This is topic What is the closest thing to the ultimate team? in forum Oddish Memorial Lecture Hall at The Azure Heights Forum.

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Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-12-2004, 04:13 PM:
There is no true ultimate team in Ru/Sa, but what is the closest thing to one, if all legendaries are allowed? This regards 6v6 single battles, no clauses...except for "no same Pokemon" clause...and possibly "no same item" clause. I consider all other clauses somewhat whiny and stupid.

If no legendaries are allowed, the range of competitive teams is immense, with a deep and rich metagame. Even if legendaries are allowed, many types of teams remain competitive, but at least it reduces down and skews the metagame tremendously, enough so that I think 90% of competitive teams would use at least 4 or 5 of commonly used legendary Pokemon.

I think the following 3 Pokemon would be shoe-ins almost anyone would use in the Ru/Sa environment. Keep in mind movesets and EVs are left unspecified so there is still much freedom and diversity with what a player does with his team even if he uses the same Pokemons as other players.

#1 - Latias w/ Soul Dew
#2 - Latios w/ Soul Dew
#3 - Mewtwo (high Speed, and powerful stats)

If item clause is enforced though, only one Lati@s would be a near-staple Pokemon (I will leave it unspecified, both are valid candidates).

Probably I think the following 2 Pokemon are also near-staples, due to them being both legendary and powerful, plus having different Type than most legendaries.

#4 - Kyogre (ultra powerful Ability)
#5 - Groudon (not as much a staple as Kyogre, but I think anyone would fear Groudon with Choice Band, though few use it with him)

I don't think any other Pokemon are really so powerful that they would be used by most players. The #6 Pokemon (and #5, if item clause is enforced) is open to preference. There are plenty of top legendaries left to choose from like Lugia (who could have been considered the #1 strongest Pokemon in G/S) and Ho-Oh, but in the Ru/Sa environment I don't think they are staple. Because in Ru/Sa brute power and speed reigns supreme, and healing is not very important. Type balance of teams is more important than before, and tricky Pokemon (Perish Song, Baton Pass, whatever) are overall weaker than before. Lugia is still great, but running yet another Psychic type may not be recommended. Ho-Oh is a unique type (and he can become super scary from Groudon's Drought, Overheat, and a White Herb) so I'm tempted to use him as my #6 but it's by no means a sure thing anymore.

Most likely it's best for the #6 and possibly #5 Pokemon to not be legendary Pokemon, but just a very good Pokemon, of which there are plenty.

What do you guys think? Are the above 5 Pokemon really near-staple if legendaries were allowed? And what are some of the better candidates for the last 1 or 2 Pokemons?
Posted by Gary Oak (Member # 1028) on 05-13-2004, 11:05 AM:
This one
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-13-2004, 03:52 PM:
That's basically a Ninjask BP team obeying item clause, with Latios and Kyogre as 2 Legendary fillers. Do you honestly think that team can beat a pure power team of 6 Legendaries?

I could be wrong, as I don't have much experience actually battling in Ru/Sa (only have extensive experience in previous games), but I think the team I described could beat your team, even with only 5 Pokemon.

Basically, since 4 of your Pokemon are part of the Ninjask BP squad (your Slaking could stand alone, but since he doesn't have Choice Band I'm not sure he can OHKO any legendary without the BP) you HAVE to sweep my entire team to win. If you don't....chances are your last 2 Legendaries will be overwhelmed by whatever Legendaries I have left after I've defeated your powered up BP Pokemons and Ninjask.

Now, Ninjask can only survive 1 to 2 hits at most from any of my Legendaries, even with SpD/HP EVs and Careful nature. Assuming you survive a hit, you will have to BP immediately and the hopes of your entire team rest on your BPed Pokemon (who comes in taking a hit). If you BP in Slaking I don't think it will be enough to wipe out my entire team, as his Truant will screw him up. As soon as Slaking is killed the rest of your team will fall like flies. BPing Blaziken won't sweep my team as all he has is Sky Uppercut and my team is overloaded with Psychic types as is. Your only hope is to bring in Salamence, and he doesn't even have a STAB move of decent power. There is even a significant possibility either Blaziken or Salamence will be OHKOed the turn they BP in, by some super effective attack.

And I stress again, once you fail your BP gambit, the match is over.

You may be able to do better if Ninjask can OHKO a Pokemon with Swords Danced super effective Silver Wind, before having to BP away, but even this is not guaranteed to be possible.

Feel free to put in a rebuttal or explain why your team could beat a team of 5 well-trained Legendaries.
Posted by LanderZRPG (Member # 1615) on 05-16-2004, 11:47 PM:
With the distribution of stats, if someone finds faster/stronger pokes, who can take a hit, the Legendaries aren't so bad.

