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Author Topic: Team ethics: G/S/C influences
Mick_Hale
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posted 04-11-2001 07:46 PM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's face it. A paracon Starmie with Twave, Confuse Ray, Surf, and Recover is virtually unstopable. There are other pokémon that learn kickass moves that can be used from G/S/C. There could be some excellent teams with these.

But is it ethical?

Some people don't have the advantage of G/S/C, which is true. But by the same bullshit, some people don't have extra gameboys, carts, and cords.

How unethical is it?

Pardon me as I don my anti-fire suit to avoid the incoming flames.

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"oh and remind me to add taping that show to the list of smart things you've done so far this year

now whered i put that post-it"
- Yavarice, attempting to pay me a compliment


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Pokegod
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posted 04-11-2001 09:22 PM      Profile for Pokegod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think its unethical to use G/S influences only if you don't discuss it with the other person first. Tournaments shouldn't allow them unless they are specifically G/S infulence tournaments because Stadium marks these moves as illegal.

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From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Felixthecat
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posted 04-12-2001 12:20 AM      Profile for Felixthecat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
of course it's not ethical. If I bring in a starmie against a nidoking, only to have it use amnesia on the switch... I'll usually just quit right there, unless I'm reaaaally bored. It's just lame. Use gsbot if you're inclined to use gs movesets.

felixthecat

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From: Portland, OR / Beloit, WI | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fish
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posted 04-12-2001 12:31 AM      Profile for Fish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By using G/S influnced moves, it is no longer RBY. It is now G/S. It's as simple as that.

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Quiet or I'll blow your throat up.


From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Crimzonite
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posted 04-12-2001 12:21 PM      Profile for Crimzonite     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fish151PKMN:
By using G/S influnced moves, it is no longer RBY. It is now G/S. It's as simple as that.



Good, I'll remember that when I use my Confuse Ray Starmie against you in RBY. ;p

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KeroKato
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posted 04-13-2001 04:43 AM      Profile for KeroKato   Author's Homepage   Email KeroKato   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Course its not ethical. One's using things that technically, in that game, is the same as using a Shark -- giving a Pokemon attacks it can't learn.
To compound this sin, more (and better) Pokemon can get Haze and other such attacks that were one time rare happenings, heavily shifting the balances.

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Visit Reality's End, the Home Page of Phantasy and the R.E. League

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From: I dunno, somewhere | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Windex
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posted 04-14-2001 01:01 PM      Profile for Windex   Email Windex   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Add that to the fact that moves such as Amnesia have been toned down in G/S.. A Nidoking simply isn't meant to have a move that can raise both his attackind and defending special.

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YES!!!


From: Ontario | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Atma
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posted 04-14-2001 02:44 PM      Profile for Atma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An RBY Nidoking with Amnesia is kinda like a Mewtwo who has STAB with Earthquake...

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"My name is Atma...
I am pure energy... and as ancient as the cosmos.
Forgotten in the river of time...
I've had an eternity to ponder the meaning of things...
And now I have an answer..."


From: Cinnabar Isle, Long Island, NY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 04-15-2001 02:21 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...and four different type weaknesses.

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"Sometimes politicians prefer to bury their heads in the sand and thereby expose another part of their anatomies for public viewing."
-- Bishop Fred Henry


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Lark84
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posted 04-16-2001 03:05 AM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's okay if you talk it over with the other person before you start the battle.

If I was battling someone who used GSC-composites and never told me about it, I would quit right away.

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"I remember somebody saying that measuring machine performance in bits is like measuring your penis in flowers." -IaZeye, enlightening us on the mystery of bits.


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cfalcon
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posted 04-17-2001 02:14 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I strongly disagree with you!

Did people cry about Surfing Fucking Pikachu? That shit was out of element and stupid, but it was legal as soon as Stadium shipped. Yellow also changed things around...

Stadium marking a move as illegal is nice and all, but if they wanted those moves to be illegal they could have prevented you from transferring a chromatic monster back to chromatic with a move it had to go to metallic to learn! Stadium marks them as illegal because metallics weren't released then, no other reason. It was current then, not now.

Clearly you need to make it obvious before hand, given the opinions here, but my monsters on my chromatic carts are likely to have metallic movesets on them, because the GAME LET ME DO IT!

