyhow it's no use to argue with some people who only see one half of the picture, and others who don't wish to even hear arguements they label rediculous without seeing if there is any merit to them.

They dont make sense to you,because you are pro mewtwo.Ignorance can be forced upon your mind,indirectly when you believe in your Mewtwo so much.

I may be only seeing half of your story,but you are seeing 0% of mine.I am the one making invalid points?haha...you're the one who keeps bringing on the SAME crap over..and denying the completely obvious.

Fanha:And I definitely don't ignore logic.

Yet you continue to believe mewtwo and slowbro are equals?

Acey was right about the hippocracy..

Fanha:- Slowbro has resistances to Ice and Water, two of the most popular types. He also resists Fire, popular among newbies.
- Mewtwo doesn't resist anything but Psychic and Fighting, and Slowbro already resists those.
(The whole attack thing is pointless considering we're not using Attack with Slowbro)
- Grass attacks are NOT one of the most popular in the game. I don't think that's a hard-to-back-up statement; Electric, Ice, Water, Normal, Ground, and Psychic would probably be the "most popular types" list; I might be missing one. Slowbro is resistant to THREE and weak to one; Mewtwo is resistant to ONE and weak to none.
- Mewtwo gains STAB from one type
- Slowbro gains it from TWO
- They both have the same maximum special, but Slowbro with Surf can do more damage than even a Mewtwo w/ STAB Psychic; THAT'S huge! If you're saying Mewtwo's huge damage is cheap, Slowbro's got him beat with TWO attacks that meet or beat Mewtwo's best (Psychic vs Psychic and Surf).
- Slowbro does NOT have one of the lowest Specials; if he did he wouldn't be able to hit 999, like Snorlax.
- Mewtwo Recovers half HP with Recover, while Slowbro recovers all HP and status ailments with Rest at a two-turn cost. He's harder to force into a "Recover loop" (look around my other posts if you don't know).
- Mewtwo does NOT learn every element TM; check your list Argo.
- Mewtwo counters are found on MANY more teams than the Grass counters for Slowbro and Electrics. Some teams don't even have an Electric; almost EVERY team has an anti-Mewtwo. Slowbro counters aren't used as sparingly, either; they're often lead Pokemon and thus can be damaged earlier.

Bah...im just so BORED of arguing with you,its like there's a huge interceptor of logic infront of you..i most definatly can,and if you really want me to,i will.

Fanha:if they didn't Argo couldn't do such a detailed comparison!

I was comparing OPPOSITE aspects ^_^

And how far away they are from each other on the cheap scale..

Oh...and Gamefaqs has 8-7 NO mewtwo votes....UPN has more No's then Yes's....and RPG gamer is still deciding,mostly NO.

Give the people what they want,if they cant have fun in this tourney,there is no point to have it at all.


------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

"It's gonna be a Psybro!"
-Ash

-Argo
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-18-2000, 02:26 AM:
 
Well, that's good to hear. Unfortunately, that might make Azure look like the "ignorant" board, Argo. So far, I'm the only one who has voted "NO" on Mewtwo use (check the official vote post under this forum) from Azure. I hope they tally individual votes, and not board majorities, because the Pro-Mewtwo side on Azure has already forced at least a tie, and AgentM2 still hasn't voted (I'm pretty sure he'll vote yes). Looks like my vote was probably just a waste. Kinda like voting for a democrat in a republican-heavy state, eh?

------------------
"Yeah Ramon. That'll happen."
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-18-2000, 02:40 AM:
 
Have no fear,starcaliber..it will be tallied by individual posts...not the majorities of the boards.

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-18-2000, 03:33 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Argo:

You DO know that completely contradicts your mewtwo use....right?

I normally don't need to. I foughtr like 7 battles, most against kids with rep pokemon (who actually used STRATEGY!). I only needed Mewtwo thrice. Once because Fahna's Mewtwo was staring me down with only a Rapidash, Vaporeon (with no attacking PP) and Mewtwo left, once because I made a stupid error by sending out Zapdos prematurely against Jeff, and the other time I lost anyway.

quote:
*rubs eyes* Am i seeing right?

Well...i GARUNTEE you will have much more fun then using mewtwo..


You know, my team before this was simply my favorite pokemon plus Mewtwo. Electrode (besides Mewtwo, only one that's not one of my faves), Magneton, Zapdos, Vaporeon, Rapidash, and of course Mewtwo.

The fun team I'm training, I don't exactly know what I'm gonna use. Magneton's definently gonna be on, Rapidash and Vaporeon probably are...Aerodactyl...Golbat...I dunno what else.

*realizes this is pretty much my poke team, and shuts up*

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Enter Your Name Here (Member # 57) on 06-18-2000, 03:39 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by abz1986:

- What the fu--? Thats not what prime cup is made for! Prime Cup was made for the soul purpose of using level 100 pokemon and battling it all out. Sure, there is this Mewtwo involved, but if you're battling with your friends, you can ban Mew/two. Besides, the Pokecup dosesn't ban Mewtwo(does it?... the rulebook just says it bans Mew). You can still catch 100+ mewtwos and candy them to Level 50.



The people with L50 Mewtwos are the people who either shark or missingno, those are the people you don't wanna battle anyway, for the safety of your cart. (Maybe not as much shark as missingno, but..) Your friends might not notice or care, but NoA will at an official tourney.

And yeah, Mew's banned too. Poke Cup is pretty much variety personified, through the level variety, variety in pokemon now that Type-Mew is out of the picture...meh.

*feels like he's gonna get flamed for this, for some reason*

------------------
--EYNH

"AZURIAN defeated RPGAMER!"
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-18-2000, 05:22 AM:
 
Fanha:*I try to exit, and people keep trying to pull me back. Can't people not talk to someone who is leaving?*
I'm only reposting to defend myself, since this was a personal attack.

Well, sorry, but the whole leaving thing smells of "cop out." I've come across it in many other debates as well. I recognise it when I see it...

By the way, if my post was that much of a personal attack, every single post of yours was worse. At least I make no assumptions like: "You probably had a crap Mew/Mewtwo" etc and general condescendingness as to my skills as a trainer. Not to mention blatantly changing what I say to something you can attack.

Actually I had about 8 pages worth of stuff written in Word that was too big to post, and most of it was against your arguements. And I definitely don't ignore logic.

8 pages huh? Do me a favour and read through it and snip all the stuff you've already spoken about and been disproven on. I mean seriously, I read all of your latest arguments and *nothing* here is new.

No, the reason I'm leaving is stuff like this. Personal attacks/flamings. For example:

Mr. K: And I stand by my statement that anyone who claims that Mewtwo isn't cheap (or some equivalent word) is a total idiot.

Actually, I agree with Mr K. Except I would word it out like this: Anyone who genuinely doesn't believe Mewtwo isn't cheap is an idiot. Or at least doesn't know that much about Pokemon.

I think I know that you yourself think Mewtwo is cheap. Except you try to justify it by calling it something else and not make yourself look so bad by using on him.

Now read what I wrote here (hope the code works):

http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum6/HTML/000149-2.html

Now you know exactly what cheap is. Though you should have had a good idea already ...

And stuff like this. Including this very message I'm replying to which is nothing but a flame against me.

Oh, so I'm flaming you now am I? Like I said, if my posts are flames, your posts are worse. If I was *really* flaming you, you'd know =p. Stop being so sensitive.

Now then on we go. Slowbro again? Geez, do I have to keep repeating myself? By the way, Mr K was right in that you resort to being too nitpicky and you should really look at the big picture and read the title of the thread yet again.

- Slowbro has resistances to Ice and Water, two of the most popular types. He also resists Fire, popular among newbies.

All good ... except he is fatally weak to electric and grass - and electric is the most popular type along with psychic. I'm afraid you have to try again. (on second thought don't unless you have some new material - new relevant material that is).

And if Newbies enter the equation, you can count on Venusaur being a popular Pokemon.


- Mewtwo doesn't resist anything but Psychic and Fighting, and Slowbro already resists those.

I'd rather resist nothing but psychic than be fatally weak to electric and grass. I'm sorry but this doesn't cut it either. By the way, Mewtwo doesn't really need resisitances with his tanky stats which can be backed up further by defensive moves.


(The whole attack thing is pointless considering we're not using Attack with Slowbro)

*Shrug*. TeeJay was using an argument about earthquaking Slowbro. Which is good in theory but like many things fail when put to use 9 times out of 10.


- Grass attacks are NOT one of the most popular in the game. I don't think that's a hard-to-back-up statement; Electric, Ice, Water, Normal, Ground, and Psychic would probably be the "most popular types" list; I might be missing one. Slowbro is resistant to THREE and weak to one; Mewtwo is resistant to ONE and weak to none.

Mewtwo weak to none you say? Thanks for backing us up. By the way resistances don't make up for weaknesses like I said earlier. So what if Slowbro is resistant to water and ice? He is critically weak to Electric and Grass and is able to be quite easily one-hit KOed.


- Mewtwo gains STAB from one type
- Slowbro gains it from TWO

But dies to two extra as a result. The handicap is NOT worth it.


- They both have the same maximum special, but Slowbro with Surf can do more damage than even a Mewtwo w/ STAB Psychic; THAT'S huge!

Wow Huge! 5 extra power ... but I'm afraid this falls flat too due to Slowbro needing three turns to amnesia while Mewtwo only needs 2. Mewtwo can be maxed out before Slowbro can. If he even needs to due to Thunderbolt/Thunder.


- Slowbro does NOT have one of the lowest Specials; if he did he wouldn't be able to hit 999, like Snorlax.

Snorlax has bad special. Just because Slowbro's is a bit better doesn't mean it's not bad either. Why do you think they gave the 2 of them amnesia? =p

On the other hand ... why did they want M2 to learn amnesia? It's because they wanted to create a God-like Pokemon as a reward for finishing the game.


- Mewtwo Recovers half HP with Recover, while Slowbro recovers all HP and status ailments with Rest at a two-turn cost. He's harder to force into a "Recover loop" (look around my other posts if you don't know).

So you say rest is better than recover? Yeah right. Look at it this way ... if you get forced into a recover loop, rest won't save you either. You miss *3* goes when you rest.

This point is moot though as Mewtwo can learn rest as well if for some reason the trainer wants to. I think you forgot that little point.


- Mewtwo does NOT learn every element TM; check your list Argo.

Okay, what element doesn't he learn? Don't just say, "nay", you have to provide details. If you say Ground, that isn't an element tm remember. Elements are the ones that depend on special. Water is moot too since Ice is overall better than water. IIRC The only thing water can kill that ice can't is fire and when was fire a powerhouse in RBY?


- Mewtwo counters are found on MANY more teams than the Grass counters for Slowbro and Electrics.

Due to ignorance. This doesn't prove a thing of your argument. It's cheap to newbies yes, but everything is cheap to newbies. But you know what? Mewtwo on newbies is far and away even cheaper.


Some teams don't even have an Electric; almost EVERY team has an anti-Mewtwo.

No offence but this is utter crap. I don't think I need to explain myself either as its obvious. *Every* team has a damn electric in it and possibly even more know electric moves via the excellent thunderbolt tm.

At one point, I had everyone on my whole team knowing an electric attack ... =p it's due to water being so popular.

And this is NOT to prove his is BETTER than Slowbro (for those who STILL can't grab that *cough*Argo*cough*), but to prove he is also CHEAP just as Mewtwo is if Mewtwo is indeed cheap.

What was that about insults and flaming? If you're gonna complain about it being done to you, don't start. In other words - if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

By the way, here is (one of the) the main reason why Slowbro isn't as cheap as Mewtwo. Other than raw numbers stats and types that is (which Mewtwo wins by a landslide anyways).

The game of Pokemon was meant to be like a glorified paper, scossors, rock game at its base level. No type was meant to be overpoweringly strong with no real counter to it. That is why weaknesses were added to every Pokemon. (although everyone knows Psychic is a broken type in RBY. Weak to Bug?Really?)

Sure, Slowbro is strong, but he has huge weaknesses and smart people *will* exploit them to bring it down. Slowbro is a water pokemon other than a psychic one. While water is strong, it a isn't broken type as the other types can kill it.

Now, along comes Mewtwo, who is just simply a broken Pokemon. He doesn't fit in with the game at all really. He has no real weakness and added to the super stats he quite simply rules. And the ways you bring him down can also bring down *every* single other Pokemon in the game. (except for the possibility of kamikaze pokemon on Rock types - who are overwhelmingly fragile anyway due to their non-existant special). Not that I count kamikaze Pokemon as proper XXX-Killers as they also kill *themselves*.

Quite simply: Mewtwo is in a whole different realm of cheapness than Slowbro is. Slowbro's cheapness is about on the level of Snorlax, Exeguttor etc. Actually, I think Mew is better than Slowbro as well.

But anyways, Nintendo's Gold and Silver seem to agree that RBY Mewtwo was too strong. Nintendo themselves can't be wrong about it.

I wonder if you and the other Mewtwo-lovers will stick by him so loyally when G/S comes. Dark is gonna totally kick ass =)

Most of my arguement HAS been numbers, types, and situations.

Then why do you ignore Mewtwo's? You're using selective argument style - that is pick only the bits that agree with you and ignore the rest. Do you not even see that 406 special attached to Mewtwo?

And I was trying to indirectly refer to Mr. K brushing off the Slowbro/Mewtwo comparison as stupid without even taking a systematic approach.

Not eveyone has the patience to slog through your stuff and counter everything like I do. And actually to do this, one does need a *lot* of patience due to your fondness to recycle arguments. I wouldn't blame him as other people have already done the talking for him which you choose to ignore.

Lates,

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 06-18-2000, 06:21 AM:
 
I'll just pick the most ludicrous of your laundry list of things that prove nothing to respond to...

quote:
Originally posted by Fanha:
Mewtwo counters are found on MANY more teams than the Grass counters for Slowbro and Electrics.

So, because Mewtwo is so cheap that nearly everyone has a Pokemon on their team designed specifically to deal with him, he's not cheap? You're out of your gourd.

quote:
I was trying to indirectly refer to Mr. K brushing off the Slowbro/Mewtwo comparison as stupid without even taking a systematic approach.

I have shown you my systematic approach.

What defines a Pokemon in battle? Stats, attacks, and type. That's it.

1. Mewtwo has the best stats.
2. Mewtwo has the move even you might consider "cheap", and has access to nearly every other great move.
3. Mewtwo has the best type.

No other Pokemon meets these requirements.