Basically, Slaking can wail on most of everything, there, even without powering up. And it can take hits with relative ease, too, although it rarely needs to: Bring it in on switch, kill, switch out.

Kyogre alone slaughters most of the other Legendaries... Calm Mind + Electric + Water moves... beats essentially everything, and kills off most of his weaknesses. Sure, it's not the fastest, but Mewtwo can't dish out enough damage before it Calm Minds a few times, and then it's a PP war, if Mewtwo tries the same.

Lati's? No biggie. Hit with Ice, and they are in a sore position.

I think the team with the most power up moves, with pokes who can take a little abuse, or who can switch out properly, takes it.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-17-2004, 08:20 PM:
Slaking is a good choice for Pokemon #6, though I wouldn't say he is a near-staple like the others. I'm still looking for better more reliable Pokemon than Slaking (Protect will screw him). So far Kingdra (making use of Kyogre's Drizzle and his Swift Swim ability) and Snorlax seem like the most overwhelming choices I can think of but even them I would not say is ultra-dominating in the 6th slot.

Calm Mind Kyogre is not that scary. For one thing, my own team has a Kyogre, and I did not specify it's moveset. It could be the exact same as yours, so claiming your Kyogre will defend against my team will never I may have the exact same Pokemon as you do.

Furthermore, Kyogre knowing Calm Mind + Thunder + Ice Beam + Surf cannot heal, thus Mewtwo can indeed bring him down with constant attacking. Kyogre with Calm Mind + Rest + 2 Attacks may be unable to deal with another Kyogre, or a Groudon, etc.

Also, do you realize that Groudon can kill Kyogre in 1 hit with a Choice Banded Earthquake? (assuming Kyogre does not put any EVs into HP or Def).

Lati@s cannot be easily defeated by non-legendary Pokemon either, not even with Ice Beam. Soul Dew boosts their SpDef by 1.5x times as well, so even Ice Beam will usually require 3 hits or so to finish them...and Lati@s kills most Pokemon in 1 or 2 hits due to 1.5x Special Attack.
Posted by TeLeFonE (Member # 2293) on 05-18-2004, 09:30 PM:
My 6th and also lead would be Smeargle.

Endure, Spore, Endeavor, Seismic Toss @Salac

Without sleep clause that alone could do some heavy damage with Spore alone; add in the cheesy combo and its a good support pokemon for those beasts.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-19-2004, 02:46 PM:
No offense, but I really don't think Smeargle can work against Legendaries in Ru/Sa. As I said earlier, the Ru/Sa environment and game mechanics is more offensive than G/S was due to several factors including Natures and EVs, new offensive legendaries (Groudon and Kyogre), and other reasons.

If you open with Smeargle, and I open with Kyogre, Groudon with Choice Band, or Lati@s with Soul Dew (common openers)...I think your Smeargle will be OHKOed before it can even move. Even if you give it all SpDef and HP EVs and Nature, it won't help. Groudon can even OHKO a Kyogre without Defense EVs, as mentioned what chance does Smeargle have? I'm not so sure about Mewtwo but even he might OHKO Smeargle. That's pretty much my entire base 4-5 Pokemon team.

Don't's also very common for Kyogre and Groudon to use Chesto or Lum they can Rest to full health for free. If you try to Spore them it will be wasted, and they even have 2 chances to kill your Smeargle for free. Salac Berry won't do anything.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-19-2004, 03:31 PM:
Oops sorry. I was wrong, Telefone. I'm an idiot, I didn't realize the first move you gave Smeargle was Endure.

Yeah, that's a great Smeargle. I'll definitely consider it a great candidate for Pokemon #6. I have to think about it some more though. Good opponents can play around that Smeargle by using a non-attacking move on turn 1 (to make you waste Endure)...then attack on turn 2 (to give Endure a 50% chance to fail). But Smeargle in turn can play around that by using Spore on turn 1 unpredictably.

I can think of 3 ways to sort of counter that Smeargle though to some extent. One, Groudon or Kyogre with Lum or Chesto Berries as mentioned above. They can survive Spore once and then kill Smeargle for free that turn. Supposing Smeargle sets himself up successfully with Salac Berry and Endure...I can let him kill the Pokemon currently out, then send in someone with a Chesto Berry. This will kill Smeargle for sure, but a good Smeargle player could counter this by not using Spore, and using Endeavor straight for big damage. That should give enough of a lead to win the match (legendary slugfest).

Two, I think Protect can stop Spore? I'm not sure. If it does, Legendary Pokemon who have randomly been given a Protect (mainly for Slaking, but it might also work for Smeargle) can use it to both waste Endures (and lower accuracy) while simultaneously defending from Spore. So it's somewhat safe, but not completely. And once Smeargle is set up this won't have any affect on him at all (since he goes first he can Spore again if he has to).

