This is topic One Hit KO's in forum Research Lab at The Azure Heights Forum.


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Posted by Moltres23 (Member # 26) on 03-02-2000, 12:07 AM:
 
Are they really on a Fixed accuracy or is this merely Illusion?

What if the speed was working against you instead of for you? That would mean that using Agility to any extreme would be hurting more than helping. Perhaps 30% is the minimum accuracy it can obtain.

I have very good reason to beleive that the slower you are, or rather the closer to your opponents while still being over.

Why do I have reason to beleive this? First off, you can't hit at all if you are slower. This is because if you are too slow, and the accuracy is really something comperable to an inverse of speed, Horn Drill would hit almost all the time. That would be distintly unbalanced.

Other reasons I have to beleive that Instant Kills work better under slower conditions, or more equal conditions rather, is in the case of Ditto vs Rhydon. When Ditto Transforms, it gains the exact active stats of the opponent (bar HP). This would mean Speed. When using Horn Drill as Ditto on a Rhydon which I have just Transformed into, if it doesn't hit the first time, it almost infallably hits the seconed time. This suggests a fifty fifty success rate at or around equal speed and a degradation to 30% at anything extremely higher.

There's my hypothosis, debate it at will. IF it is true, it doesn't entirely remove Agility/Horn Drill as a viable combination, you can still be guaranteed to at least attack first so as to be able to actually HIT anyone, if not guaranteeing a hit.

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Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 03-02-2000, 12:26 AM:
 
For reference: http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/attacks/comp/ko.htm

If you have some bulk of data that backs up your claim, I'm sure Toby'd be interested, but a couple anecdotes really doesn't prove anything.

Based on anecdotal evidence, I could tell you that Wigglytuff will defeat Mewtwo 5 out of 6 times and Wiggly will only lose if he gets frozen, because that's what happened to me at my first tourney, but that's hardly enough data to make any universal claims...

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Posted by Wintermute (Member # 5) on 03-02-2000, 12:30 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moltres23:
When using Horn Drill as Ditto on a Rhydon which I have just Transformed into, if it doesn't hit the first time, it almost infallably hits the seconed time. This suggests a fifty fifty success rate at or around equal speed and a degradation to 30% at anything extremely higher.

I'm afraid it doesn't really suggest much of anything unless you can provide some actual numbers on the amount of data you collected. Exactly how often is "almost infallably"? I would think at least 100 trials would be appropriate here.

quote:

There's my hypothosis, debate it at will.

Debate is almost certainly not the most productive way to approach this issue. All the arguments anyone could muster would be rendered moot by a good set of data.

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Posted by MewtwoSama (Member # 12) on 03-02-2000, 08:08 AM:
 
We might have to throw all this out the window:

I saw Rhydon hit Fissure on Alakazam in Stadium...

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Posted by Moltres23 (Member # 26) on 03-02-2000, 06:24 PM:
 
First off, I usually battle with Logic before going in to test in order to form a Hypothesis.

My reasons for thinking One Hit KO's are more effective the closer you are to your opponent's speed...

1. Personal Experience, which has very little weight unless I get some numbers.

2. 'Enemy "So and So" is Unnaffected'. Why would the programmers prevent the Slow Guys from using Instant Kills for no reason? In the case of Speed increasing accuracy (proven wrong) it makes no sence. In the case of Standard Accuracy, it's debatable. In the case of Speed Lowering/Leveling it makes some sence. Being SLOWER than the opponent would raise the accuracy of the move above fifty percent (according to my theories) that makes it totally unfair. The game does have balance to it afterall.

3. No one has tested it yet (to the best of my knowlege if anyone has numbers on Slower=Better, please inform me). Increasing speed seems the logical way to go, so it's the first to be tested. It's logic that doesn't take every aspect of the situation into account (see above).

To test this out completely, I propose to clone a Krabby w/ Guillotine, then give one of them a Carbos. Another Test will be carried out with Ditto and various other Instant Killers.