Can you think of one with better stats? No.

Can you think of one with better moves? Slowbro gets 5 more points out of Surf, but no Special lowering. Mew can Swift Dance. Neither are clearly better, so this one can't tip the balance.

Anyone else got the best type? Sure, a few. Do they also have the best stats? Uh-oh, there goes your argument.

That's it.

Game over, man.

------------------
KOFFING!
Azure Heights Pokémon Laboratory
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-18-2000, 05:20 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.


Mr. K's a cyborg!

------------------
COFFEE!
Sun Microsystems' Java Programming Language
 


Posted by Sephiroth27 (Member # 537) on 06-18-2000, 06:10 PM:
 
Yep, although I'm a newbie I can say he is...
and in some way related to Bender!?

------------------
You wanna know how I get my kicks? I'll tell you, I liek ta' mugwump lil' kids and their quote "Ultimate Charizard Team"...
I make em' cry, then I laugh in their face...
I'm insane!!!
formly known as Pichu27 the best...
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-18-2000, 08:49 PM:
 
*sigh*

I am not going to argue Fanha...only a few things...i will ignore the stuff you said that are "blah".

Fanha:If you deny that's logical, there's no use arguing with you. You twist definitions of words.

Haha!! look who's talking!

Fanha:Fine, but Azure Heights, from what I sees, has a pretty strong YES vote.

No matter,17 NO votes in total,which means NO Mewtwo in this tourney..

Fanha:There you go dictating again...it's quite annoying. Mr. K and I and several others agree it's stupid to have a board divided by individual votes considering we are competing as boards, not individuals. (What I mean is the groupings are by board, so you can't have a group divided against itself.)

Fine....still

NO MATTER

3 boards vote a majority of NO,one votes a majority of YES.

Guess what..

NO mewtwo..

Fanha:You also get the idea that myself and others are "stuck on" Mewtwo. I myself don't really care; I play Mewtwo when he's allowed, I don't when he's not. I only fight to stop this flaming of people who use Mewtwo just because they use him; that's quite prejudice.

Sure you're stuck on him...because you have polymovoLOSINGphobia.

No fanha,Hush now....all i ask,is read through all your posts with the word "risk" in it.

You make it seem like winning is everything,and in order to win,you must use mewtwo.You have the lowest morality of anyone i have met...besides some guy who has sharked lvl 255 mewtwo's x6 with spore..god man,whats ticking me off is you cant admit mewtwo unbalances the game,and its NO fun with him.

You say you have fun with him?

hah..i pity you,because you are only fooling yourslef...the only fun you have is seeing "You Win" at the end of every battle.And in order to achieve more "You wins" so you can have your fun,you try to get it at ANY cost..and that cost is mewtwo.He IS like drugs....and you are just ignoring ALL the posts the anti mewtwo posters have made,because you've been tricked so many times by mewtwo and yourself,your mind sets that mewtwo isnt cheap as a DEFAULT...because being cheap is being bad,and how could a bad thing cause fun?

Pff..more mewtwo-drugs relation.....


Bah..screw this,i am not replying to any of your other arguments this time...too long,and probably the same monotonous(SP?) krap..

Keep fooling yourself,Fanha...it may not seem serious/blievable to you,but it is.

As Sama once said..

Baby jesus cries when you use mewtwo

^_^;;


------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo

[This message has been edited by Argo (edited 06-18-2000).]
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-18-2000, 11:00 PM:
 
Meh teejay,calm down....I'm Catholic.

It's not offensive to me...

And to some extent,it think its true.

------------------
AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-19-2000, 09:51 AM:
 
Geez, calm down people ... and that Jesus line was obviously meant to be a joke...

Now then ... replies ... ^_* But I'll try to cut out the unnessecary stuff... note the word, try ...

Fanha: Okay, I don't wish to be drawn into a flaming war...I just wanted to leave this conversion...

This isn't a flaming war ... or at least I don't see anything here that could constitute as a real flame ... I've been in flamewars, I know what they look like ^_*

No, they don't make sense because you selectively post facts. If you made a fair comparison, that would be one thing, but when you only post what makes you look good, that's what I'm talking about.

Now you know why I accuse you of hypocrisy. Isn't your whole reason for this debate is to not look so bad since you'll use Mewtwo given half the chance? Also, since you're the one making positive claims (Slowbro is as cheap as Mewtwo therefore Mewtwo is not that cheap etc), it falls on you to provide the burden of proof. I'm only negating your statements.

I AM ONLY TRYING TO PROVE THEY WORK SIMILAR, NOT WHICH IS BETTER.

I could quote you, proving this as untrue, ya know. But I'm too lazy to search through all the messages again. Just don't try to use this to support yourself again or I will have to search for the evidence and make you look silly...

And rearranging your words and showing different examples of your points isn't "illegal", it just hurts your arguement because it shows some of your points aren't entirely correct.

OMG! In a debate, you NEVER change what the other person says just so you can counter it. If it hurts anything, it hurts your credibility as a debater and the credibility of your argument. What you are doing is misrepresenting me, which taken at the extreme is downright lying. I think there's a term for this in a court of law but since I'm not a Law student, the word escapes me at the moment ...

No matter what you think, it was still an outright flame. I don't see what else you could call it. Calling people idiots is one of the purer forms of flaming.

It wasn't a flame coz he said, "If". He genuinely thinks that you don't really think Mewtwo isn't cheap. Or the cheap he defines it as. You may call it another word ... like unbalanced, but that is the same thing as cheap.

So basically you are calling me a lier, and saying, even though you've never met me in person, how I think internally and stuff.

No, I think you're confused. And I go from other evidence from your other posts to make my conclusions. In other words, "If it smells like poo, looks like poo and tastes like poo, it probably is poo." No offence on the usage of poo, it was just the best analogy I could think of at the moment ...

That's EXACTLY my definition I gave earlier. What does having to put a Pokemon on your team have to do with "achieved with little effort"? I don't get it. I thing some people are confused.

YOU'RE the one confused, I'm afraid. There has been continual quoting of definitions and explanations, it's not anyone's fault you don't read things through properly.

Now for the billionth time, "what is achived with little effort?" It's the Victory (tm). Mewtwo makes winning easy(er).

BTW I reposted the definition at the end of this post. I suggest you read through it more clearly this time.

Well, yes, by flaming me, you signify to be you want me to flame you back. The golden rule says that...

Actually, I've only been responding to your posts. So if these are indeed flames, they are only responses to your flames *shrug*.

And he's not "fatally" weak; that's like saying Mewtwo is "fatally" weak to Bug...it's just weak...

So ... you think Slowbro being weak to grass and electric is on the same level of Mewtwo being weak to bug? If this is indeed your assertion then ... damn I better not say anything in case you think it's a flame *_*

If newbies enter the equation you're looking at a whole new environment with imperfect stats and the like...

*shrug* You're the one who brought Newbies into the argument (with Slowbro being more effective than Mewtwo since Newbies don't know about him) so don't look at me...

Slowbro can because "tankier" in stats than Mewtwo. His special can reach 999 after only one more turn,

Only one more turn? Turns are critical in Pokemon. Not to mention that Slowbro is just that ... slow. He will always lose the initative. If you say Toby, yet another turn is wasted from Thunderwave. But what happens if Toby is paralyzed himself?

Also consider that Slowbro is much more fragile than Mewtwo having 2 fatal weaknesses whereas Mewtwo has none. (Bug unfortuantely is not fatal or even minor). He has less chance of surviving those extra turns.

plus he has more defense from the start. I'm not showing they're equal, but they sure as hell are comparable. And there's more of this "fatally" weak stuff. Mewtwo would be "fatally" weak to physical attacks then; would you like me to dramatize as you were doing?

40 odd stat points is hardly worth mentioning considering both pokes are already in the upper percentile of defence points and both are not rock types. As for comparable you haven't proved anything yet, as everything you've said has been disproved. And Mewtwo being fatally weak to physical attacks ... that's a joke since *every* Pokemon (including your almighty Slowbro) is fatally weak to physical attacks with the conditions you're giving it (swords dance, explosion etc). Rock Pokemon you say? Swords Danced Earthquake. Besides your kamikazes are rendered null from substitute anyways (I remember arguing this before).

Now "critically" instead of "fatally"?

Yeah. So? They mean about the same thing. Do you want me to go back and edit my post to change it? -_-;; GEEZ! This is as bad as spelling nitpicking.

Anyhow, Swords Dance + Explosion = one-hit Mewtwo KO just like Focus Energy + Thunderbolt = one-hit Slowbro KO. And both will one-hit KO on a CH.

This is UNCOMPARABLE. SD + Explosion you *lose* one Pokemon as well. FE + Thunderbolt, you do not. And kamikazes are foiled by substitute - FE Tbolt are not (Slowbro put up a sub? So what - there are more Thunderbolts where that came from! You just lost 1/4 life for free).

*shrug* It's in strategy. If you can "lure" out your opponent's Electrics (play like a Starmie and such) and beat on them you should have a good latecoming Slowbro.

You're giving yourself unfair conditions again. Using your logic I could say Dragonites are God of Pokemon since I can 'lure' out Ice users. And your logic is also suicidal - it just killed itself, considering the same thing with Mewtwo. I can just 'lure' out your "Mewtwo-killers" and have a good latecoming Mewtwo.

It's still MORE than Mewtwo...that's saying a LOT...you're saying everything's less but this is more.

It's argumentatively not because Psychic also has 1/3 chance of lowering special. The tinsy bit of 5 power is made-up for.

And like I said, it's in strategy; it's not too hard to buy yourself ONE turn more.

What happens if the other player also uses strategy?

Slowbro's special is not "one of the worst".

Depends on how you look at it. It certainly has the worst out of the other psychic types. Also, what is the cut-off point for "worst"? The point is moot. Just that Slowbro has pretty bad special *shrug*. Worst is only a word to be nitpicked over.

And STAB on Water, no STAB on Ice, 'nuff said.

Who cares when you're already doing so much anyways? And a super effective is always better than a STAB. Mewtwo can capitalise on Super Effectives, whereas Slowbro usually can't - unless the opponent is silly and sends out a rock/ground/ground against it.

I've seen many teams without an Electric. Simple as that.

Leave the Newbies out of it (you're the one who introduced it, not me remember). At the higher levels of play there are *always* electrics and/or electric moves.

Actually, I've been showing his "raw stats" match Mewtwo's.

Let's see ...

Slowbro Mewtwo
393 415
248 318
318 278
158 358
258 406

Sorry, I don't see it matching up I'm afraid. The one stat he beats Mewtwo in is defence, but defence is irrelevant since Slowbro's critical (fatal if it makes you feel better) weakness depends on special. And like I said, at those numbers, the extra points are hardly significant.

The speed difference is assumed (one goes first, other doesn't; that simple).

I don't know about you, but speed is the most important stat in my honest opinion. You can't fight back if you're knocked out in one turn. Also, switching is a lot less riskier out against a slow Pokemon. (you don't miss 2 goes)

The attack difference is irrelevant on Slowbro.

It makes him less versatile. Attack is very important to your much personally highly acclaimed self destructing Mewtwo.

The defense difference gives Slowbro an edge.

No. I've explained it in my other posts and I just explained it again up above. Defence is IRRELEVANT. SD Explosion can kill Slowbro too - *and* he has lower HP.

Same Special potential in one more turn.

Which is a light year in the actual game. And you go *last* unless you have Toby after the 1st turn, but not if they have sub.

Slightly more HP on Mewtwo (not like 100 difference or anything big).

Unlike the other stats, every point of HP counts more. The way that Pokemon's formulas work is that having extra points of HP means more survivability than having extra points of special/defence. Sound familiar? Because that bit of info came from this very site.


There is NOT a HUGE RELEVANT stat difference.

Slowbro

Total=1375 AVG=275

Mewtwo

Total=1775 AVG=355

Yes there is a HUGE relevant stat difference. Even huger if you consider defence irrelevant for this comparison and count special twice.

I thought I had already showed that.

Quite frankly, no. You use the same argument that gets beaten every time.

Slowbro is behind Mewtwo, but not HUGELY behind him.

I consider it to be.

Numbers aren't everything, especially with Speed and unused stats.

Every stat is used. We are taking Slowbro and Mewtwo on generally who is the better/cheaper Pokemon? But you're right, numbers aren't everything, it's also the type and learnable moves.

Slowbro Mewtwo
Water/Psychic Psychic

No contest, Mewtwo is the winner. No weaknesses, unlike Slowbro.

Moves? I think you know Mewtwo beats out Slowbro at that too. The most glaring one being that Slowbro can't learn Thunderbolt. The only good thing is earthquake, but since no electrics can learn amnesia and are generally fragile ...

So you're looking at a Speed advantage for Mewtwo, slight HP and Special advantage,

Slight special advantage? Did you know Slowbro has the worst special out of all the psychics? Mewtwo has 148 stat points higher. That's almost as much as Slowbro's whole speed! Which basically guarantees that a CH will kill him outright when faced with his weaknesses. And Amnesia is not a factor when you consider he has to setup when a good strategist will *not* let you do that. And even if you do, a hazer can ruin you or a CH.

You obviously can't respect the classic one-for-one sacrifice. Comes clear from the game of Chess, a game of strategy. If you get a more powerful opponent, the trade was worthwhile.

Well, yeah, but it doesn't factor in to Mewtwo's cheapness. If you have to sacrifice a Pokemon for that, it helps our argument. Besides, kamikazes are way too risky. Sub can wreck it or a switch can as well. By the way, don't put in any more chess examples as the post starting off this thread already ruined that one for you.

but with Mewtwo gone Slowbro is blatently "cheap" almost at the Mewtwo level.

No. If there was no such thing as electric types or grass types (or their respecting moves), only *then* Slowbro would be as cheap as Mewtwo. And maybe not even - you could make a strong case for Snorlax as well.

I just stick by the fact he's not cheap.

Shall I whip out the dictionary.com's definition again? No, not just yet, let me quote something for you =)

I take my definitions from a book called the "dictionary"...

Do you now? Then take this:

cheap (chp)
adj. cheap·er, cheap·est.

Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.

Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.

I snipped out the irrelevant definitions this time. A Mewtwo victory is definitely a "cheap" victory. A Mewtwo player against a non-Mewtwo player can win with little effort.

You say you have Mewtwo Killers? Fine, but then all things being equal, the Mewtwo Player gets to pick strong Pokemon to back himself up as well (like say... TobyBro, Mew, Exeguttor, Snorlax etc) and let Mewtwo go last. What happens when your fine "Mewtwo-killers" bite the dust before Mewtwo comes out? Boom, you lose. And the funny thing is that even if you do have a surviving Mewtwo-killer, you'll probably still lose.

