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Author Topic: Semi-Pointless Discovery: Minimizing the Attack Stat
 Jolt135 Farting Nudist Member # 1974 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 07:56 AM                        It is a well-known practice on this board that if you have a Pokemon with no Physical attacks, you take a 1 Attack DV to reduce Confusion damage.I was wondering, though, if the Stat Exp. variable could also be reduced to decrease Attack even lower, and by how much?Obviously, it would be easy to Shark those values all the way down to 0. However, my goal was to find the lowest LEGAL value that Attack could have while all other stats were maxed.It was a problem that I was working on for two whole days, and even now it still has a slight bit of incompletion. Here is my research.To get the low Attack, you want to battle Pokemon whose base Attack stats are as low as possible, to limit the Stat Exp. received in Attack. For a start, before battling at all, I use 10 stat drugs of every variety except Protein, so the other Stat Exp. values start at 25600. To max out stats, those values must all be at least 16 (63˛) – 8 (63) + 2 = 63002.Best ratios of base stats in each stat vs. Attack:HP: 50, ChanseyDefense: 23, ShuckleSpecial A: 7.5, Blissey (Chansey close behind at 7.0)Special D: 23, ShuckleSpeed: 10, ChanseySo trying to find a solution using only Chanseys and Shuckles seems reasonable. There are five equations that must be considered to find the optimum solution:250a + 20b ≥ 374025a + 230b ≥ 3740235a + 5b ≥ 37402105a + 230b ≥ 3740250a + 10b ≥ 37402The optimum solution is the one involving integral values for a and b that produces the smallest value for 5a + 10b. After graphing everything out, I found the best solution. You would have to battle 140 Shuckles and 1049 Chanseys, giving Stat Exp. for Attack of 6645 (HEX 19F5). Plugging 6645 into int(((√ (V – 1) + 1) / 4), this value adds just 20 points to your Attack score. (Yes, I know that Blissey has a better Special-A-to-Attack ratio, and that this might improve it. However, ignoring the “int” command in the above equation, we get 20.6292..., and I doubt it would improve on that enough to knock it below 20.)The one piece of missing research is: Since there are only 5 areas to enter Stat Exp., how does that work with two Special stats? If Special Stat Exp. is transferred from Special A, the above solution is still best. If, however, it transfers from Special D, the third equation is removed. That equation was easily the most influential in jacking up the totals. Without it, the optimum solution is 149 Shuckles and 719 Chanseys, giving Attack Stat Exp. of 5085 (HEX 13DD). That reduces the value of int(((√ (V – 1) + 1) / 4) down to 18. With the third equation removed, EVERY other “(Stat) vs. Attack” ratio has either Shuckle or Chansey as most efficient, so this solution cannot be bettered.So I’m looking to know how Special stats transfer Stat Exp.: through SA or SD? If it is through SA, there may be some additional research involved. A TI-83 can’t do 3-D graphs, so I’d need someone else’s help to test a three-variable system, adding Blissey. Does that improve the solution for “5a + 10b + 10c” at all?In conclusion, you can legally do more than just a 1 Attack DV for reducing Attack. If you want the minimum that can be attained legally, right now I know you can reduce Attack’s Stat Exp. variables (DA37 and DA38) down at least as far as 19 F5 (for those of you who shark “only legal things,” I see nothing wrong with doing this). And if Special Stat Exp. is found to transfer from Special D, you can knock it down to 13 DD and shave off ANOTHER two points.But I doubt anyone will pay much attention to this, so I just wasted 2 days on a pointless discovery...*looks to see if Meowth has already posted something on this matter* From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Donald Bob the Builder Member # 1551 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 12:37 PM                  Stat Experience for Special is calculated from Special Attack. So I wish you luck in your research. From: In your girl's panties | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Jolt135 Farting Nudist Member # 1974 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 04:45 PM                        The problem is almost solved.So if you're sharking Attack to the minimum legally possible, just set DA37 to 19 and DA38 to F5 at least for now). "cmsnrub25" gets a 5.Now, the final piece: Does anyone care to test to see if adding Blissey to the mix will enable the Attack to go any lower (because of its higher Special-A-to-Attack ratio)? I don't have the tools to check a 3-D system of equations, but maybe someone else might--if anyone cares to try it, it's a 5-star rating to whoever figures it out![ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: Jolt135 ] From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