I didn't need to shark them there, I didn't need a glitch, I didn't need a anything at all except to keep up with what Nintendo sayeth was legal to do.

Saying it's the same as the metallics isn't right. Aw, is NidoX too strong? Maybe you can Psychic it. Or Surf it, or Quake it, or do any of the stupid things that people do to silly poison types in chromatics! Hell, I think Nidoking needs a hell of a lot more than Amnesia to stand strong in prime cup...

You know, even Bug does double to it

Amnesia is broken in chromatics. We know that. One reason it sucks so much is that Mewtwo has it.

Comparing Nidoking to Mewtwo was stupid, and perhaps I'm going off on that note too much.

As far as "ethics" goes... Clearly, you need to check with the other guy to make sure you guys are playing Old Skule Chromatic or modern stuff. If it isn't ethical, the only valid arguement is that the last chromatic defined the legality of it... and that's on shaky ground. Arguements on someone not having the latest are all BS. Not everyone has more than one Gameboy and more than one copy of pokemon. Not everyone has as much time as some people. Not everyone has this, or that, or whatever. That isn't really valid, as if Nintendo didn't want you to be able to benefit from two GBs and two carts they wouldn't have made them able to interact!

Claiming that it is only for trade with friends is flawed, because that simply can not be demonstrated. I'm sure Nintendo has no arguement with it's rabid fans buying multiple copies of the same software for some advantages in game! Assuming that they didn't see that possibility for abuse is foolish- there's even evidence they took measure to prevent gross exploitation, as it takes awhile before you are able to trade away your starter (and then presumably restart).

Ultimately, my logic goes like this: pokemon is an evolving game, and the moveset limitations are modified everytime a new version ships. If this wasn't intended to be so, Nintendo would set up easily programmed measures to stop it- it wouldn't be hard at all to prevent backtrading of moves to the older things. I believe it is Nintendo's way of refreshing the metagame, and of making balance tweaks, be they successes or failures. If you don't like it, you can always communicate with your friends before hand.

It would have been easier to NOT allow trading with chromatics than to allow them. They already have a complicated algorithm set up, and have wacked ass monster translation tables set up and such.

Nintendo intended that you bring metallic things over to chromatics.

That is my only conclusion.

You don't have to LIKE that, of course. Hell, a lot of people just play prime cup with house rules against MewX. That isn't the intended game, but it's probably a better one. House rules should be stated before the match. I think we all agree on that.

White Cat, I want your opinion on this.

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-cfalcon

"Does the phrase "Hotmail Session Ended" sound vulgar to either of you?"
-pkthunder


From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Fish
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posted 04-17-2001 03:11 AM      Profile for Fish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pshaw, cfalcon.

The fact you wrote a lot doesn't mean a thing.

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Quiet or I'll blow your throat up.


From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 04-17-2001 09:10 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, but he did get his point across. I like his logic, but I still agree that you have to make sure that the other dude isn't working with just basic RBY stuff. I really want that paracon starmie now.

However, good points have been made on both sides. I think the strongest one made thus far was the surfing pikachu, though. Yes, it's true that PokéSta1 will highlight moves learned in GSC and not in RBY, but it still lets you play them. I remember having sharked up a completely fake team with moves that I pulled out of my ass and played them on stadium. Every move showed up in purple, but every move worked.

Love to see more of this, though. When the GBA Pokémon comes out, I'm sure there will be moves learned that could go all the way back to RBY, and I'll be using them the same, if the ethics debate continues.

I feel a clause coming on.

I just wanna know, cfalcon, what is the standard moveset for the Surfing Fucking Pikachu? I thought that Attract was GSC only.</bad joke>

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"oh and remind me to add taping that show to the list of smart things you've done so far this year

now whered i put that post-it"
- Yavarice, attempting to pay me a compliment


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 04-17-2001 08:33 PM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
White Cat, I want your opinion on this.

NO! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!!!!

Seriously...

The statement that "once you add Metallic moves, it's no longer Chromatics" is invalid. As cfalcon pointed out, by that logic you'd have to ban stuff like Surfing/Light Screen Raichu, Focus Energy Jolteon, etc. from non-Stadium/non-Yellow play.