A strategist with Mewtwo on their already excellent team *will* beat a strategist of around equal level who doesn't have Mewtwo 99.6% of the time. The other .4 percent is for the times the other guys gets lucky. But since luck shouldn't be part of the equation since all things should be equal other than Mewtwo ...

I think that sums it up ...

Seeyas!

PS I say 99.6% because that seems to be the percentage of the most accurate moves in Pokemon other than swift =p

------------------
-
*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-19-2000, 03:20 PM:
 
Acey, that's a NICE post. Very nice. Good work. I think the anti-Mewtwo side has proven its point.

------------------
"Yeah Ramon. That'll happen."
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 06-19-2000, 04:39 PM:
 
I think both sides proved their points LOOOOONG ago.

------------------
"It will make you laugh, cry, want to kill Fanha, laugh again, cry some more, want to kill TeeJay, etc."
-StarCaliber, on Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited
 


Posted by Argo (Member # 49) on 06-19-2000, 05:18 PM:
 
I completely forgot:

Your excellent Mewtwo killing strat,fanha..Electrode,t-wave,explode,then snorlax,self destruct?

First way to counter it has been mentioned,take down the trode and lax,then bring out Mewtwo.

Another way,is:

Electrode used T-wave!mewtwo was paralyzed!
Mewtwo is fully paralyzed/Amnesia
Electrode used Explosion!
Electrode fainted!
Mewtwo is down to whatever
X sent out Snorlax!
Z switched to Gengar!
Snorlax used self destruct!
Snorlax Fainted!
It doesnt effect enemy gengar...

Yep...once you see trode t-wave you,and blow up,and see snorlax come in,it's easy to predict he has a normal move.

Even with quake,that leaves two slots left.

One of them is amnesia,rest,one of them,and or a special attack.

That makes a imperfect lax.

And you dont imagine how counterable snorlax is when gengar has Confuse ray+psychic+DT+rest.

Huge attack,crap defense,hurt from confusion=bad.

while he's stalled by the hurting,he gets tossed into oblivion,only 4 tosses are required if he hurts himself twice.And even with FULL amnesia,NO special moves besides psychic from lax can down gengar...

And gengar is HELLA popular...so dont try to bring up the argument you are thinking about.

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AIM:Argothian Wurm
"Ditto! use your special of 2 to launch an overpowering psychic blast!"
-cfalcon

If you think variety is "sad", then you can just bite my shiny metal ass.
-Mr. K

-Argo
 


Posted by Givera (Member # 234) on 06-19-2000, 06:34 PM:
 
Umm... okay I've been out of town for the last two weeks and I come back to find a 193 reply post about the cheapness of Mewtwo... THANX GUYS!! You expect me to read it all??
I'll assume it's been brought up that every one has there own opinion and no one can force a change of some one else's...
I think Mewtwo should be allowed in Tourney's for one MAJOR reason - Everyone has access to him... it's not like only certain people can get him...
If YOU don't want to use Mewtwo go ahead don't - A lot of people do fine against M2 teams w/out using him; learn from them how to handle M2's...
Like whoever started this threed Mewtwo is like the Queen in chess - and just like the Queen everyone has access to using him!
Well that's my opinion... now I'll continue to TRY to read through the 193 posts and discover that someone else already made the exact same argument as i did...
-Givera

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"Yea..." -Heero Yuy
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-19-2000, 09:54 PM:
 
Heh, Givera, the Mewtwo = Queen thing was in the very first post starting this monster thread ^_*. I suggest if you're gonna get sucked into the trap like us, you read through the whole thing. It is in fact quite entertaining. Like someone said (StarCaliber?), "it'll make you laugh, cry, make you want to kill XXX, make you laugh, cry some more then want to kill YYY"

(XXX and YYY depends on whose side you wanna take *grin*)

And StarCaliber, thanks, I'm glad some people are enjoying the points I discuss...

Seeyas!

(Personally, we have a Poke Tour coming up this Saturday as well, I think a PokeSta one. Ya know what? I am *not* going to use Mewtwo even if he is allowed. But I will use Mew if he is allowed. I personally like Mew *_*. I'll probably use my 4 way max surfin Pikachu as well *big grin*).

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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Posted by Fish (Member # 267) on 06-20-2000, 08:23 PM:
 
OK, this was originally posted by Fanha WAY back.
After all this pointless debate, it still holds true.

quote:
Originally posted bt Fanha:
Doesn't anyone seem to realize that ANY hard-hitting physical attacks work? Hyper Beam, Body Slam w/ STAB, Earthquake, Selfdestruct, Explosion; they all work. And
they work against most other popular Pokemon. And if you can't counter Mewtwo and still take on others, change your team strategy. Here's a couple general rules to make a team that does great and still kills Mewtwos/Mews.

1. Use Thunder Wave. A lot. Works on anything. Gives you extra hits when you need them.
2. Use a kamikaze or two. They're fun to play, and blow the Mewtwos away!
3. DO NOT focus your entire team on special attacks. Using all Slowbro, Exeggutor, Snorlax w/ Amnesia/Ice Beam, and the like is varied, but you need to go after physical damage, too. It's equally as important to diversify between types as it is to diversify between physical and special attacks; THIS IS THE BIG ONE THAT PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET.
4. Don't poison or Toxic. They just aren't worth it.
5. Play at least 1 guy with Amnesia (Snorlax, Slowbro, Mewtwo, etc.) and usually one guy with Swords Dance (usually Mew). This gives you two huge powers in different styles of damage to hit a Special or Defense weakness mattering upon the opponent.
6. Don't be a poor sport. Everyone gets swept, even by non-DTing, non-Amnesiaing
guys sometimes. I've been nearly swept by a lucky Lapras with Confuse Ray, even
with Mewtwo and Mew.
7. Be quick when dealing with Mewtwo/Mew. Go for quick, high damage attacks, and deny powerup time. With Mewtwo, go STRAIGHT for physical attacks; special attacks can become useless. Paralyzing is crucial.

If you try the above, Mewtwo, as well as any other Pokemon, shouldn't be a major
problem. I don't have trouble with them, and if I don't, and we're playing the same
game, that means you can learn to not have trouble with them. Adapt, grow,
develop; that's what it's all about!


Well, sure, it is not too detailed.
And sure, it may look stupid after all the senseless arguments, but when it comes down to it, it is all true.

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"California is the Japan of America." -Jim Webber (aka VaporeonsHaze) on how there are a high number of respected trainers residing in California
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-21-2000, 02:41 AM:
 
Yeah that quote was me Acey. I think anyone who reads your posts and is on the anti-Mewtwo side can see that pretty much everything you've said is pure gold. I would be posting right alongside you, but I'm quite lazy (and much of what you said, I'd just be repeating ).

I'll keep reading this topic, but I doubt you're gonna see more giant posts outta me. *Resumes playing Perfect Dark...*

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"Yeah Ramon. That'll happen."
 


Posted by Dark Jaguar (Member # 187) on 06-21-2000, 05:08 AM:
 
Okay, sorry if this point has already been made before, but I must say something.

Okay, now from what I see there are many strategies for defeating a Mewtwo. This might force you to use certain pokémon to win, but that is not unfair. I mean, would you say that Golem forces you to use a water type to win? (Note: I know he can be defeated other ways, I am merely using this as an example.) I hope not, so why would his high special and psychic type forcing you to pick from a certain list of strategies be unfair? My answer: it doesn't.

Okay, now for the object of having fun whether you win or loose, and I totally agree with that (notice how lots of people find ways to agree with their opponent in an argument to be the bigger person? ). I can have great fun without winning. Now, you say that having to use the same types over and over becomes boring and repetetive, well I agree. This is why I point this out, Mewtwo is NOT always gonna be on a pro-Mewtwo guy's team! I like Mewtwo, he's cool and can dish out a lot of damage, but I also know he can be defeated by good strategy. That is why I mix it up by using a variety of teams which might not include Mewtwo or Mew or Snorlax (Snorlax is my favorite so he is usually there though). All you need to do is find an opponent who doesn't use Mewtwo, they are out there.

Now, the big problem here is that SO many trainers know too little about fighting against actual trainers. They are used to the standard battles against the computer, so they assume that Mewtwo will ALWAYS be the best (or, soon it will be Lugia). If you are always fighting these guys, you need to move on to tougher opponents, ones who know what they are doing. (Notice that I didn't go and label all the bad players as kids, kids can be very smart and sometimes a lot more mature than many adults.) These guys will probably use Mewtwo, probably not. Now, remember that certain powerhouses do require strategies that limit your choices, this is bound to happen (note that there is more than just mewtwo, tobybro and a large number of snorlaxes also pose a huge threat). If you don't want to be forced to use a certain group, don't. Find someone who prefers using a non-Mewtwo team if you must.

In the end, just have fun. If you find someone else who doesn't want to use Mewtwo good for you have fun. But don't call all who do use Mewtwo (and they can have just as much fun) cheap and worthless because Mewtwo is definetly not unstopable. Well, goodbye, let's end this argument and just allow each other to use our own customizations of teams as we see fit (try using the weakest vs. a team of the weakest, it is actually quite enjoyable).

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Welcome to DJ Inc., where everything is JUST fine.
 


Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-21-2000, 05:10 AM:
 
Well, here I am back with the large posts =P.

I've heard better "nigga" jokes.

*shrug* One man's bread may be another man's poison or something to that effect. *You* obviously wouldn't like the joke because it was aimed at Mewtwo-users. I actually found it disturbingly funny... (I could just imagine that Todd guy on Simpsons saying it if Bart ever thrashed him with Mewtwo)

The arguement SHOULD NOT have gotten mixed in here...our smart friend ARGO brought Slowbro in from another topic which basically said if people say a world with Mewtwo is cheap, then a world without Mewtwo is cheapened by Slowbro.

Are you sure he started it? IIRC, YOU and TeeJay were the ones who brought up the Slowbro VS Mewtwo angle.

Here's a quote:

http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum6/HTML/000135-3.html

Fanha responding to the definition of Mewtwo's cheapness: Going by that, Tobybro is cheap. He's weak to CH'ing T-bolts, as Mewtwo is weak to Danced Leech Lifes.

'Much higher' is a pretty shaky term. Tobybro is an awfully powerful Pokémon.

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with TeeJay.[/i]

Somewhat after that I posted my first "Slowbro VS Mewtwo" post, then it went further underway. And then now that you're losing this angle you're trying to back out of it...

Go ahead, I have nothing to hide.

See above.

I didn't change what you said, I just changed the wording into more literal terms (less "dramatic") to show how rediculous the actual point behind it is...

Okay, let's post the evidence.

What I said: When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor*

What Fanha says I said so he could attack it: Mewtwo changes luck

Me: Since Mewtwo is the best, he can be considered the most perfect out of all the Pokemon

What Fanha said to attack it: But he is not perfect.

Me: Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation.

Fanha (on Mewtwo to attack the above): Mewtwo is NOT good in EVERY situation.

Anyone can see here that you have completely mucked around with my wording to give it a meaning to easily counter. This is BAD debate ethics. *slaps you with glove*

By the way, you just comitted suicide again. Let us scientifically study that last statement you provided...

I didn't change what you said, I just changed the wording...

Paradox! You didn't change what I said, you just changed the wording ... it's the same damn thing! -_-;; Why would you change the wording? To give it a meaning you can attack of course.

According to his own cheap scale, Mew is also cheap, but he's denied that before.

*shrug* If he's cheap, then a whole bunch of other pokemon are cheap too. But Mewtwo is in a league of its own that its unquestionably cheap - except of course from people like you. Someone purely objective would agree it is way overpowered.

And WTF was this whole analogy about? And give me examples of your "evidence"...the only thing I'm seeing is a collective mind game here.

The analogy is that given all the observations I can rightly conclude my points. As for your "Mind Game" you keep spouting about, in the words of Princess Bride, "I don't think that word means what you think it means."

And I think I provide enough evidence.

WTF does "Mewtwo makes winning easy(er)." even have to do with forcing Pokemon on your team?

*sigh* like Mr K said, you've lost contact with the big picture. Now then ... *since* Mewtwo makes winning so easy, the only true way to combat it is with your *own* Mewtwo, that ties in to cheap as well. The easiest way to fight Mewtwo? With your own Mewtwo! BTW don't go into Mewtwo-Killer krap again ANY other Pokemon that isn't Mewtwo can be defeated by Mr M2. Know what's popular? Simply use the moveset for the job. You can't say that about any other Pokemon. Except for the possibility of Mew - but like everyone agrees it doesn't have such a cheap level of power to back it up.

Fanha on electric/grass VS Toby against Bug on Mewtwo: The damage is the same. There's my fact.

O_O. Since this isn't so obvious to you, let's look at raw numbers.

Pin Missile 20 damage for 2-5 turns
Twin Needle (only Beedrill) 25 damage X2

Coming from Jolteon (pathetic attack) or Beedrill (pathetic type and bad attack) although it does get a STAB (though 1.5X pathetic is still pathetic). Jolteon ties in speed, Beedrill is slower.

Against Mewtwo's good defence 278 and good hp 415. Super Effective? Really?

Now then on to Slowbro.

Thuderbolt 95 power. Thunder 120 power. Coming from Electric Pokemon who are ALL faster than Slowbro. 1.5X STAB. Great special (Magneton, Jolteon, Zapdos etc). Thunderbolt and Thunder are tm-able.

Razor Leaf. 55 power, nearly always CH for 110 power. Eats through amnesia. Solar Beam, 1 turn to charge, for 120 power. From Grass types with STAB and fair special.

Against TobyBro. Slowest Pokemon in the game. Against worst special out of the psychics 258. Who can get one-hit KOed by the above moves.

Conclusion: Grass/Electric against Slowbro does NOT equal Bug against Mewtwo.

You can say "he is weak to Electric, which is a popular type", but "he is fatally weak to Electric" is a very misleading and unclear way to say what you're apparently trying to.

Do you even KNOW what fatal means? It means causing death or disaster. Electric/Grass is definitely applicable for Slowbro. For Mewtwo, Bug is not.

There you go again. "Fatal" has nothing to do with weaknesses. "Commonly used" might be correct, but "fatal" is simply bad wording only aiming to be dramatic instead of being accurate.

Keep going, you're just making yourself look even sillier.

