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Author Topic: Butterfree's Cheapness Revisited
I M A Pokeprofessional
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-09-2002 10:17 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all, Butterfree was in RBY, and he ruled.

Then, in GS, it was widely known for its dominance.

Then, to add on tothis travesty, Butterfree gets SILVER WIND in R/S!!!!!

I cannot believe this! It is an outrage!

[ 12-23-2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: I M A Pokeprofessional ]

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gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
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posted 12-09-2002 11:16 PM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First, is there really a need for another topic here?

I'm amazed that concepts such as legitimacy and legality are so hard for people to grasp...no, it obviously has nothing to do with maintaing the real-world format of the multiplayer game, they just love luck and hate strategy!

From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
I M A Pokeprofessional
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posted 12-09-2002 11:18 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Meh, I have been metagaming ever since R/S stats were posted, I do not want people to set rules which make my hard work obsolete, that is all. I counted on 386 pokemon, as did everyone else. Only 386 pokemon can ensure a balanced metagame.
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SDShamshel
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posted 12-09-2002 11:36 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, we want to adhere to how the game is supposed to be played AT THE MOMENT. As soon as Nintendo says, "Hey, here's how you get these Pokemon," then hell, everything's fair game. 386 is fine and dandy.

But until that point, 202 (or whatever the number would be at that time) is the way the game is gonna be played. I mean, would we shark up a team with some of the 184 Pokemon IRL and go to battle using it, just because "they'll be in the game eventually?"

And it sounds more like you're saying, "Oh no, my study of the metagame might go up in smoke because the metagame I chose to study might not be the one that gets played."

Having the majority of the online Pokemon community support something doesn't make it good. OHKO clause is done by most of the online community for GSC and it's mighty lame.

[ 12-09-2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: SDShamshel ]

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
I M A Pokeprofessional
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-09-2002 11:38 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nobie, not according to the majority. We are giving the 202ers a choice to play either 202 pokemon or 386 pokemon. The "202 club" gives the 386 pokemon users NO choice, pretty selfish if you ask me.
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gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
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posted 12-09-2002 11:40 PM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by I M A Pokeprofessional:
Only 386 pokemon can ensure a balanced metagame.

I think that's a little presumptuous.

It's still probably too early to say whether or not the 386 metagame will be universally superior. Of course, I'm inclined to say it will be, as I'm sure most sane people will be, after all, more options and diversity leads to a greater variety of counters and strategies (plus you gotta trust Gamefreak). But until both metagmes have really had the chance to grow from direct experience, a definitive answer is really out of the question.

I really don't have a problem with people playing with 386 Pokemon before they are legally obtainable (as long as they aren't playing me, good communication, all that jazz), I just think it's incredibly silly. Then again, I think bot-battling is pretty silly in general, and subject to some really arbitrary and ridiculous rules (it's okay to pull any kind of hidden power out of your ass, but don't use DT or put two pokes to sleep!).

In a sense this whole thing reminds me of one of the main points K brought up in the old Sharking's Ethicality Revisited thread. Using all the older Pokes before they're available means that you're not really playing Pokemon, but "IMAP's-version-of-Pokemon-that-isn't-quite-Pokemon." Of course, simulators were never really Pokemon to begin with, but now the gap seems to be widening to the point where they can't even pretend to be the same game.

That said, I still think there's nothing wrong with speculating about the future usefullness about Pokemon that will most probably become available at some point in the future.

[ 12-09-2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: gruco ]

From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-09-2002 11:43 PM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
we're given 202 in the Cartridge...but since when are we playing by cart rules?

not all 251 were on gold cart...yet we still allowed celebii and the ones available on silver to be played right?

the fact that the pokemon EXIST, means they should be part of the metagame...because sooner or later, they're gonna be in the game anyway lol.

i think the "lol 202 pokemon club" is kinda lame, because you guys are just scared that strategies like bellrest, curselax, etc. will still exist, and make the game "boring".

if that's not the case, please explain why you guy can't accept that the 386 pokemon exist in this series.

just cuz they're not on the cart, doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the metagame dudes...

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 12-09-2002 11:46 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, maybe here's how it should go.

At the moment, 202 should be considered the norm, and 386 the "different" cup, because that's how the GAMES are like right now. Not our magical speculation land (which I love), not some RSBots, not an RSPBS, but the actual games. And don't give me any of that "they're programmed into it" stuff. As long as it is currently inaccessible by any known IN-GAME means (which includes glitches) or through an official thingit like for Mew or Celebi or the Pokecenter Pokemon, then the only way to obtain them is through a cheating device, and that's exactly what the name is.

However, once Nintendo tells us how to get these suckers, or we find an IN-GAME way to do so, then 386 will be the norm with 202 as the sub-thing.

202, concept-wise though, is kind of nice, as it's kind of like they're shedding almost all of the old things. (Though I'd rather do R/S Pokemon only for this effect). Almost like an alternate universe in an anime. A near-fresh start instead of a sequel. After all, the issue with battling only with GSC Pokemon was that there was only 100 new Pokemon. But they've introduced 186 new Pokemon for RuSa, and that makes it bigger than the original game, and can keep it from being excessive. After all, more characters != better. It can be better, but not necessarily.

Damn people, have some patience. You'd think with the amount of time it takes to level up a team to 100 you people would actually have the ability to wait for the other 184 to be officially released.

[ 12-09-2002, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: SDShamshel ]

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-09-2002 11:52 PM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
dude, if we are talking about making a BOT nobie, then it makes sense to include all the pokemon that will be used while the series lasts (meaning even the old pokemon, cuz it's 100% that all pokemon will be usable lol)

i cannot understand exactly what the hell you're talking about with the 202 being useable in competetive play...

maybe cart-to-cart, right away, the 202 pokemon will be standard rule (cuz they're not available YET)...but um, on a bot we at least have an advantage because we are able to use all the pokemon.

eventually cart will be 386, but that's not what i'm trying to say. i hope you're talkin about bot-play nobie, cuz if you're not, you lost me.