I originally thought that G/S influences were fine, but what convinced me otherwise was a post that someone made in another thread. The original 151 Pokemon were given new moves for use under the balance of Metallics. Death Starmie is powerful, but it would be even moreso if it weren't for Safeguard and Heal Bell. Likewise, Amnesia isn't nearly as good now that it only raises Special Defense.

When these moves are transferred back to Chromatics, they become far more powerful than they were supposed to be. Granted, R/B/Y isn't terribly balanced to begin with, but this just makes it worse. This is why I don't think that G/S influences should be legal under the "default" rules (i.e. what you use if nothing was discussed beforehand, like most PBS battles).

However, I'd be interested to know how the R/B/Y equilibrium would be affected by G/S influences becoming common. If you want to use them on PBS, I'd suggest making an account called "YourName-GS_Influence" so the other guy knows that you're using them and can exit if he/she doesn't want to fight that way.

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"Sometimes politicians prefer to bury their heads in the sand and thereby expose another part of their anatomies for public viewing."
-- Bishop Fred Henry


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
gruco
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posted 04-18-2001 11:42 PM      Profile for gruco        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I actually recently got into this conversation when discussing an Amnesia Persian set at PD. Here's what I had to say about the whole tradeback ethics deal, minus the less relevant discussion of my Persian.

Essentially, I agree with cfalcon and think he makes a lot of strong points.

----

Think about the number of people who use Surfing Raichu on Gameboy. Is that "messing with history?" Even though Stadium came out after RB, I'd imagine most people would say no, and would back that up by saying the designers created him in order to make Raichu a more usable Pokemon, and knew fully well that he could and would be used in other versions.

As far as the "If Dodrio was meant to learn Haze then it would of learnt it!" argument is concerned, think about the number of people who trade GSC Pokemon back to RBY in order to tinker with the movesets. Death Starmie, along with many Blisseys and Porygon2s would not be possible without their own tradebacks of a sort. You can just as easily say, "If Starmie was meant to learn Thunder Wave in GS, they would have made it a TM" or somesuch. Granted, there is an important distinction, being that GS was made with the knowledge of what is possible in RBY, while RBY wasn't made with the knowledge of what is possible in GS. Even that, however, doesn't create a very strong case against tradebacks IMO. GS made serious efforts to balance Pokemon, and to more evenly distribute power. Power in RBY was not well distributed at all by comparison. Can't it be said that the tradebacks, many of which are Pokemon who learn Haze or Amnesia, was an attempt by the developers to redistribute power in RBY as well? There are two things you can do in RBY(besides using a Mewtwo of course), that are incredibly devastating - evasion, and Amnesia. Tradebacks offer many ways to counter that. Can anyone here honestly say that they think the developers threw in all those new movesets without considering the implications it would have on RBY?

Tradebacks are certainly contriversial, and I think they should, for that reason alone, be discussed before fighting. But they also offer counters to some of the cheaper moves in RBY, and that is definately not a bad thing.

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From: Clock Town | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lark84
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posted 04-19-2001 03:44 PM      Profile for Lark84     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really don't care what others think. I'll make a team with GS influenced pokémon, as a complement to my other, "normal" RBY team. Before a fight I'll tell them that I'll be using GS influenced movesets, if that's not OK with them I'll use my RBY team instead. Simple.
I *want* a Vileplume with Razor Leaf!

:edit:
Cfalcon, people know that surfing pika/raichu exist. They also know that if they´re playing against a yellow cart, there might be different movesets. But not all people know about the ways to breed moves onto RBY pokémon in GS, and trade them back to RBY. If you tell them before you start the battle, it's a lot easier both for you and them.

I wouldn't want to battle someone with a sharked up electrode w. spore, with them telling me first.

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"I remember somebody saying that measuring machine performance in bits is like measuring your penis in flowers." -IaZeye, enlightening us on the mystery of bits.

[This message has been edited by Lark84 (edited 04-19-2001).]


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Jman
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posted 04-19-2001 05:08 PM      Profile for Jman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Truthfully, I'm fine with G/S influences. Tournaments should specify the rules and such. Stadium was made before G/S, so of course its going to mark it "illegal". They didn't know the new moves that would be allowed.

If your allowed to tradeback pokemon to learn moves for G/S, why can't it be vice-versa?

Also, what's the difference with Yellow. Preatty much nothing. Each game is ment to try and change strategies, create new favorites, let people try new pokemon.