What's up with the plural? It's ONE turn.

Not assuming Thunderwave. Although that would have been a wasted turn anyways against a sub.

You and Argo both openly have skipped over points you don't want to deal with.

Oh really now? I think I've responded to every single point you tried to make. Not so with you, you going so far as to CHANGE my arguments. If I skipped something tell me now, so I can debunk that too.

And like I said I need you to show me a Mewtwo with Sub or Barrier that works.

Ahem? Grep has been continually mentioned. The only way to beat that is to PP waste. But you can PP-waste your almighty Slowbro as well. Also I could have a Sub, Thunderbolt, Amnesia, recover M2 just for taking out your Slowbro (I've seen plenty of people with these). Or replace amnesia with Double Team (for Attack/Sub/DT/Recover) and CH his slow-ass. Switch in a ground? Even though it's not applicable to a Toby, M2 contest, that means the oppenent can also switch in a water type. What happens when your ground dies? Or the other popular ice beaming Grep, which isn't effective on Toby and water/ices but on everyone else. Who says the M2 player can't also have a kik ass 5 other members of his team?

...but are both completely incorrect. They are trying to dramatize but turning your statements false.

Critical can be a synonym for fatal. I used the dictionary for fatal earlier. It seems you are the one completely incorrect.

As Sub "nullfies" kamikazes, switching to a Ground nullifies Thunderbolt. Happy?

No, because that involves switching, sub *doesn't*.

...and Slowbro operates basically the same way Mewtwo does in its "Amnesia" form.

And so does everything when it's double teamed up. And you're still missing the point as Slowbro is NOT cheap because he has weaknesses and must take a significant time to charge up and has pretty bad stats to start off from. Mewtwo has none of these disadvantages.

Huh? Example, please? I don't know what you are trying to imply.

You are assuming the Slowbro player uses strategy while the Mewtwo player can't. That is unfair conditions and I'm implying that your angle is wrong.

One more turn isn't eternity, especially if there's a switch.

What if there's a switch to an electric or razer leafer? Oops, Tobybro is dead. What if Mewtwo had thunderbolt/thunder? Oops, Tobybro is dead.

<snipped nitpicking over worst>

It's over so drop it. Oh, and stop forgetting that you need to charge up for amnesia when a strategist won't let you.

<snipped resisitances stuff>

Stop giving yourself unfair advantages again (Mewtwo's attacks will be not effective while your Slowbros will). Amnesiad Thunderbolt will do more than amnesiad Surf will on Mewtwo, and the probabilities are against you since if Toby CHs it does tiny damage, while if Mewtwo CHs, Toby dies.

If you're counting on super effective to "outclass" Slowbro, it's not happening.

Thunderbolt on Slowbro. Dead. I think it's definitely happening. By the way, if you're taking the stance that Toby is better than Mewtwo overall like with more are resistant to Mewtwo than to Toby, that is plain ridiculous. What happens if Toby comes against an electric or grass again? What exactly is your point? Ice is resisted by some things water doesn't? Big whoop.

Mewtwo is always faster, Slowbro is always slower; it's not relevent whether it's a 20 or a 2000 difference.

Actually it is because it means Mewtwo is faster than *all* Pokemon except for one, and ties with 2 others.

While Slowbro is the *slowest* tied with Snorlax IIRC. Other pokemon can get a crack at him before Slowbro can. Let's say I have a fully amnesiad Toby and I just killed something. Then the other guy suddenly brings out Venusaur. Oops, I can't kill him first because I'm too damn slow. What happens if Toby comes out against a fully-amnesiad Mewtwo?

Oops, dead agains coz he's too damn slow. You can't do the same trick with Mewtwo. Slowbro works DIFFERENT.

It can be worked around. Playing slow Pokemon is an art; some people can do it, others can't.

You can't work around the example I just gave. Switch out Slowbro you say? There goes all your powering up (and your argument about slowbro being cheap).

SD Explosion kills ANYTHING but Gengar

So there also goes your argument that Mewtwo is critically weak to physical attacks.

Um...NO...it's the shortest unit of time...and a light year is distance not time BTW

Duh! It's a figure of speech. Stop nitpicking all the time. I go to college and have done college level physics (and senior High School level) so I think I know what a light year really is. Your showing off does not impress me. GEEZ!

Anyhow, a turn is easy to buy, because even if your opponent takes ONE extra turn to switch or ONE extra turn pulling off that first DT, that's all it takes.

Not easy to buy against a good opponent. You are giving yourself unfair conditions again (the other guy is crap). One turn can mean your death against a counter (electric/grass).

But the HP difference isn't huge enough to make a HUGE impact.

It's big enough to render your "Mewtwo is much more weak to physical attacks, than Slowbro is" useless. How much points of HP would be equivalent to points of defence?

<snip accusation that I'm not using relevant data>

I already explained how they're relevant but you continue to ignore it. Your Cloyster, Rhydon argument is utter krap as well, since Cloyster has kinda weak special to go with his type disadvantages, and Rhydon ... has got his own huge plethora of weaknesses - including stats (krap special). You're right, stats aren't everything, but where have I argued this? I've also mentioned movesets and types which Mewtwo also has the best.

*repeat flag for those who listen the first time* THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT- <snip>

If you mean they are the same, that is *still* wrong. What exactly is your "working similar" definition anyway? For all I know it could be something that only exists in your mind and it's impossible for any of us to disprove it because it's your defintion and you can change it to suit what you want.

By the way I suggest looking AGAIN at the title of this thread. You are like that other thing someone mentioned in a different thread. A frog in the well. You are not looking at the big picture ...

...but Slowbro wins in raw power. He can break through even resistance quite easily.

Providing you let him power up. Providing Mewtwo doesn't capitalise on super effectives. Providing a lot of things.

1) Mewtwo can also be ruined by many of the things you talk about like CHs and such.

Mewtwo can't die from an CH less than an explosion or Self destruct from Snorlax. Try again.

2) You don't bring Slowbro against a Hazer. Not too hard considering Vaporeon is the only *common* one.

But you *can* bring Mewtwo against a haze. Try again.

3) A "good strategist" brings out Slowbro when the opponent has a Pokemon out they won't wantto retreat and thus forces Slowbro the powerup time.

Let the other guy be a good strategist too and Slowbro bites the dust.

4) Amnesia IS a factor; that's why the Special different is not *completely* relevant. Depending on CHs is like depending on one-hit KOs; it's not a huge case.

It's a factor since Slowbro is so slow. Amnesia takes time. This was argued out already. Look, I've got a TobyBro, I know how the thing works, don't assume I'm totally ignorant. There are times where I have a fully-amnesiad TobyBro ripping through the other team when suddenly I die to a CH off the first turn. CHs are *not* all that uncommon.

And your Sub arguement is moot (that IS a cool word!) until you can honestly show me that it works.

It's not my fault you refuse to open your eyes. And stop stealing my words =p

Like I said, denying Mewtwo even one attack opens up a whole 'nother realm of problems...

I find your double standard kind of funny. What attacks does TobyBro have again?

Na, Snorlax can't match Slowbro.

Snorlax with amnesia and thunderbolt will rock Toby. For a pure Toby killer replace the standard physical attack with double team. Or if things look shaky if you have self destruct, use it. I personally think Snorlax is better. He has less weaknesses than Slowbro has. (Fighting? Who uses fighting? Mr K knows about fighting ^_^;

And if there weren't such things as kamikazes or physical attacks, Mewtwo would be as cheap as you claim he is.

Mewtwo being really weak to physical attacks was already debunked. Try again. But not if you're just going to repeat another one of your favourite arguments which likewise were already debunked.

You can force the Mewtwo out.

Sorry, no unfair advantages such as skill level please. And remember, good pokemon on the M2 team as well.

There are ways, especially when you put out a Pokemon like Mew that nothing but Mewtwo can deal with.

There are more counters for Mew IMO. Snorlax is pretty good IMO (all other things being equal). Your beloved Toby even. Exeguttor, Aerodactyl ... I'm sure plenty of people have made Mew counters. He is not as hard as Mewtwo.

And you can hold back too.

How can you hold back when the Mewtwo player has great Pokemon too?

Plus, playing the Mewtwo last gives you plenty of setup time without a powerful attacker to start pummeling you. Slowbro, anyone?

Jolteon/Magneton/Zapdos/Venusaur/Victreebell/electric move user/etc anyone? What if the Mewtwo player also has Slowbro? Whoops.

Na.

<immature> Yea. </immature>

Seeyas!

PS Fish, everyone knows there are counters for Mewtwo. But does that mean he's not cheap? Read through every post if you haven't already. The definition of cheap is quite a good eye-opener...

PSS That's okay SC, I don't get tired of debating myself ^_^;;

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-21-2000, 05:21 AM:
 
Dark Jaguar, your points were already gone over pretty much.

In summary - being forced to use certain pokemon just to have a worthwhile chance *is* indeed unfair. Your Golem example is not applicable since MANY other pokemon can kill it such as grass types, water types, or Pokemon with grass and/or water tms, or something with hard-hitting special. Mewtwo does not have any weaknesses. (If you're going to argue physical weakness don't bother - just read back for them, I think it might be in pages 3-4).

Oh and the thing is, every non-Mewtwo strategy you can come up with to defeat Mewtwo can be nullified by a counter-strategy/moveset. You can't say that about any other Pokemon except perhaps Mew (but who is not as hugely powerful). *That* is pretty cheap.

(Find the definition of cheap on Page 4 if you're unsure what we mean by it). Now then, now that we've established Mewtwo as cheap, that makes the people who use him just so they can win "cheap trainers."

Fanha summed it up by the following words: If you want to win, use Mewtwo/Mew.

The above is a "cheap" strategy.

Seeyas!

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-21-2000, 05:38 AM:
 
Me: The easiest way to fight Mewtwo? With your own Mewtwo!

I suppose I should clarify this by what I exactly meant (for the nitpickers). The easiest way to fight Mewtwo (meaning best way to win against a M2 team) is by using your *own* Mewtwo team. That makes it balanced.

Of course, Mewtwo VS Mewtwo directly is the most balanced way to fight, but it tends to get rather boring with all the PP-wasting. That's why it's more efficient to try and defeat the other guy's Mewtwo with the rest of the team specifically made to work together and pull him down so that your *own* Mewtwo can sweep the rest.

All should agree that at the highest level of play, the above takes place more often than not. Since the whole damn game revolves around M2, it should be obvious to note the cheapness of it. (unless you are purposely deluding yourself because you do not want to be considered cheap).

Seeyas!

~Ace


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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
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Posted by Acey (Member # 309) on 06-21-2000, 09:39 PM:
 
Fanha: You started to argue; I just gave a perfectly valid example.

No you didn't. Your example was that Slowbro dying to thunderbolt was on the same level as Mewtwo being MUCH more susceptible to physical attacks. I proved that wrong.

This was taken to another topic. It shouldn't be here.

You STARTED it here. So it's your fault (it wasn't Argo who started it like you accused).

You didn't. My statement holds true.

You sput that off, but anyone can see what you are really trying to prove. By the way, it's impossible for me to prove that point explicitly but I did prove a lot of other things.

If you wouldn't make such general statements I wouldn't be able too.

You are giving my statements completely different meanings. Let us now see...

When you use Mewtwo all the probabilities are *in your favor* = when Mewtwo is used, ALL probabilities, including freezing, CHs, etc., are in your favor = Mewtwo makes freezing and CHs more likely

Does NOT equal. Where have I mentioned that freezing is in Mewtwo's favor? By the way CHs are in Mewtwo's favor though. And if you took it in the context I gave it in the first place, the probabilities are for WINNING.

FALSE, because it's simply not true. Even Mewtwo doesn't change these things.

It's false given the meaning YOU gave it. This is what I meant by changing my words so you can can attack it. My God, do you use a microscope for your nitpicking ability?

Since Mewtwo is the best, he can be considered the most perfect out of all the Pokemon = on a "perfection scale", Mewtwo would be highest = there is such thing as a "perfection scale"

Now this is correct given the definition I gave for perfection. That was WINNING in Pokemon. Interesting how you didn't mention it.

By the way this isn't what you argued before, you said that I was claiming Mewtwo was perfect. A flat out lie, and you even changed your own words this time.

Mewtwo has the capability of rocking hard in *every* situation. = Mewtwo can do very well in every situation = in ANY possible scenario, Mewtwo can do very well

This is correct. (by the way, this ISN'T what you said earlier as well. More lying.)

Haven't I argued this before? You're ignoring stuff you've already been disproved on. For EVERY strategy/moveset you can give a non-Mewtwo Pokemon, there is a strategy/moveset, Mewtwo will beat.

FALSE, I have given counter-cases before.

You said there was a billion ways to beat Mewtwo. And I responded with, give me your billion ways and I will give you a billion ways to destroy them. Come on, I'm still waiting.

I think I didn't word that correctly.

Excuses, excuses...

What I mean was I didn't change the POINT behind the statements;

Oh yes you did.

I simply showed their implications. See above. I just changed the wording to make the outrageous hidden claims apparent; you made those statements, not me.

You changed the point AND the implications. And now you're trying to change waht you originally said 2 out of 3 times. Not good debate ethics I'm afraid.

An algorithim is objective in its purest form.

Look at the thread Mr K started, "Mathematics of Cheap".

The facts and numbers don't lie.

It shows that either that's not Mr. K's "cheapness" algorithim, or he's not objective, and he judges Mewtwo for social reasons, too, which an algorithim can't figure.

Now an accusation on Mr K? Like I said, facts and numbers don't lie. He may not consider Mew to be cheap and he is perfectly in the right to do so. Mew's stats/type and possible movesets are overshadowed by the cheapness that is M2. Swords Dance you say? Amnesia.

And an objective person would probably think Slowbro and Mew were overpowered, though their outward looks might show otherwise.

An objective person would ONLY look at the numbers and facts. Looking at the numbers nad facts, it is easy to conclude.

Pokemon doesn't work that way. You only have ONE moveset you can use. And you have to face SIX other Pokemon. He can't just pick "the moveset for the job" for each one. That's why he's not cheap.

YOU are picking the moveset for the job so why can't I? Unfair conditions. Sure, you can have your amnesia, surf and I can have something dumb like, submission, mega punch, mega kick and mist. Yeah ... right.

And we are discussing "cheapness" here. That means overall, is Mewtwo a cheap Pokemon? The fact he is the best by a high margin (raw numbers, facts) and that he can beat any other Pokemon in the game, means he is the easiest to win with means he is cheap. There ya go.