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 12-10-2002 12:02 AM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree wthat 386 should be programmed in advance onto the bots. It's fine, and it'll save work.

But the bots are supposed to be a substitute for battling right? Not a replacement, a substitute. It is never supposed to be the true game, and the game is always more important than the bots. So as for now, when we play, we CAN play 386, but it should not be considered "the norm."

We also may not know whether or not which parts of certain Pokemon are accessible. After all, Starmie has breedable moves, but it cannot breed. It's programmed into the game, but it's not meant to be there. What if certain moves (bred moves most likely) are not obtainable in any way due to an oversight on Game Freak and Nintendo's parts, and people use it on the bots anyway? We've just been playing a non-true version of the game by any standards, 202, 386, 151, or 1.

Actually, here's a question:

What if Nintendo decided to do a big WORLD tourney again, and with a better system then the very selective one they had last time? And what if they did so before the other 184 were released? Would you people just go "Grr, this isn't the true metagame!" and not go?

It's not that 386 shouldn't be used EVER, it's that 386 should not be considered the norm when it currently isn't.

It's kind of like not calling Celebi an 00ber. Even if it had 5 base stats all around and was like a poison/fighting, it would still be 00ber because that's the title given to it. What's normal right now is normal right now.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 12-10-2002 12:12 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*Sighs* Isn't it interesting to note how very quickly IMAP can change the tone of his argument? One minute it's "But, we can play 386 too!" and then it's "We'll let you 202ers have your sub-game".

I don't know if it's just the fact I haven't strayed into #pokebattle for any length of time since about a year ago, or does IMAP seem to be voicing a minority here, and making it out to be a majority? I mean, I've seen MK, IMAP and Fluorine post up here with a pro-386 stance.

The "202 club" sees it differently. I imagine that most dislike rest bell and other conventional strategies

Well, I don't dislike Rest Bell. Infact, most of my GSC teams make great use of Rest, often in combination with Sleep Talk (which is no longer a great option in R/S with a lack of Sleep Talk TMage)

Other conventional strategies? You mean standards? Why, yes, I dislike standard Pokemon. Although, on one hand I like them, becuase when an opponent uses them you can guess in one to two moves exactly what they can and can't do with that Pokemon.

and seek to use luck as a MAJOR factor in determining games (after all, RBY was mostly luck).

Oh, yeah...like R/S is setup so luck is a huge part. No..R/S is setup so that there is less emphasis on the stats of a Pokemon. With the stat experience cap, and personalities, you now have to train your Pokemon specifically for the moveset you give it. It is not luck that casts the battle, it is more than ever the movesets, and how they interact with the characteristic and item the Pokemon has.

Besides, will you 386ers play with the stat cap? Or will you wave your magical sharking wand and say that there's no stat cap in the old games so there won't be now? How's them issues for you 386ers to solve?

They perhaps fear the poer of Snorlax, the mini-legends, and the old favorites.

Perhaps, the 386ers don't want to leave the safety of their Snorlax, mini-legends and the old favourites.

I think that all of this sharking crap is just a scapegoat, nothing more. All of the pokemon are in the game; all of the moves are known for all of the pokemon.

I think that all of this "the moves are known" crap is just a cover; nothing more.

Thus, I would like the real reason why people who wish to restrict the game to 202 pokemon want to do so. I feel there is a reason that goes deeper than sharking.

Well, for me personally it's pretty simple. No baggage from the old games. It's a whole new world, baby-e! New metagame to explore, new in game to work through soundly, new depth to battling with new moves, personalities, characteristics - the challenge of it all being new and fresh! It's not GSC where I'm trying to squeeze the last uses out of original movesets (although, that is quite fun), it's a blank slate. Plus, with the new stats system, it's a game to get back to the roots of battling, where everything is up in the air, instead of a spreadsheet "This attack will OHKO you now" game.

Sharking as the only method to evade this 'restricted' amount of Pokemon is only a way to show that it isn't an abritary restriction if you have to forcibly bypass it. It's not like 202ers are clausing out the old Pokemon - they're not there to be claused out of a 202 metagame.

- - - - -
My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge

From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
JP Nogueira
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posted 12-10-2002 12:20 AM      Profile for JP Nogueira   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Thus, I would like the real reason why people who wish to restrict the game to 202 pokemon want to do so. I feel there is a reason that goes deeper than sharking.
Yes. I think the reason is being able to handle with "rules". Just be patient, ok? As soon as the old pokémon become "unlocked", everybody will be using them too.

And this kind of attitude is different of "being affraid of Rest Bell & cia" or "seeking to use luck as a MAJOR factor ". It is just "trying to play the game as it is now, and not as it is intended to be in the future".

EDIT: I know all of this was said, but I was chating with a friend and forgot to "send". At that time, everything was already happening ._.

Just to make this edition worth, I think 386ers should take a breath and just try the new game, placing the old ones aside by now. I don't believe you're so dependant of the old ones, right?

It is easier to old players like us guess a metagame with 386 pokés than a newbie, playing RS as his(her) first Pokémon game. And, honestly, I don't think sharking them up in the game would "show up" the new metagame. We already have move pools, powers (traits) list, stats and a bit of training/battle mechanics. That is what someone needs to build the base of team project, right? This is similar to the info Bots hold, right? So.. "I feel that there is a reason that goes deeper than using sharking".

Heh.. and I hardly doubt that the new metagame will raise from emulators and japanese roms ^^ I place my bets in experience from old players, and what we can think to have some fun/win battles.

