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Author Topic: All religion should be banned.
IceHawk78
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posted 10-22-2003 03:40 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes.

Every form of religion is unconstitutional. From now on, all forms of religion, organized or not, are illegal. This *does* include atheism and agnosticism.

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Mr.E
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posted 10-22-2003 04:14 PM      Profile for Mr.E     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Atheism and agnosticism is more the lack of religion than the presence of one.

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MickHale18: nevermind, I'll pull out for a second
MickHale18: *pulls out finger*

From: Munchkin Land, Oz | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Brayze
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posted 10-22-2003 04:19 PM      Profile for Brayze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, religion or any type of dogmatic thought is a good thing. Providing the populace with easy answers to complex questions stops them from thinking too much. If everybody thought all the time NOTHING WOULD EVER GET DONE, because nobody would agree on anything, social structure would fall apart, etc etc bad bad bad fucky fucky fuckity

So give us easy answers for those who don't give enough of a shit to care, as long as people who want to look deeper into issues are still allowed to do so.

The world works pretty good for me. I don't want to change anything, I just like getting laid and playing games.

Keep up the good work, god!

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Jman
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posted 10-22-2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Jman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agnostics were mentioned in this topic. Woot.
From: da burgh | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mentar the Malady Monkey
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posted 10-22-2003 06:16 PM      Profile for Mentar the Malady Monkey   Email Mentar the Malady Monkey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agnosticism isn't a religion.

Atheism is debatable.

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WHAT.

From: Pandemonium, HL, Hades | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Face
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posted 10-22-2003 06:38 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok.

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Weezing!

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Miko
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posted 10-22-2003 06:56 PM      Profile for Miko     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[Confused]

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Goo goo ka choo

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Rolken
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posted 10-22-2003 08:26 PM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
posting in acknowledgment of the utter gayness of this topic
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IceHawk78
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posted 10-22-2003 10:32 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.E:
Atheism and agnosticism is more the lack of religion than the presence of one.

Atheism is the belief in no spiritual beings/forces, etc.

Agnosticism is the belief in something you are either too lazy or too busy to figure out.

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Kazuki
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posted 10-22-2003 11:21 PM      Profile for Kazuki     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IceHawk78:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.E:
Atheism and agnosticism is more the lack of religion than the presence of one.

Atheism is the belief in no spiritual beings/forces, etc.

Agnosticism is the belief in something you are either too lazy or too busy to figure out.

Well played IceHawk, well played...

- - - - -
" When we get outta the 80's and into the 90's, we'll make the 60's look like the 50's. "

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Dweedle
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posted 10-22-2003 11:51 PM      Profile for Dweedle   Email Dweedle   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
what if you don't believe in religion

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the only way to get pass this will be to commit suicune

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cfalcon
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posted 10-23-2003 12:01 AM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dogs are agnostics.

It isn't a religion.

Is atheism?

K and I have had this discussion. I played devil's advocate, because, well, I'm kinda evil.

Also because he truly *doesn't* believe atheism is a religion, and I'm not sure either way.

He's basically brought up the point that atheism is different, and probably right- if for no other reason than every group of people in the world made up their own Holy Smokestacks and Big Evil In The Ground, and these things all crashI MEANT TO WRITE "CLASH" I THINK I'M TURNING JAPANESE I THINK I'M TURNING JAPANESE I REALLY THINK SO. (He didn't say this in ignorance: he knows that logically, this could just as easily point to there being *some* God that everyone got a little piece of, or has variable degrees of correctness about (meaning that some religion could still be totally right)... we weren't debating, just discussing)

Anyway, I pointed out that his arguement of "ours is different" is actually the same arguement I've heard from EVERY religion, and so all he's really saying is "no, we're not a religion, we're THE TRUE religion".

I *think* atheism classifies as a religion, because it is a belief in a supernatural system: namely that none exists. I'm not 100% certain on this, and both K and Toby will be able to be able to make this topic way quality.

Noteably, they will start out by pointing out that my previous statement is akin to saying "Not believing that 5 = 3 is a 5=3belief, because you have a belief about 5 = 3." No one can argue that atheism consists of a set of religious opinions, but is it a religion?

Some people treat it as a religion (most famously with that thing about the Big Bang), and the conservative Christian guy at work mentioned once (not on this topic) that they atheists begin with just as big of a leap of faith as people with religions do (actually, he didn't phrase it that well, but that's what he meant).