If you see flaws in my logic, please point them out to me so I may debate them or test them if not simply aknowledge them and continue on with my life.

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Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 03-03-2000, 03:47 PM:
 
I think that you are wrong, but that is just my feeling I don't have enough testing to definitely disprove your theories.

I think One-Hit KO only works if you have higher speed to weaken the move. The programmers probably felt it is too powerful without this restiction. And for good reason, because without this, Mewtwo would suck, ANY pokemon who can learn One-Hit KO can kick his ass 50% of the time. 50% is roughly the chance that you will survive 2 One-Hit KO attempts, and that is exactly what Mewtwo needs to do to kill most other Pokemon.

Although, Flinch rates are affected by Speed I think, in Blue/Red. I think only moves that "have a greater chance to Flinch" have this property, move with just "random Flinch" work 10% of the time regardless of Speed.

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Posted by Mu (Member # 28) on 03-05-2000, 05:59 AM:
 
But why have only selective speed settings?
For a fact I know Headbutt has a "greater chance of flinching" and it's 30%.
Blizzard has a "greater chance of freezing" - Does that mean a jynx will freeze more than a Nidoking purely for speed?

I think you're argument makes less sense than One Hit KOs being best on even speeds - For one logically it doesn't make any sense.
If I was a Rhydon chasing someone with a Horn Drill - Bang, I'd kill them if I was faster, if I was slower, I never would.
If I was the same speed I'd never even catch up to them.

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Posted by Square (Member # 93) on 03-08-2000, 12:52 PM:
 
picture this- dragonite w/ agility, thunderwave, horn drill, and hyper beam/ body slam/skull bash ect. First use thunderwave, than agility once or twice, then drill away! you will be MUCH faster than your opponent, and almost garanteed 1-hit KO!! this dragonite would be very impractical and risky though.

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Posted by Square (Member # 93) on 03-08-2000, 12:58 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by MewtwoSama:
We might have to throw all this out the window:

I saw Rhydon hit Fissure on Alakazam in Stadium...


Yes I have seen a pinsir hit a mew w/ guillotine, and if I recall, a mew is much faster than a pinsir.

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Posted by Wintermute (Member # 5) on 03-08-2000, 04:12 PM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Square:
Yes I have seen a pinsir hit a mew w/ guillotine, and if I recall, a mew is much faster than a pinsir.

Square, was this in Stadium? If RBY, was it in a game or link battle?

Thanks.


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Posted by Square (Member # 93) on 03-08-2000, 05:01 PM:
 
It was a link battle between me and my brother, he has red version, I was using yellow version.

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Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 03-08-2000, 07:23 PM:
 
Mu, according to the most accurate movelist, Blizzard does NOT have a greater chance to freeze. Necrosaro's movelist was ripped directly from the game and he is most often right. However all other sites do say Blizzard DOES have a greater chance to freeze and that it is 30% exactly. My own testings disagree and say that Blizzard has a regular chance to freeze, namely 10% exactly.

According to my OWN testings, any move that has a greater chance to work, is somewhere between 30% to 40% accurate depending on your pokemons speed. On a Snorlax, Headbutt probably would be roughly 30% accurate. These sites say that it is always 30% accurate but I believe that is wrong. I do have some data to indicate this, however most of my data are done with like 40 trials only, and I don't always write them down either but I do sometimes.

Necrosaro's ripped ROM movelist only gave him hex codes for what effect each move does. 'Random Freeze' might be code 45 for example, while 'Greater Random Freeze' might be code 46. Necrosaro himself has to interpret what these mean though, and assign the right ideas/effects to each hex code. Sometimes he screws up in this process. Also, any move that says 'Random Attack Down' or affects stats randomly like that as a side-effect, are actually 'Greater Random Attack Down' according to what tests I have done, but Necrosaro didnt know this so he just wrote 'Random Attack Down'. In actuality there is no 'Random Attack Down' only a 'Greater Random Attack Down' I believe.