[ 12-10-2002, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: JP Nogueira ]

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----======= (o)
JP Noga
Gym Leader from Brazil

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EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-10-2002 01:09 AM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Perhaps, the 386ers don't want to leave the safety of their Snorlax, mini-legends and the old favourites.

oh i'm sorry, if you wanna play that way:

202 kids like you are the ones that complain about the Crystal infuluences, and the Pokecenter NY moves cuz you weren't smart enough to find out how to counter them?

you guys didn't wanna change strategies in GSC and were pissed that the metagame changed so fast and so much that your precious little "non-heal bell" teams didn't last.

your fault, that's why you guys weren't successful on GSbot or anthing.

and btw, i'm a 386'er, i don't use Snorlax, or any legendaries, and it's safe to say i'm one of the best that played on the bots. (others have said this, not myself).

oh and if you think snorlax is gone just cuz of this little 202 rule you're making tghost, you're so very wrong. 100% wrong. gg though.

what's also funny is that most "202'ers" can't play GSC and win if their life depended on it. cuz they can't accept that standards are better than "underused" in most cases. there will just be a standard battle in the 202 world. at least in 386 you non-creative players can create more strategies instead of abusing the mini-metagame that'll be available in "202 gameplay".(which won't happen btw)

[ 12-10-2002, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: EspeonNidoking ]

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 12-10-2002 01:15 AM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Your ego's gotten mighty big there, EN.
From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-10-2002 01:19 AM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
if you didn't sense my sarcasm you lose i think.

- - - - -
"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 12-10-2002 01:22 AM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It seems more like you're bad at sarcasm.

After all, no one so far has said "THEY ROXOR AT POGEYMANZ" on the 202 side, so you're not exactly mocking or parodying anything, now.

Though it's pretty silly to say "202" is "202 now and forever." It's "202 right now." That'd be like saying battling 386 meant you could never ever decide to use a 202 format if you felt like it.

[ 12-10-2002, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: SDShamshel ]

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Donald
Bob the Builder
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posted 12-10-2002 01:28 AM      Profile for Donald   Email Donald      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EspeonNidoking:
you guys didn't wanna change strategies in GSC and were pissed that the metagame changed so fast and so much that your precious little "non-heal bell" teams didn't last.

Consider thine ass called out the minute you get IRC access back.

The Bombshell is not impressed with that remark.

From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
warcraft 3
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posted 12-10-2002 01:39 AM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i knew don would call me out after that!

ok next week when i come home for winter break, i'll be on irc to play you!

NIDOKING I CHOOSE YOU!

- - - - -
"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
JP Nogueira
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posted 12-10-2002 01:44 AM      Profile for JP Nogueira   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
--'

Hey... why do you keep spreading away instead of focusing? I mean... flames and offenses instead of solid arguements. The question is more than "you can't do it" or "I'm right! You're wrong".

So... RSBots will have 386, ok? PERFECT! Use them to make the new metagame. But, when talking about cartridges and GBA's, getting old ones while other players officialy cannot is unfair.

Well. I see 386ers as players who want to win, no matter what it takes; and 202ers as people who really want to have some fun. Who is wrong? NOBODY! It is like saying a true Hinduist is wrong because I´m Christian.

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----======= (o)
JP Noga
Gym Leader from Brazil

From: Brazil | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-10-2002 01:55 AM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
tghost started it with his stereotype of "386'ers" being standard GSC players that abused standard strategies like curselax.

which isn't true.

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 12-10-2002 03:53 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I did write up a response to EN, but then I deleted it and took a chill pill. I thought it was the best course of action.

Oh, and EN, don't tell the 202ers how their game will turn out. Why don't you take your 386ers and #pokebattlers to whereever you care to go, and do whatever you want, and we'll see you when Gamefreak gives us all 386 the legit way.

Oh, and battle skills in GSC have nothing to do with it, and being the 'best' on GSBot isn't terribly braggable either, you may as well be saying you're one of the more intelligent people at Pojo - it may impress Pojobies but it just puts you on equal footing (or less) with serious Pokemon players who wouldn't touch GSBot with a ten foot barge pole unless they'd organised a battle.

Besides, battle skills have no relevance to this discussion.

And check your "202ers suck at Pogeymons" attitude at reception, will you?

I'd say this chasm has always existed. There is the egotistical Pokemon community focused mainly on GSBot, and the experienced Pokemon community focused mainly in forums.

- - - - -
My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge

From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-10-2002 04:59 AM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
me posting at pojo has nothing to do with the discussion either.

and you were the one that brought battle skills into the discussion....the comment of "386'ers" and their "precious snorlax and other legendaries" comment implies that we are all standard and don't wanna leave standards correct?

i'm simply saying that's not true and it's not right for you to judge any of us just because we disagree with you. [Razz]

the snorlax comment had nothing to do with the discussion either...dont be hypocritical :\

- - - - -
"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
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posted 12-10-2002 05:08 AM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and you were the one that brought battle skills into the discussion....the comment of "386'ers" and their "precious snorlax and other legendaries" comment implies that we are all standard and don't wanna leave standards correct?


If you want to say that that comment was about 'battle skills', then IMAP's first post was loaded with it - fearing the power of Snorlax and mini-legends, 202 as a "sucky cup", dislike conventional strategies, seek luck as a MAJOR factor...don't junk the "you started it" on me.

me posting at pojo has nothing to do with the discussion either.

It was an analogy. I make them. I don't think that comparing GSBot to Pojo is a bad analogy. I didn't specifically mention the fact you post at Pojo - I mentioned the fact that bragging about GSBot was the same as bragging about being a smarter poster at Pojo.

m simply saying that's not true and it's not right for you to judge any of us just because we disagree with you.