 MK is somewhat large. Member # 1445 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 05:45 PM                    Jolt135, I can't promise anything, but maybe sometime later I can try to give it a shot and see what I can find...P.S. I'm sure this is what you meant, but just so you know, the lowest DV you can have isn't one, it's zero. Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
 JohtoMaster Farting Nudist Member # 1023 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 06:04 PM                        But then you would not have Max HP, seeing as 0 is not an odd number.- - - - -Oh, and it's not "newbies", it's "proles". Nothing wrong with being new to the game if you're not stuck in the working classes. Hey, if we're going to be elitist, may as well go the whole hog and refer to the idiots as a lower social rank... - CatGonk at SoaG From: Valparaiso, IN, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
 MK is somewhat large. Member # 1445 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 06:12 PM                    Ahhh, I see...- - - - -Folks if you're like me, you're legs are all scarred up and itchy with elf bites. Ya know, ya tried the bug sprays, you left small poisonous cupcakes out for em, you called every exterminator and wizard in the phone book! But despite your attempts you just can't get rid of these darn elves. Folks you aren't dealing with a cockroach or a rat here, you're dealing with a small irritable magical man armed to the teeth with a thousand deadly jigs & dance steps. Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
 oporaca Farting Nudist Member # 922 Member Rated: posted 11-28-2001 07:48 PM                    Good work. I thought about this once, but I didn't bother. And, since I may be getting a GameShark soon (I definitely will if Nintendo has a tourney) and I prefer Special attacks to Physical, it becomes that much more valuable. Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
 Lark84 My skeleton is made of creamy nougat. Member # 1186 Member Rated: posted 11-29-2001 01:05 PM                    Jolt, I have a 3D-graphing program for my Mac. It's pretty basic, though. You enter a formula in the form of z=xy, to draw a graph. (Yes, you can divide and multiply and square root and whatever with the x and y)I'm not a 3D-graph expert, but if you could supply me with the expression necessary to draw the graph you want, then I'd be happy to help.I personally find this interesting -using the graphing calculator and a math program for something *useful*. (school doesn't count :P) Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
 DrFuko Farting Nudist Member # 2176 Member Rated: posted 11-30-2001 12:53 AM                     Wow..... this research is what makes you guys the ultimate pokerofessionals. Want to be part of MY pharmacology research team down here in Mexico? Of course, you´d have to give up a pleasurable life in the states, start speaking spanish and get used to eating lots of tacos.No? Well, you still get a 5, Jolt.And by the way, What´s so bad about injecting antibiotics directly into the veins of horses?- - - - -Noone expects.... THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!! From: Monterrey, Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Jolt135 Farting Nudist Member # 1974 Member Rated: posted 11-30-2001 07:38 AM                        Lark84: The equations I would need fulfilled are:250x + 20y + 255z ≥ 374025x + 230y + 10z ≥ 3740235x + 5y + 75z ≥ 37402105x + 230y + 140z ≥ 3740250x + 10y + 55z ≥ 37402with the object being the solution involving only integer values that gives the lowest possible value for 5x + 10y + 10z. x is obviously the number of Chanseys, y is Shuckles, and z is Blisseys. The current best solution, involving only Chansey and Shuckle, is 6645, but unless the new solution goes below 6242 (the breaking point between 19 and 20 in the Stat Exp. reverse equation), it will be of no additional value.Solving these equations for z gives:z ≥ (37402 – 250x – 20y) / 255z ≥ (37402 – 5x – 230y) / 10z ≥ (37402 – 35x – 5y) / 75z ≥ (37402 – 105x – 230y) / 140z ≥ (37402 – 50x – 10y) / 55Hope these help.