Its like an add-on or expansion pack. Sorta.

That is my 2.01382 cents on the subject.(Void in Rhode Island, and where prohibited by law.)

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Uno, Dos, Zesty!!
http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/home1.html


From: da burgh | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 04-20-2001 09:10 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, before my connection crashed, I had a lot of input from last night, and I don't wanna get into it again. Essentially, what I wanted to say is that while every argument has been excellent thus far for both sides, I still see more validity in the "Evolutionary Game" concept. I think we can stick with the ask first thing though.

Jman, you're going to need to pay provincial and federal taxes if I'm going to accept your 2.01382 cents. 7% federal, 8% provincial in Ontario.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 04-21-2001 05:34 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You forgot to account for the exchange rate, Mick.

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"Ash isn't too bright..."
-- Review of Pokemon: The Movie 3


From: Calgary | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dragonite21
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posted 04-21-2001 08:20 AM      Profile for Dragonite21     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hell, if people did use G/S tradebacks, it would, IMO, make the chromatic game more balanced than anything else.
So, more pokemon get Amnesia? There are more Hazers to deal with them. Bring out your Amnesia Kingler and I'll have my Hazing Gengar ready for it.
It also encourages sometimes more underused pokemon to be selected. If parafuse* Starmie starts becoming a popular lead, no prob, people begin to start with Jolteon/Electrode again.
In short, there is nothing that drastically changes the balance by tradebacks, and I think they should be made legal.

*Parafuse is a much nicer word than paracon.

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<KrbyRox> TAUROS'S CH HYPERBEAM ON A...
<KrbyRox> gastly


From: London, United Kingdom | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Squalldaman
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posted 04-21-2001 11:44 AM      Profile for Squalldaman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Persian
Slash
Bubblebeam
Amnesia
Hypnosis

Nuff said.

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Squalldaman
MrHoboto: Should I A ) Go play Pokesta 2, or b) Laugh at Greg.
Squalldaman: B! B! YOu laugh now! Now!
AutomatonOmega: Your disgusting sense of humor is far beyond that of a normal 13 year old. I'm impressed.


From: Chicago,IL,USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Windex
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posted 04-21-2001 05:00 PM      Profile for Windex   Email Windex   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As for the Surfing Raichu and Focusing Jolty, aren't Yellow and even Pokesta 1 considered part of Chromatics almost, if not just, as much as Red and Blue? Either way, I suppose I really have no problems against it providing I'm told before the match instead of having it thrown in my face well into the match.

On that note, I wonder if Earthquaking Gligar's will make there way onto metallic teams..

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YES!!!


From: Ontario | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 04-22-2001 12:45 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, White Cat, that depends on what country his currency is coming from. If it's from the states or Britain, we'll be rich! Richer than Bill Gates! Woo Hoo!

Anyhoo, I still forgot what I was gonna say. Windex, you pointed out that Yellow and PokéSta1 are a part of Chromatics, but there are some players that even refuse to use Surfing Pikachu or Focus Energy Eevee. Read the thread about the Intergalactic Champion.

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"oh and remind me to add taping that show to the list of smart things you've done so far this year

now whered i put that post-it"
- Yavarice, attempting to pay me a compliment


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 05-18-2001 09:22 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This debate is far from over, as is shown in MEWMAN's post. Don't let something like this die just yet, there's been a new development in the hell that I know.

Let's face it, if you're still posting in this forum, and you're coming up with new sets, then you haven't played chromatics enough. I, on the other hand, have exhausted almost all possibilities, and started working on GS influence teams. Lemme show you a great example from a previous thread.

quote:
Nidoking: Amnesia, Ice Beam, Earthquake, Rest
Alakazam: Thunderwave, Psychic, Barrier, Recover

This would actually be pretty hard to call. Nido's Ice Beam does an max of 55, 106 critical hit. 217 with full Amnesia, though. Quaking a Kazam would be doing 192 max, 372 Critical Hit. Fully Barriered, max of 49. Kazam damaging Nido with a regular Psychic, maxes at 342, Crithits at 662. With Amnesia up, it does a measly 90 damage. (Props to White Cat's Damage caclulator.)