But then it becomes fair, so the whole cheap concept goes out the door...

This was argued out already. I'm not going to repeat a million things just so you can ignore them. Do me a favour and go back to pages 2-3-4 and re-read the counters so I won't have to repeat them yet again.

My point was it still does 2x damage. You stretched it way too far.

But 2X WHAT damage? This is a pathetic argument to take and is not worth you.

Okay, then if that's your definition, I can clearly state Mewtwo is FATALLY weak to physical attacks.

It's the dictionary's definition not mine. Oh and if you consider Mewtwo fatally weak to physical attacks then you consider EVERY non-rock-ghost type fatally weak to physical attacks. In this case, who cares if he is?

Did I see "Tobybro" in my arguement?

Okay, now I know you're not using Toby. Good.

Nope. I usually don't play it with T-wave. Usually Surf, Amnesia, Rest, (DT/Psychic/Sub).

Okay if you don't play T-wave, then you come across a whole new plethora of weakness. You will always go last, you don't get the 25% fully paralyzed, you have to charge up more (DT) etc. Since you will always go last, that makes that one extra turn to amnesia up than Mewtwo even harder to get.

You even stated you were skipping stuff,

If I've skipped stuff, it's because it's already been argued. If I didn't please enlighten me.

as did Argo. And I'm not taking the time to see WHAT you skipped...I'm TRYING to leave, but...

I'm sorry but if you're going to make accusations you have to provide proof. Otherwise I'm going to have to consider you lying.

More Mewtwo/Slowbro similarities...

Similar in this instance. Your point? They are overall not at all similar in regards to cheapness. (don't argue this unless you are willing to go back and read over the counters properly).

and yes of course ANY Pokemon with one attack is blatently asking to get stalled... <snip stuff> Mewtwo can't do NEARLY as much damage on Mews and the popular like because STAB with Psychic is cancelled by resistance; STAB with Surf remains and thus Slowbro does BETTER than Mewtwo by quite a bit against Mew and other Psychics.

Only on those types. What about the stuff water is resisted on? Starmie with Thunderbolt, Light Screen, Minimise, Recover renders your argument null.

Your point is that Slowbro's STAB is better against psychics I can see that though. But as always a SE is always better than an STAB.

Hehe...*cough*Rhydon*cough*

Hehe, you didn't read through the rest of my post did you?

Oh sure, not only does he get stalled but he stalls himself but wasting 6 turns letting his opponent power up so he can stall! That's downright rediculous.

This was against Slowbro, yes? Well the example Mewtwo is obviously a staller yes? But stalling in his favor because one CH and Slowbro is dead.

If it's 3-on-3, and Mewtwo is allowed, my lineup is Mewtwo w/ T-bolt, Slowbro, Rhydon.

So you sell out and use Mewtwo yourself in this argument. I think you just comitted suicide again.

Your Water won't stand a chance against MY Mewtwo.

I'm glad you realise that waters don't stand a chance against Mewtwo.

And when Mewtwo is allowed, I take him for situations like that.

Yes, you have to use Mewtwo to guarantee your win don't you?

Who says the Slowbro player can't have a Mewtwo if you do AS WELL as four other kick-ass guys?

The whole argument was about how Mewtwo is so superior to other Pokemon, you had to have one yourself. Do you realise how silly your argument looks when you do break down and use him?

Na, because the kamikaze can still damage you; the Electric can't,

Sorry, but switching implies you need a team of more than one poke to defeat the Mewtwo. And the kamikaze kills himself - you risk a lot. What if Mewtwo switches a Rhydon on your kamikaze? I can use your own logic against you.

or if they have non-Elec attacks, Slowbro's not taking it. And who said Slowbro can't have Sub?

No one did. But you honestly think sub is gonna help you against his weaknesses? Like I said before, "Slowbro made a sub? Well there's more thunderbolts where that one came from!"

1. Slowbro has higher defense, plus he doesn't CH while Amnesiaed NEARLY as often as Mewtwo.
2. Mewtwo's chargeup time is ONE turn less than Slowbro's.

Not arguing this as the above has been proved wrong ALREADY. Stop using outdated points. The only thing new is the CH thing. That's good. But it's bad if Mewtwo has thunderbolt. CH Thunderbolt from Mewtwo WILL one-hit KO a Slowbro (max stats for both). I've come across plenty of real life stituations to know it's true.

What do you mean by "using strategy"? It's quite confusing without examples to show what you're trying to show.

Okay just for you, you are assuming the Slowbro is "smart" while the Mewtwo is "dumb." There ya go.

Let's not do all these STUPID what-if fill in the blanks...it's been done too many times already...

It's stupid because you can't counter them. What does happen when you have a fully-amnesiad Slowbro and suddenly a Razer Leafer pops out? (who is definitely faster than Slowbro). Switch? Oops, I guess Slowbro is nowhere near as cheap as Mewtwo.

Now you're killing your own "Mewtwo is cheap" arguement with my own arguements against it (I think youu see how);

How so? Mewtwo is not as fragile as Slowbro, he doesn't need to fear much while powering up, and he only needs 2 turns, while amnesiaing up one turn already nets him 812 special, more than enough to kill a weak-special phyisical attacker.

But this has been smentioned already in depth. Go re-read pages 2-3-4 and prove yourself wrong with those.

I'll gladly make the tradeoff because that's an assumed fact, and if it isn't true, the whole Slowbro debate is over, because nothing is cheap!

I'm sorry.

Now you're comparing our "prince of cheap" to your "king of cheap"; of course Slowbro can't beat him most of the time.

Not prince of cheap, make that "dunce of cheap" compared to Mewtwo. Less enough cheapness that he is not in fact cheap. By the way, I thought you were arguing that Slowbro is as cheap as Mewtwo (that's what your similar means right?).

Thanks for backing out and admitting yourself wrong.

What's with this? You're bringing back this "Slowbro is better than Mewtwo" thing which I clearly said was a lie and I never said it,

If you read carefully, I said that it seemed that's what you were implying .. *shrug*

and you have yet to "quote me". And you were talking like your Ice has some "super effective" bonus that is better than Slowbro's STAB with Ice Beam.

No I wasn't. And Slowbro doesn't have STAB with Ice Beam in the first place. Like I said I have honestly no clue what the heck your point here is. Care to enlighten me?

Let's rephrase that: In ANY GIVEN SITUATION, Slowbro is *almost* always slower, and Mewtwo is *almost* always faster. You misinterpretted me.

What you were arguing was that those hundreds of extra speed points that Mewtwo has over Slowbro doesn't matter. *shrug* I simply argued that they do matter.

This really doesn't mean anything, because I've admitted Mewtwo is overall better than Slowbro and that's a HORRIBLY misbalanced example you're giving.

Heh! Sorry, but I was contrasting that even fully-powered up Slowbro still has much to fear.

What about vice-versa? The Mewtwo wouldn't fare too well with Amnesiaing itself.

Sure Mewtwo would. Mewtwo is faster so it gets to amnesia up to 812. An amnesiad surf wouldn't kill him then. Then Mewtwo amnesias again, recovers and if he has thunderbolt, starts flinging them like crazy.

And we never even said they were EQUAL...

Okay, what exactly does your "similar" mean then?

Same with Mewtwo; once again, you're killing your own arguement.

Not really. Where have I said that Mewtwo ever really needed to switch when it was fully pumped up? BTW don't take the thunderbolt Mewtwo example, it has no relevance with this point. That was just an extreme TobyBro killer.

Huh? Um...no...
He is weak to even the *normally* non-fatal attacks...

Who is weak? Mewtwo? This was argued out already. See page 4 I think. Mewtwo is NOT weak to physical attacks (comparably if you just want to nitpick). If he is, then Slowbro and every non-rock/ghost type is too.

And another arguement goes uncountered...you really didn't say anything of relevence.

What argument? You were trying to be smart and telling me with much shrugness that a light year is distance. I said it was a figure of speech. (one turn is a light year in the game or something to that effect) I think I countered your point about that. Lets' see...

Anyhow, a turn is easy to buy, because even if your opponent takes ONE extra turn to switch or ONE extra turn pulling off that first DT, that's all it takes.

Not easy to buy against a good opponent. You are giving yourself unfair conditions again (the other guy is crap). One turn can mean your death against a counter (electric/grass).

Yeah, I countered it.

Not really. There are a million ways to get a "free turn", many natural:

But do they count in your Slowbro examples? Let's see.

- A miss

Thunderbolt/Razor Leaf is 99.6% accurate. Double Team you say? That takes even more turns to power up.

- Full paralysis

You said you weren't using Toby.

- Hitting self with confusion

I didn't know SlowBro had Confuse Ray/Supersonic. Wait, it does have confusion. Do you have confusion on your Slowbro?

- Extra power-up turn

I don't get what you mean by this.

- Opponent hits wrong button

.... I just cracked up laughing out loud then ^_^;;

- Any number of common occurences

Like what? Suddenly the other player falls over dead of heart attack?

Opponent: Hahaha, now your Slowbro dies to razor leaf!

You: Damnit! Slowbro was my last Pokemon!

Opponent: Now then ... ARGH UK, no! (clutches chest), Call the ambulance ... NO! Uk. (falls over dead).

You: (thoughtful pause) Yay, I win!

And these happen against GOOD players too...

Sure things can happen just out of random chance. But you haven't shown me that any of these random chances could realistically happen in this instance.

Figure it out; I don't think your "cancelling out" is true.

Hmmm ... at max stats, Toby has 40 points more of defence. M2 has 22 points more of hp. If we say at the LEAST with physical attacks, points of hp would be equivalent to 2 points of defence, Mewtwo wins out.

LOL! Most of your arguements have been listing stats and averages and stuff! And Slowbro doesn't need a huge moveset; he's got all he needs in one.

Sounds like someone's forgetting something. Let me quote myself:

Numbers aren't everything, especially with Speed and unused stats.

But you're right, numbers aren't everything, it's also the type and learnable moves.

Slowbro Mewtwo
Water/Psychic Psychic

No contest, Mewtwo is the winner. No weaknesses, unlike Slowbro.

Moves? I think you know Mewtwo beats out Slowbro at that too. The most glaring one being that Slowbro can't learn Thunderbolt.

Oh yeah, that one moveset your hyping up still won't help you out against his weaknesses.

Showing reasonable grounds that Slowbro would be considered cheap by the same algorithim that shows Mewtwo cheap.

All right. Now what was similar about Water/Psychic against Psychic again? Stats? Possible Movesets?

Actually, in a perfect world, Mewtwo WOULD work like Slowbro. That is, he is kick ass, but he has weaknesses that would kill him easily. Kinda like Electric and Ground (and Electric/Grass against Water =P). Hmmmm ... Nintendo must have been listening to the complaints otherwise why did Dark type get put in, in G/S?

Providing we already know Mewtwo is cheap and better than Slowbro in this world we're working with. That's the "assumed facts" here. Dispute those and the whole arguement is gone, and you're back to your "is Mewtwo cheap" arguement.

But I'm not disputing those. Mewtwo *is* cheap (with the defintion in the dictionary and taken by most people) and further in the argument it was established Mewtwo is better than SlowBro. That's what I've been arguing all this time. Do you agree? If so, the argument is over. Those "providing" statements were about Slowbro by the way. He simply has far and away more "providing statements" than Mewtwo does. Anything that can take Mewtwo down can take down Slowbro as well. But then, Slowbro gets added ways to take him down on top of those even further.

Even a "strategist" usually won't retreat a DTed Pokemon or something like that, especially if they don't have a recovery attack.

He will if he knows he has a Thunderbolter/Razer Leafer on the bench that can take it down more reliably. Just the same that I WILL switch a fully Double Teamed Jolteon if the other guy brings out a Rhydon or something similar. Even if I had Double Kick.

It's not my fault I'm never been shown an effective Sub Mewtwo. And I don't think one exists, short of a focused anti, which is just sad for a Mewtwo.

*Shrug* What is your criteria for "effective"?

One. But it does more damage than Mewtwo's best, and Mews, Mewtwos, and more populars don't resist it...

No one is disputing that it can hit hard. Whta is disputed is if he gets a chance to fully power up, and the fact remains that even fully pumped up, he still gets killed.

Oh, and Mewtwo doesn't need resistance when he has Amnesia as well (+ higher HP).

especially the high-special threats...short of another Slowbro, which proves cheapness acording to your Mewtwo examples.

You don't need resistance when you can kill it in one hit now do you? And where has it been said that the only thing that can take out Slowbro is another one? If that were true then yeah it would be cheap. But that's not the case is it?

Never seen a working one.

I don't get you. Are you so arrogant to assume that you've seen *everything* Pokemon has to offer?

Ice Beam is the only popular one I've seen. The Pokemon you're saying are so focused that I've never heard of such things used. Mewtwo's counters are very common and used frequently.

Oh really now, you've never heard of a Snorlax with Thunderbolt? Well anyways, you said Slowbro was better than Snorlax and could beat it or something to that effect. I simply said that Snorlax with Amnesia thunderbolt will rock Toby ... how is that wrong?

Not really.

Yes really. Try page 4 or so.

Actually, if you're good, you can *force* (do I need to put emphasis?) Mewtwo out; that means making Mewtwo the logical choice...like bait, except not taking it can mean worse punishment and being forced to anyhow. It's called FORCE because it's a situation you create where Mewtwo would be their only good choice. A situation where a strategist WILL send out Mewtwo.

Okay, what exactly is this situation that Mewtwo would be their ONLY choice to send out? Short of another Mewtwo and given the same resources the other player has, I don't see how so. Give me examples please. Mew you say? M2 player sends out Snorlax or their own Mew. etc.

Sure, but MOST people send out Mewtwo in response to a Mew.

Most people are actually quite crap. So?


Snorlax is better against Mewtwo himself...and he doesn't need to be as good as Mewtwo, as long as it's something Mewtwo will want to take.

Depends on the movesets.

For example, feign a Swift-Dancer, then Explode on the Mewtwo when they switch to him (odds are they will, or lose many more Pokemon, which is just as good).

All well and good, but you are depending on the skill (or lack of) of the other player here. Simply send out Exeguttor and sleep it or any of the other varied and effective counters. If they are holding Mewtwo back on purpose they are not going to be easily baited.

Just like in Chess, you can force a bad outcome in Pokemon but playing right.

And just like in Chess it ultimately depends on just how skillfull the 2 players are.

That's plain BS...