*has already given you a 5 rating a while ago* From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Tghost Farting Nudist Member # 1418 Member Rated: posted 11-30-2001 11:51 PM                        Ahh, Jolt135, I think you've made a typo...if you battle only 1041 Chanseys and 140 Shuckles, you'll still make it over the threshold of max stats in all areas but attack (only by a small margin of 3 on Defense), leaving you with an attack of 6605, but that isn't enough to drop it down a level...- - - - -My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Jolt135 Farting Nudist Member # 1974 Member Rated: posted 12-01-2001 08:50 AM                        I think you need to re-read the first post. It says 1049 Chanseys, not 1041. That boosts up Attack SE by 8 * 5 = 40 points, which puts it at the 6645 I mentioned. From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Squeeeezie Farting Nudist Member # 1544 Member Rated: posted 12-01-2001 03:36 PM                    my level 100 blisseys and shuckles have attacks of 47. lowest genes with + no attack stat exp- - - - -"coo-kee coo-kee"--Krabby From: Martha's Vineyard | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Tghost Farting Nudist Member # 1418 Member Rated: posted 12-01-2001 05:20 PM                        quote:Originally posted by Jolt135:I think you need to re-read the first post. It says 1049 Chanseys, not 1041. That boosts up Attack SE by 8 * 5 = 40 points, which puts it at the 6645 I mentioned.I think you need to re-read my post, I'm saying you DON'T need to battle the extra 8 Chanseys, as with 1041, you would have already reached max effort value in all areas but attack, I'm saying you ONLY need 1041 Chanseys, which puts it at the 6605 I mentioned.- - - - -My brain went on vacation and left my pancreas in charge From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
 Lark84 My skeleton is made of creamy nougat. Member # 1186 Member Rated: posted 12-02-2001 06:02 AM                    quote:Originally posted by Jolt135:Lark84: The equations I would need fulfilled are:(equations posted by Jolt135)*tries to plug in first equation into graphing program**finds out program can't use the *-sign**replaces * with =**gets a nice, flat, tilted surface, exactly like the surface you get from z=x*I'm sorry my program couldn't use the *-sign, but as I said, it's very basic (it comes included with system software, guess that says pretty much about the capabilities of it ). I'm not sure if my completely flat graph is of any use to you... You get the exact same result with z=x, or z=y. Sorry...I have heard about a program for the TI 83+, which draws 3D-graphs like those on the 86. IIRC, it's included on the TI resource CD (which I unfortunately cannot use, it crashes my computer). It's a slow, memory eating program, but it gets the job done. Maybe that's a better option. Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
 Jolt135 Farting Nudist Member # 1974 Member Rated: posted 12-02-2001 07:53 AM                        EXTRA, EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT! LOOPHOLE IN THE FINDINGS!Even with Special SE transferring from Special A, and even without Blissey, I just remembered a loophole that allows the solution to improve from 19F5.Recall that in RBY, there was only one Special, and Chansey’s Base Stat there was still 105. However, in GSC, this gets shot all the way down to 35, making it take three times longer to max out Special Attack SE with Chansey.Therefore, why use GSC for that? After taking down the Shuckles (don’t worry about Shuckle’s 230 Special D Base Stat getting erased and only the 5 remaining; the 230 never gets added to SE in the first place) the theoretical solution would have the Pokemon traded back to RBY so it can get 105 Special SE off Chansey instead of 35! When the requisite number of Chanseys are taken down, trading back to GSC keeps the 105-per-Chansey Special SE.As far as the implications on the optimum solution, this makes Equation 3 much easier to fulfill. Because of this, fighting Blissey wouldn’t improve on anything (sorry, Lark84, for wasting your time). The best solution now is 149 Shuckles and 719 Chanseys, giving Attack SE of just 13DD (worth 18 stat points), which is exactly what it would be if Equation 3 had been removed altogether.If anyone else finds a potential loophole in the research, post it here.On a side note, I am now completely finished with Version 2 of my Pokemon utility spreadsheet, a combination Stat Finder/Damage Calculator/Team Weakness Finder that takes up just 169KB. It was set up on Works 6.0, but it should run on Excel. If you would like a copy, e-mail me. From: Woodbridge, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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