Pratise what you preach, then. Don't say the 202ers can't 'play and win' at GSC.

the snorlax comment had nothing to do with the discussion either...dont be hypocritical :\

I was twisting IMAP's words - it was his comment about Snorlax to begin with, so my response to that had relevance.

- - - - -
My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge

From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
warcraft 3
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posted 12-10-2002 05:21 AM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Pratise what you preach, then. Don't say the 202ers can't 'play and win' at GSC.
grrr...that was a response to your snorlax comment. but whatever

- - - - -
"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fluorine
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posted 12-10-2002 09:31 AM      Profile for Fluorine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The norm is decided by the majority.

In real life, with the real carts, it's obvious the majority won't shark and that the norm will be 202.

In an upcoming RSBot, if the majority prefers the metagame with 386 pokemon, then it will be the norm.

And the question of legitimacy isn't relevant. If everyone cheat, cheating becomes the norm, and the norm is always right. Then you're left with your own personal preferences.

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Uiru
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posted 12-10-2002 09:37 AM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's always been a chasm in the community... on one side, you have people who like to play and win. On the other side, you have cheaters. I've decided to start bolding that because apparently, some people are unable to see the word, so I have to point it out for them.

Anticipating a 386 game on an online battle simulator is rather lame, if you ask me. The carts are restricted to 202, why should the online system be any different? Assuming that Charizard is ready to be used online is even worse than assuming that Nidoking's Lovely Kiss is a legal move for everyone to use. Just because you 'want' something doesn't mean you can have it. I 'want' a Butterfree with a 50 point boost across the board, but you don't see me sharking one up.

quote:
It's kind of like not calling Celebi an 00ber. Even if it had 5 base stats all around and was like a poison/fighting, it would still be 00ber because that's the title given to it.
Such a nice post and then you ruined it with this. [Razz] Celebi's 00ber status was given to it by the frightened little children infesting GSBot, certainly not by Nintendo. Numbers, anyone?
  • Celebi's stat total is a full 80 points lower than Mewtwo, Lugia, and Houou.
  • Celebi does not have any grossly superior stats.
  • Celebi does not boast an absolutely twisted TM compatibility list.
  • Celebi gives considerably less experience than any other Legendary-level Pokémon- much, much less than Mewtwo, Lugia and Houou.
  • Celebi does not appear with the same 'flourish' in Stadium 2's credits; a clear indication that Game Freak does not consider it to be at their level.
  • Celebi is available for use as a rental in Stadium 2's Prime Cup.
The evidence is staggering, and the majority is wrong, because all they can come up with is "but it is because I said so!". Show me some numbers of your own next time; show me something from Nintendo that proves Celebi is a Super Legendary. All your theory and metagaming is useless in the face of simple numbers and facts, which all point to Celebi being a perfectly standard legendary-level Pokémon. A good one, yes, but isn't Snorlax better anyway?
~Uiru

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From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
LanderZRPG
Got a whale of a tale to tell ya, lads!
Member # 1615

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posted 12-10-2002 09:52 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by I M A Pokeprofessional:
After all, R/S was SUPPOSED to give us more pokemon to test out our old faves on, right?

And is this based on anything but speculation? Did you have a nice long chat with the programmers, over in Japan, and come to this conclusion?

quote:

Also included in this group are the people who appreciate all strats. What I mean by this is the people who are ready to combat any strategy (including rest bell) and realize that they need the usage of every pokemon to do so. The metagame is complete, right? Or so one would think...



If you need every pokemon to use strategies, it means you aren't looking hard enough. You can use a bunch of different pokemon for strategies, such as Quagsire as a Curser, or Ursaring as a Counterer... I bet no-386'er is going to complain about Skarmory getting Spikes (Oh, dear God...)

quote:

The "202 club" sees it differently. I imagine that most dislike rest bell and other conventional strategies, and seek to use luck as a MAJOR factor in determining games (after all, RBY was mostly luck). They perhaps fear the poer of Snorlax, the mini-legends, and the old favorites.



And you just take a guess. A completely wild one. I loathe luck, 9 times out of 10. If I get a creepily lucky run vs an opponent on the bots, with him not getting any, I apologize like mad. It's 'fair' gameplay, but few rely on it. It happens, so people cope, but it always seems to stink towards one of the battlers.

As for the strategies... I haven't had a team in a long time that doesn't rely on Restbell (Save for my utterly-sucky-BP-team)... But strategies isn't the issue that 202'ers are seeing. It's the fact that the game was obviously meant to have 202, for a reason, or there would have been a coded-in way to get 386, or a way to trade for them. In R/B, we couldn't get about 16 pokes, but you could trade for them. That was perfectly fine. In R/S, you can't get 180-some pokes, and CANNOT trade for them. I think there's a message in this....

quote:
I think that all of this sharking crap is just a scapegoat, nothing more.



Scapegoat? No. It's the reason. If I find some idiot over the bots who has a Counter/HealBell Blissey, I flame them like mad. True, some Smeargle glitch might make this 'possible', but before that happened, whoever did this would be considered a 'sharker' or an idiot who didn't know the rules, and just saw moves.

quote:

Do not get me wrong, 202 pokemon teams will still be used, but as a sort of "sucky cup". The 386 pokemon metagame provides all f the answers to the most pressing strategies and moves (build up, enlighte, curse, etc).

As many views have been expressed, this is a bit backwards. Chances are pretty high that, although bots will support 202, people will end battles before they begin if the opponent doesn't follow 202, or whatnot. I mean, it's like bringing in a Mewtwo vs an Underused team. True, it _can_ be beaten, but if you haven't prepared for it, it can be a helluva difficult thing to do.

quote:

Meh, I have been metagaming ever since R/S stats were posted, I do not want people to set rules which make my hard work obsolete, that is all.