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Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 03-10-2000, 07:39 PM:
 
Wait, I'm not so sure about all attacks being either 10% (regular) or 30-40% (greater chance, also partially speed dependent). I remember back when I first played Pokemon Blue and didn't know anything, and I was trying to use Bubble to lower my opponent's Speed with my Level 10 Squirtle. It never worked, hahaha, or at least it seemed that way.
I did recently test Bubble and Bubblebeam out with a Mewtwo, and he did lower Speed almost 40% of the time though...

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Posted by Mu (Member # 28) on 03-11-2000, 07:07 AM:
 
Mu, according to the most accurate movelist, Blizzard does NOT have a greater chance to freeze. Necrosaro's movelist was ripped directly from the game and he is most often right. However all other sites do say Blizzard DOES have a greater chance to freeze and that it is 30% exactly. My own testings disagree and say that Blizzard has a regular chance to freeze, namely 10% exactly.

Frankly I have a tendancy to believe AH over Necro as although he did rip it straight from the ROM - AH have tested and trialled this, that and my own experiences show quite plainly that Blizzard is either more than 10% freeze, or everyone I know is incredibly lucky.
But from reports they change this to 10% in Stadium and G/S so it depends where you are coming from, myself I am still in RBY.

According to my OWN testings, any move that has a greater chance to work, is somewhere between 30% to 40% accurate depending on your pokemons speed. On a Snorlax, Headbutt probably would be roughly 30% accurate. These sites say that it is always 30% accurate but I believe that is wrong. I do have some data to indicate this, however most of my data are done with like 40 trials only, and I don't always write them down either but I do sometimes.

As I was told about theories - "Do at least 100 trials with written results and THEN come back and tell us your theories"


Necrosaro's ripped ROM movelist only gave him hex codes for what effect each move does. 'Random Freeze' might be code 45 for example, while 'Greater Random Freeze' might be code 46. Necrosaro himself has to interpret what these mean though, and assign the right ideas/effects to each hex code. Sometimes he screws up in this process. Also, any move that says 'Random Attack Down' or affects stats randomly like that as a side-effect, are actually 'Greater Random Attack Down' according to what tests I have done, but Necrosaro didnt know this so he just wrote 'Random Attack Down'. In actuality there is no 'Random Attack Down' only a 'Greater Random Attack Down' I believe.

That is exactly why I believe AH over him.
By the way - You can't have 'Greater Random Attack Down' without a 'Random Attack Down'.

Anyway, I've used plenty of these moves and I've seen enough of them work that way to give me the impression it's not even a 10% chance - 3% would probably be more accurate from my experiences.

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Posted by cfalcon (Member # 19) on 03-11-2000, 01:36 PM:
 
Actually, if Attack Down was equivalent to 1 Tail Whip, then that statement would mean that anything that lowers your attack sometimes lowers it by two Tail Whips (I think that's the claim, I'm not sure about it).

In the back of the Yellow book, they discuss that Blizzard's chance of freezing was "modified by 10%". Knowing Nintendo, this could mean:

a) Modified 30%->20%
b) Modified 20%->10%
c) Modified 30%->10% (bad translation if true)
d) Nothing at all

Point is, R/B may be seperate then Yellow here. Stadium documents 10, but who knows.

-cfalcon

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Posted by Mr. K (Member # 2) on 03-12-2000, 05:07 AM:
 
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
Point is, R/B may be seperate then Yellow here. Stadium documents 10, but who knows.

Yeah, who knows... We do know that stuff written in both the Yellow and Stadium instructions is incorrect. For example, even the online explanation of Hi Jump Kick is incorrect in Stadium.

By the way, Mu, while your confidence in us is inspiring, in many cases we have actually just used Necro's data. We pretty much only do research when there seems to be some conflict.

So if one of our percentages is 10% off, we might never have noticed.

I don't think we've ever significantly tested most of the percentages and I know Wintermute is working on Critical Hit tests, but hasn't come to any final conclusions yet.

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