Three, another valid candidate (and actually what I consider one of the top three candidates at this point) for Pokemon #6 is Kingdra. He can make use of Kyogre's Drizzle with his Swift Swim. I think this will make him faster than Smeargle even with Salac Berry activated, so if Smeargle gets setup successfully (and assuming I opened with Kyogre to setup Drizzle) I can just send in Kingdra and OHKO Smeargle immediately.

On the other hand, you could counter this by switching in your Groudon after you see my Kingdra, screwing up the rain. Then, if your Groudon has Choice Band he can go first and OHKO my Kingdra. However at least this chases away Smeargle...who is worthless without his Salac Berry.

I agree this Smeargle is a great choice. I'm definitely considering it one of the best candidates but I need to think about it some more. [Smile]
Posted by TeLeFonE (Member # 2293) on 05-19-2004, 08:53 PM:
I also fogot to mention that I really like Deoxys as an anti-uber. Thunder and Solarbeam abuse both Drizzle and Drought when the other team uses it and it goes well with Kyogre/Groudon as a team mate. Personally, I'd use Deoxys over Mewtwo just because it is better suited for the faster pace of RS. Base speed and attacking stats at 150 is beastly.

Looking again, I'd also say having both Lati isn't really needed. I'd put a Choice Band Dodrio or Swellow on the team, actually, but that's just my style. Quick Attack is a nice move for pokemon like Deoxys that have nothing on the defense and both Swellow and Dodrio have solid speed and attack plus a good trait. Early Bird is nice for the lack of Sleep Clause and Guts has its moments.

I'll have to agree that Kingdra is a solid choice. Swift Swim and Surf are nice, but I just don't see it helping out too much when faced with a rival Kyogre. I'd say it doesn't cover enough in comparison to say something like Slaking. Taking back my earlier Smeargle suggestion, I might form the team like this:

Slaking, Latias, Kyogre, Groudon, Deoxys, Dodrio

However, that gives a 3xIce weakness. I'd debate this over further.. but my brain isn't working right now... I'll come back to this and add more later.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-20-2004, 04:20 PM:
I agree that one of the Pokemon should be either Deoxys or Mewtwo, but probably not both together. It also occurred to me that Deoxys might be another way to stop the Smeargle strategy, as it is still faster than Smeargle with the Salac Berry and may OHKO it depending on EVs and attack used.

However, ignoring that (because a clever Smeargle does have a chance to survive) isn't Mewtwo the superior choice? Essentially they are the same Pokemon but Deoxys is faster, while Mewtwo can survive roughly 2x to 4x (depending on EVs) more damage than Deoxys before he dies. I'd say this at least amounts to surviving one extra hit, which more than makes up for the lesser Speed. Also, if you look at the team you suggested and compare it to the same team with Deoxys replaced by Mewtwo, isn't the Mewtwo team superior? After all, as listed, either choice would be the fastest Pokemon, so it doesn't really matter whether it has Base Speed 130 or 150, as long as it is faster than any other Pokemon in both teams. Does this make sense?

I agree Slaking is one of the top choices for that 6th spot. I've also considered Snorlax, who is awesome against teams overly skewed towards Special attacks, and Wobbuffet, for the same reason. In my opinion they are solid choices but certain movesets for the legendaries can hurt them (Protect to stop Slaking, Calm Mind to mess up Wobbuffet, for example). Snorlax with Choice Band seems to be the most stable example right now to me for Pokemon #6. I'd really prefer to avoid Slaking if possible because one goal of this team is to be fairly hard to counter in a general sense.

But I hadn't thought too deeply about Choice Banded Dodrio or Swellow until just now either. I agree they are also top candidates. The Dodrio sounds like the better choice to me than Swellow too. But.....are Pre-Poisoned Pokemon (you send a Swellow into battle that has full HP but purposefully inflicted with Poison) legal in Ru/Sa? I only knew for sure they were legal in R/B/Y. I don't know about G/S/Ru/Sa...or Stadium/Colosseum for that matter. If legal, Swellow may be the better choice since with Facade and Guts and Choice Band it should be able to OHKO anything.

If Pre-Poisoned Pokemon are legal I think Swellow would be my #6 for sure.
Posted by veloS (Member # 2636) on 05-25-2004, 07:38 AM:
Wow, this is a great thread. Could you explain that prepoison thing to me?

What about a thick club marowak? And what about double teaming Umbreon's? What about Hazers, spikers, etc.?