Yeah, that would sure suck. Poor IMAP might need to change his strategies and his last 3 weeks of 'effort' to accomodate for the majority.

Mind you, the kid who buys a gameshark, and spends 3 weeks of learning how to use it, and sharking 999 stat monstrosities also has to change his.

quote:
Originally posted by SDShamsel:
No, we want to adhere to how the game is supposed to be played AT THE MOMENT. As soon as Nintendo says, "Hey, here's how you get these Pokemon," then hell, everything's fair game. 386 is fine and dandy.



I agree wholeheartedly with this. There is obviously a reason for 202 pokes, but there is another for why the 186 pokes got new moves and such. They probably will eventually get released, but what if, for whatever reason, they don't? Then all the sharkers with 386 will just whine and complain some more? I certainly hope they use more dignity than that.

quote:
Originally posted by EspeonNidoking:
i think the "lol 202 pokemon club" is kinda lame, because you guys are just scared that strategies like bellrest, curselax, etc. will still exist, and make the game "boring".



No clue if this was your sarcasm, nor do I really care. The old strategies won't make it boring; it'll make it different. No-one claimed it would be boring. How on earth an assumption like that can be made, is beyond me.
Plus, the fact that it isn't the strategies that the 202-players are against. They've played GS, and used these strategies just as much as any 386'er.

Personally, I hope to build a 202 team that can stand up to 386, just like we can build teams of Underused that can stand up to standards.

Of course, the Cheese-Quartet will be banned, as will Curselax. No offense, but most people refrain from using the lax, as it is, at least with Curse. I mean, stick a Mewtwo with Build up in, just for kicks... it's about as fair.

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From: High Prairie, AB, Canada | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fluorine
SMELLY BUTT
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posted 12-10-2002 09:56 AM      Profile for Fluorine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It should be obvious enough that people on bots never cared about cheating. People on bots don't want to play "pokemon". They want to play THEIR version of pokemon, with rules THEY came up with. You could say bot people are playing Botémon, a small variation unto classic Pokémon play, and which is progressively growing more different.

So yeah, um, who cares?

Concerning Celebi's "00ber" status, though, I totally agree. Celebi is a rather lame pokemon in fact [Frown]

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Uiru
Sketch Molester
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posted 12-10-2002 09:58 AM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I forgot this.

quote:
Thus, in a well-ritten article,
laff
~Uiru

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TIDUDSOFIEIHUGHEXXXC: "maybe he will let you touch his blow up do"

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From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
JP Nogueira
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 11:40 AM      Profile for JP Nogueira   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If I find some idiot over the bots who has a Counter/HealBell Blissey, I flame them like mad. True, some Smeargle glitch might make this 'possible'(...)
Err, no, you can't have Counter/Heal Bell Blissey using Smeargle trick. Old TMs and Egg Move.

quote:
It should be obvious enough that people on bots never cared about cheating. People on bots don't want to play "pokemon". They want to play THEIR version of pokemon, with rules THEY came up with. You could say bot people are playing Botémon, a small variation unto classic Pokémon play, and which is progressively growing more different.
The best Bot definition ever!

And FYI, Meowth346 said that even if you "catch" these "locked" pokémon, they won't be in the pokédex. A bit different of sharking for Mew and Celebi in RS. Again, wait is the wisiest option.

[ 12-10-2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: JP Nogueira ]

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From: Brazil | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 01:12 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Uiru:

Such a nice post and then you ruined it with this. [Razz] Celebi's 00ber status was given to it by the frightened little children infesting GSBot, certainly not by Nintendo. Numbers, anyone?
  • Celebi's stat total is a full 80 points lower than Mewtwo, Lugia, and Houou.
  • Celebi does not have any grossly superior stats.
  • Celebi does not boast an absolutely twisted TM compatibility list.
  • Celebi gives considerably less experience than any other Legendary-level Pokémon- much, much less than Mewtwo, Lugia and Houou.
  • Celebi does not appear with the same 'flourish' in Stadium 2's credits; a clear indication that Game Freak does not consider it to be at their level.
  • Celebi is available for use as a rental in Stadium 2's Prime Cup.
The evidence is staggering, and the majority is wrong, because all they can come up with is "but it is because I said so!". Show me some numbers of your own next time; show me something from Nintendo that proves Celebi is a Super Legendary. All your theory and metagaming is useless in the face of simple numbers and facts, which all point to Celebi being a perfectly standard legendary-level Pokémon. A good one, yes, but isn't Snorlax better anyway?
~Uiru

Well, the point of this was that just because people go and say "oh, Celebi isn't 00ber" because blah blah blah or say, "Celebi IS 00ber" because blah blah blah, and argue raw stats and metagame and what-not, but Nintendo has given it such a status by essentially making it the Mew of GSC, then it gains the title of 00ber.
I won't go into reason why it is, gameplay-wise though. That's not the point.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
I M A Pokeprofessional
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 03:03 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hehe, Tghost, you do know that you started this, you lit the flame that is slowly buring away the wax of the pokemon community.

Unless you plan on bot battling, just shut up, we do not care if you do not want 202 pokemon.