Before I continue, I just thought I'd remind everyone how much of a moron the Great Dreamer is. Just read his reply about how Magic: The Gathering is severely unbalanced. At least there's variety, bitch, not just rampant psychics. Lessee, 10,000 cards instead of 151 pokemon and 165 moves. Do the math, bitch. M:TG is very much so more balanced, and that's what time does to an evolving game.

Actually, that leads really well into my next argument for metallic influences. Just as Magic decks evolve with every new set that comes out (Draco was a great addition to that spectrum), movesets and team stuff looks that much better with new moves. Saw that last thing with Amnesia Nidoking and Barrier Alakazam? Good shit, I say. Gives a whole new flavour to the game. It means that we have more legal moves to work with. Legal, of course, in the sense that they are attainable within the Pokémon gaming experience without the use of a Shark. (Hell, let's face it, I'm lazy, I'm gonna start sharking.)

The increased use of Amnesia, Haze, and any other move makes RBY more balanced instead of more unbalanced. It means that Poison Nido gets a big boost. It means that weak defense Alakazam gets a huge boost, and can start surviving bitches who want to blow it up. It means that when you're Double Teamed to a point where the opponent can't hit you at all, the opponent has the option of Hazing you back to a state where he can hit you, dealing easily with evasion problems and clauses. Yes, sleep is still devastating, but it does get easier. The only rael drawback I can see of metallic influence is that some will receive an even bigger advantage or disadvantage (though I have yet to see it, with the exception of the DeathStar). Mewtwo actually gets more beatable with the increasing number of Pokes that can learn Amnesia and Haze and anything else.

Give it a chance, I'll be posting metallic-influenced teams whenever I get time. That'll likely be in several years. Damn work.

This topic may be far from over, but let's keep it from being a "Mewtwo's Cheapness Revisited" topic, ok?

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"While in Miami I tried it out, and I assure you, it is not as good as boobs." - cfalcon on the GBA

[This message has been edited by Mick_Hale (edited 05-18-2001).]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Great Dreamer
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posted 05-18-2001 04:05 PM      Profile for The Great Dreamer   Email The Great Dreamer   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mick,
Talkin' trash behind my back, eh?
It's so like you, hope you accept my challenge to tear your ass appart this weekend and see if you can walk the walk...
"Before I continue, I just thought I'd remind everyone how much of a moron the Great Dreamer is. Just read his reply about how Magic: The Gathering is severely unbalanced. At least there's variety, bitch, not just rampant psychics."
Variety if you're collecting, assgoblin!
All the top 8 decks around the world ARE THE SAME and so are most of the rest.
You must not be a big Magic player, huh?
Well, guess what, chump, I was.
I travelled to other states in order to compete in the big events, Gran Prix, Pro-Tour, International Qualifiers, etc.
Plus a few tournaments every week.
So, don't talk to me about Magic 'cause you know shit. Even the proffesional player know, KNOW it is broken, so shut your pussy ass mouth, little girl, before you make more of a fool out of yourself.

"Lessee, 10,000 cards instead of 151 pokemon and 165 moves. Do the math, bitch. M:TG is very much so more balanced, and that's what time does to an evolving game."
No, YOU do the math, it's not ten-fuken-thousand, inbreed, it's approximately 5,000 cards!! And there no 151 pokemon, it is approximately 252, you miserable retard!!!
The only thing Magic has over Pokemon is that it is organized by the DCI, that is it.
If Pokemon was organized the same way it would be bigger than M:TG.

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"Come on guys, your mindless comments are making the Dreamer look coherent." -cfalcon


From: Las Vegas were everyone uses Mimic & Metronome! | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Fish
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posted 05-23-2001 01:35 AM      Profile for Fish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by White Cat:
The statement that "once you add Metallic moves, it's no longer Chromatics" is invalid. As cfalcon pointed out, by that logic you'd have to ban stuff like Surfing/Light Screen Raichu, Focus Energy Jolteon, etc. from non-Stadium/non-Yellow play.


Pokemon Yellow and Stadium 1 are part of the chromatics. When people play Pokemon, they don't say "Red only, boys. Take your damn Sandslash elsewhere." They play Chromatics as a whole. Gold and Silver are not Chromatics, it's an entirely different line.