Okay, what's the weaknesses? If you're going to say defence or bug yet again, don't bother.

Thus you have the game of Pokemon...ANYTHING can be countered...Mewtwo is not above that...

Yes, if they have Mewtwo, use Mewtwo yourself. *Bleh*. I think this has been gone over before too.

Not really.

Yes, really. You said yourself that you do not want to challenge yourself and will continue to use Mewtwo/Mew. Unfortunately, I am going to have to call you cheap. Call a spade a spade ya know.

And if you don't, you don't play fair with yourself, you don't give your best,

When was this part of the argument? Read that header again. "Mewtwo's Cheapness."

and you shouldn't whine when you get beat over Mewtwo being cheap! And that's all it is: whining. Labeling something as cheap only shows that you haven't learned to overcome it and have to rationalize, thus you say it's "cheap" to make yourself feel better by making it "not your fault" you lost.

Actually, no one has been whining, certainly not me. I'm simply arguing a spade as a spade. What you are doing is arguing the spade as a shovel. And you do not want to be called cheap because it has negative connotations. That's the main reason why you argue.

And I KNOW when I have Mewtwo and I beat someone who doesn't have a Mewtwo, it wasn't a real victory. I feel shallow and dissatisfied. On the other hand if I purposely go against someone without a Mewtwo and they have one, if I lose I will not complain because I know I have challenged myself to ultimately see if I am indeed a better player than the other. On the other hand if you have a Mewtwo and the other player doesn't and they win, that is the ULTIMATE embarrassment in my eyes.

No, usually, in my game, it's:

- Starter Pokemon battle and die
- Somebody brings out something Mewtwo would do good against, and the opponent brings out Mewtwo
- Anti-Mewtwos deal with Mewtwo in a few turns
- Other player sends out Mewtwo
- Opponent brings out their anti-Mewtwos and quickly kills the other Mewtwo
- The rest of the Pokemon battle

Like I said, Mewtwo usually only sees a couple turns of action during most of my matches, especially my own (Kamiewtwo)...hehe. Of course it can't be shown, but 80-90% of the battle is in the first and last steps.

That's good. But do you really think that your battles are representatives of everyone else's?

Well ... no more to reply to ...

Seeyas!

~Ace

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*** Ace ***

http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
"How strange... It's wilting... Ha! Ha!" - Lilith
-
 


Posted by maagisk (Member # 536) on 06-25-2000, 07:11 PM:
 
OK! now dont get me wrong but i didnt read the whole thing read very well, you can say that i skimmed it. but i dont see how fanha can be a cheap trainer. i mean, if you can call hom cheap for teaching his pkmn thunderwave or something that anoyes trainers isent really cheap, its smart. i read some war story about fanah almost beating off a team of all m2's, it was kinda a cool story but he didnt do good because his team was cheap but because he played the battle the smart way, i say you look at the battle and see what moves he taught his pkmn. now any trainer could have used the same pkmn as he did, but not everyone is smart enough to use the same strategy as he used. now im not sure if im wording this right, but the pkmn arent cheap, but the reason he's so successfull, is that he used a good stradegy, not that his pkmn or attacks are cheap.

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Posted by kadabra 2.0 (Member # 484) on 06-25-2000, 07:31 PM:
 
...Mewtwo used with strategy beats X pokemon used with strategy. It tends to also beat X and Y pokemon both used with strategy.

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- Kadabra 2.0 the White
 


Posted by maagisk (Member # 536) on 06-26-2000, 11:36 AM:
 
Sorry, i guess i didnt read it clearly enough. but thats not the point, the point is u didnt win cause you were cheap, but because you were stategic(i think thats how you spell it)

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Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-26-2000, 05:38 PM:
 
Well, Biffster and I tried something similar to Fanha's Mewtwo Army Story. We had Scyther7164 Shark up 6 Max Stats L100 Mewtwos, and we agreed to fight him with our teams (each pick 3, just like Fanha and Sama did). I grabbed my Electrode, Exeggutor (complete antiMewtwo moveset. Sleep Powder, DT, Leech Seed, Double Edge), and Mew (like I said, I have no problem with Mew). Biffster took his Jolteon, Snorlax, and Gengar (trickery Pokemon with Confuse Ray, Toxic, DT, Rest). In review...

StarCaliber
-Electrode
-Exeggutor
-Mew
Biffster
-Jolteon
-Snorlax
-Gengar

versus...

Scyther7164
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)
-Mewtwo (Max Stats)

Now, you must remember who was controlling these Mewtwos. Scyther had given all of them the moveset T-bolt, Ice Beam, Amnesia, Recover. However, in a last second decision, the moron decided he wanted "variety." So he took 3 of them and replaced Ice Beam and T-Bolt with Flamethrower and (oh, this is rich) DIG. Of course, Stadium branded him as a cheater, but Biffster and I agreed to play him anyway.

If it weren't for Scyther's crap-happy movesets, he woulda pulled it off easily, but Biffster and I only let him get one Mewtwo fully powered up, and there was an Electrode with that Mewtwo's name on it. However, he did let Mew get powered up near the end, and he lost by 1 Pokemon.

I'm not saying that Mewtwo is unbeatable, but that was one of the most boring matches I have ever played.

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"Sometimes I pour Pepsi down the air vents."
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 06-26-2000, 09:13 PM:
 
Well, we didn't even know that he was using a Mewtwo with Flamethrower until he battle was starting, so we didn't think too much of it. But Fanha, those Mewtwos were awful, and I feel that if anyone other than Scyther7164 was controlling those Mewtwos, they would have beaten the living snot out of Biffster and me. And I'm not kidding. The custom made Mewtwos that you mentioned probably could've beaten us even if Scyther was using them. Remember, you have to take into account the skills of the opposing trainer as well as the number of Mewtwos used. Heck, I bet that even the Stadium AI could've beaten us with those Mewtwos.

Yeah, I realize yours were already there. That's cool, cuz remember, any Mewtwo is a dangerous one. So your feat was quite good. BTW, I think I'm gonna have Scyther shark those movesets you listed on to his Mewtwos now. That should make for an interesting battle...

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"Sometimes I pour Pepsi down the air vents."
 


Posted by MasterMew2 on 07-06-2000, 10:39 AM:
 
Ouch... 5 whole pages

I am a Mewtwo user,and in my opinion, the Mewto haters are the cheap, skill-less ones.

How? For one, they try to get rid of Mewtwo by banning him, not by using their, "AMAZING SKILLS". If they realy where that good, they would have had a solution done by now (Like me (Yes, I have figured a Combo for taking Mewtwo down)).

Second, they act like Mewtwo was included in only a few random game packs. If this where true, I would be on their side.

They say he can be gained, and used, with little skill.

Dumb*ss threw Master Ball
Dumb*ss caught Mewtwo

Wrong again. If you want a Mewtwo, Dumb*ss would have to:

Beat all 8 Gym Leaders
Get the Master Ball
And not use it for other Pokemon
Beat the Elite 4
Get throught the Unknown Dungeon
And a whole bunch of training.

Much more then you think.

P.S. Mewtwo supporters, if you want that Mewtwo killing Stradegy, E-Mail me at MasterMew2@hotmail.com

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MasterMew2
 


Posted by kadabra 2.0 (Member # 484) on 07-06-2000, 11:37 AM:
 
Beating the game isn't exactly an awe-inspiring feat. And pretty much for any combo one has to beat Mewtwo, Mewtwo has some way to block it....

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- Kadabra 2.0 the White
 


Posted by VaporeonsHaze (Member # 252) on 07-06-2000, 03:35 PM:
 
::News Flash::
"MasterMew2, newbie with 8 posts finds a Mewtwo beating strategy that no one else has though of and will defeat Mewtwo everytime no questions asked"
Hahahaha, shut up MM2.

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"You're a FAKE!" Counterfit: Limp Bizkit
 


Posted by MasterMew2 on 07-07-2000, 11:09 AM:
 
NewsFlash!!

The Electrode/Dragonite/Thunder Wave/Wrap Combo works!!! And thats all that matters

Can't say the same about TobyBro:
"Mewtwo used ThunderBolt"
"TobyBro fainted"

In other news, the Samonella found in the shrimp sause was caused by the Brainless flamer, Psycho Monkey/TIPPWOT. He had this to say:

"I hate Mewtwo cus...UH...he beat my Caterpie, and Caterpie was supposed to win, cus its a Bug. I wanna win... WHAAAA!!!!"

In other News, 9 children go deaf, from hearing Psycho Monkey/TIPPWOT cry.

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MasterMew2
 


Posted by psycho monkey on 07-07-2000, 12:01 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by MasterMew2:
NewsFlash!!

The Electrode/Dragonite/Thunder Wave/Wrap Combo works!!! And thats all that matters



NEWS FLASH!!! NO IT DOESNT!!!! you are an idiot if you think that works, you arent the only person that has thought of that! ugh...

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And then it came to me, I can dip my butt in shrimp sauce and slam it on a canvas!

PBS:Sirocco, challenge me sometime, AIM: Psychodic monkey
 


Posted by Imakuni? (Member # 393) on 07-07-2000, 12:40 PM:
 
I wasn't going to post in this topic, but what the hell. All I'm going to say is that this debate over Mewtwo is STUPID. You don't like him, don't use him. You don't want to battle him, tell your opponent before the fight begins. You want to beat him, invent movesets that work. The point is, Mewtwo was created to be used as a Pokémon, and that's how he should be used. If there was no Mewtwo, you would just find the Pokémon with the next highest stats and call it cheap. You say that Mewtwo's low defense can be countered with Barrier or Reflect, but how many people do you see that use a Mewtwo like that? Okay, now that my rant is over, you can go back to your hourly Mewtwo bashing.

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Creator of the following Pokémon:

Rapidash(Zeus) - Toxic, Fire Spin, Fire Blast, Agility
Exeggutor(Caeser) - Toxic, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Double Team
Porygon(Polly) - Thunder Wave, Sharpen, Tri Attack, Recover
Mewtwo(Oddjob) - Thunder Wave, Seismic Toss, Hyper Beam, Rest

"Who is cuter, Pikachu or me?" - Imakuni?
 


Posted by Charmeleon411 (Member # 99) on 07-07-2000, 12:50 PM:
 
Actually...I doubt mm2 knows what toby's moveset even is. If t-wave works for his "godly" unthought of combo why won't it work for toby? Also dragonite may last a whole 2 seconds before mewtwo blizzards him w/out dragonite getting a blizzard to the face. Bah, this is the last time I post on this thread, the debate ended....a LONG time ago.

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"I gave you all a plate of corn muffins to rate my team..."
-Charmeleon411-

 


Posted by VaporeonsHaze (Member # 252) on 07-07-2000, 01:39 PM:
 
Ok MM2, t-wave, sure it makes mewtwo slower, but most of the new Mewtwo's have rest, that gets rid of it, or they put up a substitute. Then wrap has an attack power of like 5 and it is only about 75% accurate. That means it will miss and Mewtwo gets to attack. The only Mewtwo that you might be able to beat is your little 6 year old sisters. Why am I still posting this $hit.

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"You're a FAKE!" Counterfit: Limp Bizkit

[This message has been edited by VaporeonsHaze (edited 07-07-2000).]
 


Posted by MasterMew2 on 07-08-2000, 10:47 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charmeleon411:
Actually...I doubt mm2 knows what toby's moveset even is. If t-wave works for his "godly" unthought of combo why won't it work for toby? Also dragonite may last a whole 2 seconds before mewtwo blizzards him w/out dragonite getting a blizzard to the face.

1) It does not work for Toby, because Toby is a slow as ****. That, and my Mewtwo knows Thunderbolt.

2) Mewtwo will not use a Blizzard, because Wrap is a hold move, and will prevent Movement.

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MasterMew2
 


Posted by psycho monkey on 07-08-2000, 10:54 AM:
 
can you say "swich"? I didnt think so, and you are a HUMONGUS idiot if you dont think a Paralyzed M2 is slower than bro

I feel sorry for M2 likers, you got this idiot on your side...

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And then it came to me, I can dip my butt in shrimp sauce and slam it on a canvas!

PBS:Sirocco, challenge me sometime, AIM: Psychodic monkey

[This message has been edited by psycho monkey (edited 07-08-2000).]
 


Posted by MasterMew2 on 07-08-2000, 11:09 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by psycho monkey:
I didnt think so, and you are a HUMONGUS idion if you dont think a Paralyzed M2 is slower than bro

I feel sorry for M2 likers, you got this idiot on your side...


I did not say a Payalized Mewtwo, I ment a not Paralyzed Mewtwo. And whats an IDION?

Also, this 'Idion' is now a member of Mensa!

MM2 starts dancing.

------------------
MasterMew2
 


Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 07-11-2000, 04:44 AM:
 
Before this thread, no other discussion in this forum's history had reached 100 posts. Now we're over 200. Should I feel proud or ashamed?

(Incidentally, I haven't read anything here after page 3...)
 


Posted by McPuff (Member # 679) on 07-14-2000, 08:37 PM:
 
holy crap...this post took me a half-hour just to look at and read a post or two. Not that I'm criticizing anyone. just keep posting and when (if ever) it finally ends, I'll do what someone said to do a long time ago. I'll print all of it out pop a cover on it and sell it as a book.

------------------
you've heard the last of us...
 


Posted by MasterMew2 on 07-19-2000, 12:07 PM:
 
Everything has a purpose, no matter what it is...
Nintendo put Mewtwo in the game for a purpose.
What is that purpose?

As a reward for beating the game.
As a strong Pokemon to use.
As something to wrap a strategy for.

------------------
MasterMew2
 


Posted by MasterMew2 on 07-29-2000, 08:13 PM:
 
M24EVER!

Look, I'm never going to give up, so I'll just say this:

(Most Canadians will remember this)

No, I'm not Cheap, or a Newbie.
I don't use second rate Pokemon.
I believe in fairness, and leaving things the way they are.
I have never used a Toby, but I'm sure he's a nice Pokemon.
I call it it chosing wisly.
And that Mewywo is a proud and Noble Pokemon
AND its Pronoced Mewtwo, Not MUTU.
I'm MasterMew2, and I am A Mewtwo User!!

------------------
MasterMew2
 


Posted by DizzyBum (Member # 435) on 07-30-2000, 11:21 AM:
 
You also like using teams of 6 Mewtwos in the PBS, which I would hardly call "fair".

------------------
AIM: DizzyBum77

Dumb newbie quote:
"Put Mega Drain over Razor Leaf."
 