I am still a n00b with RuSa, since I love the GSC series that much. Has RuSa thrown strategy out of the window in favour of sweeping? Because I was a huge fan of baton passing.

BTW, I've seen some pretty nasty lock-on OHKO Smeargles as well.

But anyways, this is a really interesting thread that mustn't die. I am currently learning about the new meta-game, and this is helping me a lot.'

EDIT: Back in the GSC days, a team like that (only legendary sweepers) would get utterly owned by a strategic team that uses BP or the such... You guys are aware of that, right?

Also, I noticed we're also talking Fire Red/Water Blue pokemon here?

[ 05-25-2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: veloS ]
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-25-2004, 04:06 PM:
Pre-Poison means that when you start your link battle, you don't heal your Pokemon beforehand. Purposefully let them be inflicted with Poison or some other ailment from a wild encounter and never heal it (just heal their HP manually with items). Though people seem to be saying it doesn't work anymore in Ru/ the game automatically heals your Pokemon (including status) for link battles. I only know for sure Pre-Poison worked in R/B/Y. People might Pre-Poison for various R/B/Y it was done to protect your Pokemon from being Frozen by Legendaries w/ Ice Beam (which was the totally dominant strategy back then). Also, Poison only took off 1/16 HP per turn instead of 1/8 (changed for G/S/C/Ru/Sa) so the damage wasn't so bad.

You are correct, in GSC days the team I wrote would die to many smarter teams. Legendary teams could work in GSC (I was experienced in R/B/Y/G/S/C online battling extensively...but am not so experienced in Ru/Sa though I know the theory behind it) but they would have to be configured with different movesets and Legendary Pokemon, and certainly not be all stupid offense like the Ru/Sa ones are.

Though the core game engine is VERY similar between Ru/Sa and G/S/C the key differences are the most subtle ones. 1) the EV system and Nature system....together these make the environment far more offensive. Basically the EV system is the DV system from before but you can only choose 2 stats to max out on DVs. Due to efficiency, people almost always choose Speed and either Attack or Special Attack (and only use either Physical or Special movesets). This causes mindless offensive battles to ensue, unfortunately, but it can't be helped. It's the fault of the new stupid system, that didn't work out as the game designers intended. Basically, what it means is that all Pokemon effectively do twice as much damage as before. So normal hits tend to take off 50% life typically between equally-matched Pokemon, while Super Effective hits usually OHKO. It's pretty pathetic. 2) Critical Hits changed for the 3rd time (they changed from R/B to G/S and again for Ru/Sa). Now, when they occur, they penetrate all defensive stat modifiers and keep all offensive stat matter what. So a CH always kills in 1 hit no matter what, essentially (or comes darn close). That's stupid and prevents tank Pokemon like Blissey, Lugia, etc from being very effective. 3) Abilities and such are the more obvious reasons why the game is different...but in reality it's reasons #1 and #2 that most people don't realize...that have changed the game the most.

So you see your Marowak is a piece of crud now. 1 hit from most Legendaries will kill it and it will never even move. Even if it gets to move all it will probably do is whack once and nearly kill something, then surely die the turn after. There's no time for things like Baton Passing or Belly Drumming anymore. It's just BOOM BOOM whack whack until everyone is dead, mostly. That's why this thread could exist. In R/B extremely defensive Legendary teams ruled the environment, and now in Ru/Sa extremely offensive Legendary teams (I wouldn't call these's bad terminology. Sweepers are fast Pokemon with Calm Mind or something. These are just brutes...designed to attack again and again with 3 or 4 different attacks) rule. It's sad when you see Recover not even being used...which is common on Legendaries nowdays. The new EV/Nature/CH system is the reason why. There's no point to Recovering if the typical attack takes off 50% life to begin with.

Spikers are worthless, due to the new whack whack environment. Who cares about Spiking if you can't stall? Umbreon will die...stalling doesn't work as well anymore. Baton Passing can work to a limited extent but chances are Pokemon will just die so it won't be as effective as it needs to be. Lock-On Smeargles will die in 1 hit...the Endure Smeargle is about the only thing that might work since Endure at least lets it go first (then Salac Berry activates so it can go first again).

Also, the 4 of the powerful Pokemon the new Legendary team I listed all do 50% more damage than normal (almost as bad as Thick Club). Soul Dew boosts SpAtk and SpDef by 50%...Kyogre's Drizzle is an awesome ability that will boost his damage 50%...Groudon's Drought doesn't really apply to his strength (Ground attacks) but put Choice Band on him (another broken item) and he will also do 50% more damage. Basically, any physical attacker now has the option to use Choice Band to do 50% more Marowak's Thick Club isn't as broken anymore comparatively. Choice Band is a stupid item. It's much better than Berserk Gene was (which no longer exists).