From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
spunman
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posted 05-25-2001 04:37 PM      Profile for spunman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
mh: nice topic! i remember when it started, but didn't think i'd be coming back to reply.

i don't think nintendo made it possible to trade from g/s/c back to r/b/y for the sake of r/b/y. however, i do give them credit for expanding upon an already great game. i am of the opinion that r/b/y and stadium are a complete set, as it were, and g/s/c and stadium gs are a sequel set. i wasn't in the game early enough to remember people complaining about yellow movesets (if they did), but i sure see a lot of complaints about crystal! the biggest complaint now is that crystal is not out in english, so crystal movesets shouldn't be allowed. i managed to get a crystal cart through a pal at kadena, which i play more on the pc because i don't own my own gbc, but my g/s carts are english so i can't trade even with a borrowed one. so this appears to be how the majority wants it played on the web.

according to this rule, r/b/y and stadium can all be played together, and g/s and stadium 2 can be played together (crystal to be added when it comes out). but the two sets are totally separate from each other, imho. using r/b/y pokémon with g/s/c influence works under the premise that they've been traded to a foreign game with foreign pokémon and foreign attacks.

no one complains about trading back to r/b/y for your white knight poliwrath. i can only assume this is because the majority of g/s players are familiar with r/b/y, so seeing a poliwrath with fissure is nothing new, whereas many r/b/y players have yet to and may never dabble in g/s, so a dragonite with haze is more painful a surprise than an aerodactyl with rock slide. but one cannot deny the increased longetivity this provides for the r/b/y games, if people keep using them for actual gameplay and link battles.

therefore, i FEEL that playing r/b/y with g/s/c influences should be allowed, but anyone using g/s/c influences should make it known beforehand. actually, battles centered around g/s/c influence should be quite interesting. wouldn't it be cool to see a double elimination tournament with the three battles being chromatics, metallics, and chromatics with metallic influence for the tie breaker? and wasn't there something similar mentioned in karp park a while back?

actually, i don't think standard clauses and such should be assumed anywhere. too many people feel differently about them. if you're going to host any type of online battle system, i think you should at least have a page that explains the standard rules and have references to the page from the battle system. anyone wishing to deviate from the rules should say so beforehand. (i hate having to discuss the rules before EVERY BATTLE on the gsbot, but people who challenge with no warning are just ASKING to battle a team of dt-resting porygon2's!)

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"use a slowpoke tail and pretend it's a dildo. i do it all the time!" - onix12
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From: the middle | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
White Cat
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posted 05-28-2001 07:10 AM      Profile for White Cat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Aerodactyl can't learn Rock Slide in any version.

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OrientalNoodle
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posted 05-28-2001 09:41 AM      Profile for OrientalNoodle   Author's Homepage   Email OrientalNoodle   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
oh yes it can whitekat or what evr you are youre stopid LANCE AHS A AERODACKTTYL WITH ROCK SLIDER IN GOLD!!!1111111 AND IN RED!!!11111 do yor own resartch for a while!!!111

PS. MY MEWTO AND CHARIZARD OWNS U!!!!!!1

-this was a joke really-

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From: Hanko, -, Finland | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
spunman
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posted 05-30-2001 12:00 AM      Profile for spunman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
White Cat: Aerodactyl can't learn Rock Slide in any version.

read that part again.


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Mick_Hale
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posted 05-30-2001 09:24 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bitchin. TGD, thanks for reviving a thread that I was hoping wouldn't die. For this, I will not insult you for the rest of this post. Too bad it's already over.
From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jigglypuff
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posted 06-03-2001 09:29 PM      Profile for Jigglypuff   Email Jigglypuff   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
G/S/C influences are totally and absolutly 100% fair, as long as you opponent knows your using them.

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Felixthecat
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posted 06-05-2001 07:15 PM      Profile for Felixthecat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't care if they're "fair" or not. If I see a nidoking use amnesia, I just quit right there. And why the hell is amnesia on him even worth it? One FE works the same as a swords dance and an amnesia together.

RRRRR and if I ever see a gengar haze, I' throwing my monitor out the window.

Felix the Cat

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From: Portland, OR / Beloit, WI | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 06-07-2001 09:27 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't believe it; I agree with Jigglypuff!

Nice topic.