The party line with the Baptists seems to be that the secular humanists are out to expunge religion from as many places as possible (and by extension, they stand in opposition to this de-godifying- sometimes they claim to be defending freedom of religion, and some of those times (though rarely) they aren't just blowing smoke).

Anyway, if we could (and we can't), should all religion be banned?

No.

Because people want religion. Not everyone, and not in the same amounts. Banning religion is like banning "left". Hell, there's a part of your brain that might exist solely to *GIVE YOU* religion. There are other reasons, and if this topic is interesting we can discuss them too.

The case for expunging religion is easy (and, honestly, it seems likely that humanity will become less and less religious over time: religion used to encompass medicine, writing, spirituality, the afterlife, morality, astronomy, mathematics, and natural distasters, along with superstitions- now, religion pretty much is relegated to the nonphysical realm. The religions of a thousand years ago are all long dead. What's left are a bunch of religions that have adapted to the loss of ignorance and largely retreated to areas where science will never intrude upon). Religions keep people at odds, prolonging conflicts. Sometimes they have even started them. Religious people tend to back things like "More pain and cancer" for some convoluted reasons. It wasn't atheists with no belief in an afterlife reshaping the NY skyline with jet brushes.

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LanderZRPG
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posted 10-23-2003 01:26 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't Atheism also used as the term to define that one doesn't firmly believe in any of the spiritual beliefs of other religions, yet they may have their own ideas of spirituality and such?

Like, maybe you don't believe in God, but believe in going to a happy place after dying, or some such?

I'm unsure of where the border-line is: Atheism isn't necessarily the belief that _nothing_ is out there, is it? I've never learned the 'official' meaning of the term, I guess.

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From what we've learned, it seems like you'd prefer girls dressed in ant costumes or something... -Kazuki (Regarding tl;dr)

Owner of the Power Advantage DBZ RPG
(www.poweradvantage.net)

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Rolken
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posted 10-23-2003 01:48 AM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Icy: Agnosticism is the belief in something you are either too lazy or too busy to figure out.

...What? "Ok, I don't know what's out there, but whatever it is I believe in it"? Come on, don't be silly. Also Kazuki, are you a member of the IceHawk posse?

cfalcon: I THINK I'M TURNING JAPANESE I THINK I'M TURNING JAPANESE I REALLY THINK SO

o rly [Wink]

The whole debate over whether atheism is a religion seems academic to me; it is in some ways and it isn't in others, (skip this part if you're a hardliner Jew) and trying to define it one way or the other is like asking whether the Israelis or the Palestinians are to blame for all the nonsense going on over there. (OK for hardliner Jews) They're more similar than most atheists care to admit to themselves, though the atheistic viewpoint stands apart in being the position gravitated towards as our knowledge of the Universe increases. The real question is whether that's evidence of the final destination or if it's just a minor bump on the path to final awareness - and science has certainly given us false forecasts before, as when most everyone in the latter 19th century was convinced we pretty much had things figured out.

If you were really really smart and lived in an ant farm, you'd probably conclude that the more you grew to understand of your surroundings, the more you learned the truth of the Great Waterer and Feeder.

Upon rereading, I strayed more from the original topic as I went on. Oh well.

also this thread is now much less gay

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[insert sig here]

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ceoalex316
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posted 10-23-2003 02:38 AM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I always thought religion was the belief of a supreme being. Since Atheism is the belief of no such being then it isn't a religion. In other words Atheism is a belief, not all beliefs are considered your religion.

- - - - -
Maximum Penetration Industries.

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Ikuse
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posted 10-23-2003 02:44 AM      Profile for Ikuse   Author's Homepage   Email Ikuse   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Logicology.
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LanderZRPG
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posted 10-23-2003 10:05 AM      Profile for LanderZRPG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
-Ology = study of.

Logic+ology = study of logic.

Get a better word. Now.

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From what we've learned, it seems like you'd prefer girls dressed in ant costumes or something... -Kazuki (Regarding tl;dr)

Owner of the Power Advantage DBZ RPG
(www.poweradvantage.net)

From: Penticton, BC, Canada | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kazuki
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posted 10-23-2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Kazuki     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also Kazuki, are you a member of the IceHawk posse?
No, I don't know who IceHawk is, or knew he even had a posse.

- - - - -
" When we get outta the 80's and into the 90's, we'll make the 60's look like the 50's. "

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Rolken
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posted 10-23-2003 10:59 AM      Profile for Rolken   Author's Homepage   Email Rolken   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, OK. I guess you're just very easily persuaded then.