Hope that helps. [Smile]
Posted by veloS (Member # 2636) on 05-26-2004, 09:39 AM:
Yes, you've helped me a lot. Confirmed a lot of things for me.

Which kinda dissapoint me. Ah well. teh cheapzorz it is!


Marowak not being 00ber anymore makes me cry though. And you sure spikes are worthless? You know that the cumulative damage will go up to 25%, right? (never mind, stupid question indeed)

So... what will we conclude on what the ultimate R/S team is?
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-26-2004, 06:08 PM:
Many people play with Legendary clause or other clauses, in which case Spikers are certainly a valid strategy and teams become a little more diverse (though not as diverse as G/S/C). I think such clauses are for babies and whiners though. [Wink]

With legendaries allowed, I still think Forretress is a good Spiker (I also used him on my Legendaries team in G/S/C). At least he can also use Explosion so he has a good chance to kill even a Legendary along with himself, plus having a Steel type in your team can be useful. I don't think he is a top candidate for my #6 Pokemon though in the team above (but an okay one to use).

I'm not sure. I'm still undecided on Pokemon #6. I was hoping to get more input. Maybe give me another week to think about it if no one else helps me any further. :|

I don't think this final team will be unbeatable by a non-legendary team (or at least, not as many legendaries) though. But it will be difficult to beat, and certainly a metagame dominating team of brutes. I was thinking after we decide on the entire team I will then try to think of a way to beat it. Probably it will be possible, but only by 1 or 2 very specific counter-teams. Unlike G/S/C where the environment is much more diverse.
Posted by Donald (Member # 1551) on 05-26-2004, 08:09 PM:
6th Pokemon = Koffing


[ 05-26-2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Donald ]
Posted by Uiru (Member # 437) on 05-28-2004, 10:36 AM:
If you think this sounds broken, go play 2vs2. I hear it's cracked like an egg.

Though I agree with most of what you've said. Speed is king in RS. When I was working out a Latios moveset, I looked at Recover and said: "If it gets hit, it'll die anyway, but it isn't gonna get hit because its Special Attack STARTS at six fucking hundred and it's fast too". Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunder, Solarbeam. Oops.

I think we need to scrap Sleep Clause. Maybe an entire team of sleepers would be able to stand up to this sort of abuse. Maybe.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 05-28-2004, 03:56 PM:
If you check my initial topic post, you will see that I already specified no Sleep Clause and 1v1 battles to begin with. I agree that 2v2 battles are even more ridiculous and broken than 1v1. I do not even wish to begin thinking about them.
Posted by veloS (Member # 2636) on 05-29-2004, 10:20 AM:
Yup, clauses are for babies. I never play 2vs2 (only played it in Colosseum), but why exactly is it even more b0rked?

OK, let's see what we agree on so far.

1. I agree on Latios being a good choice. Not as a starter, but as a team member in general. I like Uiru's moveset a lot (never thought on putting S-beam on him for Groudon!), yet isn't Dragon Claw a better choice than ice beam? In case we get to face another Lati@s? And where would you put the EV's? I'd say 252 in both speed and Sp. Att. and 6 in HP. A Timid nature also works for me, and Soul Dew is a must. What do you guys think?

2. Ky00ber. Oh sorry :-). I meant Kyogre, of course. Surf and Thunder are like, basic. But what to give him then? Ancientpower (Or maybe toxic even) for the odd Shedinja? Ice beam for some stupid grass pokeys and the dragons? Calm Mind to increase his power even more (even if it gets used only once)? My Kyogre now has thunder, surf, calm mind and ancientpower. But I really want to give him Ice beam... What would be the best item for him? I currently have the same nature and EV set for him as I have for Latios, with the 6 HP exception (defense).

You guys do continue, my pizza just arrived.
Posted by Thomaz (Member # 3330) on 05-29-2004, 01:33 PM:
4/0/0/252/252/0 with Timid nature seems fine with Latios. ^^

Anyway, I prefer Rest somewhere in Kyogre's set, in case of PP wars with Calm Mind. Leftovers as item of course.
Also, with 4 EV's in Defense, Kyogre can't always take a Choice Banded Earthquake from Groudon, considering a 100 STAB attack running from an 598 Attack. 0/0/28/252/228/0 with Timid nature works for me. Kyogre will have 1 HP left if he receives max damage. [Wink]
Posted by Uiru (Member # 437) on 05-31-2004, 12:28 AM:
...and has 31 in his Defence IV.
Posted by Thomaz (Member # 3330) on 05-31-2004, 07:57 AM:
Of course.

Edit: won't a Salac Adamant Megahorn_Endure_Reversal Heracross just pound 5/6 of that team?