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"Special effects made by Industrial Light and Morons"
-MST3K


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ultam
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posted 06-07-2001 11:32 PM      Profile for Ultam   Author's Homepage   Email Ultam   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't use GS tradebacks due to the fact that I am lazy and I don't want to take the time and/or effort to do it.

No really i don't do it because I believe that it is kind of cheap. I don't like battling people that do it, so I wouldn't want to do it to people.

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SDShamshel
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posted 06-10-2001 06:45 PM      Profile for SDShamshel   Email SDShamshel   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yellow influences were meant to balance the game further. So were Stadium prizes.

G/S tradebacks, however, weren't. They were meant mainly for that move deletion option and giving your G/S Pokemon RBY TM's. G/S Tradebacks don't balance the game out, even if both sides use them.

Yellow is similar to a Patch for Brood War. Same basic game, changes a few things here and there. G/S is similar to a whole new game. What if they decided to make a Starcraft sequel where the Ultralisk has 10 armor and a 15 damage air attack? Then they decided to put it into the original Starcraft or Brood War as part of a patch. It would throw off the balance horribly.

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From: Tokyo-3 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 06-19-2001 09:16 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Damn, let's keep this going. It's not going away any time soon. I'm still working on finding some time to research this further, after which I'll post my ideas and results. Let me get my shark back from Yavarice and get one of each version (metallics, chromatics, and stadiums), I can start with heavy research. Unless someone wants to save my lazy ass some time. Just remember, Nidoking's max special goes up to 992 with full amnesia and Alakazam's defense goes up to 752 with full barrier. Think about the ways it can survive a 'sploding Eggy.

Further research to follow, or you guys can help me out if you're interested.

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TGD: Mah 'puter crashed again!
Mr. K: Have you got one of those new machines that chokes when you try to shove illogical things into it?
Zerot: Thing is we don't know what sort of things his shoved into his computer.
TGD: Oh, shut up...


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Zerot
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posted 06-19-2001 09:24 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The way I see it, it adds STRATEGY! RBY today is barely anything more than the same standards used over and over, with few exeptions. With the new movesets, it adds another demension to the game that was previously unexplored. It also helps beating the cheap-meter down on our Mewtwo's. The sets DO NOT make pokemon invincible, as people have pointed out. Nidoking will probably never beat a Mewtwo, unless the other trainer is an utter retard. Even with Amnesia Nidoking can't do a whole lot to Mewtwo, other than lasting two-or-three turns more, not including the powerup time.

If you want to battle using composites on PBS, you may want to ask.

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"Special effects made by Industrial Light and Morons"
-MST3K

"He has a small black and white color television."
-Ch. 13, about McVeigh


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Felixthecat
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posted 06-19-2001 08:15 PM      Profile for Felixthecat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't use mewtwo and I sure as hell don't use no damn nidogod! Amnesia is not something that should be composited! Think about it The reason more pokemon get it in gsc is because it sucks there. Nidoking would not get it if it did what it does in rby. use common sense here. It gets focus energy. Is that just not good enough for you? You're from america, aren't you? I can tell. you're the people who cocaine justwasn't good enough for, so you invented crack. And you couldn't get the beer out of the can fast enough, so you invented the wide-mouthed can and the beer-bong! And now you're telling me Focus energy isn't enough, and amnesia is more than fair because in gsc it's legal? What's next, baton passing electrodes!?

Felix the Cat... is getting less and less coherent as time goes on.

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From: Portland, OR / Beloit, WI | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 06-20-2001 06:34 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Felixthecat:
I don't use mewtwo and I sure as hell don't use no damn nidogod!
OK... Why is he now called Nidogod?


Amnesia is not something that should be composited! Think about it The reason more pokemon get it in gsc is because it sucks there.
Those are just opinions that you are trying to pass as facts.


Nidoking would not get it if it did what it does in rby. use common sense here.
I dunno about THAT... The fact is, the creators of Pokemon obviously saw a weakness in a Pokemon, and decided to help fix that by adding some moves that may help it. They gave Nidoking that move because they knew people would trade back. Unless they're morons.


It gets focus energy. Is that just not good enough for you?
Nope. I like Nidoking. Amnesia makes sure he can down a few monsters. Besides, I don't care much for Focus Energy.

You're from america, aren't you? I can tell. you're the people who cocaine justwasn't good enough for, so you invented crack. And you couldn't get the beer out of the can fast enough, so you invented the wide-mouthed can and the beer-bong!
Simmer down, sailor.