Agreed on "Logicology" being a stupid word.

ceoalex316: I always thought religion was the belief of a supreme being. Since Atheism is the belief of no such being then it isn't a religion. In other words Atheism is a belief, not all beliefs are considered your religion.

There are many religions in which a supreme deity or deities isn't the focal point at all, ie Buddhism. And there're some that're kinda murky, like Confucianism. There really is a world outside of the Judeo-Christian God-fearing perspective. Where do you draw the line?

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[insert sig here]

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Psybro
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posted 10-23-2003 11:39 AM      Profile for Psybro   Email Psybro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IceHawk78:
Every form of religion is unconstitutional.

Wrong, banning it is.

For people that take such pride in your constitution, a hell of a lot of the American population know jackshit about it.

edit: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

[ 10-23-2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Psybro ]

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IceHawk78
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posted 10-23-2003 12:14 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In reverse, now!

quote:
Wrong, banning it is.

For people that take such pride in your constitution, a hell of a lot of the American population know jackshit about it.

WRONG STUPID MOTHERFUCKER WRONG WRONG WRONG

Have you taken a look at my constitution lately? I changed it. I scribbled out the whole part about ammending it, then at then end, I took pen to the paper, and wrote:

"Only Nicholas [last names omitted] may edit this document, and from now on, all previous ammendments are null and void, and all religions (forms of belief) are illegal."

I'll get back to Rolkens after lunch, you unconstitutional manwhore.

From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wintermute
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posted 10-23-2003 01:07 PM      Profile for Wintermute   Author's Homepage   Email Wintermute   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where to go in this thread... Rolken's first post was highly insightful. I would've smoked it already, but the problem with deleting shitty threads in the Park is where do you stop.

Icy your posts have been mostly shit and mostly annoying lately. The fuck is wrong with you kid. Stop it. Whether or not the topic starter was a complete troll, it seems to have turned into a discussion, but quit trolling it if that was your original intent.

Alex's post is just too damn sensible, I guess, to make an impression on some of you morons.

Atheism isn't a religion. Look up the definition of religion. The big bang, if it happened, was not a supernatural event. That is the whole point. Yes, atheists take many things on faith, everyone does. Unfortunately that's not the definition of a religion.

No one can argue that atheism consists of a set of religious opinions

Yes I can. Atheism has to do with belief about the existence of god. This is not the same as a set of beliefs about religion, though they're likely to be correlated. EVEN IF it were fair to say that atheism consists of a set of opinions about religion, it's sophistry to claim that atheism is a set of religious opinions or beliefs. Sometimes adjective-izing in that way is appropriate and harmless, sometimes it's misleading. You have to discriminate. Beliefs about politics are political opinions, but beliefs about extremism are not extremist opinions. Etc. In this case I think it's misleading, which becomes clear if you review the definition of religion.

but is it a religion?

That would be a "no," then.

Look, as always meaning is determined by usage, and sometimes people may talk about atheism as though it were a religion. Someday it may even be correct - majority rules, in the end. But at present, they shouldn't.

Finally, a repost of my previous effort to clarify thinking and talking about agnosticism. Sorry for the tl;dr, but I'm doing two-in-one here.
#####
There are different versions of both atheism and agnosticism that we might call "strong" and "weak."

Weak agnosticism: You don't know whether there's a god.
Strong agnosticism: You think it's impossible to know whether there's a god.
Weak atheism: You don't believe that god exists.
Strong atheism: You believe that god doesn't exist.

In epistemology a pretty common definition of "knowledge" is a true & justified belief about something. You can talk about "belief" as a mental entity, but I think you don't go too far wrong by saying that someone believes something if he/she acts as if it is true.

Anyway, a not-widely understood consequence of all this is that you can actually be agnostic while also being either a theist or an atheist. From what I can tell, a large majority of people who claim to be "agnostic" are trying to distance themselves from atheism, yet are really double-weak agnostic atheists. That is, they:

- don't believe that god exists
- don't actively believe that he doesn't exist
- don't know whether god exists (that is, even if they believed that god exists, they don't think that this belief would be justified)
- wouldn't say it's impossible to know whether god exists.

By taking this position they're distancing themselves from strong atheism, though. And many people who claim to be theists, and even who claim to be Christians, are really weak agnostic theists. That is, they wouldn't say that they have knowledge of god's existence (their belief is not justified by evidence), but they believe in it anyway.

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IceHawk78
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posted 10-23-2003 01:26 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agreed on "Logicology" being a stupid word.