[ 05-31-2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Thomaz ]
Posted by Jman (Member # 618) on 05-31-2004, 06:41 PM:
there is no ultimate team

there is only magikarp
Posted by TeLeFonE (Member # 2293) on 06-01-2004, 02:21 PM:
Originally posted by Thomaz:
Of course.

Edit: won't a Salac Adamant Megahorn_Endure_Reversal Heracross just pound 5/6 of that team?

And the 6th member is Dodrio which rapes you with the actually useful move called Quick Attack. Go Dodrio.
Posted by Thomaz (Member # 3330) on 06-02-2004, 12:11 PM:
That is, if we have a Dodrio on the team. ;o
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-02-2004, 06:45 PM:
Dodrio is one of the leading candidates right now for Pokemon #6.

To make it easier for us to decide, I'll specify (for now) no item this will make our team: Latios, Latias, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Groudon, Pokemon #6.

I need another week to decide on Pokemon #6. [Smile] It doesn't seem like there is a super duper candidate though, like for the first five. Snorlax and Dodrio seem to be in the lead for now, but a ton of worthy candidates are not far behind.

I would like to avoid talking about movesets. There are many debatable movesets, EV specifications, Nature specifications, and item specifications for Pokemon (the non-obvious ones). It is debatable in this style of Ru/Sa fighting that Leftovers is even better than Brightpowder. Leftovers will probably only heal once then the Pokemon dies Brightpowder may be better in the new environment, in legendary vs legendary power battling. Leftovers heals 1/16th max HP per turn, while Brightpowder I believe has 20/256 chance of making an attack miss. If only 1 turn passes to heal, Brightpowder is better.

In any case, no moveset talking yet please. Leave it open. This helps us choose to our Pokemon easier. For example without specifying movesets, Slaking and Shedinja aren't valid candidates because we haven't seen what moves I've put on the legendaries.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-02-2004, 08:10 PM:
Thomaz that looks like a pretty good Heracross. But I don't think it can be a candidate for my Pokemon #6. For one thing, it's more of a counter to this specific team than a generic powerhouse Pokemon (Dodrio w/ Choice Band, Snorlax w/ Choice Band, etc). Also, though I won't guarantee my team will have that Pokemon in the end, Pokemon #6 Dodrio or Kingdra will destroy that Heracross, as Telefone said (Quick Attack or Swift Swim).

Even if I don't have any viable Pokemon #6 to combat Heracross....the apparently unbalanced Legendary team still has a good chance to defeat the Heracross and come out on top, with clever play.

Suppose you throw out Heracross to kill one of my legendary Psychics. Now I can play a game with you. If you try to Mega Horn me (OHKO), I just attack with Psychic. I go first and OHKO and win the match afterwards. So you will likely use Endure. If I predict this correctly, I will not attack, and either waste a healing move or swap Pokemon. If I swap, swapping to Kyogre is excellent, as he can survive a Mega Horn incase I guessed wrong. Kyogre will likely be dead though by the time you send out Heracross. So I swap to another Psychic. If you Mega Horned me then I die and I'm in trouble. But if I guess right you waste your Endure.

Now that you've wasted Endure, if you try to Endure again you only have a 50% chance it will even work. So I attack with Psychic and now there is a 50% chance your Endure fails and I win the game. Or I could take a risk and swap Pokemon yet again, making you waste another Endure, and lowering your chances of Enduring a 3rd time to 25%. You see how this game works. Even the Psychics alone can compete with that Heracross to win the match.

Now suppose luck and fate are in your favor and you manage to outguess me and Endure something. I'll just let you kill whatever is out, then send in a fresh Groudon. Groudon will take a hit from Reversal but still survive barely, then he can finish your Heracross. So all is not yet lost. Especially if my initial Psychic-type your Heracross killed was hurt to begin with, I didn't really lose out on too much. Though I will admit if you Endure successfully the chances for me to win the match are slim.

There is also the possibility Mega Horn will miss, as it is only 85% accurate, so take that into account as well. I may also decide to equip a Pokemon with Brightpowder to lower the odds further.
Posted by Thomaz (Member # 3330) on 06-03-2004, 02:47 AM:
Yeah, that's of course a little problem, but if Heracross managed to get endured and Dodrio wasn't on the team, then only Groudon would survive. That's why I said 5/6. [Razz]

Anyway, that Heracross set is not a counter, it's just a set that's useful here. [Wink]

So yeah, either Kingdra or Dodrio will do fine as the #6 Pokemon. [Smile]
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-03-2004, 04:15 PM:
Right. It's important for teams to be somewhat type-balanced. However, it's not critical for teams to be perfectly balanced. Even though only 1 out of my 5 chosen Pokemon can survive an Endured Heracross (Mega Horn can OHKO Kyogre because Heracross has his Bug Powering Ability)'s enough to stop the rampage of Heracross even should he be Endured. Granted you will take a lead in the match, but it really amounts to just one extra hit.