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I M A Pokeprofessional
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 03:06 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, and yes, I have a 202 pokemon team, it would win a bit too easily, so that is why I want 386 pokemon. Poor IMAP has a back-up plan, for the new sub-standard called "202 pokemon allowed".
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MTG
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posted 12-10-2002 03:09 PM      Profile for MTG   Author's Homepage   Email MTG   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
202 whould be even more standard than rby, aren't we always complaing about the lack of originality from players? 386 would allow people to have better selection for their teams.
From: NYC | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
warcraft 3
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posted 12-10-2002 03:26 PM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MTG is correct.

quote:
Of course, the Cheese-Quartet will be banned, as will Curselax. No offense, but most people refrain from using the lax, as it is, at least with Curse. I mean, stick a Mewtwo with Build up in, just for kicks... it's about as fair.

uh....wtf because it's hard to beat, means it will be banned? lol

that's like some newbie in warcraft 3 i saw the other day:

"Demon Hunter is too strong, heroes are too strong, i think heroes are overpowered and shouldn't be included in the game" ~warcraft 3 newbie.

landerz, the game was meant to revolve around legendaries (which i assume you are referring to as "cheese"..) just like warcraft 3 was meant to revolve around Heroes.

if you can't beat Legendaries, then obviously your underused trash isn't meant to compete in competetive games?

deal with it dude. curselax was a good strategy for whoever thought it up, and it's a strat (just like "bellrest cheese" that imap thought up) that won't die in R/S...i think a lot of you 202'ers know that old GSC strats are way too good to die in RuSa...strats you guys hated because they were standard...like bellrest...snorlax and legendaries etc....

deal with it. =\

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From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 04:14 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, here's a simple thing.

When GS first came out, and people naturally began sharking their old Pokemon, we found that the legendaries could learn moves below level 50, the most well-known example being Flamethrower Moltres. It was programmed into the game! Moltres got it at a specific level and everything! However, before we found out how to first get it (Stadium 2), was it allowed on the bots? I don't recall that happening, and using these moves was not considered "legal." Same thing goes for those moves Mewtwo gets before level 70. The point is not whether or not the metagame is balanced one way or another (as most of the moves Mewtwo learned early on were pretty lame), but that it adheres to the game itself. We did not start using Crystal Influence until the game came out in Japan and we knew exactly what it took, the Move Tutor. This isn't even the case now.

I of course agree that all 386 Pokemon should be programmed into the bots, but it's a bit presumptuous to be called 386 "the normal" mode of gameplay, when right now it isn't.

As for why people would like to break away from Curselax and what-not or would like to play 202, it's because some people desire a clean break. A fresh start. Think up new strategies based on new Pokemon, and don't fall back too much on the old ones. I've said before that I would really like a game with NONE of the old Pokemon, so that we won't have Mewtwo as the eternal "kick ass 00ber" or Chansey/Blissey as "high HP" one. Sure, new ones will develop, but at least they'd be NEW.

The best comparison I can think of is Pokemon to Gundam. The main Gundam timeline is Universal Century, and it's the foundation upon which Gundam has been built. There are certain characters that have been the mainstay of the series, and appear in sequel after sequel, but eventually most of them just get killed or die on their own or whatever. Sure, people are upset that their favorite characters died, but there's also the matter of starting anew. This is even more magnified by the alternate universe where the only thing "Gundam" about them is giant robots and the name.

I mean, don't people complain and worry that the "next Pokemon game" wherever they may be will be just a rehash of the old stuff, plus a new set of Pokemon? By wiping the board clean, it's not really the case then. And while Ru/Sa hasn't wiped the board clean, the appeal of 202 can be pretty close to that.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
cfalcon
OLDNBLD
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posted 12-10-2002 04:44 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't read this topic. I figure a lot of you have well written posts, but the top post is so ludicrous I have to respond.

Do not assume that anyone wants to play 202 because they don't like the 386 metagame. 202, is, apparently, the current design of the game. If you own the game, there is no legal way to get 386 right now. Yes, eventually there will be, but that's irrelevant from a certain perspective, and, while not one I favor, it isn't wrong.

Your "well ritten" article amounts to a baseless accusation of your fellow gamers attempting to use any excuse at all to hose you. Or something. While some people may like fewer monsters (or whatever metagame thing you want to yell at them about), they aren't invalid until they start saying something like "386 is cheating".

There are clearly two ways to play this game right now: the "current" way and the "complete" way. Neither is wrong.

See, the game *is* written for the 386 monsters, but because we don't have them all legally yet, we can assume that it is *also* written for the 202 monsters. Both games are valid. Nintendo hasn't approved of one yet, so you can just assume that you have an advance preview of what it will almost certainly look like.

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Uiru
Sketch Molester
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posted 12-10-2002 04:56 PM      Profile for Uiru   Author's Homepage   Email Uiru   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but Nintendo has given it such a status by essentially making it the Mew of GSC,
Nintendo has done no such thing. Mew isn't Super Legendary either, for most of the reasons detailed above. But even comparing Mew and Celebi, Celebi is clearly different- its DVs are random, its TM compatibility is pretty tame even when compared to the non-legendary 600 statters, and while it has more strengths than Mew, it also has many more, easily exploitable weaknesses.

As for the topic at hand, if you want to play with a 386 Pokémon game, go right ahead. Just don't assume it'll be the standard.
~Uiru

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From: the floating castle of Newfoundland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 12-10-2002 05:55 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uiru: The difference is that you are determining whether or not a Pokemon is "00ber" based on its battle prowess or ability to be helpful in battle. I am determining "00ber" status based on plot and the story behind a Pokemon.

After all, a turd-flavored ice cream is still considered an ice cream no matter how horrible it tastes. Similarly, as long as the "plot" determines the Pokemon to be 00ber (and traveling through time as a power certainly qualifies), then I think it gains the title of 00ber, even if it had 50 base stats all around.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hipmonlee
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posted 12-10-2002 06:08 PM      Profile for Hipmonlee        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the moment the argument seems to be going "playing online = 386, playing offline = 202" But, as someone who is really never gonna get to battle offline, I am gonna lay my case for why online battles should be done true to the GBA game..