Posted by Rolken (Member # 7) on 07-30-2000, 01:24 PM:
 
Well, all I have to say is that Mr K hit the nail on the head with his comment about M2 taking out all variety. And I quote:

"If you think variety is 'sad', then you can kiss my shiny metal ass."

hehe

------------------
"It will make you laugh, cry, want to kill Fanha, laugh again, cry some more, want to kill TeeJay, etc."
-StarCaliber, on Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited
 


Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 07-30-2000, 04:25 PM:
 
Well, it's actually "bite" the shiny metal ass, but same thing.

------------------
"I could use pants."
-Slowking
 


Posted by Dead Guy46 (Member # 735) on 07-31-2000, 07:43 PM:
 
MM2 is a small, weak nerder outcast.

It's very easy to hurt him. Now for some Dirt:
-He cant beat ANYTHING without Cheating.
-Despite his nerdishness, I get better grades
-Any game he can't cheat on, he doe's not play.

Also, one time when we where Playing Dragon Warrior Monsters together, he popped this out:
MM2:"If you think Mewtwo is Cheap, why do you use Dark Dreim, when it's DWM's version of Mewtwo?"
DG64:"Do you know what I had to go through to Get the Perfect Dark Dreim?"
It stoped there, but you have to go through ALOT to get him, as in, Breeding everyone in the Boss Family (15 monsters) and some others (Like Divington, Watabou, Servent...)

Ouch!

------------------
Dead Guy46
Dead Men do tell Tails.
 


Posted by Cesar (Member # 529) on 08-01-2000, 07:39 PM:
 
This thread alone has 257 (including mine) posts! But it only makes up 4.7% (257/5500x100=4.6727273) of the total posts in this forum! Also since their is only 999 posts in the two pages of this forum, this topic has 25.7% of those 999 posts! Great J D you guys

Maybe we should deticate a forum to Mewtwo, it'll be callled "Mewtwo's shit-o-rama"
------------------
"Today Chicago, tomorrow Saturday"-Kelly Bundy
cesar@infinity.net

[This message has been edited by Cesar (edited 08-01-2000).]
 


Posted by Dragonite21 (Member # 475) on 08-16-2000, 05:51 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charmeleon411:
Actually...I doubt mm2 knows what toby's moveset even is. If t-wave works for his "godly" unthought of combo why won't it work for toby? Also dragonite may last a whole 2 seconds before mewtwo blizzards him w/out dragonite getting a blizzard to the face. Bah, this is the last time I post on this thread, the debate ended....a LONG time ago.

Actually, I have been using my double-edge/blizzard/wrap/thunder wave dragonite for ages now. The current number of mewtwos splatted is a lot. I think toby is more risky than dragonite, a critical hit with thunderbolt and it's all over.


 


Posted by dj_wolf (Member # 750) on 11-24-2000, 12:05 AM:
 
it is back!
 
Posted by SDShamshel (Member # 791) on 11-24-2000, 12:37 AM:
 
But being this is G/S time, it's safe to say...

Mewtwo is not cheap.

Mewtwo may be a highest-special attack, virtually unpredictable due to his TM compatiblity, still good in all categories bastard of a Psychic, but definitely not cheap.

ANYONE who says a Pokemon is cheap in Metallics deserves to be shot, and ran over repeatedly.

------------------
"I think I'll blow this scene, get everyone and their stuff together. Okay, 3, 2, 1, let's jam."

AIM: Nobie20
ICQ: 71976989

[This message has been edited by SDShamshel (edited 11-24-2000).]
 


Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 11-24-2000, 06:31 AM:
 
Unown is cheap.

------------------
"I like to do politics with people from the East. Joe Clark and Stockwell Day are from Alberta. They are a different type. I'm joking. I'm serious. Uh..."
-- Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien
 


Posted by FlamingMonkey645 (Member # 1117) on 11-24-2000, 10:09 AM:
 
*wonders why dj brought this back*

Hopefully now that Fanny's gone this ember won't torch anything more.

------------------
"Think of a flaming monkey."
FlamingMonkey645, ex-GamrGuy, unrelated to psycho monkey.

"I invented pants."
 


Posted by Artie Cuno (Member # 1205) on 11-24-2000, 10:37 AM:
 
Hopefully. But, SOME PEOPLE would do to listen to Karen in the G/S Elite Four. She says, "Strong Pokemon. Weak Pokemon. Only selfish trainers think like that. The best trainers win with their favorites." I happen to like Mewtwo, I think it's beautiful, same with Mew and Articuno. First time I saw them, I fell in love. OK? I use my faves, you use yours. Don't like Mewtwo, tell yer friends so they don't use it. Or, use it if you like it. 'Tis up to you, but don't act like an asshole to those who DO like it, just POLITELY ask them not to use it.

------------------
^_~ GO ARTIE! ~_^
 


Posted by Dragonite21 (Member # 475) on 11-24-2000, 12:08 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Artie Cuno:
"Strong Pokemon. Weak Pokemon. Only selfish trainers think like that. The best trainers win with their favorites."

EXACTLY

------------------
-Dragonite21

O_O
 


Posted by Gloomboy (Member # 462) on 11-24-2000, 12:27 PM:
 
Uhm,can I speak?

Well,I've finally gotten tired of Mewtwo, basically because he's no longer anything
compared to Espeon(my fave psychic,BTW),
but I want to point out that I'll use him
in Stadium(to get Surfing Pikachus) and
GB(to train weaker Pokemon through the E4)
only. I was worried that you people...

(Suddenly goes into one of his stupid modes)

LET'S GO BACK IN TIME TO WHEN POKEMON WAS
CREATED AND FORCE SATOSHI-SAMA TO NOT WRITE
MEWTWO! GET RID OF HIM IN THE GAME AND THE MOVIES! THEN THERE'LL NEVER BE A CHEAP-ASS!

Brrr...

Sorry about that,my dad says I say stupid things like that.

Now people are arguing about Lugia/Ho-Oh being cheap,especially in Pokemasters.

------------------
* GLOOMBOY: The Vileplume Trainer *

AMY: "You gave up being study buddies for THIS?"
Sailor Moon S: "Dangerous Driving"
 


Posted by FlamingMonkey645 (Member # 1117) on 11-24-2000, 01:30 PM:
 
quote:
Strong Pokemon. Weak Pokemon. Only selfish trainers think like that. The best trainers win with their favorites.

Once again, exactly.

The game is more interesting this way, and losing isn't as hard to take.

------------------
"Think of a flaming monkey."
FlamingMonkey645, ex-GamrGuy, unrelated to psycho monkey.

"I invented pants."
 


Posted by Power Soul Rebirth (Member # 365) on 11-24-2000, 02:54 PM:
 
Oh heck. Who brought this back? ¬_¬;;

I think this debate is null now that G/S is out. Mewtwo now has no way of powering up his SA, which is what made him so unbeatable in the first place.

I think people should take Karen's advice.

------------------
Even at his most powerless, man's exsistance is never without meaning.
 


Posted by Psybro (Member # 290) on 11-24-2000, 04:21 PM:
 
I thought this shit got nuked.
Ugh.

------------------
"Psybro is cool. Don't fuck with him."-The Day Fish Went Mad
Not related to the G/S Lord Psybro.
 


Posted by dj_wolf (Member # 750) on 11-24-2000, 09:25 PM:
 
i am sorry for bringing this back we needed somthing to talk about i was thinking about over this summer i was just looking through this old crap and i desided to bring it back
to tell you the truth i like mew and mewtwo but not for the game but for fan fics and movies they have a pretty good storyline revloving about them same thing as the other "ledgendarys" does that explain it ???

[This message has been edited by dj_wolf (edited 11-24-2000).]
 


Posted by Footitch (Member # 663) on 11-24-2000, 10:59 PM:
 
hmm... a few things.

1) dj_wolf, have you heard of punctuation? You sound like an 11-year-old.

2) Why did Mr. K nuke all the mlmiddleton and Fanha topics on the board? It took a lot of good stuff out of this thread (even if Fanha was an asshole, he was half the debate, and the newcomers will have no idea what this thing is about).

3) Gee, Sneakerton really made himself look like an asshole. I also notice a lot of people are getting respect in this thread from people who no longer respect them. I wonder why these things change...

4) That turkey was so good... I LOVE THAT GIRL!

------------------
-ƒøø†|†¢H
"That depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is." - Bill Clinton
"Do you want to be ass-raped with a granite dildo or a sandpaper condom?" - The Great Dreamer
If you are already insane, then there is nothing to worry about.
 


Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 11-25-2000, 03:43 AM:
 
Footitch: Why did Mr. K nuke all the mlmiddleton and Fanha topics on the board?

Fan-who?
 


Posted by dj_wolf (Member # 750) on 11-25-2000, 02:00 PM:
 
sorry about that.I was a little tired at the time.
Okay?

 
Posted by Footitch (Member # 663) on 11-25-2000, 06:43 PM:
 
My SINCEREST apologies Mr. K.
 
Posted by Biffster (Member # 269) on 11-26-2000, 03:35 AM:
 
10K = Funnest person ever to fight in pokemon

Seriously, Our battles were hella tight.

*Highlights
-Kingler crab hammers Muk's ass
-Fearow mirrors thunderwave
-Porygon ownz T-wave, Recover, Conversion, Double Edge
-Kangaskhan proves its self
-Mr. Mime survives a rest

Good timez.

U1S1E1M1E1W1T1W1O1I1F1Y1O1U1A1R1E1A1C1U1N1T1

------------------
"Auto-correct is a tool of the weak."
-Mr. K
 


Posted by Psybro (Member # 290) on 11-26-2000, 04:05 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Biffster:
U1S1E1M1E1W1T1W1O1I1F1Y1O1U1A1R1E1A1C1U1N1T1

O1R1I1F1Y1O1U1W1A1N1T1T1O1B1E1L1I1K1E1F1A1N1N1Y1

------------------
"Psybro is cool. Don't fuck with him."-The Day Fish Went Mad
Not related to the G/S Lord Psybro.
 


Posted by Footitch (Member # 663) on 11-26-2000, 05:02 PM:
 
O1R1I1F1Y1O1U1P1L1A1Y1 T1O1W1I1N1A1N1D1D1O1N1T1 C1A1R1E1W1H1A1T1P1E1O1P1LE1 T1H1I1N1K1A1B1O1U1T1 Y1O1U1(1L1I1K1E1M1E1)1

------------------
-ƒøø†|†¢H
"That depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is." - Bill Clinton
"Do you want to be ass-raped with a granite dildo or a sandpaper condom?" - The Great Dreamer
If you are already insane, then there is nothing to worry about.

[This message has been edited by White Cat (edited 11-27-2000).]
 


Posted by Conflagra (Member # 979) on 11-27-2000, 01:06 AM:
 
Caps Lock and Number Lock, a very annoying combination.

------------------

 


Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 11-27-2000, 05:07 AM:
 
I am getting vewy, vewy angwy at all these format-destroying posts...

------------------
"I like to do politics with people from the East. Joe Clark and Stockwell Day are from Alberta. They are a different type. I'm joking. I'm serious. Uh..."
-- Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien
 


Posted by Psybro (Member # 290) on 11-27-2000, 01:25 PM:
 
Well, this topic deserves it.
 
Posted by starCaliber (Member # 268) on 12-03-2000, 03:52 AM:
 
Good old cheapness thread.

You'll never die.

Note to Mr. K: You are damn cool.

------------------
Jessie: Prepare for trouble, and a dance!
James: I'm wearing tights instead of pants!
 


Posted by NickWhiz1 (Member # 30) on 05-26-2001, 02:55 PM:
 
*makes a fatal error*

*runs*

------------------
"Aww, does the poor widdle Death Stawmie need mommie to kiss away its boo-boo?" - White Cat
 


Posted by Jigglypuff (Member # 144) on 05-26-2001, 03:29 PM:
 
I have a problem with that whole Karen thing...

I have never liked a weak pokémon, except Gyarados, and at that point I thought he was strong (I was a newbie), and therefore, will always rate pokémon on there strength, I slightly favor the water-type, but even so, I favor pokémon to strongly if they have a lot of power, perhaps you play different from me, because you ahve all been in major big tournaments, but since they refuse to come to Canada, I never get an oppurtunity to play in a tournament. My favoratism towards the water type, perhaps puts a small dent in my team, (I use 3 waters).

------------------
Alakazam!!! It's the Shop Wizard
I'm your friendly guide to on-line comparison shopping! Type in what you want to buy and I will search through all the shops in the market to find you the best prices! (I search a different section of the market each time to get more results!)
 


Posted by Atma (Member # 689) on 05-26-2001, 06:18 PM:
 
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER is at 100% health.
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO is at 91% health.
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO used PSYCHIC!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER used BELLY DRUM!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER cut its HP and maximized ATTACK!
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO recovered with LEFTOVERS.
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER's REFLECT faded!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER is at 31% health.
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO is at 97% health.
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO used PSYCHIC!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER used REST!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER went to sleep!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER regained health!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER recovered using a MINT BERRY!
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO recovered with LEFTOVERS.
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER's LIGHT SCREEN fell!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER is at 100% health.
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO is at 100% health.
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO used PSYCHIC!
AtmaLCup's CHARMANDER used RETURN!
FanhaLCup's MEWTWO fainted!


...yes, I know raw battle logs are frowned upon, but...

------------------
"My name is Atma...
I am pure energy... and as ancient as the cosmos.
Forgotten in the river of time...
I've had an eternity to ponder the meaning of things...
And now I have an answer..."
 


Posted by DarkLickitung (Member # 1672) on 05-27-2001, 01:45 AM:
 
I actually read this entire thread.

------------------
<GDTopaz> StarCaliber actually exists?
<Darksight> what's starcaliber
<GDTopaz> I thought he was a myth!
 


Posted by SDShamshel (Member # 791) on 05-27-2001, 12:44 PM:
 
Why? WHY? WHY is this BACK?!

------------------
"It looks like this is my lucky day. I'll take 'The Rapists' for 200."
"That's 'Therapists,' not 'The Rapists.'"
-(Saturday Night Live Celebrity Jeopardy Skit)

AIM: Nobie20
ICQ: 71976989
 


Posted by Jman (Member # 618) on 05-27-2001, 06:56 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by SDShamshel:
Why? WHY? WHY is this BACK?!


Because, you are the weakest link!

Goodbye.

------------------
"Special K 0wnz j00."
http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/home1.html
 


Posted by Power Soul Rebirth (Member # 365) on 05-28-2001, 02:07 AM:
 
Let it die already.
 