So you shouldn't have the mentality that just because Heracross *seems* to beat 4/5 Pokemon listed, that the team is overly weak to Heracross. Just 1 Groudon can fix my weakness, as long as he is alive.

Similarly, it's ok to use Pokemon that have weaknesses, so long as they can be sent in at an opportune time for them, against their desired opponent. That's the strategy in 6v6 team battles.

OK, I've done a lot more thinking on the last Pokemon and it's time to make a decision soon. I want to add back Ho-Oh to the list of candiates. Like Kingdra, he abuses Drought (instead of Drizzle), and this gives White Herb Overheating Ho-Oh a OHKO power against almost any Pokemon that isn't type effective. Unfortunately Lati@s and Kyogre can defeat this Ho-Oh. Groudon without Choice Band also has a 50% chance to defeat Ho-Oh by moving first and using AncientPower. But actually I consider Ho-Oh the ideal counter to Choice Banded Groudon, because he can be sent in right after Groudon OHKOs something with Earthquake....and maybe OHKO something back.

Pokemon #6 Ho-Oh also destroys Heracross more effectively than either Dodrio or Kingdra. He doesn't even need to wait for another Pokemon to possibly die. Just switch Ho-Oh in as soon as you see Heracross and laugh.

Kingdra has his share of problems as well. He has only one type weakness but unfortunately it is to Dragon, which means Lati@s easily OHKO him. While it takes Kingdra 3 Ice Beams to kill Lati@s due to Soul Dew boosting their already high SpDef. Drizzled Surf needs about 5 hits to kill Lati@s. Kingdra needs to be sent out to target and kill Mewtwo or opponent's Pokemon #6 specifically to work well, and I think this is too restrictive. He needs to wait for enemy Groudon to be dead before he can be sent out as well (or Choice Band Groudon can be switched in, remove the rain, and OHKO Kingdra) and your Kyogre to be dead also (to setup Drizzle).
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-03-2004, 04:33 PM:
I'm not too sure Dodrio is solid enough to be Pokemon #6 either, in a brute power battle of Legendaries killing each other in 2 hits. Dodrio may die in 1 hit from Lati@s, Kyogre, and maybe even Mewtwo (w/ Thunderbolt or Ice Beam) and Groudon (with AncientPower and Choice Band). Actually that's my whole team. So he can only get off 1 Drill Peck (for 50% life) or 1 Quick Attack (for maybe 25% to 33% life), or he might not even move at all and die in 1 hit. Telefone, is this wrong? You suggested Dodrio and I do like your suggestion, but now you have to support your Pokemon with some arguments. [Smile] Maybe with EVs pumped into SpDef? But then he'd lack EVs in Speed and Attack...hrm I dunno.

Snorlax is the last currently leading candidate for Pokemon #6. No arguments for him so far.

Now I'd like to make one last statement, this time regarding movesets. It occured to me yesterday that this type of battling is easily foiled by Light Screen. Thus, some of my Legendary Pokemon should be given Light Screen. Only Mewtwo and Lati@s can learn it. Probably it's a good idea to try to give at least 2 of them Light Screen, so that it lasts most of the match. Ho-Oh is a nice choice for Pokemon #6 in this regards because he too can learn Light Screen.

If possible, giving Reflect to 1 Pokemon would be nice but I doubt there will be room in the team for it. So Attack based power Pokemon other than Groudon would be great for Pokemon #6, which is a good reason to use Snorlax. Dodrio is great too but again I'm concerned about him potentially dying in 1 hit from Specials.

And finally, Calm Mind and Amnesia are still solid choices for moves. I have no idea who I'd put them on though. Amnesia is surprisingly effective, and I think few people realize this. Calm Mind is often too slow in such an offensive environment, and the Pokemon using it dies anyway without getting any benefit from it. If you want to tank up with Recover, Calm Mind is risky (you will probably die to a Critical Hit before you pump up and heal enough)...Amnesia or Light Screen works better. Hrm...probably Light Screen is better than Amnesia, don't want to be too greedy.