And now you're telling me Focus energy isn't enough, and amnesia is more than fair because in gsc it's legal?
Correct. Once again the moves DO NOT MAKE THEM IMMORTAL.

What's next, baton passing electrodes!?
Well, uh, batton pass can't be in RBY.

[/B]


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"Special effects made by Industrial Light and Morons"
-MST3K

"He has a small black and white color television."
-Ch. 13, about McVeigh

[This message has been edited by Zerot (edited 06-20-2001).]


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
MK
is somewhat large.
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posted 06-26-2001 11:20 PM      Profile for MK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This may be my opinion:

Look at it this way. I have Stadium G/S. If a friend came over, we would battle on THAT. Think of it this way. Stadium RBY is outta date. And, G/S Pokémon can be sent back to a RBY catridge, therefore it is legal. Is it Ethnical? That's maybe for someone else to call, but it is legal, and I'd do it.
-MK


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Zerot
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posted 06-27-2001 07:01 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MK:
Is it Ethnical?


Uh...

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"At least you didn't ruin your marrage like your last one, and say 'You ruined my life, Bitch!' instead of 'Please pass the potatos.'
-Bob, from the Bob and Tom Show


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Mr. K
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posted 06-27-2001 07:34 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My Wiggly is Mexican.
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 06-27-2001 03:02 PM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. K:
My Wiggly is Mexican.


That is mine.


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"At least you didn't ruin your marrage like your last one, and say 'You ruined my life, Bitch!' instead of 'Please pass the potatos.'
-Bob, from the Bob and Tom Show

"My Wiggly is Mexican."
-Mr. K

[This message has been edited by Zerot (edited 06-27-2001).]


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 07-11-2001 12:04 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I will play a Raise Dead on this topic. Wait, this isn't Magic.....

------------------
TGD: Mah 'puter crashed again!
Mr. K: Have you got one of those new machines that chokes when you try to shove illogical things into it?
Zerot: Thing is we don't know what sort of things his shoved into his computer.
TGD: Oh, shut up...


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 07-11-2001 06:32 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank ya sir.
Hopefully It won't die again.

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Zerot,
...yeah, while I'm at it I should also cave in yer face so you can't stop spewing all that shit from your mouth, maggot boy...

-TGD

"Zerot kicks ass."
-Automaton


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 07-23-2001 12:43 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is my official stance:

If you use a cheat device, or a glitch, to get a pokemon to get a move it cannot learn, it is illegal/cheating.

However, with tradebacks, you do not use
1.Cheat Devices
2.Glitches.
So, I consider it legal, unless someone tells me beforehand about a clause on them.

Now, stay ALIVE!

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<timmy> WHaT YOU HAVe STELLLLLUGAIA!!!!! HOw DID YOU GeT HIM!


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 07-23-2001 01:06 AM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahh, ahh, ahh, ahh, stayin' alive, stayin' alive....
Ahh, ahh, ahh, ahh, stayin' alive, stayin' alive....
Ahh, ahh, ahh, ahh, stayin' alIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIyeahaaaiiiiiiiive,

Thank you Zerot.

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"k mouth, please don't try the 'I'm right, you're wrong, stop arguing more coherently than me or I'll wet my pants' approach. TGD has already perfected it by himself." - Psybro


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zerot
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posted 07-23-2001 01:22 AM      Profile for Zerot   Author's Homepage   Email Zerot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Welcome.

This is one of my favorite topics.

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<timmy> WHaT YOU HAVe STELLLLLUGAIA!!!!! HOw DID YOU GeT HIM!


From: Lizton, Indiana | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mick_Hale
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posted 07-26-2001 12:17 PM      Profile for Mick_Hale   Email Mick_Hale   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bitchin. Now maybe I'll get a second or two to find some other really good GSC tradebacks aside from the Nido/Zam example. Perhaps someone else could compile a list of GSC tradebacks and look at different movesets from there.

And haze being more common in RBY can practically do away with the Evasion Clause, and in some cases, the Sleep Clause.

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"k mouth, please don't try the 'I'm right, you're wrong, stop arguing more coherently than me or I'll wet my pants' approach. TGD has already perfected it by himself." - Psybro


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged


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