Not really a stupid word, just stupid that it was used as a religion. If you believe in strong logicology, then it's logicologism.

I always thought religion was the belief of a supreme being. Since Atheism is the belief of no such being then it isn't a religion.

Wrong. Religion is a belief held, generally one that affects your decisions (although in american society, it generally isn't so). So even according to your definition of atheism, Atheism would be a religion.

what if you don't believe in religion

Then you're cool. I didn't say that you weren't allowed to not believe in anything, just that you aren't allowed to believe in it.

Isn't Atheism also used as the term to define that one doesn't firmly believe in any of the spiritual beliefs of other religions, yet they may have their own ideas of spirituality and such?

Like, maybe you don't believe in God, but believe in going to a happy place after dying, or some such?

I'm unsure of where the border-line is: Atheism isn't necessarily the belief that _nothing_ is out there, is it? I've never learned the 'official' meaning of the term, I guess.


Wrong. Atheism is the belief that there are no supernatural forces anywhere. Having your own beliefs would be [insert your name here]ism. So if your name was Mr. J, then your beliefs would be called "Mr. Jism".

"Ok, I don't know what's out there, but whatever it is I believe in it"? Come on, don't be silly.

I'm not, you are, you unconstitutional asshat. Go back to your pre-historic culture. Mormon.

Anyhow, that's not what I was saying, and you know it. To put it in your terms, agnosticism would be "I don't know what is out there, but I believe something is." Agnosticism would actually be rather close to LanderZRPGism's definition of atheism.

also this thread is now much less gay

Actual debates generally are. Or discussions, or whatever the fuck you want to call this.

[edit]
strong/weak atheism/agnosticism

This has already been said here, at some time. Can't remember when, but I distinctly remember the idea of strong/weak atheism/agnosticism.

[ 10-23-2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: IceHawk78 ]

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Kazuki
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posted 10-23-2003 01:37 PM      Profile for Kazuki     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 


I worship the Red Skull, so I beleive in " redskullism ".

[ 10-23-2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Kazuki ]

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" When we get outta the 80's and into the 90's, we'll make the 60's look like the 50's. "

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Psybro
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posted 10-23-2003 03:03 PM      Profile for Psybro   Email Psybro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IceHawk78:
blah blah blah

suck a dick
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White Cat
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See book.
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Psybro
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posted 10-23-2003 03:16 PM      Profile for Psybro   Email Psybro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
whilst I'm at it a belief system is not neccessarily a religion and your big point is just bartering over semantics
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Mr.E
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posted 10-23-2003 04:15 PM      Profile for Mr.E     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And he's not even doing a good job at it.

- - - - -
MickHale18: nevermind, I'll pull out for a second
MickHale18: *pulls out finger*

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Jman
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posted 10-23-2003 04:50 PM      Profile for Jman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Religion is unconstitutional. Uh, ok.

Obviously, the whole freedom of religion deal isn't in effect.

Everyone has to have a religion. If you have no religion, that is your religion. Athiests' religion is the lack of one. Or at least an organised one.

However, agnostics have got it right.

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Psybro
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posted 10-23-2003 06:57 PM      Profile for Psybro   Email Psybro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jman:
Religion is unconstitutional. Uh, ok.

Obviously, the whole freedom of religion deal isn't in effect.

Apparently this is a hypothetical situation which he didn't bother to mark as hypothetical by actually making his initial post in the slightest bit satirical.
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Mentar the Malady Monkey
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posted 10-23-2003 07:25 PM      Profile for Mentar the Malady Monkey   Email Mentar the Malady Monkey   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fuck atheism being a religion, you can argue it either way.

Agnosticism, the way I see it, merely represents a measure of uncertainty as to the existence of god. You can be Christian and be agnostic, or you can be atheist and also be agnostic. It doesn't qualify as a set of beliefs in itself.

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WHAT.

From: Pandemonium, HL, Hades | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
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posted 10-23-2003 07:28 PM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IceHawk78:
Wrong. Religion is a belief held, generally one that affects your decisions (although in american society, it generally isn't so)

So my believe that marijuana should be legal is my religious belief?

quote:
Originally posted by IceHawk78:
So even according to your definition of atheism, Atheism would be a religion.

I'm positive you aren't being serious through out this whole topic and are out to fuck with people.

Or, you believe what you posted originally and after a few points realize that it was bullshit. Though you still continue to defend it, because you’re naturally stubborn.

- - - - -
Maximum Penetration Industries.