Posted by OrientalNoodle (Member # 616) on 05-28-2001, 08:35 AM:
 
Why is it here? http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/forum/tuff/Forum8/HTML/001638.html

Props to Mr. K.

This made some interesting reading. Some good sig material also: "I wonder if you and the other Mewtwo-lovers will stick by him so loyally when G/S comes. Dark is gonna totally kick ass =)" -Acey

MEWTWO used SUBMISSION!
Enemy HOUNDOOM / TYRANITAR / JUSTABOUTANYDARK fainted! :P

------------------
This is a sig. Do not think as a subliminal message, saying "Give all your money to OrientalNoodle".
 


Posted by Jigglypuff (Member # 144) on 05-28-2001, 08:36 PM:
 
Okay, I think that there has been enough evidence put forth, to prove that Mewtwo is cheap.

------------------
Alakazam!!! It's the Shop Wizard
I'm your friendly guide to on-line comparison shopping! Type in what you want to buy and I will search through all the shops in the market to find you the best prices! (I search a different section of the market each time to get more results!)
 


Posted by Mick_Hale (Member # 419) on 05-30-2001, 09:13 AM:
 
Cesar counted 257 posts before. Now it is at 191. Just goes to show how many posts Fanha had.
 
Posted by cfalcon (Member # 19) on 05-30-2001, 09:21 AM:
 
It's a little like 4 pages of people vehemently agreeing with each other... not quite, but close.
 
Posted by DarkLickitung (Member # 1672) on 05-30-2001, 07:10 PM:
 
I beat a 4-Mewtwo team on PokéSta1 today with a Slowbro, Exeggutor, Electrode, Persian, Alakazam, and Kamikaze Snorlax. T'was fun.

------------------
<[NathaN]> My anus hurts.
<DarkLickitung> Nathan's mom's been hard at work =P
 


Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 06-01-2001, 08:24 AM:
 
Well, I think mlmiddleton and possibly Darryn had some posts here, too.

------------------
"In the year 2000... Cigarette companies deny that they are targeting children with their new mascot, Smokémon."
-- Conan O'Brien
 


Posted by OrientalNoodle (Member # 616) on 06-01-2001, 10:13 AM:
 
BTW. who won the tourney and was M2 banned?

------------------
This is a sig. Do not think as a subliminal message, saying "Give all your money to OrientalNoodle".
 


Posted by SDShamshel (Member # 791) on 08-10-2001, 10:32 AM:
 
Quiet.

There will be no "Round 4."

Why must people keep on reviving this damn topic? It's been done to death.

Refuting your arguments is not necessary, as previous posts in this topic and other topics do that nicely.
 


Posted by DizzyBum (Member # 435) on 08-10-2001, 01:16 PM:
 
I don't think Mewtwo is cheap, because everyone is so deathly afraid of using him and people yelling and screaming and complaining at you for using Mewtwo. So you never see him in teams. So the point is moot.


 


Posted by MK (Member # 1445) on 08-10-2001, 03:09 PM:
 
I've never given my input in this topic before, so I'll say this once.

Newbies say Mewtwo is cheap. Is he cheap? Well, if there ARE any cheap Pokémon it's these 3: Lugia, Mewtwo, Houou (and that's if you say any Pokémon are cheap)

Anyway, a Pokémon is a Pokémon. If you are beaten by a Mewtwo, it's your OWN damn fault for not having a good enough team to beat it or using a Mewtwo yourself.

I know this topic was back in the day of RBY, but even THEN you could stop Mewtwo. My Chansey was really good at that

*MK hugs Chansey*

I went to an offical Nintendo tournament and Chansey might have been my 2nd Poke (I'm not sure anymore, long time ago Tourney for RBY) anyway, my Chansey was able to defeat an Alakazam, a Charizard, and possible even my opponent's Mewtwo (I wish I remembered exactly how to battle went it was TOO long ago, but I might have not won if it wasn't for Chansey's high Special)

So, thanks to G/S/C Mewtwo is less Powerful and more beatable, but, even in RBY, it was possible!

-MK
[EDIT: Typo]

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: MK ]
 


Posted by The Great Dreamer (Member # 117) on 08-10-2001, 06:10 PM:
 
You have resurrected the Forbidden Topic, you know not what have you done!
 
Posted by SDShamshel (Member # 791) on 08-10-2001, 06:37 PM:
 
The metagame should not evolve to focus so much on just one Pokemon. Even in G/S, not everyone is clamoring to put Fire Blast on their Snorlax or flamethrower on whatever JUST to deal with Skarmory. It's to deal with Scizor and Forretress as well. You use a Chansey JUST to handle Mewtwo. And I bet it has a specific moveset to handle the job.

That was the problem with Mewtwo in RBY. He had such a distinct advantage over all other Pokemon. Mewtwo, was, without a doubt, the best Pokemon in the game. Argue all you want, the stats, TM compatibility, learned moves, and type don't lie. Physical attacks on Mewtwo are rare, but they DO exist. And you know what? Unlike other high specialists, Mewtwo has a high attack rating to back up his absurd Special. You can say you'll always know what Mewtwo will pack, but you're looking at the online community only. Even then, some good players don't pack Recover on Mewtwo. Mewtwo, after all, can Selfdestruct.

So if a person uses Mewtwo, you'll just use superior strategy and defeat that Mewtwo, right? When your Pokemon are outclassed, you have to rely on outsmarting the opponent, and a little luck. Well, what if your opponent was your equal in terms of strategy, or better? Then what happens? A person who can fully exploit Mewtwo is not as easily stopped as the newbies you fight.
 


Posted by Turbo X (Member # 1808) on 08-11-2001, 12:54 AM:
 
quote:
Mewtwo, WAS, without a doubt, the best pokemon in the game

With G/S out now for the past year or however long it's been out, this whole topic is moot now.

WHY MUST PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING THIS TOPIC BACK FROM THE DEAD??? Just bury the damn thing and never mention it again. I think Nintendo/Game Freak (whichever thought up of giving Mewtwo all the advantages) have learned their lesson by now.

On a side note, how many times has this topic been resurrected after being dead for over a month??
 


Posted by Jman (Member # 618) on 08-11-2001, 11:45 AM:
 
dear lord...
 
Posted by Uncle (Member # 2072) on 08-11-2001, 01:35 PM:
 
i now see why the rival in stadium had 1 mewtwo to six pokemon

thankfully in gs, he isnt as powerful, but still is pretty damn hard
 


Posted by MK (Member # 1445) on 08-11-2001, 07:51 PM:
 
One thing that still makes Mewtwo good on G/S is the fact it can learn nice elemental attacks of your choice and a nice special attack to back em up and deal damage.

In the end, Mewtwo strong, beatable yes, considered cheap by some newbies.

-MK
 


Posted by Turbo X (Member # 1808) on 08-11-2001, 09:08 PM:
 
And another thing about the dethroned beast:
How many teams (tournament teams) have you actually seen M2 on?
My guess, less than 1 out of 10.
People just got tired of using it constantly to win (even if they didn't need it to win). Maybe people finally got rid of their "security blanket"!!
 
Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 08-13-2001, 07:06 AM:
 
Mewtwo isn’t cheap, even in RBY. As far as I know (and I know a lot,) “cheap” in this context means “I’m never going to be able to beat that team because I’m such a n00b, but I expect you to stop using it even though I’m begging and I’m not giving you anything in exchange for your changing the team”.

That's the worst definition of "cheap" I've ever heard.

and in RBY I’d have to say Chansey can reliably beat Mewtwo.

Chansey cannot beat Mewtwo; it can only stall it with a PP-wasting war. The same thing goes for Slowbro.

The metagame should not evolve to focus so much on just one Pokemon.

Exactly. When Mewtwo is used, that's exactly what happens, and it ruins the fun of the game.

Basically, Mewtwo's Cheapness boils down to two things:

1) Mewtwo can counter any of his counters. This cannot be said of any other Pokemon.
2) If a expert trainer with a Mewtwo fights an expert trainer without a Mewtwo, the Mewtwo user will almost assuredly win. This cannot be said of any other Pokemon.
 


Posted by SDShamshel (Member # 791) on 08-13-2001, 10:43 PM:
 
1) When White Cat said "counter ANY of its counters," he meant "ALL OF ITS COUNTERS." And we're talking about RBY, not G/S. G/S is a whole different world.

2) Shut up.
 


Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 08-17-2001, 08:36 AM:
 
1. Yes, it can. Take Snorlax; it can get something like Psychic for Machamp, and Fire Blast/Flamethrower to deal with the GSC Skarmory.

It would take four Psychics from Snorlax to down Machamp. Lax dies in two Cross Chops. And anyway, I'm talking about RBY.

2. Two words: Sporing 'Trode.

That's cheating, and therefore doesn't count.

Your new "consistency" grading scale is worthless. Who cares what the standard deviation of their stats is? You even admitted that Chansey ranks at the bottom, and I don't know of anyone who would claim it's a crappy Pokemon.

If you start playing “Mewtwo Limits Clause”, where M2 can’t be above L90 and can’t have Amnesia, a L90 Mewtwo ... would score 1602, so that it’s in 9th place. Not nearly as unbalancing now that it’s behind Golduck!

When you have to resort to cutting down Mewtwo's level and restricting his moves, you're just proving my point.

That, and I’ll take credit for allowing people on all the boards to start using Mewtwo in RBY again.

Now I remember why I rated you the way I did...
 


Posted by DrFuko (Member # 2176) on 12-13-2001, 03:46 PM:
 
I don´t find Mewtwo the living threat anymore, all in thanks to the following things nintendo did to make him weak

-separation of S.Att and S.Def
-Dark types
-Steel types
-Dark moves
-Megahorn.... the move that CAN ohko a mewtwo
-two words: shadow ball
-baton passing
-Amnesia´s only taking care of s.def
-m2´s low S.Def (but not too low)
-curse
-A stronger chancey (blissey) that can curse (bad blissey, bad blissey! that´s not something YOU should be doing!)
-New high S.Def pokemon: shuckle, houou, lugia
-MeanLook
-Perish Song
-Tyranitar: The cooler, bigger, better dragonite, (despite submission)!
-Fixed CH ratio


Is there anything you´d else that you´d like to thank the Nintendo guys for adding from its RBY days?
 


Posted by Jolt135 (Member # 1974) on 12-13-2001, 05:22 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by DrFuko:
I don´t find Mewtwo the living threat anymore, all in thanks to the following things nintendo did to make him weak

-separation of S.Att and S.Def
Agreed.
-Dark types
-Steel types

Only two Darks are ever seriously used for attacking purposes, which is why I see a lot of Mewtwos with Submission (although if the enemy has a Quick Claw, Mewtwo still loses more than half the time.) Steels--bah, their Special D sucks. Flamethrower speeds it up even more.
-Dark moves
Unless they're STAB, no Dark move will be able to outrace Recover (barring SD Downs.) Who wins THAT damage race?
-Megahorn.... the move that CAN ohko a mewtwo
You would NEED a Silverpowder to do that, and even then it's still only a 5-in-39 shot (plus the 85% acuracy). Did I mention Heracross is Fighting?
-two words: shadow ball
Even from Flareon, Shadow Ball tops out at 176. Recover, anyone?
-baton passing
BP what? You ARE facing halfway-intelligent opponents, aren't you?
-Amnesia´s only taking care of s.def
Protects from Darks, doesn't it?
-m2´s low S.Def (but not too low)
278...that's still around 70th percentile...how is that "low?" Amnesia still boosts it.
-curse
Curse WHAT? Even Snorlax takes enough damage from Psychic that it won't be able to put in enough Curses to kill. Remember that Mewtwo can use Barrier and get to maximum TWICE as fast.
-A stronger chancey (blissey) that can curse (bad blissey, bad blissey! that´s not something YOU should be doing!)
Chansey already HAD Mewtwo beat. Once something is complete, there is no need to overdo it. Point?
-New high S.Def pokemon: shuckle, houou, lugia
Just because new Pokemon are introduced that can do one specific job better, I don't see how that makes Mewtwo's performance any worse.
-MeanLook
Congratulations! You just locked yourself in against the best special attacker in the game! What are you going to do now? (Hint: It has nothing to do with Disney World.)
-Perish Song
No good without Mean Look, and it would still be tough to find a way to survive STAB 406-Special-A Psychics. BTW, someone could always switch to a pseudohazer on the first turn, BEFORE you could Look them.
-Tyranitar: The cooler, bigger, better dragonite, (despite submission)!
Didn't you already mention that?
-Fixed CH ratio
WOO-HOO! Now I don't have to worry about getting a CH after full Amnesia!

Is there anything you´d else that you´d like to thank the Nintendo guys for adding from its RBY days?
Safeguard running off 358 Speed?



 
Posted by DrFuko (Member # 2176) on 12-13-2001, 05:38 PM:
 
Um, Jolt.... have you read the rest of this long ass post?

::god, it took me forever::

There are so many brand new ways to attack this guy that he has not become the threat that he used to be in his RBY days. You couldn´t screech and confuse because of a lack of mean look, you couldnt baton pass force to potential m2 killers, chancey had less HP AND less special D....

and a tyranitar set in a recover race against mewtwo that is not powered or powering up is a lost cause.... CH is 12.5% and the chance of lowering SDef makes it something you can count on after a while.


Back in RBY, you could only really attack it with physical attacks unless you had amnesia, by which time mewtwo killed you with an insane special.

Who could argue against all this? Who would want to??? I´m content. I don´t call legendary teams cheap simply because they are not the immediate threat they used to be.
 


Posted by White Cat (Member # 42) on 02-06-2003, 12:02 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by White Cat:
1. Yes, it can. Take Snorlax; it can get something like Psychic for Machamp, and Fire Blast/Flamethrower to deal with the GSC Skarmory.

It would take four Psychics from Snorlax to down Machamp. Lax dies in two Cross Chops. And anyway, I'm talking about RBY.

Now I remember why I rated you the way I did...

Who am I arguing with here?
 
Posted by LanderZRPG (Member # 1615) on 02-06-2003, 09:44 AM:
 
The Internation Noobie Community, Inc.

INC Inc.
 
Posted by Mentar the Malady Monkey (Member # 1182) on 04-26-2011, 02:32 PM:
 
I couldn't resist.
 
Posted by ~Steel Arcanine~ (Member # 1642) on 06-16-2011, 11:56 AM:
 
Win.
 


Karpe Diem