The anti-386 argument about the 202 being the legitimate version of pokemon is irrellevant. If we are battling for fun, so we should be able to battle the way that is funnest.. So having 202 pokemon should not be the automatic option for our battles..

However I don't see that allowing the old pokemon will make for funner batling.
The theory that just by having more pokemon means there will be more possible teams, and therefore more possible strategies and more fun battling is not nescesarily the case. There will be significant differences between the 2 styles and as I see it, the one more likely to encourage different strategies is the 202 style..
The most obvious difference between the two is the strength of the heal bellers. Heal bell/Rest is an overwhelmingly dominant strategy in GSC battles, and amongst the 202 pokemon there has been a clear attempt made to decrease its dominance, providing oppourtunity for new strategies to be created.
There are other aspects of the make-up of the 202 set that hint at attempts to ballance some common GSC strategies. For instance, all spikers now share a common weakness of fire.. Not particularly world-shattering, but I doubt this was just a coincidence.
Interestingly enough, last I heared, IMAP's team for R/S consisted entirly of old pokemon from GSC.. Kinda hints at the fact that the addition of new pokemon just serves to upset the balance of the game.
My last point is the effect Wobbuffet will have on a battle. Wobbuffet is incredibly strong, but probably quite easy to counter, it's just that it needs to be countered by every pokemon on your team as you wont be able to switch.. People doing this will generally render Wobbuffet unuseable, so that people wont bother to counter it.. Then you might find yourself in a circumstance where the game turns into paper scissors rock: If I counter Wobbuffet, and my opponent doesn't counter him, I am almost certain to lose; If I don't counter wobbuffet, and my opponent does use him, I also will lose.. If you have no idea what your opponent will do, luck will indeed have a huge effect on the battle before I even start.
Then you have to consider the intense crapiness of a Wobbuffet vrs Wobbuffet Scenario..

This argument is somewhat torn to shreds by the thought that the old pokemon will one day be released, and therefore is a completely ballanced meta-game. I am not gonna dispute the fact that the oldies will become available eventually, but they may only be available in a different context.
It could be that they have actually used some foresight, and decided that trade-backs would have been a good thing in RBY, and designed the game to be as tradeback friendly as possible.. Hence they could be not allowed until all pokemon get a whole bunch better movesets and other advantages over the oldies.. This is quite an unlikely scenario, but it is quite possible that when the old pokemon are obtainable, there will be other huge meta-game altering changes, that make your assumption of how it will be completely inaccurate.

Have a nice day.

P.S. There is just one other thing I felt I needed to get off my chest. Luck is a part of RBY, but not as much as people seem to think it is.. People just use luck as an excuse to not put any more effort into developing their strategies. RBY will never be completely luck free, but by putting in a little effort you may find there is a lot of room for improvement.

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I M A Pokeprofessional
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 06:24 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cfalcon, you try typing with a broken keyboard, you will find it hard to not use typos, as well.

And, I do not care what has been released. This is my opinion, I d not care what anyone thinks of it, if I cared, then maybe I would not tell it like it is. Then again, if I did not say what I actually thought, I would be hypocritical.

Now, for the better news. 202 metagame is ALREADY dead! Suicune is being given out at the Japanese pokemon center! Thus, he is now attainable in the cart. So, looks like the 202 club already has a chink in its armor. Suicune will now be allowed in their battles, for, by thir standards, Suicune is now legal. If they say otherwise, they are just hypocritical.

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SDShamshel
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posted 12-10-2002 06:43 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh, the "202" club is not "dead" as you call it.

The 202 club is now simply the "203" club. And as more Pokemon are released LEGALLY, that is how many Pokemon will be accepted.

It's kind of funny how you just don't understand this concept. It is NOT about the metagame. It is NOT about balance. It is about what is currently the norm FOR THE GAME, and if 203 is the norm today, then it is the norm. If the other 183 are released tomorrow, 386 will be the norm.

After all, RSBot is called "Ruby/Sapphire Bot." Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire is not called "RSBot + 1 Player Game."

[ 12-10-2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: SDShamshel ]

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
gruco
I am Ian Garvey's lovechild.
Member # 1645

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posted 12-10-2002 07:08 PM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Flourine

quote:
If everyone cheat, cheating becomes the norm, and the norm is always right.
You do realize how absurd it is to say that "the norm is always right," don't you? If not, I'd be happy to provide a dozen or so counterexamples.

Hipmonlee-

quote:
The anti-386 argument about the 202 being the legitimate version of pokemon is irrellevant. If we are battling for fun, so we should be able to battle the way that is funnest
The assumption that the "right" way to battle is whatever way is the most fun isn't going to hold true for everyone. Many people battle to find a reasonable substitute for the actual 2 player mode on the cart.

And the reason one battles seems to be the fundamental principle guiding whichever of these two modes one prefers.

RBY with a pure-bug Beedrill would probably make the game more fun. But there is more to consider than stictly whether or not a certain aspect makes a game more fun.

IMAP

quote:
Now, for the better news. 202 metagame is ALREADY dead! Suicune is being given out at the Japanese pokemon center! Thus, he is now attainable in the cart. So, looks like the 202 club already has a chink in its armor. Suicune will now be allowed in their battles, for, by thir standards, Suicune is now legal. If they say otherwise, they are just hypocritical.
As Nobie said, it's not dead, it's just evolving, as most supporting that particular format expected it to. I'm surprised you don't realize that yet; it's been made very clear in several previous responses.
From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tghost
Farting Nudist
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posted 12-10-2002 07:22 PM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hehe, Tghost, you do know that you started this, you lit the flame that is slowly buring away the wax of the pokemon community.

Actually, I've personally been waiting a while to see which event would spark off something to further push Bots from the game.

Unless you plan on bot battling, just shut up, we do not care if you do not want 202 pokemon.