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cfalcon
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posted 10-23-2003 07:36 PM      Profile for cfalcon   Email cfalcon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wintermute has an excellent post here, which was sort of expected.

I should have written "opinions concerning religion" instead of "religious opinions".

On the "is it a religion" debate, we run into a problem, not from a philosophical, but from a US-legal standpoint: if atheism is not a religion, then it deserves no constitutional protection.

This was the interpretation for awhile, I believe (I'm not sure, but the "atheists may not testify in court or hold office" seems to be towing that line).

If atheism is not protected by the constitution, then you could very well put "In God(s) we trust" on the currency and not be be breaking any rules- right? You are not, in this case, making a statement regarding religion- "God" can be taken to be a neutral term, but often isn't, but "Gods" can apply to pretty much everything.

Presumably, that could fall through- I think a UFO cult could qualify as a religion, right? And they might not believe in a God or Gods.... hmm... I dunno.

The strong/weak/agnosticism/atheism information is excellent.

Oh, something that K and I discussed- what, exactly, is an "atheist"? The definition I usually run with is something along the lines of "denies any form of nonphysical forces at work in the world"- meaning no gods, no spirits, no magic, no whatevers. The word technically would break down into A and Theism, meaning no belief in God- but wouldn't buddhists then qualify?

From: 39°45' N, 104°52' W | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Twinkle
I'm feeling fat and sassy~!
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posted 10-23-2003 10:04 PM      Profile for Twinkle        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This makes a lot of sense to me.

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From: Brinstar | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ceoalex316
Time for the flaming leprosy party
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posted 10-23-2003 11:14 PM      Profile for ceoalex316     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cfalcon:
Presumably, that could fall through- I think a UFO cult could qualify as a religion, right? And they might not believe in a God or Gods.... hmm... I dunno.

You seem to confuse religion and beliefs. First draw a distinct line between the two and then proceed with your arguments.
From: NYC | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ikuse
Farting Nudist
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posted 10-23-2003 11:51 PM      Profile for Ikuse   Author's Homepage   Email Ikuse   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Logicology sounds a hell of a lot better than Logicism or Logicanity or whatever the hell that was, Logicolologism? What the fuck.
From: In my pants. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mewone
I have a pokemon as my username. I mean, come on.
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posted 10-25-2003 01:01 AM      Profile for Mewone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Constitutions, governments and human beings in general just plain suck, in my opinion.
From: Azure Heights | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 10-25-2003 03:55 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Atheism is a religion in the same way that not punching yourself in the scrotum is punching yourself in the scrotum.
From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
NOBODY IMPORTANT
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posted 07-07-2010 01:23 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, seven years later, I found this.

Sorry for being a retard back then, guys. Disregard everything prior - I apparently sucked cocks.

From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 07-08-2010 09:58 AM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Way to start a shitstorm.

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Weezing!

From: Cresskill, NJ | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
IceHawk78
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posted 07-08-2010 02:59 PM      Profile for IceHawk78   Author's Homepage   Email IceHawk78   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I was just searching for crap connected to my old screen name, and this popped up.

I reread my old posts, though, and realized that, well, I didn't make a lick of sense.

tl;dr: I was retarded; atheism =/= religion

From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 07-08-2010 10:36 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Atheism could be a religion, but atheists will debate you on that until they're blue in the face.

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Weezing!

From: Cresskill, NJ | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
NAMBLAMAN
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posted 10-28-2010 12:33 AM      Profile for NAMBLAMAN   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The reason they'll debate is because by claiming it's a religion, you are apparently granting religions the logical baseline, and claiming that atheism is some separate thing, and that not believing in flying fairies qualifies as its own belief system.

I think, ultimately, that the word "religion" doesn't do a good enough job, and atheism doesn't qualify by most uses, but it does in the sense that you have to form a belief about "religious stuff"... though you have no such obligation regarding an opinion about, say, space dogs floating around Andromeda.

However, wherever you go in the world, you find people with some religious belief system, contrary and in opposition to all the other ones, which they've never had contact with.

Atheism is a technology that has to be developed.

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From: NAMBLANIA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 10-29-2010 03:59 AM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NAMBLAMAN: Atheism is a technology that has to be developed.

That would be quite insightful, if the word insightful meant "completely wrong and betraying a complete lack of understanding of the nature of reality".

From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 11-04-2010 09:22 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NAMBLAMAN, have you ever tried to think logically before? It seems to me that you suffer from what psychologists like to call "projection." Mentar/CG suffered from it long ago, and now you are taking his lead. In any case, atheism is a religion whether you like it or not.