But it's good to have just 1 Calm Minding Recovering Pokemon on your team. This is in case you start to lose the match for some reason (or due to bad luck in moving first). Just 1 Calm Minding Recovering Mewtwo with a lot of luck (you'll need struggle between healing and powering up for like 8 or 9 turns, praying for no Critical Hit) can set himself up and sweep the enemy team, even from a previously losing situation.
Posted by Ancient Egyptian Cat-Gonk (Member # 14) on 06-12-2004, 08:22 AM:
Originally posted by Porcupine:
I only know for sure Pre-Poison worked in R/B/Y. People might Pre-Poison for various R/B/Y it was done to protect your Pokemon from being Frozen by Legendaries w/ Ice Beam (which was the totally dominant strategy back then). Also, Poison only took off 1/16 HP per turn instead of 1/8 (changed for G/S/C/Ru/Sa) so the damage wasn't so bad.

Pre-poisoning was fixed in GSC.
Posted by Uiru (Member # 437) on 06-13-2004, 12:40 AM:
Heracross' Reversal w/ Attack EV vs Houou w/o Defence EV: 205 max damage (guaranteed 2HKO w/o HP EV) (and that's without beneficial personality).

If Hera has a Salac Berry (like it should) and Houou switches in on Reversal, it's dead.

With the current Speed + Attack stat of choice system, Heracross is slowed down only by 4x resistant Fliers, such as Crobat, and Fliers that are absolutely faster (...Crobat comes to mind). Maybe that Swellow thing. Assuming it doesn't switch in, 'cause then it'll get eaten.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-14-2004, 05:54 PM:
Is Crobat absolutely faster than Heracross? What do you mean by this? I think Salac Berry'ed Heracross w/ Speed EVs is faster than Crobat w/ Speed EVs.

You're damage calculation about Heracross vs Ho-Oh is probably correct...but Ho-Oh DOES utterly negate Heracross nevertheless. If I have Ho-Oh in my team, I won't be stupid enough to even let your Heracross get Endured up. I will switch in Ho-Oh the moment I see Heracross! He will not yet have Endured and not have Salac Berry activated, and his Reversal will be weak!

Plus, chances are, your Heracross will use Endure and waste his move on the turn as I switch in Heracross (plus reduce Endure accuracy)! Or, he might MegaHorn (thinking I will switch to a Psychic as mentioned, to lower Endure accuracy) which will do NOTHING to Ho-Oh. Even if he does a weak Reversal it will only do 1/4 damage according to your calculations which is negligable.
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-14-2004, 05:57 PM:
Oops, I made a mistake typo.

> Plus, chances are, your Heracross will use Endure and waste his move on the turn as I switch in **Ho-Oh**
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-14-2004, 06:00 PM:
Oops, another mistake. If Heracross uses Reversal before I hit him, it will barely do any damage at all. Base Power 20, or something.
Posted by Uiru (Member # 437) on 06-15-2004, 04:38 AM:
Ah, but if Heracross finds itself face to face with a Houou when it isn't ready to punch it in the throat, it can leave.

Heracross w/ Salac Berry is faster than Crobat, even one with beneficial Speed & EVs. :o

And as a side note, it learns Swords Dance and Rock Slide in RG. :o

[ 06-15-2004, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Uiru ]
Posted by Donald (Member # 1551) on 06-15-2004, 04:54 PM:
Heracross w/ Salac Berry (and +Speed personality) is faster than Crobat, even one with beneficial Speed & EVs. ~Uiru
You forgot something. If Heracross doesn't have a +Speed and Crobat does (which it usually will, given that the Choice Band is around), it goes first after the Salac assuming max effort and DVs all around.

And as a side note, it learns... Rock Slide in RG. [Embarrassed]
Aerodactyl gets Rock Slide in RS too.

(Insert squeal of delight here).
Posted by Porcupine (Member # 46) on 06-15-2004, 06:31 PM:
Yes, Heracross can always run from Ho-Oh. But, if he does, you give up a turn for your team. In general, this will cause you to lose the match if most of it is legendary power-battling.

Plus, if Groudon has setup hit from Ho-Oh with Overheat (and probably White Herb) will OHKO a typical legendary you might switch in (Groudon, Mewtwo). Of course, this means you should switch in Kyogre (if he is still alive) or Lati@s. Even Lati@s will feel pain though because I think they will still be 2-hit KOed by such a Ho-Oh even with both Soul Dew and type effectiveness.

But then Heracross might come back later when Ho-Oh is dead, and then he might win the match again. Plus, if he can learn Rock Slide like you said, he crushes Ho-Oh. Even if he couldn't, he has a free moveslot he could just learn HP Rock it's just as good.

Hrm..maybe Kingdra (for Swift Swim) or Dodrio (Quick Attack) is good for Pokemon #6 after all. I'm still learning towards Snorlax though, even though he doesn't help against Heracross (Snorlax will be great at taking out the other legendaries).
Posted by Uiru (Member # 437) on 06-15-2004, 10:20 PM:
Heracross: 269 * 1.5 = 403
Crobat: 359 * 1.1 = 394

Karpe Diem