So, now it's all about the bot battling, is it?

202 whould be even more standard than rby, aren't we always complaing about the lack of originality from players? 386 would allow people to have better selection for their teams.

Having less Pokemon does not mean more standards. Besides, there are far more ways for each Pokemon to be useful, and you can have multiple standfards per Pokemon. Take Skarmory. Now, he's either got immunity to OHKOs, or immunity to evasion modifiers.

if you can't beat Legendaries, then obviously your underused trash isn't meant to compete in competetive games?

Interesting point. I'd like to direct you to a 1 v 1 between a Lugia of any moveset barring the use of Safegaurd, and a Exeggutor using Sleep Powder/Nightmare/Synthesis/Psychic. Now, which Pokemon is going to win most of the time, and which is going to be considered cheap?

deal with it dude. curselax was a good strategy for whoever thought it up, and it's a strat (just like "bellrest cheese" that imap thought up) that won't die in R/S...i think a lot of you 202'ers know that old GSC strats are way too good to die in RuSa...strats you guys hated because they were standard...like bellrest...snorlax and legendaries etc....

For whoever throught up of Curselax? Oh, yes, and everybody you used Curselax thought up of it on their own, too.

Heal Bell the move is dead in 202. The two Heal Bellers don't have any recovery moves. However, there are several characteristics that are curative of status conditions, and Safeguard is a TM, even if not learnt by a huge selection of Pokemon.

The legendaries are different in R/S. For them to be exceptionally high sttated you have to cheat, otherwise they generally end up with one or two legendary stats and several more average stats - it's how the new stat cap is a good thing (TM)

202 metagame is ALREADY dead! Suicune is being given out at the Japanese pokemon center! Thus, he is now attainable in the cart. So, looks like the 202 club already has a chink in its armor. Suicune will now be allowed in their battles, for, by thir standards, Suicune is now legal. If they say otherwise, they are just hypocritical.

Well, would you look at that, IMAP's getting all excited since some Japanese kids getting a Suicune from a give-away has somehow voided every single reason to play 202 and now we must come up with new arguments for 203. *Bzzft* Wrong. Infact, it just goes to show how the 202 argument works - we get as many Pokemon as we could obtain.

Besides, this puts in a new issue of "do we coulnt the Japanese give-aways?" - but it's surely a lesser issue than the 386's "Do we play with old moves too?" and "Do we play with the new stat cap" issues, which I still haven't heard anyone trying to answer.

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My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge

From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
EspeonNidoking
warcraft 3
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posted 12-10-2002 07:32 PM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Interesting point. I'd like to direct you to a 1 v 1 between a Lugia of any moveset barring the use of Safegaurd, and a Exeggutor using Sleep Powder/Nightmare/Synthesis/Psychic. Now, which Pokemon is going to win most of the time, and which is going to be considered cheap?
um lugia wins.

and i think you misunderstand IMAP's point...suicune got even better in RuSa, so he's (i think) pointing out that the metagame has changed...a water standard has already been introduced to 202.

and i think he is also showing that the pokecenter will still be active in RuSa. (you know, that building that gives out the pokemon that you guys think "ruined" GSC with unique movesets on pokemon).

the game is changing faster than we think, and for you 202 people, your game is already kinda changed. i think that was his point.

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
I M A Pokeprofessional
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posted 12-10-2002 07:33 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know what? I believe raikou and entei will also be released very soon into the "205 club". Then, every team will have suicune, wobbufet, raikou, alakazam, heracross, and (insert pokemon here).

Great metagame, geez.

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Tghost
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posted 12-10-2002 07:39 PM      Profile for Tghost   Author's Homepage   Email Tghost   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
um lugia wins.

Umm, Exeggutor pwns more than not.

Then, every team will have suicune, wobbufet, raikou, alakazam, heracross, and (insert pokemon here).

No. Because, the people who would do that are too busy metagame wanking with 386 Pokemon.

the game is changing faster than we think, and for you 202 people, your game is already kinda changed. i think that was his point.

Change is good, EN.


Great metagame, geez.


Stop trying to standard-up the 202 metagame and do it to the 386 metagame. kthxbye.

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My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge

From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
I M A Pokeprofessional
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posted 12-10-2002 07:42 PM      Profile for I M A Pokeprofessional   Email I M A Pokeprofessional   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am already in the process of its standardization [Razz] .

And...I am sorry for some of my posts. They were a bitout of line, and a bit too open, even if they were what I really thought.

I still will resent 20X pokemon metagames, but oh well, I guess we will have a choice when the bot comes out.

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EspeonNidoking
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posted 12-10-2002 07:44 PM      Profile for EspeonNidoking   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Umm, Exeggutor pwns more than not.

n/m read it you said wihout safeguard.

but lugia still wins. you're basing it too much on luck (assuming sleep will hit most of the time, and that the lugia will be asleep most of the time. =\)

and um if change is good, accept that the old pokemon should be allowed to play in the game because they change as well too.

it's a completely different game, this "new pokemon only" trash doesn't make sense to me.

[ 12-10-2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: EspeonNidoking ]

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"Yeah, my pubic hair has dollar signs trimmed in it!

$$Bling Bling$$" ~Jman

From: Summit,New Jersey, Tampa, Fl, and Rindge, NH | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDShamshel
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posted 12-10-2002 07:44 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the last time, it is NOT about the metagame. You can go on RSBot, and play 386 while hanging upside down, and hell, I'll join you! But please don't call it the "normal" mode of gameplay until it actually is!

ArrBeeWhy was pretty damned imbalanced even without Mewtwo. "LOOK AT ME I AM PSYCHIC I KICK ASS." But we played it because it was what was in the game.

From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged


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