[ 11-04-2010, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Face ]

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Weezing!

From: Cresskill, NJ | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
NAMBLAMAN
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posted 11-05-2010 04:54 AM      Profile for NAMBLAMAN   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How is atheism not a technology? Humans have some part of their brain that can generate responses absent physical stimulae, we have a capacity to believe and to perceive things that are fundamentally not real. I'm arguing that religions are technology that allows people to be led by this hook (and is hence useful for people looking to exploit it or service it, governments or organizations looking to manipulate, etc.), and that atheism is a similar and more advanced technology that addresses this hook scientifically.

Birds don't need technology to not believe in supernatural stuff, and neither do they need it to fly. Humans need it for both. The same person who today develops into a modern day atheist, instead raised in the past and living under ancestral conditions, lacks access to the philosophy and technology to explain his world. Might he believe that the world obeys physical laws that are far beyond his comprehension, and that there's nothing up there throwing lightning around? Maybe, but probably not. Lacking access to technology, he'd probably end up being a believer, as everyone around him would be certain of stuff. It's in his best interest to believe, and if he doesn't, he lacks the acquired language that he needs to articulate his reasons. Isn't there even a specific time in history when atheist texts became available and popular, and wasn't it recent, relatively?

[ 11-05-2010, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: NAMBLAMAN ]

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From: NAMBLANIA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 11-05-2010 07:48 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Atheism addresses what scientifically? Explain in some detail your assertion.

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Weezing!

From: Cresskill, NJ | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. K
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posted 11-06-2010 02:47 PM      Profile for Mr. K   Author's Homepage   Email Mr. K   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No special trick or tool is required to realize that horseshit is horseshit. Standing up to peer pressure is not a tech. I read no philosophical texts and did not employ the scientific method to realize my parents weren't telling me the truth about Santa Claus. I didn't have the wisdom of my elders. My elders were lying to me.

The exasperating foundation of your thinking is the notion that atheism has a fundamental similarity to religion. You keep trying to elevate its importance. Most atheists don't care or think much about religion or atheism. They don't use it as a prism through which to view the events of their lives. They don't primarily self-identify as atheists.

To revert momentarily into rant/dead horse mode...

...atheism's not a tool to accomplish anything or a means to an end. It's not a religion, a philosophy, a movement, or an organization. It has no cultural norms, texts, or common beliefs. There are no rules, no suggestions, no implications.

Religion involves stitching stories together to explain phenomena and create a rationale for the promotion of a particular culture. Atheism provides no explanations and promotes no behavior.

Celebrate Christmas, accept Communion, meditate, do shrooms, blow up abortion clinics, burn down churches, become a nihilist, humanist, Luddite, anarchist, cultural Jew, racist, vegan...whatever. It's not relevant.

It requires no comprehensive understanding of science and is neutral as to the pervasiveness or establishment of any given fantasy. It only requires disbelief in obvious horseshit.

From: Cinnabar Island | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Face
I invented cancer.
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posted 11-06-2010 05:03 PM      Profile for Face   Author's Homepage   Email Face   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, K, answer me this: do you kiss your family with that mouth?

By the way, if you want to answer me, go ahead. But simply mindlessly prattling on and on about things you think proves your points is not going to do any good. Rather, it just shows that you have a lot of time on your hands to vent, and will say and do anything that you think will do it for the cause.

I would really like an explanation of the closing of the Creationism and Evolution topics, too, but I probably won't get one. I know you didn't close it, but I think that most of you guys are just doing this all hate-on-Face charade for the hell of it. Just realize that I love each and every one of you. I thought from what I had posted awhile ago would more than merit a "justifiable" reason for it to stay open, but again, I don't retract what I had to say to anyone at all, minus the cussing. What I said was entirely within the realm of what I did in fact believe.

In any case, I have to say that atheism is not a reason for you to latch onto some form of escapism and I think that atheism is precisely that. That's what I think of atheism and you are more than welcome to give your opinions to me when you have the time. I want to say that I have heard plenty of arguments in favor of atheism and they all fall flat when closely examined.

[ 11-06-2010, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Face ]

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Weezing!

From: Cresskill, NJ | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
NAMBLAMAN
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posted 11-07-2010 05:06 AM      Profile for NAMBLAMAN   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Face:
So, K, answer me this: do you kiss your family with that mouth?

is kissing ur family a custom where u r from

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From: NAMBLANIA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged


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